A night of successful gaming!

[Tortuga]

Thanks to Gday's generosity (gave me a couple decks and then some) and expertise my brother and I played a few fun games of VS last night.  We stuck with the Fantastic Four/Doom starter decks.  At one point we looked into creating decks with the X-Men/Morlocks cards Gday gave me, but were too confused by some of the possibilties.

In the first game, my brother annihilated me -- I used too many plot twists too early and therefore couldn't recruit anybody worthwhile later on.  In the end he won 28-0.  Ouch.

Next game was much closer.  He still won, but with a smaller margin of 4 to -6.

In the third match I was victorious with 9 to his -9.

I *think* we've got the basics figured out now.  So now there are a few things that we need to know before we try the XMen/Morlock decks.

We are unclear about Evasion as well as Energy (is that a card type?)  We are also not sure how to use Equipment cards.

That's the beginning of what we're unsure about -- I thought I'd start there.  Thanks in advance for the help.

Tortuga

[gdaybloke]

Glad to see you're trying it out!

First off, don't worry about Energy. Since the release of the X-Men expansion (cards with the id MXM on them), mutants can have one of three traits - energy, physical or mental - and there's a bunch of cards that play off of those traits. I think there was only a couple of cards I gave you that would refer to them (the character Hump, for example).

Evasion: Basically, you can voluntarilly stun your character. You still take stun damage, but there are a number of valid reasons, not the least of which is that the Morlocks have a bunch of plot twists and abilities that feed of it. The plus side is that characters who were stunned through Evasion AUTOMATICALLY recover at the start of the Recovery phase, so you know that character is going to be sticking around for the next turn to continue to feed your effects.

Equipment (one of my fave things): these are recruited in the same manner as a character and cost resource points accordingly - so, for example, if you have four resources on turn four, you can recruit up to four points worth of characters and equipment - so a 3-drop char and 1 1-drop equip.
Equipment is assigned to a character when recruited, and as a general rule stays there - gets KO'd when he does too. As a general rule, equipment can't be recruited onto concealed characters (though as always, there's exceptions). Most equipment grants bonuses to the character wearing/using it, though some have broader effects (eg, the Blackbird Blue gives all your characters Flight and an attack bonus)

Next! (*ding*)

[Tortuga]

Thanks Gday...the next is about building decks:

-What would be a minimum/maximum/average number of cards in a deck?
-What would be your usual ratio of characters, plot twists, locations, and equipment?

and...

-How often in a game do you get the point of having 7 resource cards so you can recruit your level 7 character?  The highest my brother and I ever got was a 6th level character and then the game was over.

-Let's say in one round, Invisible Woman (3), Sub Mariner (5) and Human Torch (5) are stunned.  I can only recover one stunned character.  Do I lose end cost for all those that have been stunned (13), or only those that I do not recover (let's say I recover Human Torch, so would I only lose 8 end)?

-I have two of the same Human Torch card in my hand, and I recruit one for 5 resource points.  Next round I have 6 resource points, but the only card worthwhile is a second Human Torch.  Does it cost me 5 resource points to power-up HT (making him 10/10)?  That seems like a lot of resource points for such a small buff.

Round Two over to you!  :P

[gdaybloke]

-What would be a minimum/maximum/average number of cards in a deck?

The minimum cards in a tourney legal deck is 60. No maximum, but the more you add to the deck beyond 60, the less chance you'll have of drawing any specific card. Stick as close to 60 as you can.

-What would be your usual ratio of characters, plot twists, locations, and equipment?

Usually you want about half the deck as characters, half as other stuff. Most decks will run 30-35 characters depending on their nature. Some will run less, but they're in the minority. As for a ratio of equipment, locations and plot twists, it depends on the deck. Some teams love equipment (Fan4 being the most guilty here), while others are all about locations (League of Assassins, Inhumans, Heralds of Galactus love their locations). If I had to slap an arbitrary ratio (which really, as I said, depends on the team), I'd say 20 Plot Twists, 8 locations, 2 equipment. Lightest on equipment, since a lot of teams really can't afford to spend resource points on things other than characters.

-How often in a game do you get the point of having 7 resource cards so you can recruit your level 7 character?  The highest my brother and I ever got was a 6th level character and then the game was over.

Most games will end around turns 6/7. That said, some decks aim for a kill around turn 5, while others are deliberately built to drag the game out to around turn 9 when they can drop a massive bomb character (like Galactus). 6-7 would be the average in casual play, I'd say.

-Let's say in one round, Invisible Woman (3), Sub Mariner (5) and Human Torch (5) are stunned.  I can only recover one stunned character.  Do I lose end cost for all those that have been stunned (13), or only those that I do not recover (let's say I recover Human Torch, so would I only lose 8 end)?

You lose Endurance for their cost when they become stunned. You don't lose any additional when they go to the KO pile if you choose not to recover them.
So, when Sue got stunned, you would have taken 3 + any breakthrough if you were defending.
When Sub Mariner got stunned, you would have taken 5 + any breakthrough if you were defending.
When Torch got stunned, you would have taken 3 + any breakthrough if you were defending.
As a general rule the loss would have happened in the combat phase, as that's when they most likely became stunned. Unless the card has an effect that states otherwise, you don't lose any additional when you choose which to recover.

-I have two of the same Human Torch card in my hand, and I recruit one for 5 resource points.  Next round I have 6 resource points, but the only card worthwhile is a second Human Torch.  Does it cost me 5 resource points to power-up HT (making him 10/10)?  That seems like a lot of resource points for such a small buff.

If you have a Torch in play and one in hand, you can't recruit the second without bouncing the first to the KO pile. Uniqueness check. Unless a charater is an Army character, or there's an effect in play allowing you to circumvent uniqueness, you cannot recruit a character when you already have another copy or another version of that character in play.

Powering up works differently than you think, I'm assuming.

When a character is in combat, you can discard a card with the same name from your hand to give the character +1/+1 for that combat only. They don't get a permanent boost from it (unless there's an effect that says otherwise, like 5-drop Spider-Man's). Powering up does not cost resource points, and cannot be done when a character is not attacking or defending.

Ding! Next!

[Dweomer Knight]

Since this game has been out awhile now, what would you recommend buying for just starting out assuming little to no previous knowledge of the game?  How much of a given faction do you need to buy to make a decent deck?  Are any factions considred easier/harder than others?  Are "older" cards still valid/useful?

DK

[gdaybloke]

Good questions, a zillion answers.

Easiest way to learn the game:
Download the online game from the link in this thread and work through the tutorials.

Pick up a starter deck if you can - I recommend the Fan4 vs Doom one or the more recent X-Men vs Brotherhood - to get to know the VERY basics if you don't want to do the download.

Best "jumping off" point right now would be the Hellboy Essential Collection. $40CAD (not sure $USD) for two 60-card decks, endurance trackers, a lithograph, deckboxes, and the most comprehensive rulebook to date.

Any one of those three options should get you a good basic grounding in the game, and the latter two will give you some good cards too.

How much of a given faction do you need to buy to make a decent deck?

Depends on what you want out of the game. Are you looking to be uber competitive, or just to have fun with a cool comic-themed game?

Some of the uber competitive decks out there run a real mix of stuff from all over the place; Others work primarilly with cards from one or two factions.

Personally, I like to play decks that focus on one, maybe two, teams. I don't tend to run decks with characters from all over the map... with the exception of my current Skrull deck. I had Rogue get up to 10 different team affiliations the other day.

Are any factions considred easier/harder than others?

Most certainly. Some teams have themes that are essentially straightforward, smack 'em in the face. Others run themes that require a very strong memory for card order, and combo's of four, five, or more cards.

As usual it barrels down to personal preference. I like a fairly straightforward deck myself, with a few twists. In comparison, a lot of Spud's decks have some positively brutal combos - if you can wrap your  head around them.

Are "older" cards still valid/useful?

Again, depends on what you want out of the game.

Organised Play (the official tourneys) run by "ages". The Age of a tourney determines what cards are legal - Golden Age is anything goes, Silver Age is the last eight expansions, Modern Age is the most recent four. As a general rule, the more recent the set, the more life you'll get out of it in terms of Organised Play before the cards are cycled out of the Silver Age by new expansions (which come out every three months).

If you're only out to play Casually, then hell yes, older cards are good. There's still a bunch of core cards from the very first Marvel Origins and DC Origins sets that are among the best cards out there.

If you can afford to, I'd suggest picking up a box from an expansion that has a couple of teams you like, and then letting us know what you still need. I know I have plenty of spares, so I could look at filling in gaps for you where possible. There's also trading online (though be warned, the best trading is generally done for more recent expansions).

Just for reference:

Marvel Origins: Fan4, Doom, X-Men, Brotherhood, Sentinels
DC Origins: Gotham Knights, Arkham Inmates, Teen Titans, League of Assassins
Web of Spider-Man: Spider-Friends, Sinister Syndicate
Man of Steel: Team Superman, Darkseid's Elite, Revenge Squad, New Gods
Marvel Knights: Marvel Knights, Crime Lords, Underworld, X-Statix
Green Lantern Corp: Green Lantern Corp, Emerald Enemies, Anti-Matter, Manhunters
Avengers: Avengers, Masters of Evil, Squadron Supreme, Thunderbolts
Justice League: JLA, JLI, Secret Society, Injustice Gang
X-Men: X-Men, Brotherhood, Morlocks, Hellfire Club
Infinite Crisis: JSA, Shadowpact, Checkmate,
Heralds of Galactus: Heralds, Inhumans, Kree, Doom
Legion of Super-Heroes: Legion, Future Foes, Villains United
Marvel Team-up: Spider-Friends, Sinister Syndicate, Defenders, Underworld

You'll notice that with the more recent sets (since X-Men), they've started refeaturing teams - this ensures that those teams are legal for Silver and Modern age, while their original versions are cycled back to Golden Age.

If you have any questions regarding a specific team or three, we can try and give you a basic idea of how they play.

[Dweomer Knight]

Well, back in the late summer/early fall I received some cards from a friend who was moving and getting out of the game.  I sorted them by group and it's clear he bought a smattering of many different factions.  I must have over 20 factions represented (though some by only a single card). 

I'm more interested in casual play than tourney play since there's no tourney action around here anyway.  Since play time will be infrequent I would prefer groups that are more straightforward; I'd never be able to remember or keep complex combo's straight.  I'm basically just looking for a fun comic-themed game to play.  I'd also like to collect at least 4 factions so I can loan decks to friends who don't have the game (which would be all of them).  It would be nice to have both Marvel and DC represented. 

I'm not big on the X-Men but that's only a minor thing.  The factions in Green Lantern Corps and Heralds look pretty cool.  Though I imagine older sets are harder to find that newer ones.

DK

[gdaybloke]

It's really easy to end up with a real mix of cards if you don't focus on a specific expansion.  Your friend probably bought mixed packs from all over the map, which while fun, doesn't help build a fully functioning deck.

If you don't care about competitive play and are just out for casual fun, then you're in luck. Thanks to the cycling competitive Ages, older expansions are less in demand, and hence cheaper if you track them down through online sources. You can find an entire booster box of many of the older expansions for $30 or less.

Example: Linky
More recent expansions are around the $50-60 mark, but you can get a box of the Avengers expansion for $18, Marvel Knights for $20, Green Lantern Corp for $30, JLA for $25...

The only expansion I wouldn't recommend is the Man Of Steel one. The quality of the set is pretty much down the toilet in terms of playability, etc.

Web of Spider-Man has the downside of only having two teams featured, but because of that very fact you've got a good chance of being able to build nicely playable decks for those two factions...

Of the cheaper sets I'd probably recommend the Avengers expansion if you were looking to buy a box. You can make quite a solid Avengers or Squadron deck using very few rares, and I can certainly help fill out any Masters of Evil holes you end you end up with...

Heralds isn't in the "cheaper" bracket yet, and while Green Lantern Corp has the GLC and Emerald Enemies, the other two teams (Anti-Matter and Manhunters) are a little lacking in oomph. That said, I play Anti-Matter and Manhunters and greatly enjoy both...

[Dweomer Knight]

Thankee much, good sir!

Those prices are actually much better than I was anticipating, even for the newer stuff.

Is there a lot of card duplication in factions that have been re-released?

In your opinion, which factions are least suited to a more straight forward play style (or are harder to make that way)?

Just out of curiosity, what makes the Man of Steel set so bad?  Overpowered?  Underpowered?  Boring?

DK

[gdaybloke]

There's no duplication in the re-releases - all new cards, all now stats and combos etc. There'll be new versions of characters (there's about a ten Spider-Man's out there now), but no actual reprints.

You'll only get reprints in some of the starter decks. The Fan4 starter, for example, includes reprints of some of the older Fan4 stuff, with new art. The Hellboy set includes reprints of two equipment pieces and a couple of plot twists, again with new art.

In terms of complicated decks, it's easier to list the more straightforward ones, I think. The ones that immediately come to mind are Fantastic Four and Brotherhood - both can put together a solid, straightforward beat-down. On the other side of the coin you get decks like Arkham Inmates that are all over the bloody map in terms of synergy.

List off a couple of teams you're potentially interested in, and we can look at giving you a team overview in a nutshell.

As for the Man Of Steel set, it just ended up being underpowered and lacking in general. Web of Spider-Man was a little underpowered as well, but made up for it with some cool stuff. The problem that both sets endured was that they introduced new mechanics, but didn't have enough oomph in the expansions to make a workable deck using those new mechanics.

For example, Web of Spider-Man introduced one of my favourite mechanics, Evasion. It wasn't until the X-Men set, however, that they came out with a deck that could put forward a solid showing using the mechanic (Morlocks).

Likewise, Man of Steel introduced the Cosmic mechanic, but it wasn't until the Heralds of Galactus and Legion of Superheroes expansions that we saw decks that could use it effectively and reliably.

[captainspud]

Actually, UDE has stated that the real reason MSM and DSM blew was that they were a little scared of making powerful cards. They wanted to avoid power creep, so they intentionally made a set with "subtle" power instead of outright strong cards. Unfortunately, this means that the Origins cards rolled right over the newer ones, hence why subsequent sets started to have cards that matched or exceeded Origins card power.

And since I'm avoiding doing real work, here's every team in the game, what set(s) you'll find it featured in, an "approachability" rating of 1-3 stars (3 being simple, 1 being complex), and [what their theme is].

EDIT: Bah, it broke my tabbing. Ignore the rectangles, they're tabs. Stupid Quattro board...  :banghead:

Code Select Expand


Anti-Matter (DGL) ** [Hidden characters]
Arkham Inmates (DOR,) ** [Exhausting + KOing]
Avengers (MAV) *** [Beats, team attacking]
Brotherhood (MOR,MXM) *** [Beats, reservist]
Checkmate (DCR) * [Locations]
Crime Lords (MMK) ** [Defending while reinforced]
Crisis (DCR) * [Team-up characters, good "splashes"]
Darkseid's Elite (DSM,DLS) ** [Resource row control, burn+ko]
Doom (MOR,MHG) * [Best control deck, very complex]
Emerald Enemies (DGL) ** [Beats, swarm, willpower]
Fantastic Four (MOR,MHG) *** [Beats, equipment, large characters]
Fearsome Five (DOR) * [Team-up characters]
Future Foes (DLS) ** [Discard]
Gotham Knights (DOR) ** [Negation, equipment, card draw]
Green Lantern (DGL) ** [Reinforce/Recover, Willpower]
Hellfire Club (MXM) * [One huge visible guy]
Heralds of Galactus (MHG) ** [Cosmic, stall to Big G]
Infinity Watch (MHG) * [Team-up characters]
Inhumans (MHG) ** [Beats, cosmic, hidden characters]
Injustice Gang (DJL) * [Control deck, massive card draw for both players]
JLA (DJL) *** [Beats, powering up]
JLI (DJL) ** [Beats, cap at 4 resources]
JSA (DCR) ** [Exhausted characters on your side]
Kang (MAV) * [Control]
Kree (MHG) * [Spam out characters]
League of Assassins (DOR) * [Control, locations, KOing]
Legionnaires (DLS) ** [Cosmic]
Manhunters (DGL) ** [Spam out army characters]
Marvel Defenders (MTU) ** [Beats, Pump up one big attacker]
Marvel Knights (MMK) *** [Beats, KO effects]
Masters of Evil (MAV) *** [Beats, swarm, pay resource points]
Morlocks (MXM) *** [Beats, evasion mechanic]
Negative Zone (MOR,MHG) * [Team-up characters, free stuns+KOs]
New Gods (DSM) ** [Cosmic mechanic, specialize in sucking]
Revenge Squad (DSM) ** [Beats, ongoing plot twists]
Secret Six (DCR) * [Instant-win deck with weird strategy]
Secret Society (DCR) *** [Beats, KO'd pile manipulation]
Sentinels (MOR) *** [Army guys]
Shadowpact (DCR) * [Hover at dangerously low endurance]
Sinister Syndicate (MSM,MTU) *** [Beats, swarm, resource KO]
Skrulls (MOR,MHG) ** [Gains power by teaming up]
Spider-Friends (MSM,MTU) *** [Stall/Exhaustion effects]
Squadron Supreme (MAV) ** [Beats, no breakthrough, no cards in hand]
Team Superman (DSM) ** [Good at defending, protecting weak guys]
Teen Titans (DOR,DLS) ** [Team attack, stupid-complex combos]
Thunderbolts (MAV) *** [Beats, "I get huge guy, you get bonus"]
Underworld (MMK,MTU) ** [Beats, hidden guys, KO'd pile manipulation]
Villains United (DCR) ** [Beats, bounce guys to hand]
Wild Pack (MTU) *** [Great at teaming up and filling holes in decks]
X-Men (MOR,MXM) *** [Recovery, team attacking, attacking bigger guys]
X-Statix (MMK) * [Only having one huge guy on the board]

<Unaffiliated> (all sets)  * [No hard theme, but ways to make your attackers huge]


[gdaybloke]

Nice to see you trying to help out the n00bs, Spuddly.. heh. I may not agree with all of your ratings, but the essence is there. Thanks for taking the time to type that out.

[captainspud]

Yeah, but you're terrible at VS, so your opinion doesn't count.

:mellow:

[gdaybloke]

This from the guy who scooped on turn two to Anti-Matter (and yes, you're never going to live that down).

Besides, I have no problem acknowledging that you're better at VS than I am. I might become better if I stop playing goofy decks, but what the heck, I'm having fun.

[captainspud]

*lights cigar*

*leans back in high-backed chair*

*smiles smugly*

[Dweomer Knight]

While in Dayton recently I was able to pick up a Green Lantern booster box at 75% off.  I haven't had a chance to go through the cards yet.  If I were to pick up other sets I would go with Avengers (all the teams included are, at least conceptually, interesting to me) and Justice League (for more or less the same reason).  After that I would probably lean towards Marvel Knights (for the Marvel Knights in particular) and Marvel Team-Up (especially for the Defenders).  After that I would probably go for the Heralds and the JSA.  I guess that didn't really narrow things down a whole lot did it?

I long ago grew weary of the whole mutant thing so "X-whatever" concepts I'm slightly biased against even though, individually, many of the characters are pretty cool.

DK