Mace/WP Tank - thoughts and suggestions

[Uncle Yuan]

I'm thinking of trying out both the new mace weapon options and the WP defensive set by rolling a Mace/WP tank.  I thought I heard something about them making some changes to the mace set to make it more - I dunno, whatever it wasn't before.  Any truth to this?

Also, how is WP as a defensive set?  More importantly, how is it as a primary power set?  Can it take tanking?  How many "required" vs. "skippable" powers are there?

Finally - is there some aweful/wonderful synergy between the two sets I should know about?  WP is considered to be a low END set, how is mace?

[BlueBard]

I've only got limited experience with Mace.  It seems to have what I'd call Moderate end drain, but you'd be better off studying the numbers in a hero creation tool to be sure.

[Midnight]

The knock on Mace is that it has low damage, and it's damage type is the most resisted in the game (S/L).

[Tortuga]

But all the doo-dads rock.

[Ephemeris]

Mace is fun, but it's a weak set.  Lots of knockback, which isn't necessarily good for a tank.  In PvP, squishies would laugh at my damage output... 

I'd say mace is slightly less endurance than most tanker sets, but you have to work harder to kill anything.  Any benefit gained by the lessened cost is lost by the extra attacks you need to make.  With WP, end shouldn't be a real issue.

[Uncle Yuan]

Mace is fun, but it's a weak set.  Lots of knockback, which isn't necessarily good for a tank.  In PvP, squishies would laugh at my damage output... 

I'd say mace is slightly less endurance than most tanker sets, but you have to work harder to kill anything.  Any benefit gained by the lessened cost is lost by the extra attacks you need to make.  With WP, end shouldn't be a real issue.

I'm OK with low-ish damage as long as I can do enough to hold agro.  I'm planning on him being more of a team-oriented tank, so I'm going to focus on agro management and survivability and leave the killing to the scrappers and blasters.

And quick advice for the n00b tanker, guys?

[El Condor]

Keep your camera view zoomed out and as perpendicular to the ground as possible.  Helps ya' keep track of your squishies and what the baddies are focused on.

Also, you might want to keep your LFT flag up most of the time.  It does sound like soloing with this guy will be.... tiresome!  :P

EC

BTW: I found WP to be great for tanking, even in the upper levels.  You get very good (just not godly) blanket defense and resistance, and the regen is usually amazing.  Your tier 9 defense is NOT a god-mode style protection, but your other primaries should serve you well enough (plus the crash is insignificant and won't take you out of battle).  You might look to bolster your primaries with IO sets, especially since you are focusing on being a meat-shield.

[Alaric]

Just want to say that my WP/WM Tanker- level 28 and counting- on Triumph soloes really well. Couldn' give much advice on one built for teaming, though.

[Alaric]

Lots of knockback, which isn't necessarily good for a tank. 

I think you're thinking of Battle axe, actually. War-Woman has the first 7 powers in the War Mace set, and only one of them ever causes any knockback- and that one's mostly a knock up power, that incidentally sometimes results in some knockback. The main special effect of the set is disorient/stun.

[Midnight]

The last two powers in War Mace have knockback. Seeing as how those would be WM's two highest damage attacks, those are probably the ones Ephy used and remember the most.

For the record, Battle Axe is predominantly knockdown with one knockup, and one knockback.

[Verfall]

And the fact disorient is a really bad effect when it's not paired with extreme damage like Energy Melee has. So not only do you get 3 Knockback attacks, but you get disorienting attacks without the damage to alleviate the annoying "disorient run" and your damage is highly resisted without the damage bonus stone gets nor rage which SS gets. There's a reason why the weapon sets for tanks were heavily avoided until they added weapon customization.

In fact, I'm willing to bet one focus of the weapon customization was to get people playing the ignored weapon sets so they can use the numbers to justify not having to change the notoriously broken sets. "Oh look, there are 500 more mace tankers than there were before, I guess we don't need to fix it since so many people find it perfectly fine." Just because your mace is now a shovel doesn't mean the set doesn't suck anymore.

But in the end, just be glad it's not ice melee  :thumbup:

[Ephemeris]

But in the end, just be glad it's not ice melee  :thumbup:

Bingo!

War mace has two single target attacks with a small chance for disorient, a taunt, a build up, a single target attack with knock-up, an AoE attack with a chance of disorient, a disorient attack, a single target (narrow cone) with knockback and a wide cone with knockback.

Baron Tundra using crowd control

[Uncle Yuan]

Does either the knock back or the disorient break agro?  I can see where the scatter from both is annoying from the AOE point of view, but do they decrease the Tanks overall damage mitigation?  Obviously grounded and disoriented foes can't hurt people and that's good, but if they recover and immediately turn their attentions to the squishies then there is a real problem with the special effects.  Otherwise it's a matter of play style.

Is the Taunt generated by Gauntlet damage linked, or is it simply yes/no?  How much does a tank's damage output contribute to holding agro?  Is this a concern with something like War Mace where damage is poorish?

[Verfall]

WP requires you to have 10 mobs around you for maximum damage mitigation. It is also much easier to hold aggro if mobs are nearby.

Knockback and the disorient "run away" animation mean you have to chase those mobs down or there is a chance they may drop aggro from you if your taunt effects wear off while they're a distance away. The taunt is damage linked, your higher damage powers provide a higher gauntlet effect.

So not only do macers contribute meaningless damage when compared to most of the other primaries, but its effects are detrimental to its aggro abilities, particularly sets like Willpower and Invul where knocking mobs away or having them stumble away from your auras means your are actually weaker than you were before.

A tank wants every mob standing next to him wailing on him. Anything that hinders that is a bad thing. This also includes Illusion Phantasms and energy blasters. I actually personally believe Mace is the weakest set. Ice melee at least has Ice Slick, which is the best damage mitigation power in all of the tanker secondaries, but again, I'm very defensive minded. Mace just has nothing to offer short of concept builds. Same for axe.

[Midnight]

I'm not sure, but I think that Castle hinted at some War Mace alterations in this thread

War Mace will NEVER have the single target DPS other sets have. It will have better AoE DPS than many sets, though.

And randomly; there's also a Dr. Mike sighting in that thread.  :blink:

[El Condor]

I also believe that activation times for Mace were already sped up in i11.  Is anyone else aware of that?

EC

[Uncle Yuan]

As I understand it activation and recharge were both sped up a touch, and the order of the powers shifted so that a third attack power is available sooner.

[Libbyator]

WP
     is quite good.  You won't be a Stone Tank, but noting is Stone except Stone.  You'll have trouble solo-ing an AV.  Health & Stamina aren't needed, but whoa if you get them.  There is no, "BANG! You're dead," moment.  No specific weakness, and resists Psi  I've read is, "better than any other set in the game."  RTTC works good for a Taunt aura, acts as protection + Debuff.  Overall it's Resistance, Def, and Regen.

Mace
    I'm afraid I can't comment on Mace except time after time I read how it's "weak,"


I made WP/Stone.  /Stone is good for Knockdowns and gives your Regen time.  /Stone is best for damage/control.  Good mitigation.  The attacks have a slower recharge but higher damage and better on End than Fire and Ice.