Stan Lee on teen sidekicks

[zuludelta]

Lee has always frowned upon the idea of the "teen sidekick" from his early days at Marvel for various reasons (personally, I think some of it was motivated by an effort to dispel Fredric Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent premises).

In his recent Comic-Con International panel:

"I never liked teenage sidekicks. If I was a superhero, there's no way I'd hang out with a teenager. I'd get an adult girl, maybe."

I find it hilarious that he says "adult girl" instead of "woman."  :lol:

[AncientSpirit]

He may not have liked them ... but he sure used them.   Not sure if teenager Johnny Storm qualifies, since he was part of the Fantastic Four and not literally a sidekick ... but he served the exact same purpose that Robin did; to give the younger reader someone they could better identify with.

Same thing with Iceman of the original X-Men ...

And Rick Jones was definately a sidekick to the Hulk ...

This in no way is a criticism of Stan Lee, who's vision and imagination has provided me with pure comic book enjoyment for many decades now. 

But I'm just saying... you know, for the record and all ...

:P

[Previsionary]

this isn't the first time Stan has intentionally or unintentionally contradicted himself. "Who wants to be a superhero" comes to mind especially the time he said, "superheroes don't reveal their secret identities," flash to Fantastic Four. :P

[Uncle Yuan]

I'm also not sure I'm going to give Stan any real credit for bucking the side kick trend, as I think it was a plot device/theme whose time had really passed by the 60s.  With very few exceptions, most of the true side kicks (as in "junior superheroes") were a product of the 40s - Bucky, Robin, Speedy, Mary Marvel/Captain Marvel Jr etc.  The odd sidekick crops up a later, but by the early to mid 60s, when Stan is really hitting his stride, the era of the mini-me sidekick as superhero accessory was over.

[danhagen]

Stan was wise enough to know it should be "Spider-Man," not "Spider-Lad."

[zuludelta]

This in no way is a criticism of Stan Lee, who's vision and imagination has provided me with pure comic book enjoyment for many decades now. 

But I'm just saying... you know, for the record and all ...

:P

Yeah, I hope I didn't give people the impression that I was in any way viewing Lee's comments in a negative light.

Just wanted to get people talking about their own thoughts on teen sidekicks adventuring with adult superheroes.

With very few exceptions, most of the true side kicks (as in "junior superheroes") were a product of the 40s - Bucky, Robin, Speedy, Mary Marvel/Captain Marvel Jr etc.  The odd sidekick crops up a later, but by the early to mid 60s, when Stan is really hitting his stride, the era of the mini-me sidekick as superhero accessory was over.

Interesting point. Not too familiar with my Silver Age DC history, but when were Dick Grayson and Speedy allowed to mature (a least in the way they were drawn)? It might have been during the late 1960s, but I can't say for sure. Still, DC seems to always come back to the idea of re-introducing the teen sidekick even on the occasions that they allow them to mature (Dick Grayson becomes Nightwing, and then youngsters Jason Todd and eventually Tim Drake take up the Robin mantle, Roy becomes Arsenal, Mia takes his place as Speedy, etc.).

I think the "teen sidekick" phenomenon speaks to a larger creative difference between Marvel and DC, though, something that writer Steven Grant (who has done tons of work for editors at both companies) has been examining at length in his recent Permanent Damage columns at ComicBookResources. One of Grant's premises is that the DC creative and editorial ethos is more firmly rooted in the 1940s creative sensibility, one that is more "conservative" in certain respects, particularly with regards to changing something that's proven to be successful in the past. That may be the impetus as to why they stuck with the idea of teen sidekicks (which had been a big hit in the 1940s) even though they were falling out of favour as the comic book reading population started skewing older in the latter half of the 20th century.

[Uncle Yuan]

Many of the examples you listed are of established characters stepping away from their role as side kick.  Robin is a bit of a special case as he, and his relationship to Robin, are every bit as iconic as Batman himself.  The bit you cite from Grant tends to support my hypothesis of side kicks as golden age phenomena.  And as you point out ZD, it is also significant that DC has not really brought out a new sidekick role since the golden age (just new characters to fill existing roles), and certainly no side kick has been widely embraced by the readers since then.

[AncientSpirit]

Not sure if this is applicable to this conversation ... but it might be.   I'm not sure if Wonder Girl could be considered a side kick ... but the idea to taking a who bunch of sidekicks and turning them into the Teen Titans was a great and innovative idea on DC's part.   

Whilie I don't normally read Teen Titans, I must admit that the combination of Wonder Girl's romance with Conner Kent caught my attention .. and I read that magazine until they killed him off.  (A waste, in my opinion, of a great concept ... a Kal-el/Luther hybrid.)

So if Wonder Girl and Conner constitute sidekicks, then I think DC has created new sidekick roles recently that have resonated with readers.   (I even liked the way they created the friendship between Wonder Girl and Supergirl in TT, though I have no use for Supergirl otherwise.)

[danhagen]

Wonder Girl was originally a Superboy variation, of course - the younger version of the hero. But, through the weird illogic of Robert Kanigher, she became a separate person (as did Superboy, finally, come to think of it.).  The Teen Titans were the result of requests from JLA readers for what they called a "Junior Justice League."

[JKCarrier]

He may not have liked them ... but he sure used them.

He did, but his treatment was somewhat more realistic. Instead of being little paragons of virtue like Robin or Superboy, his teenagers tended to be kind of spazzy and annoying... the way real teenagers are.  ;) Especially in those early issues, Johnny Storm is about as far from the traditional "faithful sidekick" as you can get... he's always running off somewhere, and when he is around, he's causing trouble.

[doctorchallenger]

I am currentley writing a chapter of my dissertation on this very subject.  I tend to agree with ZD's hypothesis in his first post. 

Danhagen:

Wonder Girl was originally a Superboy variation, of course - the younger version of the hero. But, through the weird illogic of Robert Kanigher, she became a separate person (as did Superboy, finally, come to think of it.).  The Teen Titans were the result of requests from JLA readers for what they called a "Junior Justice League."

Could you site a source for this? It would be very helpful to me.

On Wonder Girl: This character has had a muddled history from the very beginning - it wasn't Kanigher that mader her into a seperate person, but Bob Haney when he created the Titans.  Back then, DC had no real editor in chief, and each editor had more or less exclusive control over the titles he was managing, and there was little communication between editors.  Part of the problem was the fact that there were several "Impossible Day" (or was that in Hawkman) stories in which Wonder Woman's incarnations from various periods in her life (Woman, Girl, Tot) would work together, along with Hipolyta on adventures.  This made it seem to those outside Kanigher's group as if Wonder Girl were a separate character. I can't recall exactly if it was Haney's decision ot the editor of Barve and Bold to throw Wonder Girl in the works, but it was Teen Titans that established the separate Wonder Girl character.  Kanigher did edit the Titans briefly, arund the time of the title his the 20 issue mark, which is the same time that a young Marv Wolfman wrote the origin story for WG.

I wouldn't call Human Torch or Iceman sidekicks.  Lee used their age to give these characters a degree of adolcecent obnoxiousness that their older counter parts did not have.  Johnny was definitely an equal member of the team from early on: In FF #2, it is his idea for him to infiltrate the skrulls, and he is successful in advocating for himself with his teammates to get the plan through.

Re ZD/Uncle yuan's point:

And as you point out ZD, it is also significant that DC has not really brought out a new sidekick role since the golden age (just new characters to fill existing roles)...

This is not entirely correct: Both Kid Flash and Aqualad were Silver age creations.  Kid Flash however did not work as closely with his adult counterpart. He was often presented in a backup story in the Flash titles.  I would say that Aqualad was the last true sidekick created.

I could go on and on, but I basically agree that it is rooted in Wertham's critique.

[danhagen]

Doc -
The suggestions about the "Junior Justice League," and DC's answers to those suggestions, appeared in the JLA Mailbag letter column.

[detourne_me]

hmm, do kid devil, ravager and miss martian constitute as sidekicks?

[Ajax]

I think Miss Martian constitutes a sick sick fetish on the part of the fans. My time on the internet opened my eyes to this fact.  :rolleyes:

[doctorchallenger]

hmm, do kid devil, ravager and miss martian constitute as sidekicks?

What follows is my opinion, for what ever that is worth...

Miss Martian - I don't know what fetishistic fantasies Miss Martian fulfils, but as she has never worked with her "mentor" (or at best only appeared with him a few select times) I would describe her more as a legacy character - similar to Stature in Young Avengers. 

Ravanger might be considered a sidekick, but I would make certain qualifications. First, the Ravanger concept (her brother) was distinctly independent of Deathstroke, created to be a copy  of his father.  The two did not really work together.  Rose herself has operated more as a character independent of her father than as one tied to him. However, she did briefly worked alongside Deathstroke, adopting the Ravanger guise.  Further, the coustume was changed to bear a closer resemblance to her father's in terms of color AND she gouged her eye out. Thus she became closely tied to the Deathstroke character in a manner consistant with the traditions of the sidekick.

Kid Devil , as I understand it, was kind of a sidekick wannabe, and wasn't really accepted by Blue Devil.  Still, he was essentially a junior copy of his mentor, created within the context of the Blue Devil title as a supporting character. So maybe I was wrong in conferring "last true sidekick" status to Aqualad

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can totally see the distinction between teen hero (Spider-Man, The original X-Men, Johnny Storm) and teen sidekick (Bucky, Robin, Toro, Sandy, Kid Flash, etc..ect...)...And I see Stan's point.

Prev, I don't get what's conflicting about Stan's statement about Super Heroes not revealing secret identities and the FF, though...The FF never really had secret identities, did they?  I thought the public knew who they were from the start, maybe even before (as Reed's spaceflight was a planned thing (they just snuck aboard and launched early), Sue was a former model/actress).

Dana

[Previsionary]

I can totally see the distinction between teen hero (Spider-Man, The original X-Men, Johnny Storm) and teen sidekick (Bucky, Robin, Toro, Sandy, Kid Flash, etc..ect...)...And I see Stan's point.

Prev, I don't get what's conflicting about Stan's statement about Super Heroes not revealing secret identities and the FF, though...The FF never really had secret identities, did they?  I thought the public knew who they were from the start, maybe even before (as Reed's spaceflight was a planned thing (they just snuck aboard and launched early), Sue was a former model/actress).

Dana

How is it not conflicting? The fact that their identities are well known and was out there from pretty much the start contradicts stan's, "Superheroes don't reveal their identities." He then went on about that for awhile and never acknowledge that one of his first superteams ID'ed themselves from the onset (they never cared and went to celebrity status). He didn't specify events or circumstances, he made a general statement and going by that alone, it's a contradiction on his part...unless the fan4 aren't superheroes. :P

Also, just to note, other heroes revealed their IDs under Stan (Peter), but it didn't usually last or wasn't taken seriously. ^_^

[danhagen]

Stan Lee was trying to defy super hero conventions and create something fresh when he came up with the FF. That's also why he initially discarded the costumes, which readers quickly demanded.
But as he's said in interviews, he was also attracted to the drama and excitement inherent in the secret identity motif, so his next heroes — the Hulk, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man, Daredevil, the X-Men, etc. — all had them.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I can totally see the distinction between teen hero (Spider-Man, The original X-Men, Johnny Storm) and teen sidekick (Bucky, Robin, Toro, Sandy, Kid Flash, etc..ect...)...And I see Stan's point.

Prev, I don't get what's conflicting about Stan's statement about Super Heroes not revealing secret identities and the FF, though...The FF never really had secret identities, did they?  I thought the public knew who they were from the start, maybe even before (as Reed's spaceflight was a planned thing (they just snuck aboard and launched early), Sue was a former model/actress).

Dana

How is it not conflicting? The fact that their identities are well known and was out there from pretty much the start contradicts stan's, "Superheroes don't reveal their identities." He then went on about that for awhile and never acknowledge that one of his first superteams ID'ed themselves from the onset (they never cared and went to celebrity status). He didn't specify events or circumstances, he made a general statement and going by that alone, it's a contradiction on his part...unless the fan4 aren't superheroes. :P

But technically, they didn't "reveal" their identities, they were known before their spaceflight and it was widely known they were changed by said spaceflight (due to the press).  I do think they are superheroes still, they're just known by their civilian IDs too (Like the original Doom Patrol, who were mostly well-known people before their various accidents...A group inspired by the FF, who were in turn...Inspired by the Challengers of the Unknown). 

Also, just to note, other heroes revealed their IDs under Stan (Peter), but it didn't usually last or wasn't taken seriously. ^_^

True...they were all mostly for story-telling drama, then reversed in some way (whether the villains that found out the heroes' identities got amnesia, got killed, lead to believe they were fooled/tricked, etc...).  I think Stan's point in his "Who Wants to Be A Superhero" statement was that Superheroes who have secret IDs should not reveal them.  The statement doesn't include the FF, if they never had or used Secret IDs (Reed and Sue later created secret IDs to give Franklin a more "Normal" up-bringing, but it didn't last long).