Why Superman can't stand up to Captain Marvel

[Spe-Dog]

Ok...Spe's on his soapbox again.  Much like Carravaggio, I too am MORE than a little tired of this for the same reason.  Not one month goes by that I don't have this debate with someone on a message board or in the comic shop.  I've only been collecting for 25 years, and I'd hate to think how fed up even older fans are by this.  You mention Thor, Captain Marvel, Silver Surfer, even the Sentry.  All of whom are either in or above Superman's power class.  Why does EVERYONE have to take pot shots at Superman?  I know he is the poster boy of powerhouses in the genre, but this dead horse has been beat into the ground, dug up, flogged, incinerated, scattered, reassembled, cloned, and then beat to death again.  You wanna be alternative?  You really wanna, fanboy?  Then how about post on who could take out Sentry or Thor?  Oh, that's right, no one does that.  You only show how cool you are if you bash the icons, and then buy a pile of Wolverine and Ultimate books, I forgot.  Thor, Sentry, heck, even Hulk could do something in a book that is WELL beyond the norm for them and it's accepted.  Sentry has been built up to be as powerful possibly as the Silver Age version of Superman and the fans think that is AWESOME.  However, by contrast, Superman displays any power levels close to the silver age or just comes off as powerful in an issue or story arc and the naysayers cry foul.  Why is it okay for a Mr. Majestic, Captain Marvel, Thor, or ANYONE able to be powerful and cool, but not Superman?  Well, I have the answer: Super-Stigma.  It's getting on my nerves and DC is not helping any.  I've seen a real rise in this stuff since all the Silver Age stuff has been added back into the mythos of late.  Nostalgia is nice kids, but lets all move on to the future and write new stories instead of spending all our time trying to add back a plethora of garbage back into Superman, huh?  The debate is not raised against Superman the character, but raised against the Superman stereotype-which the character really isn't anymore-but is fast becoming again with the last Crisis and the guiding hand of Dan Didio.  Everything old is still old, and it has it's place: in the past.  Perhaps that is the biggest reason: stagnation.  Just about all the other characters have evolved and changed over time, but even when changes are promised, DC usually goes right back to business as usual wth the character of Superman.  The next time I hear a writer or artist on one of Supes's titles say something like "I don't know why more people don't think the character is cool", they need look no further than themselves.

[Revenant]

Well I am more than a little tired of Wonder Woman being depicted as the victim of a crazed Superman in parallel universes (he strangles her with her own lasso in S/B... he apparently gouged out her eye and then killed her recently in an alternate future... )

Diana beat a mind controlled Supes, but she didn't really, because he was about to smear her again if she hadn't cut him and offed Max Lord.  "Fanboys" of Supes are still arguning that he KOed her in outer space and only the heat of re-entry woke her up, therefore he won the fight.  Her inner monologue clinched it when she said to herself that she "can't beat him."

[BentonGrey]

Well, and now, don't jump all over me for this....but I don't really see how she COULD beat him.  I mean, she could hurt him, but he's stronger, MUCH faster, and much more durable.  I'm not saying this to spite anyone, as I am perfectly open to any reasonable explainations of a way around this, it's just that I can't think of any.

[Revenant]

Yeah she is slightly less strong than him, and he invulnerability is due to the bracelets and isn't as high as his.  She makes up for it with the warrior training and her gear.  I'd rate them as evenly matched in a fight.

But if there actually is a mandate from DC that no other hero should beat Superman in a fight, then that is one "forth wall" that I can't suspend my disbelief past. 

The original script for that Sacrifice fight scene had Diana clearly triumphing over the mind-controlled Supes.  Editors changed it so Superman's fans would not have to see him beaten.  Mind you, he was being mind-controlled so it wouldn't be a true battle.  But the script was changed nonetheless.  Now it's a very unclear victory for Diana, but the escape route was killing Max Lord.  An act which still plagues her and angered many of her fans.  Having been a fan since the Silver Age, I am of the opinion that there is always another way.  What Wonder Woman was depicted as doing looked like a cop-out, after a fight with Superman where she admitted he was her superior.  If she is second only to Superman in power, that means nobody is his equal.  What I'm getting at is, poor writing decisions made the story unsatisfactory when it had the potential to be great.

What supervillain in their right mind would have chosen that career in the DCU? 

[stumpy]

I like Wonder Woman and thought that, in the post-(1985)Crisis DCU, she was pretty close to Superman in battle, if things were left to fisticuffs. Once you take his other powers into account, he really is too much of a tank mage to beat.

However, it's interesting to me that one of the main complaints people have in this thread (and the many that have come before) is that the writers are inconsistent in defining and using the characters' powers. Yet here there is a complaint that DC may have a mandate that no other hero beats Superman (presumably in a ceteris paribus situation). But, I think that such a mandate (if there is one) may be an effort at consistency. I'll admit that it shows obvious favoritism to Superman, but he is the flagship hero for DC, so what should we expect? It would be a bad idea to have a rigid pecking order (that A always beats B who always beats C and so on), but I at least respect that they are making an effort not to have every random chump trash Superman when the need for a plot device arises. How many people has Wolverine taken down when, realistically, there is just no way?

BTW, I didn't want to wade in to the earlier re-tread of the Superman v. Magic discussion, but the mere fact that Wonder Woman, who is magical from the get-go (unless I am misreading the made-from-clay deal) can't totally whomp Superman means that not all magical things do damage that is strictly magical, even if they themselves are magical or of magical origin. That is, IMO, a factor that the Thorshippers and so on might want to take into account.

[Talavar]

I'm okay with Superman having no equal; in fact, I kind of like it.  It's not like his close to peers in the DC universe are that far behind him, like Wonder Woman, J'onn, Capt. Marvel, the Flash or Green Lanterns.  I mean, each member of the classic Justice League, excepting Batman and Aquaman, are freakin' ridiculous.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I mean, each member of the classic Justice League, excepting Batman and Aquaman, are freakin' ridiculous.

Actually, seeing that Batman can figure out an answer to any problem, and seems to be a better expert on anything than all the greatest experts in the world combined, besides mastering every physical discipline known, I thinking he belongs in that category too.

[Protomorph]

At the end of the day, my only real beef is with bad writing.

I actually don't have any problem with the notion that magical atacks do full damage to Superman's ridiculous endurance. But, many people are of the opinion that magical attacks render him a mere human. and THAT is at the core of the issue.

However, I would love for Sentry to actually have some meaningful, heroic adventures that didn't devolve into his being a basket case. I like the character, and I'd like them to actually DO something with him.


Here's a quick vs: Superman vs Sentry.

It'd last about 6 seconds.

"I'm the Man of Steel"
"I have the power of a thousand exploding suns"
"Hey, you power me!"



:D

[Talavar]

At the end of the day, my only real beef is with bad writing.

I actually don't have any problem with the notion that magical atacks do full damage to Superman's ridiculous endurance. But, many people are of the opinion that magical attacks render him a mere human. and THAT is at the core of the issue.

However, I would love for Sentry to actually have some meaningful, heroic adventures that didn't devolve into his being a basket case. I like the character, and I'd like them to actually DO something with him.


Here's a quick vs: Superman vs Sentry.

It'd last about 6 seconds.

"I'm the Man of Steel"
"I have the power of a thousand exploding suns"
"Hey, you power me!"



:D

Actually I think it'd be like:

"Hey, I'm the Sentry.  What's this, a notice from Superman's lawyers to cease and desist?  Aww, nuts...."

[thanoson]

"I'm the Man of Steel"
"I have the power of a thousand exploding suns"
"Hey, you power me!"



:D

"No, they're red suns."
"Ohh, I'm boned!"

[herodad1]

ive never been a big dc fan and i'm not that crazy about superman because of his icon status.theyve made him too super.to my limited knowledge theyve never really explained how he can do so many "super" things and be 6'2",240lbs. i guess all youve got to do is say he's an alien and that explains everything.superman could be a better character if dc hadnt dug themselves in a hole with him.he only beat hulk and thor out of popularity.john byrnes superman was the best yet.if a man can move planets why does he need a job?wipe out all crime in a month and then go on vacation.do aliens take vacations?

[GhostMachine]

I agree with you to a point, herodad. Superman was never my favorite hero because he was made out to be too powerful. I mean, when you've got him actually pushing around planets, that's too over the top. When Byrne depowered Superman in Man of Steel, I actually started to like the character more, but since then it seems like he's been powered up again to be over the top once more, but not quite to the extreme that he was pre-Crisis.

As for the comments about Batman that cat made....yeah, I also agree with that. Batman is my favorite hero, but for the past decade+, he's been written as if he's fully capable of taking down almost anyone....even beings who would defeat him in about three seconds in a normal situation......if he has time to plan for it, and his detective skills are portrayed almost as outrageous as pre-Crisis Supes' strength. The physical discipline thing I don't agree with, though; Batman's always been pretty hard to defeat in combat, and its long been established that he's one of the best fighters in the DCU. There are only maybe a handful of fighters more skilled than him, like Lady Shiva. He's also been an expert escape artist for a long time, as well, and that long pre-dates the creation of Mister Miracle.

One ability I don't think has been used in a long time is his ability to go into a coma-like state that can fool people into thinking he's dead by slowing his heartbeat and respiration. Had a comic that came with a record back in the 70's where he did that.

I don't care to comment about Wonder Woman vs. Superman, except to say that I'd give Diana the edge in combat skills easily.

As for Superman vs. Captain Marvel, I see it as this:

Captain Marvel is more or less a rip-off of Superman; DC even sued Fawcett over it and won, which is why the Marvel books stopped being published. Originals always defeat rip-offs.

Who's more popular? Superman. Superman was originally owned by DC, Captain Marvel wasn't. If Marvel wins a fight against Superman, you can bet he's going to get pwned during the rematch or Superman threw the fight for some reason.

I don't know how it is currently, with all the reboots and retconning, but the simple fact is that Captain Marvel is a kid who turns into a superhero, and that's not only his weakness because of the fact he's helpless as Billy Batson and can possibly be tricked into turning back into BB, but because he isn't really a different person as Marvel, he's more naive amongst other things.

[thanoson]

I don't know about bats being the best fighter around. There was a website showing a lot of just street thugs pawning Bats with lefts and rights. Not to mention other villains such as Bane and Deathstroke that could whoop him up.

As to Supes, he is way too powerful for my liking. The Batman/Superman where he disentegrated around 40 Doomsday clones with a wide beam x-ray vision blast pretty much ended my taste for him. I did like the 1st few issues of Man of Steel when it seemed like he was getting paid back for 40 years of uberness by villains kicking the tar out of him.

This is why I loved Superboy Prime. He was someone that Supes and the rest of everyone else could not easily dispatch. The quick little fight with Black Adam sealed it for me.
Black Adam "It's magic. It stings huh?"
Superboy Prime "Actually, no."
Or something like that.

Ooh, that's a good argument for the magic vs Supes thing. Black Adam specifically thought that his being magical of nature was going to affect Superboy Prime because he knew that would affect Supes that way. Just, SP was not of this reality and a bit more uber than he was expecting.

[GhostMachine]

I don't know about bats being the best fighter around. There was a website showing a lot of just street thugs pawning Bats with lefts and rights. Not to mention other villains such as Bane and Deathstroke that could whoop him up.

As to Supes, he is way too powerful for my liking. The Batman/Superman where he disentegrated around 40 Doomsday clones with a wide beam x-ray vision blast pretty much ended my taste for him. I did like the 1st few issues of Man of Steel when it seemed like he was getting paid back for 40 years of uberness by villains kicking the tar out of him.

This is why I loved Superboy Prime. He was someone that Supes and the rest of everyone else could not easily dispatch. The quick little fight with Black Adam sealed it for me.
Black Adam "It's magic. It stings huh?"
Superboy Prime "Actually, no."
Or something like that.

Ooh, that's a good argument for the magic vs Supes thing. Black Adam specifically thought that his being magical of nature was going to affect Superboy Prime because he knew that would affect Supes that way. Just, SP was not of this reality and a bit more uber than he was expecting.

To be fair, Batman being overwhelmed by a lot of street thugs would be realistic, depending on the amount of them. Because even the best fighter in the world isn't going to win....or at least win easily.....if attacked by a dozen people at once. However......

When Bane defeated Batman, he was still tired from fighting a bunch of criminals and hadn't had any sleep for several days. There's no way he would have defeated a freshly rested Batman as easily as he did, and no way he'd have managed to break Batman's back in a situation like that even if he did win.

Deathstroke beating up Batman might be reasonable due to Deathstroke's training and powers. However, I still say that Deathstroke defeating the entire JLA that one time was a load of crap. Kyle and Wally were badly written during that, and about the only JLAer I could see him taking out before the others handed him his head would be Green Arrow.

Oh, and if the rumor about 52 is true, then Superboy-Prime won't really be all that much of a threat if he ever escapes.

[lugaru]

ive never been a big dc fan and i'm not that crazy about superman because of his icon status.theyve made him too super.to my limited knowledge theyve never really explained how he can do so many "super" things and be 6'2",240lbs. i guess all youve got to do is say he's an alien and that explains everything.superman could be a better character if dc hadnt dug themselves in a hole with him.he only beat hulk and thor out of popularity.john byrnes superman was the best yet.if a man can move planets why does he need a job?wipe out all crime in a month and then go on vacation.do aliens take vacations?

That's why I enjoy the Mark Millton SUPREME POWER hyperion a lot. A lot of people complained about the comic (people talk a lot! Swearing and nudity!) but it is one of the most believable supermen out there. At first his powers are limited to what they are being used for... he could destroy entire countries but he is used to take out enemy tanks and strategic weapons.

Latter Mark free's himself but he just has no clue who the badguys are which makes sense. He was raised to believe that russia and china were the badguys but after maturing (and being betrayed by his country) that just dosent ring true to him anymore. Everyone seems like they have an agenda and they are trying to manipulate him. And he is an alien, and he is lonely. Particularly cool is when he decides that he can go anywhere he wants and do anything he wants, that money and such are no longer an issue because nobody can stop him, he is simply above human rules and law.

Again, this is writing superman WITH HINDSIGHT and I am not saying it is a superior product, but it is really great.

[stumpy]

to my limited knowledge theyve never really explained how he can do so many "super" things and be 6'2",240lbs. i guess all youve got to do is say he's an alien and that explains everything.

:huh:

Of all the legitimate criticisms one might have, this is one of the weakest gripes about Superman I've ever heard.

The explanation is that he's spent decades absorbing yellow solar energy. Does it pass scientific muster? Of course not, just like the explanations for Spider-Man, Green Lantern, or Mr. Fantastic. But, your complaint is that Superman isn't physically big enough?!? How silly is that? If he were physically big enough to do the things he does, he wouldn't be super strong. He would just be a giant with normal strength for his size. I mean, by the same logic one could complain, "The Hulk has never been explained because he's smaller than an elephant and an elephant can't lift the stuff that he does. Oh, that's right: gamma ray mutation. I guess that explains everything." That's no less valid than the alien complaint. The whole point of super strength is that is more strength than would be explained by the standard skeletal musculature.

Yeesh.

:banghead:

john byrnes superman was the best yet.

<grumble>

[Revenant]

How does Superman logically push a planet around?  I mean , I can see how he can lift a tank.  He has a form of telekenisis that envelopes the object.  Realistically, the pressure that his hands put on the underside of the object should push right through it, especially if he's trying to throw the tank.  But his TK would apply the force over a greater area.

But a planet?  He has to overcome the mass of the object, and a planet might not be dense enough to keep its shape while said pressure is being applied over such a small area (basically his handprints)

[stumpy]

I didn't defend the physics of planet-pushing. I'm just saying that the problem with it is not that Superman is six-two, two-forty.

And, as long as we're at it  ;), if you believe the TK can keep a tank or a ship or a building from coming apart, there is no reason it couldn't keep a planet from deforming. It's just a larger application of the same idea.

In the Silver Age days, my issue with the planet pushing wasn't whether Superman was powerful enough to do it. It's never made sense that there is a part of the Earth's surface rigid enough to withstand that mechanical stress, of course. Another big problem, believability-wise, is that pushing a planet out of it's orbit would cause catastrophic destruction on the P-Tr extinction scale and make the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami look like a Sunday afternoon haircut.  :blink:

But, it's a comic book. If I am going to give a pass to Norse gods, flying Amazon warrior princesses, and every imaginable variety of physics-defying beneficial mutation, then I can bite my tongue on this, too.

[Revenant]

I agree, his size shouldn't really have anything to do with the physics involved.  I just wasn't sure if there was a different explanation given aside for the TK field. 

For instance, in a JLA story, Superman, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman (and possibly others, can't remember) were able to push a planet-sized object, with Diana roping it with the lasso.  Supes may have an excuse, but the lasso would have cut a swath right through the planet if it were pulled with enough force.

Ehh, comic books!  Can't live with 'em, can't live widdout 'em.

[Talavar]

Modern Superman may have experienced a lot of power creep since the Man of Steel reboot, but he's certainly not back at planet-pushing levels.  I'm not really sure that DC is still using the TK explanation for Superman's strength.  That time in Superman/Batman where Supes incinerated a bunch of Doomsday clones with wide-angle heat vision I justify by assuming they weren't as powerful as the original Doomsday (and that Superman/Batman is generally poorly written in some respects).

I like Superman being extremely powerful (though no stupid Silver-age, made up for one use powers), but it does seem to be more difficult for writers to then write good Superman stories.  They do exist though; Superman just needs to be given a problem he can't punch his way out of.  If the story requires de-powering Superman to make it compelling, don't write that story for Superman.  I also dislike the over-reliance on kryptonite (especially on Smallville, but let's not get into that here), it's lazy writing to throw kryptonite at Superman all of the time.  As to red, black, blue and gold kryptonites, they should all get locked in a box, that box dropped in a volcano, the planet that volcano is on should get eaten by Galactus, and the universe that Galactus exists in should be written out of ever existing by a crisis of infinite proportions.  Damn, I hate the other colours of kryptonite.

The argument that because Superman is extremely difficult to harm makes his stories less interesting, because you know he's not in danger is a silly one to me, since you know 98% of the time that whatever hero of whatever comic you're reading isn't going to die or lose.  If you really think, "oh, this month they're going to kill off Batman!" you need help that I can't give you.

[UnkoMan]

What the... you people don't like Silver-Age Superman? I thought that was when he was at his best.

I love it when Superman has super-everything. Not just physical powers either, but his super-computer brain and all that crap. That's the Superman I would rather read about. Superman is this incredible omnipotent figure. He can just do anything he dang well wants... but he decides to be good.

His most powerful... powers? Super-Restraint and Super-Morality.

But at the same time, I still like to see Captain Marvel kick his arse around a bit. And J'Onn.

As for explaining powers, holy cow guys, it's just comics. I'm not the only one who still loves wonder for wonder's sake, am I?

[thanoson]

No, my batman website showed Batman in various fights with just ordinary thugs. Like one or two maybe. Punching him silly. Not like 15 of them. And Deathstroke and Taskmaster would laugh at 15 guys coming at him. So would Cap. He has been shown to not be as good as a fighter than they say he is. Even hal Jordan with his limited fighting skills coldcocked him. Ollie did too BEFORE he got the uber training. I see Ollie as probably being a better fighter than Bats now.

On that Superman Doomsday thing, the clones were still powerful enough to kill Amazons. That means they were not slouches. I don't buy the eye beam thing for a moment. I do enjoy Supreme Power. Really enjoying Ultimate Power.

[BentonGrey]

Thanoson..........that's just plain ludicrious.  I can point you to comics where Ollie is taken down by just one or two thugs, and where Hal is dropped by a single punch from Batman.  Heck, Deathstroke put Hal out of action with a punch in one comic.  The writing is inconsistent.  I can also point you to comics where whole armies can't stop Hal, where Ollie can stand in with super villains, and where Bats can dominate any and all comers, crowds, singles, world class martial artists.......When were these comics on your site from?  I mean, back in the Golden Age, even Supes had trouble with a couple of gangsters now and then.  C'mon, Ollie a more skilled fighter than Bats?  Ha....you have to go with the spirit of the character, not any single apperance or group of apperances.  It's like taking a single verse of scripture completely out of context.

[Talavar]

Silver age Superman makes me throw up in my mouth a little.  I mean, Super-hypnosis?  Really?  Super-kisses?  Super-weaving?  Super-ventriloquism (from orbit)?  Super-landscaping?  Super-hunches?  Super-friction?  Super-woman's intuition?  Super make-up?  I'm not joking, these were all powers Superman claimed to have at various times during the 50s and 60s.  Go to www.superdickery.com to check some out for yourself.  People like that kind of thing?  I'd rather punch myself in the nuts than read about a character who uses super-ventriloquism and super-hypnosis regularly.

I've got to echo BentonGrey: just because Batman got beaten by low level thugs in one issue doesn't mean he sucks at fighting, I mean, I can cite one issue where he one-shots Lady Shiva. 

[stumpy]

I'd rather punch myself in the nuts than read about a character who uses super-ventriloquism and super-hypnosis regularly.

:lol: :lol: That may be my favorite quote in quite a while. :lol: :lol:


FWIW, I actually like much of the Silver Age Superman from the early- to mid-eighties; that is still the definitive Superman for me, probably because that's when I first read comics and that's when the Elliot S! Maggin and Alan Moore stories took place. But, there was absolutely a lot of what can be described, by today's writing standards, as crap.

But, we have to keep in mind that comic books from the 1950s and 60s were really a distinct category of thing than what we are used to today because they were written for little kids. The adults and even teens who buy comics now weren't a big part of the market then. So, when we complain (as I do from time to time) that those old stories had some physics that didn't work or some powers that changed from month to month or some storylines so rotten that even my dog just sniffs and walks away, we have to take into account that those stories weren't written for us. The idea of Beppo the Supermonkey might be a great story for someone who believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Of course, the comics industry was a little slow to figure out who their audience was and then was slow to shift gears. And, when they finally did, some would argue that they went too far, changing the nature of the character instead of just clearing away deadwood. But, we can exhume that horse and beat it some more on another day.  ;)

[thanoson]

I meant The uberly trained Ollie who was taught by the teacher of Deathstroke can beat Batman now.
Batman summary-   http://www.pvponline.com/images/batman/

[GhostMachine]

No, my batman website showed Batman in various fights with just ordinary thugs. Like one or two maybe. Punching him silly. Not like 15 of them. And Deathstroke and Taskmaster would laugh at 15 guys coming at him. So would Cap. He has been shown to not be as good as a fighter than they say he is. Even hal Jordan with his limited fighting skills coldcocked him. Ollie did too BEFORE he got the uber training. I see Ollie as probably being a better fighter than Bats now.

Every single one of those instances is bad writing. Even as far back as the early 40's, Batman has been shown to beat up groups of thugs on a regular basis without breaking a sweat. He has been coldcocked by being struck from behind as plot devices on occasion, and that is believable. One or two thugs beating him up is not. Its seriously bad writing, or should include a thought balloon revealing Bats threw the fight on purpose as part of some kind of plan.

Ollie decking Batman is MAJORLY bad writing, as he was seriously lacking in hand to hand combat skills for most of his career.

Hal knocking out Batman with one punch is bull for many reasons, but it gets a pass due to it happening in GL's own title. Anywhere else, and logically Batman would have dodged or blocked the blow and stomped a mudhole through Hal. I'll give you the main reason why Hal shouldn't have been able to deck Batman: Batman is paranoid, therefore he tends to be on guard even around other heroes, and he had a problem with Hal at the time so there's no reason he wouldn't have had his guard up at the time. Hal throwing a punch at Batman should have resulted in one of three things happening:

1. Batman blocks the punch and decks Hal instead.

2. Batman blocks the punch and judo tosses Hal.

3. Batman blocks the punch and Hal has his arm in a cast for a while.

I'd hazard a guess that the only heroes Batman doesn't keep his guard up around on a regular basis are Superman, Wonder Woman and the members of the Batman Family (ie, Dick, Tim and Barbara).

Anyone with no major hand to hand combat skills beating Batman in a fight or decking him is a load of crap. Especially post-Knightfall\Knightquest, because while recovering he underwent further hand to hand combat training by Lady Shiva, who is supposed to be one of the best fighters on the planet. Plus, unlike most heroes, Batman isn't afraid to fight dirty when necessary. Closest comparison I can make is that he's more or less a streetfighter with some ninja skills, but that isn't correct as he's trained in several different styles of martial arts, not just street fighting and ninjitsu. He uses judo moves on a fairly regular basis, for instance, and has been shown to have been trained in boxing and wrestling.

And I'm sorry, but even trained by the guy who taught Deathstroke, Ollie should still lose to Batman in a fight. Deathstroke only really has an advantage in a fight with Batman due to his powers, not his fighting skills. Take away Slade's powers, and I'd give Batman the edge in a fight due to physical conditioning and age.

I'd like to see John Byrne do a run on Batman (NOT A REBOOT!!). Heck, he's already done runs on Superman and Wonder Woman. But I know from posts he's made on his forums that he's been offered Batman before and turned it down.

[Talavar]

FWIW, I actually like much of the Silver Age Superman from the early- to mid-eighties; that is still the definitive Superman for me, probably because that's when I first read comics and that's when the Elliot S! Maggin and Alan Moore stories took place. But, there was absolutely a lot of what can be described, by today's writing standards, as crap.

Glad I made you laugh stumpy, but it's true. :D  When I think of Silver Age, my cut-off is traditionally the later 70s.  I know the Superman of the later 70s and the 80s isn't really very distinct from the earlier Superman, but comics as a whole had started to shift away tonally from the Silver Age.  You could really see this in the change of Batman from Adam West campiness to a much more serious character, and the rise of anti-hero characters, many of which stem from the 70s, but it was present in Superman comics as well.

I think it's possible for any normal human character to get hit by a punch thrown by surprise.  Hal and Ollie connecting with punches to Batman I accept; I don't think either of them is his match in a fist fight.  I still wouldn't put the better-trained Ollie at Batman's level, as Batman's been training for most of his life, and Deathstroke is a superior fighter due to powers, not pure training.

[Revenant]

Even the best fighter should get surprised by a cold-cock every once in a while.  Batman's not superhuman, after all and even if he is paranoid of some of the Leagers, he should still be surprised.  His adrenaline wouldn't be pumping and he might be in a relaxed state.

[stumpy]

FWIW, I actually like much of the Silver Age Superman from the early- to mid-eighties; that is still the definitive Superman for me, probably because that's when I first read comics and that's when the Elliot S! Maggin and Alan Moore stories took place. But, there was absolutely a lot of what can be described, by today's writing standards, as crap.

Glad I made you laugh stumpy, but it's true. :D  When I think of Silver Age, my cut-off is traditionally the later 70s.  I know the Superman of the later 70s and the 80s isn't really very distinct from the earlier Superman, but comics as a whole had started to shift away tonally from the Silver Age.  You could really see this in the change of Batman from Adam West campiness to a much more serious character, and the rise of anti-hero characters, many of which stem from the 70s, but it was present in Superman comics as well.

That's a good point. The historical meeting of Grim and Gritty ushered in a real change in comics. Arguably one of the best Superman stories is Moore's pre-Byrne finale and the tone there is clearly darker than 99% of the epoch it closed. And, of course, the several years before showed some of the same influence, from the more serious Luthor in the Power Suit and space ship Brainiac all the way to Kara's death in Crisis.

And I enjoyed the change. I think the stories were of much higher quality, though I think that's more because the writers decided to write for a more sophisticated reader. But, through all that, something that I really liked about the Superman character is that he was still a hero motivated by the desire to do good in the world. He never became a vengeful hero out to hurt the bad guys or a character whose worldview was that "people are animals and I am their cage." He was stll Superman, endowed with ridiculous power, but that power tempered by his fundamental decency. And by the understanding of his limitations gained by growing up as an orphan, one who twice saw his parents die before his eyes while he was helpless to save them.

Anyway, I could go on, but that was the Superman I think of from the Silver Age. I liked him.

BTW,

The argument that because Superman is extremely difficult to harm makes his stories less interesting, because you know he's not in danger is a silly one to me, since you know 98% of the time that whatever hero of whatever comic you're reading isn't going to die or lose.  If you really think, "oh, this month they're going to kill off Batman!" you need help that I can't give you.

I agree totally. I used to have this argument with fans of the Byrne-reboot all the time. Of course, the rebooted Superman was still hard to hurt, but Byrne took things a step beyond when he said that one of the big reasons he ditched the Superboy aspect of Superman was that the stories lacked dramtic tension because the reader already knew Superboy would survive. And this from someone who was brought in to refocus the character as one appealing to the modern, sophisticated comic audience! Dramatic tension? Puh-lease. Even a few years later when sales were in the toilet and they had to kill Superman as a gimmick to revive readership, no one actually thought that the character would really stay dead.