Spoiler/Female Robin

[Outcast]

Too bad they had to kill off this character. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_%28comics%29 hmmm...something about a controversy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq9X_1L-d8A&NR=1 nice tribute.

[GhostMachine]

The problem I had with Spoiler's death is how it went down, because Leslie Tompkins coldly let her die as an example to Batman that kids shouldn't be fighting crime then fled to Africa and that was totally out of character (for Tompkins, that is). If she ever shows up in a comic again, I hope its either as a corpse or that the Joker or one of Batman's other enemies with a penchant for homicide gets hold of her and Batman is conveniently too late to save her.

I've heard that Tompkins' involvement was retconned during 52 or something else to explain that Tompkins didn't really let her die, but I don't know if that is true or not.

[detourne_me]

I've heard that too.
I'd prefer if DC made it canon that Leslie did screw up, and Batman then made a proper memorial for her (as Spoiler) in the Batcave.  although apparently there is a Spoiler memorial in Titans Tower, i think it should be in the Batcave.
She's a character thats been around for more than ten years, and was badly handled by the end of it.
But i did really enjoy War Games, so i'd prefer it if DC just acknowledged all of the out-of-character actions as extenuating circumstances due to the city being at war.

[zuludelta]

The controversy regarding her death was really much bigger than just the fans of the character feeling miffed at her treatment (as alluded to by the wikipedia article linked to in the original post) or a case of depictions of characters not fitting in neatly with previous continuity. At the time, then-assistant editor Valerie D'Orazio was being pretty vocal of the prevailing atmosphere of misogyny that she perceived in some of DC's books, and she felt that DC was using sensationalistic and graphic portrayals of female death and suffering to drive up sales of some of their superhero titles (this was around the time of Identity Crisis).   

[detourne_me]

butbutbut... theres a new batwoman.... and she's a lesbian too..... and ummm....;)


by the way, when's the next issue of all-star batman coming out ;)

[zuludelta]

butbutbut... theres a new batwoman.... and she's a lesbian too..... and ummm....;)

:lol: I think that the new lesbian Batwoman might have been created specifically created to counter the recent accusations of misogyny and lack of diversity being leveled at DC. It doesn't seem like they have any real plans to use her now that she's served her purpose of drawing media attention and making it look like DC is making an effort towards broadening the character types they draw from (the hastily announced mini-series has been "stealth canceled").

Still, you almost have to feel sorry for the DC editorial guys... it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Keep sticking to the same old superhero-as-a-patriarch formula and they're accused of reducing female characters to plot devices and objects of prurient interest, try to introduce a new female character and they're accused of tokenism.

I think what's missing is a sense of balance... many readers probably want a more diverse cast of characters in their superhero comics for various reasons (i.e., it's more representative of their own communities, they might feel more sympathetic to a character similar to themselves, etc.), but the introduction of female/Hispanic/Asian/homosexual/overweight/Muslim etc. characters shouldn't feel like it's being done to fill a quota or to satisfy some politically-correct notion that all groups should be represented in media, it should read organically and naturally as just another part of the plot/characterization, and for that to happen and for these characters to ring true, I think it should begin with the writers, artists, and editors acknowledging that these "types" are already embedded in the societies they try to recreate and portray in their comics.

A writer who thinks a minority superhero is "unusual" (for lack of a better term) will have a tendency to over-emphasize the character's "otherness" over any other salient character features, leading to tokenism and one-dimensional characters (see Rage from the 1990s New Warriors, Shang-Chi, the "gay" Rawhide Kid, etc.). Similarly, an artist who thinks that being overweight is always indicative of an individual's laziness and lack of self-discipline will have a tendency to instill those qualities in the large characters that he/she draws. A good way to see this is in various depictions of the Kingpin: artists who stick to the "fat man" stereotype frequently get Kingpin wrong (usually because of little details like the tilt of the eyebrows or his general posture) because he looks nothing like the driven, dedicated, almost mono-maniacal businessman and criminal mastermind that he is.             

All that being said, I think there is room for stereotyping and exaggeration of features in cartooning. One of the main aims of cartooning and caricature is to capture and communicate the important and memorable details of a character's features and I don't think there's any harm done if the visual "typing" is done in that spirit.

[Midnight]

...try to introduce a new female character and they're accused of tokenism.

And when they *do* introduce a well written, strong female character in her own series by a good writer who happens to be gay, the series doesn't sell and gets cancelled...

*SIGH*

[detourne_me]

which series are youy tsalking about Midnight?   is it Manhunter? is she gay?
the new quasar has some high aspirations...  i think they were trying to deal with too much too soon,  but its semi-reminiscent of the older cosmic comics where stories were more self contained.

[BentonGrey]

A problem that my wife has complained about is that whenever DC DOES have a strong female character (other than, say, Wonder Woman) that character is gay, like they don't know how to tell stories about women who are strong, but not masculine.

[Talavar]

I'm pretty sure the current Manhunter is a strong, female non-gay character, which are somewhat a rarity these days.

[The Hitman]

which series are youy tsalking about Midnight?   is it Manhunter? is she gay?

Can't speak for the man himself, but I think it might be "Gotham PD," where Renee Montoya first appeared, comic- wise.

[Midnight]

I'm pretty sure the current Manhunter is a strong, female non-gay character, which are somewhat a rarity these days.

The writer/creator of Manhunter, Marc Andreyko, is gay.

[Talavar]

I'm pretty sure the current Manhunter is a strong, female non-gay character, which are somewhat a rarity these days.

The writer/creator of Manhunter, Marc Andreyko, is gay.

Okay.  Manhunter isn't cancelled though, is it?  I thought it was coming back.

[Midnight]

I'm pretty sure the current Manhunter is a strong, female non-gay character, which are somewhat a rarity these days.

The writer/creator of Manhunter, Marc Andreyko, is gay.

Okay.  Manhunter isn't cancelled though, is it?  I thought it was coming back.

It was cancelled but was brought back for a final arc. It featured a Wonder Womand and Batman cameo, but that apparently didn't save it because there hasn't been a new issue in months.

[thalaw2]

A female, gay, Manhunter....oh my!

[Uncle Yuan]

Sigh.  No.  The writer of Manhunter is gay.

[thalaw2]

I picked up on that...I was making reference to a hero named Manhunter being Lesbian.  Come to think of it...if she was straight then it would probably rated adult only.