When Captain America throws his mighty SHIEEEEEELLLLLLLD!!!!

[Valandar]

Just an excercise in total fanboy pseudoscience here...

Okay, so Cap's shield is made of an Adamantium / Vibranium mixture that can't be replicated, is nearly indestructible, and can absorb 95% - 97% of any impact directed against it, which is why he can survive if the Hulk punches his shield, or he can strap it to his feet and land from a 200 foot fall like he was stepping off a curb.

But... if that's so... then it could NEVER be used as a weapon. Consider:

Cap sees a bunch of mooks about thirty feet away mugging an old lady. He tosses his shield, intending to play "pinball" with their heads and the shield, while avoiding the little old lady. The shield flies, and impacts the head of the first mook - with no effect. The shield suddenly loses all momentum because it absorbed the impact, and falls to the ground, while the mook barely notices, and scratches at the back of his head where that moth flew past.

So I got bored last night and started thinking about just how Vibranium works and how the shield could both reduce impact, AND be used as a Frisbee O' Doom.

Facts (from a Marvel Comics point of view):

1 ) Vibranium absorbs impact and vibration (especially the latter), converting the kinetic energy into strong and weak nuclear force, binding the atoms in a molecule of Vibranium tighter together and making it more durable.

2 ) Adamantium is a form of resin with pseudo metallic properties and a molecular density so strong that, barring unimaginable force, the only way to reshape it or damage it is with a device or power that can directly affect Strong and Weak Nuclear Force.

3 ) Captain America's Shield is both the earliest known sample of Adamantium, and also is the only known example of a Vibranium / Adamantium mixture.

4 ) The shield retains the full properties of Adamantium and a bizarrely modified version of the properties of Vibranium - it appears to only absorb direct-on impact to the surface, but the edges can deliver powerful blows without being absorbed.

Conjectures:

A ) The Vibranium and Adamantium are not truly combined into a single molecule. Instead, the latticework of the Adamantium molecules are interlaced with a similar latticework of Vibranium molecules. It is re-creating this latticework that has so far escaped all other attempts.

B ) Vibranium molecules have a directional compression rate for the absorbsion of vibration and impact, like a spring. In a raw sample or a refined sample, these molecules face in virtually every direction, allowing for its properties to function omnidirectionally.

C ) Working on A and B, the Vibranium molecules have somehow become 'aligned' in Cap's shield, much the same way that the magnetic properties of Lodestone have become aligned (and thus unlike normal Iron ore). This results in both a significantly greater percentage of kinetic absorbsion in the direction perpendicular to the face of the shield, but also reduces the absorbsion along that plane to virtually nil.

If C is so, then when using the face of the shield to deflect a blow, it would require several orders of magnitude greater power to damage his shield than it would a similar disc of Adamantium, while the edge of the shield could be used as a weapon with no more loss of kinetic energy than would be expected from a similar mass of pure Adamantium.

So... have I been thinking too much about it, or what?

[Mr. Hamrick]

yes, you've been thinking too much about it.  you've given me a headache. . .    :P

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Well, it makes sense to me.  As much as comic book pseudoscience ever can, anyway.

[Panther_Gunn]

Have you taken into account that there are two different adamantium/vibranium density areas in the shield?  The middle, "dome" section is significantly higher in vibranium, where as the remaining shield (including the back and sides) is mostly adamantium?  I can scan in a diagram if needed.  :D

[Sword]

Once he pitches the frisbee O doom, Cap can control its path with electromagnets built into his gloves, provided by Hank Pym. Thus if he wants the edges of adamantium to ricochet off the goons' head, The shield will turn in midflight so the edge clubs the goon.

[Alaric]

Once he pitches the frisbee O doom, Cap can control its path with electromagnets built into his gloves, provided by Hank Pym. Thus if he wants the edges of adamantium to ricochet off the goons' head, The shield will turn in midflight so the edge clubs the goon.

I know he had magnets installed in an early avengers story, but I also know that in a solo Cap story not too much later he stated that he had removed the magnets, because they threw him off a little or something.

[GhostMachine]

Once he pitches the frisbee O doom, Cap can control its path with electromagnets built into his gloves, provided by Hank Pym. Thus if he wants the edges of adamantium to ricochet off the goons' head, The shield will turn in midflight so the edge clubs the goon.

I know he had magnets installed in an early avengers story, but I also know that in a solo Cap story not too much later he stated that he had removed the magnets, because they threw him off a little or something.

Actually, it was Tony Stark, not Hank Pym, who was behind the electromagnetics. The magnets were discarded a heck of a long time ago. The mid-late 60's, I think, and it was because the equipment threw off the shield's balance.  During Mike Zeck's run as artist on Cap way back in the 80's (maybe early 90's), Cap had to use an uzi to blow away a member of the terrorist organization ULTIMATUM (aka Flag-Smasher's goons) who was about to kill an innocent hostage because his shield was on the other side of the room. If he still had the electromagnets, he probably would have been able to yank the shield across the room then throw it instead of having to perforate the scumbag.

[Carravaggio]

Still its good to know Cap can pull out the stops when needs be.

[Zippo]

I read that the middle of sheild was vibranium, while the outermost ring was composed almost entirely of adamantium, with the space between being a mixture of the two.

That would explain how he can throw it and have it still hurt.

[detourne_me]

that makes sense...  samurai swords utilize the same principle.  they are made of composite metals, and the back of the blade is a softer composite that allows the sword to be used defensively as well as offensively,  then the blade itself is a more rigid metal... providing an excellent sharp edge.  if the sword was completely rigid (like most other swords in the world) it would've been too brittle to use in blocking attacks.

[Panther_Gunn]

Image courtesy TOHOTMU, Book of Weapons (first run).

[stumpy]

Anyone notice that the proportions are displayed in reverse order from one region to the next, so that the range is really beween 25 and 40 percent vibranium for the shield? Apparently, vibranium is denser than adamantium.

(Sorry, I'm an engineer who spends a lot of time lookng at technical diagrams.  :P)

I'd love to see a phase diagram for vibranium adamantium alloys. What's the eutectic temperature for this stuff, two million degress?  :)

[Protomorph]

I have also noticed that, depending on the outcome Cap wants, the edge is either dull enough to zonk a thug out cold, or sharp enough to decapitate someone.

[GhostMachine]

I have also noticed that, depending on the outcome Cap wants, the edge is either dull enough to zonk a thug out cold, or sharp enough to decapitate someone.

To be fair, when he decapitated Baron Blood, he was holding the shield, not throwing it and likely holding it at a slight angle. And when Magneto sliced off part of Colonel America's skull in Marvel Zombies, it could be partially due to him being partially decomposed as well as the fact that Magneto used his powers to make it slice through.

I'm not aware of any other instances of the shield decapitating someone, so I can't comment about those if there have been any.

[Talavar]

Though there are other instances of it appearing to shear through something, like a machine or robot, rather than do bashing damage.

[GhostMachine]

Though there are other instances of it appearing to shear through something, like a machine or robot, rather than do bashing damage.

Maybe Cap doesn't throw it as hard at living beings (that he knows, or thinks, it would kill) as he does at undead, monsters, robots, machines, etc.....

Although, it does seem screwy that a guy who can lift about 800lbs (according to the various Handbooks) would be able to toss the shield hard enough to cut through certain things, no matter how hard the shield is.

[stumpy]

Although, it does seem screwy that a guy who can lift about 800lbs (according to the various Handbooks) would be able to toss the shield hard enough to cut through certain things, no matter how hard the shield is.

Why is that odd? Someone who can lift 800 pounds is very strong, in human terms. I wouldn't be surprised he could throw the shield hard enough to force its way through something, though that depends a lot on what the thing is and how sharp the shield is.

[Protomorph]

Then again, look at the ease that Wolvie has in slicing through...everything, basically. He's not any stronger than Cap. Just because they can can cut most things, why wouldn't he need the appropriate force to go behind them? I don't think Cap could rip a sentinel's leg to shreads with the edge of his shield, even if he kept hold of it. Granted, I don't believe the shield is supposed to be honed razor keen, but it can cut rope (and mushy zombie skulls).

[Alaric]

Then again, look at the ease that Wolvie has in slicing through...everything, basically. He's not any stronger than Cap.

Well, that depends on who you ask, and when. Wolvie's one of those characters with somewhat, shall we say, "unstable" strength levels. He was originaly supposed to be about as strong as Spider-Man. Durring his first few years with the X-Men, he was treated as having slightly-superhuman strength, but not in Spidey's class. By the time the first couple of versions of the Handbook came out, his powers had been radically altered to center around his "healing factor" (originally a pretty minor power), and his strength, now due purely to training, was listed in the 500 lbs range. Still later, when that handbook edition with the seperate pages with holes for putting in a binder came out (can't remember off hand what that one was called), he was listed as having "enhanced human" strength, making him at least a little stronger than Cap, who had "peak human" strength. So who knows? Personally, I liked Wolvie's powerset (and personality) from the original "Phoenix saga" era best- adamantium claws and skeleton, enhanced strength, speed, endurance, healing, senses, and instincts, basic berserker savagery... Made more sense for a character named "Wolverine" than having his central power be a phenomenal ability to heal quickly...

Not that any of this has much to do with this topic, off course, other than giving another example of how inconsistant comics are...

None

[GhostMachine]

There have been times that Cap has thrown the shield through things such as Sentinels, objects made out of titanium alloy (I think he did something like that during Secret Wars), and other materials that the shield should just not go through because he lacks the physical strength to throw the shield with enough force. I don't care if the shield is made out of an adamantium-vibranium alloy and is supposed to be the hardest thing on the planet; it should require someone with superhuman strength to be able to hurl it through certain things that Cap has thrown it through. I could buy it cutting into and sticking into some of the things I'm talking about, but not severing them or going through one side and coming out the other. Next thing you know, some writer will have Cap decapitate Ultron with the shield.....and if that's actually already been done, I don't want to know about it.

I also find it particularly unbelievable that Wolverine's claws can slice through Sentinels like hot knives through butter, yet he has trouble cutting up the Hulk unless he goes into a berserker rage first. Especially since most of the Hulk's invulnerability was retconned into super-fast regeneration.

[Talavar]

Wolverine not having wolverine powers doesn't bother me, I mean, Spider-man doesn't really have spider powers (he has generic bug powers; spiders aren't strong), and Batman doesn't have bat powers.  Wolvie's strength level was close to Spider-man's until Spidey's went up, and Logan's went down.  Now I'd say he and Cap are very close in strength, at a little stronger than a normal person could achieve.

On the list of debates this board has seen many times before is Wolverine being able to cut through almost anything, and it's pretty well established that though Wolverine shouldn't be able to cut the Hulk, or through metal that's very thick, he can.  It's been demonstrated far too many times to dismiss it as a one-off of bad writing.

[Alaric]

Wolverine not having wolverine powers doesn't bother me, I mean, Spider-man doesn't really have spider powers (he has generic bug powers; spiders aren't strong), and Batman doesn't have bat powers.  Wolvie's strength level was close to Spider-man's until Spidey's went up, and Logan's went down.  Now I'd say he and Cap are very close in strength, at a little stronger than a normal person could achieve.

On the list of debates this board has seen many times before is Wolverine being able to cut through almost anything, and it's pretty well established that though Wolverine shouldn't be able to cut the Hulk, or through metal that's very thick, he can.  It's been demonstrated far too many times to dismiss it as a one-off of bad writing.

I think you misunderstood me. The list of powers I gave for Wolverine are not in fact "wolverine powers"; I was simply stating that to me personaly those powers made more sense for someone named Wolverine than the whole "healing factor" thing (also, it really bugs me when a character's powers inexplicably and retroactively change in such a major way). Also, the changes in Wolvie's strength level aren't as simple as "he got less strong over time"; at least once or twice, he actually got stronger, although as far as I know, he's never reached his original strength level.

[Protomorph]

Re: Wolvie strength

I was kinda of the thought that his strength wasn't enhanced, per se, but was essentially the product of constant training, and lugging around a heavy metal skeleton.

[stumpy]

Add to that the idea that his healing factor should allow him to train much more often than a normal person could. (I don't have any idea whether or not he does.) Most people can only build muscle at a limited rate because the damage done by weight-lifting (or whatever strength-training), which is part of the muscle-building process, can only heal so fast. In theory, Wolvie could do intense training many times a day. In a normal person, that would only result in much soreness and eventual injury. In addition, he could train harder because all the joint and connective tissue damage that plagues people who over-train isn't really a problem for him.

Of course, I have no idea if that is really what is going on in the comics. But it is a believable rationale for him being stronger than a normal human. Then again, I'm not sure that it would allow him to really go significantly beyond human strength, because it is still just a mechanism for building normal human musculature. For example, I still think the idea that he is strong enough to push his claws through a railroad rail or an engine block is ridiculous. By the same token, Cap is very strong for a human, but he can't believably throw the shield through an I-beam or an oak tree, no matter what the shield is made of. But I have less trouble believing that he could cleave some decaying flesh with a hard enough shot.

[Talavar]

I think Wolverine's metal bones would also increase his body's ability to generate force, as his bones would have more mass, and be capable of withstanding more strain.

[GhostMachine]

I think Wolverine's metal bones would also increase his body's ability to generate force, as his bones would have more mass, and be capable of withstanding more strain.

I doubt it, since he doesn't have enhanced muscles. Logically his bones would withstand the strain, but his muscles wouldn't be able to generate enough force and might even rip off the bone.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

They would be able to take more force, but not create it.  In fact, the additional weight of the enhanced skeleton would serve to reduce his overall effective strength, although it might help when it came to punched.

Now to the matter of his claws going through metal.

I really don't think it's that unrealistic at all, depending.

The ability to punch though something does not depend on the overall force of the moving object vs. the strength of the target, but the force per area of that object, as well as the strength of the object.  If adamantium is unbreakable, then that solves that one.  If the edge of the claws themselves are microscopically small enough, then even a modest amount of force applied to them will create an enormous force/area.  We actually do have hand operated metal cutter and they aren't nearly that sharp.

Of course, if this were the case, then him using his claws to climb the way the cartoons show it at least (not sure if he does that in the comics or not) would be impossible, as the edge of the claws, would go straight throw the wall, unless it was something like concrete.

[stumpy]

I think we have touched on this in another Wolverine thread, but sharpness is only part of the story. I start out assuming they are extremely sharp. But Wolverine's claws are not infinitesimally thin, no matter how sharp the cutting edge is. (At least, they are always drawn with some thickness.) That's why it takes force to push them through something and, in the case of something made of a stiff material, it takes plenty of force.

Here is an example, to give some idea where I am going with this. Take a round steel bar, say 3"  diameter with a very thin cut in the bar, say 1" deep. Now take a knife shaped like one of Wolvie's claws and try push it down into that cut. How much force would that take? Note that the sharpness of the knife isn't a factor, since the cut is already there. All the force is used to deform the metal of the bar and overcome friction at the contact surfaces. We could make some assumtions about material elasticity, geometry, and frictional constants and actually do this problem, but suffice to say that it would take a lot of force. Way more force than it would take to lift a man off the ground, for instance. And Wolverine has to push three of them through.

That's why I always shake my head when he is shown doing this kind of thing.

BTW, your examples of the metal cutters is a good point, but they work by shearing the metal, which is a different mechanism. In addition, almost all hand-operated cutters are designed to give enormous mechancal advantage to the operator, so that the force applied at the cutting point is many times greater than what you could apply directly. Effectively, they use leverage to give you super strength (at the cost of speed).

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Yes, I concede you your point there.  And if the claws' edge has been established to have a significant thickness, then any plausebility is long gone.

[Alaric]

Re: Wolvie strength

I was kinda of the thought that his strength wasn't enhanced, per se, but was essentially the product of constant training, and lugging around a heavy metal skeleton.

But my point is, he used to explicitly HAVE superhuman strenght, at leat to some degree. Just read X-Men #99 to see what I mean- one of the clearest-cut examples I can think of.

Then again, his skills weren't nearly as well-developed back then, either. The fact is, in the early days of Wolvie's X-Men adventures, he probably lost at least as many battles as he won...