I'm disappointed

[doctorchallenger]

While this thread doesn't add anything new to the conversation, I am completely disappointed with the two major producers of superhero comics.  Captain America's death is just the latest in a long line of stupefying decisions.  civil War, Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis.  They seem to sell well, I guess.  I'm not disappointed for myself as much as I am for my son.  He's six, and I have cultivated a love for all things superheroish, like other fathers do with baseball or football.  Who knows if he will continue to follow in my footsteps, but I just can't see anything out there that I would let him buy within the mainstream universes. The TAS based JLU comic is great, and I am willing to allow Teen Tians Go, as it sports Todd Nauk art.  The Krypto, Legion and The Batman Cartoons are pretty good. But the mainstream is gone.  I know comics aren't just for kids anymore, but they aren't just for adults either. 

I guess its a kind of mourning for me, letting go of an old friend.  But part of the sadness for me comes from having lived through one of the great ages of the genre (The Bronze Age - I'm not that old), and believing that my son won't be so lucky.

[bredon7777]

I disagree completely.

I think the modern age of comics will outshine and outlast any other age, and when your son comes of proper age, I'm sure he will appreciate it.

You are correct that the mainstream universes arent for kids - but there's nothing wrong with that. They have their own comics line, and I would much rather have that then force a ..not a "dumbing down" per se ..but lowering the intensity of the stories told in the modern universe comics.

[BentonGrey]

"their own comic line?"  There is one half-way decent title out there that I would let my own child read, and that's JLU.   It's not even that great, but it IS clean.  So....where is this line of comics that kids can read?  'Cause, honestly, I'd like to know.  Like I've said before, if you want to revel in the worst of humanity in comics, then at least have the decency to take it "outside."  I mean, take it to a Vertigo or an "Ultimate," even though I don't like these things, if the internal rot of the comic industry was confined to those titles, I'd be alright with it.  I would love it if DC would go back to the multiverse thing and tell some halfway decent stories that don't involve sex, drugs, and unlimited gore.  Instead 'the modern age' is a dark age. Yes, there is something VERY wrong with the fact that mainstream comics are as dark, dirty, and plain out TERRIBLE as they are.  It ain't just kids that shouldn't read them.

I would LOVE to see stories with real development, I would LOVE to see characters actually go places, but we don't really see that.  We see characters fall from grace, and it's called compelling story telling.  What happened to the days when Batman actually grew old and retired to be replaced by Dick, when Clark Kent became editor of the Daily Planet?  No, the momentum of modern comic's universe is a false idol, it's an illusion.  We can't sell our books anymore, so let's grab this character and twist until he is only a travesty of what he once was, THAT is development!

I'm sorry, but you don't have to have all of the dross that's in modern comics to tell compelling stories.  Look at the early Astro City books, look at Justice, look at the old Batman and Robin Adventures comics.  Those are great books that tell REALLY compelling stories, but there's nothing in them that would make a parent blush to have their kids read them.  It's lazy, and it's indicative of a much wider epedimic of modern culture.  We've come to associate "adult" and "mature" with sleezy and violent.  Since when does being a mature person actually have anything to do with gratitious sex, drugs, and the darker side of humanity.  As far as I'm concerned maturity is about rising above those things, and mature stories are about complexity and character.  Mature HEROIC stories are about heroes gosh darn it!

Heroes that are sadly lacking in the modern world, in the news, in the leadership of nations or of peoples, and that is why it is so vital, so terribly necessary.  We need inspiration, not oppression, we need hope, not despair!  I don't know about you, but the world around me is dark enough, I would rather my heroes stood against the black waves, not be enveloped by the dim tides!

[UnfluffyBunny]

I grew up reading Judge Dredd, Darkness, Evil Ernie, Spawn, witchblade, that kinda stuff, and hey look I turned out fine :P
it's only the last 4 years that i've really gotten into the more mainstream stuff (I was a reader before but nowhere near as avid) and i'd consider alot of the stuff out there to be kinda care bear >_> but meh, oppinions go as oppinions do :P

[detourne_me]

i hear you there Syn.   
Read Invincible, Robin, Young Avengers, Runaways, madman, the atomics, anything published by America's Best, savage dragon, Flash, etc.  and i'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find something that you can't share with your kids.

as for an entire line thats kid friendly and isn't completely insulting for adults (nor bogged down in continuity)  take a look at the Marvel Adventures series (FF, Spider-man, Avengers) and ever Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.
I'm even excited to see, the next i think, issue of Marvel Adventures Avengers,  where the cast becomes all MODOCS  or something, and yeah the last letter is C for conquest, not killing!

[Dweomer Knight]

  It's lazy, and it's indicative of a much wider epedimic of modern culture.  We've come to associate "adult" and "mature" with sleezy and violent.  Since when does being a mature person actually have anything to do with gratitious sex, drugs, and the darker side of humanity.  As far as I'm concerned maturity is about rising above those things, and mature stories are about complexity and character.  Mature HEROIC stories are about heroes gosh darn it!

I agree completely with your post but this part in particular.  I work at a public high school in the LRC (library) and I interact with hundreds of teens every day; many of whom I bump into outside of work.  There's a lot of small, kind of dingy, style comic shops in my area that draws basically two crowds: the really young Yu-Gi-Oh! playing crowd and the comic buying crowd; mostly teens.  These teens (typically) are buying the more violent lines of DC/Marvel or the Indy stuff like Shi.  If you ask them why they buy these compared to "mainstream" titles (and I have, many times) the answer is fairly universal: they're cooler.  If you press for a more detailed explanation you get the "the stories are more mature" or some synonymous phrase to that effect.  I've told many teachers and staff to be careful about telling students to act more maturely.  Mature frequently doersn't mean the same thing to a student that it does to a teacher.  I'm involved in many Peer Mediation and Youth Leadership programs and I can say that, for many students whether comic-readers or not, "mature" means adult entertainment, pornography, glorified sex and violence, and the absence of having to be resposible to any type of authority figure.  This is also how they view being grown-up in general.  Many view high school and their early teen years as a form of semi-serfdom where they're forced to to things they don't want to do and have no freedom.  They look forward to being "grown-up" because they often associate that with absolute freedom ("Man, I can't wait till I'm 18 and no one can tell me what to do!").  Violent and sleazy comics are an escapism from the perceived bondage of high school and even earlier years.  These aren't my opinions, these are what hundreds and hundreds of teens have expressed themselves over my years in public education.  I agree that mature doesn't mean violent and sleazy; but to the kids it does.

DK

[Klauser]

While this thread doesn't add anything new to the conversation, I am completely disappointed with the two major producers of superhero comics.  Captain America's death is just the latest in a long line of stupefying decisions.  civil War, Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis.  They seem to sell well, I guess.  I'm not disappointed for myself as much as I am for my son.  He's six, and I have cultivated a love for all things superheroish, like other fathers do with baseball or football.  Who knows if he will continue to follow in my footsteps, but I just can't see anything out there that I would let him buy within the mainstream universes. The TAS based JLU comic is great, and I am willing to allow Teen Tians Go, as it sports Todd Nauk art.  The Krypto, Legion and The Batman Cartoons are pretty good. But the mainstream is gone.  I know comics aren't just for kids anymore, but they aren't just for adults either. 

I guess its a kind of mourning for me, letting go of an old friend.  But part of the sadness for me comes from having lived through one of the great ages of the genre (The Bronze Age - I'm not that old), and believing that my son won't be so lucky.

I hear ya, doc.

I'm one of many folks who frequent FR that have quit buying comics on a regular basis.  I won't get into the arguement over which comic age is better - I have my preferences and tastes and know that they are tempered by the era I grew up in.

I too tried to introduce my son into comics when he reached his early teen years.  I gave him the complete run of XMen Classic (reprints of the Xmen from 193 and later), Perez's run on Wonder Woman, Byrne's FF run, etc.  He really enjoyed reading them - and when they were done I nudged him into the local comics shop.

He tried about 4-5 titles based on the recommendations of some of the kids he knew there - and within about 3 months he quit.  When I asked him why he said the stories were too stupid or had too much drama.

I was disappointed of course - it was a stark reminder of how much the industry had changed and why I quit supporting it.

[MyndVizion]

Mature HEROIC stories are about heroes gosh darn it!

Heroes that are sadly lacking in the modern world, in the news, in the leadership of nations or of peoples, and that is why it is so vital, so terribly necessary.  We need inspiration, not oppression, we need hope, not despair!  I don't know about you, but the world around me is dark enough, I would rather my heroes stood against the black waves, not be enveloped by the dim tides!

I couldn't agree with you more.

[doctorchallenger]

I disagree completely.

I think the modern age of comics will outshine and outlast any other age, and when your son comes of proper age, I'm sure he will appreciate it.

You are correct that the mainstream universes arent for kids - but there's nothing wrong with that. They have their own comics line, and I would much rather have that then force a ..not a "dumbing down" per se ..but lowering the intensity of the stories told in the modern universe comics.

And you have every right to disagree. I am glad that the industry has staunch supporters who like their product, and who are continuing to pay good money to keep these companies afloat.  While the product they produce is not to my particular taste, I am glad that these characters, who I consider to be cultural icons as important as any developed in other media, continue to be published. 

I also agree their is nothing wrong with the decision to go the way they are going.  I do not morally condemn Marvel or DC.  However, it is a choice, and all choices have an opportunity cost.  While they garner coustomers in one target market, they lose them in others. 

You rightfully mention that both companies have developed line for younger readers (Marvel Adventures, Johhny DC (the imprint JLU is published within)), which I am glad to have available for my son.  But this is a tributary, not the mainstream.  I hate to come across as an old poop, but when I first started collecting the mainstream was it.  It serviced both adult and child audiences.  Now, one could argue that it may not have serviced either audience particularly well, being a compromise, and there is validity to that arguement.  But from my perspective, one of the outstanding achievements of the Bronze Age was the balance that was struck between the "demands" of the two markets.  The storytelling was more sophisticated, but still accessible to a younger audience.  I am completely comfortable with allowing my son to read stories from that era, with a few exceptions.  As important, I can read these stories today and still enjoy them, not in the same manner as I did as a child, but enjoy them nonetheless. 

It is correct to say there is nothing wrong with targeting the mainstream at more or less an adult audience, but it doesn't have to be a zero sum issue. It doesn't have to be all adults OR all children. I think more of a middle ground can be developed.

I think Benton and Klauser make good points in saing that the heroism seems to be lost, or least is very obscured by the adult-orientation.  My son sow a picture from Civil War, and asked me about it.  It was a difficult time, because he had trouble wrapping his head around the idea that Captain America and Iron Man were fighting because they didn't agree. To him heroes fight the villains.  He always asks me who's the bad guy of any given story.  And he asked me with regard to Civil War.  It was frustrating to me that I couldn't tell him.