When Captain America throws his mighty SHIEEEEEELLLLLLLD!!!!

[Urthman]

Val,

I like your analyisis, but you've left something out.  Cap's "shield bash" attack.  Cap will frequently smack people with the "flat" (or "dome") of his shield, using it as a club or cudgel or battering ram.   Based on your analyisis, Cap's shield arm (or his whole body, if he's charging behind the shield using it as a ram) should come to a complete stop without hurting the target when he does this.

What if we (ignoring the OHOTMU) posit that the adamantium is mostly on the outer part of the shield and the vibranium is on the inner part of the shield.   So when the outer adamantium part hits something (either edge-on or flat bashing), it damages the person/object just like a plain admamantium shield would.  But when something strikes the shield, the outer adamantium part is completely unharmed and the inner vibranium part prevents the force from being transfered to Steve's arm.

Think of it like punching someone with a padded iron gauntlet.  The iron (adamantium) hurts when it hits the target, but the padding (vibranium) prevents the attacker's hand from being hurt.

(All this leaves aside the question of how you can move vibranium at all.  How can you pick it up or push it or throw it if it's always absorbing force?)

[BlueBard]

Val,

I like your analyisis, but you've left something out.  Cap's "shield bash" attack.  Cap will frequently smack people with the "flat" (or "dome") of his shield, using it as a club or cudgel or battering ram.   Based on your analyisis, Cap's shield arm (or his whole body, if he's charging behind the shield using it as a ram) should come to a complete stop without hurting the target when he does this.

What if we (ignoring the OHOTMU) posit that the adamantium is mostly on the outer part of the shield and the vibranium is on the inner part of the shield.   So when the outer adamantium part hits something (either edge-on or flat bashing), it damages the person/object just like a plain admamantium shield would.  But when something strikes the shield, the outer adamantium part is completely unharmed and the inner vibranium part prevents the force from being transfered to Steve's arm.

Think of it like punching someone with a padded iron gauntlet.  The iron (adamantium) hurts when it hits the target, but the padding (vibranium) prevents the attacker's hand from being hurt.

(All this leaves aside the question of how you can move vibranium at all.  How can you pick it up or push it or throw it if it's always absorbing force?)

Makes sense, but canonically portrayed the shield is definitely an admantium/vibranium alloy (albeit possibly in different concentrations throughout the material).

I would suspect that the main purpose of the vibranium would be to resist transferring force -through- it, which does not stop the shield from exerting force of its' own (through inertia).  So the difference would be that Cap, using a charge attack or the force of his arm, imparts inertia to the shield.  The shield smacks into another object and transfers the inertial energy to the target (forcefully!).  In the case of deflecting a bullet however, part of the force would be reflected back into the projectile and the remaining force would be absorbed by the vibranium, thus transferring little or no force back into Cap's arm.  Note that Cap's shield is usually shown as deflecting projectiles, not stopping them.  Where pure vibranium should stop a bullet's momentum completely, the alloy is able to reflect some of that force back.

As far as actually moving vibranium goes, I would think that maybe it only absorbs a sharp increase in kinetic force (such as with an impact) and does nothing to affect inertia.  Small amounts of constant force, or greater force incrementally applied over time would affect it.  Or at least it doesn't react strongly enough to defeat moving it.

So, in the event of moving it by picking it up all you have to do is exert enough force to overcome gravitational pull, which is relatively weak and decidedly non-kinetic in nature.  Thrown, you only have to overcome air resistance (again, with relatively weaker force).  However, if you were trying to push it across the ground friction would generate enough counterforce to activate the vibranium... and it would defeat any attempt to move it that way.

The shield, however, not being pure vibranium, isn't subject even to that and wouldn't increase friction resistance in quite the same way.

[Valandar]

Val,

I like your analyisis, but you've left something out.  Cap's "shield bash" attack.  Cap will frequently smack people with the "flat" (or "dome") of his shield, using it as a club or cudgel or battering ram.   Based on your analyisis, Cap's shield arm (or his whole body, if he's charging behind the shield using it as a ram) should come to a complete stop without hurting the target when he does this.

What if we (ignoring the OHOTMU) posit that the adamantium is mostly on the outer part of the shield and the vibranium is on the inner part of the shield.   So when the outer adamantium part hits something (either edge-on or flat bashing), it damages the person/object just like a plain admamantium shield would.  But when something strikes the shield, the outer adamantium part is completely unharmed and the inner vibranium part prevents the force from being transfered to Steve's arm.

Think of it like punching someone with a padded iron gauntlet.  The iron (adamantium) hurts when it hits the target, but the padding (vibranium) prevents the attacker's hand from being hurt.

(All this leaves aside the question of how you can move vibranium at all.  How can you pick it up or push it or throw it if it's always absorbing force?)

Makes sense, but canonically portrayed the shield is definitely an admantium/vibranium alloy (albeit possibly in different concentrations throughout the material).

I would suspect that the main purpose of the vibranium would be to resist transferring force -through- it, which does not stop the shield from exerting force of its' own (through inertia).  So the difference would be that Cap, using a charge attack or the force of his arm, imparts inertia to the shield.  The shield smacks into another object and transfers the inertial energy to the target (forcefully!).  In the case of deflecting a bullet however, part of the force would be reflected back into the projectile and the remaining force would be absorbed by the vibranium, thus transferring little or no force back into Cap's arm.  Note that Cap's shield is usually shown as deflecting projectiles, not stopping them.  Where pure vibranium should stop a bullet's momentum completely, the alloy is able to reflect some of that force back.

As far as actually moving vibranium goes, I would think that maybe it only absorbs a sharp increase in kinetic force (such as with an impact) and does nothing to affect inertia.  Small amounts of constant force, or greater force incrementally applied over time would affect it.  Or at least it doesn't react strongly enough to defeat moving it.

So, in the event of moving it by picking it up all you have to do is exert enough force to overcome gravitational pull, which is relatively weak and decidedly non-kinetic in nature.  Thrown, you only have to overcome air resistance (again, with relatively weaker force).  However, if you were trying to push it across the ground friction would generate enough counterforce to activate the vibranium... and it would defeat any attempt to move it that way.

The shield, however, not being pure vibranium, isn't subject even to that and wouldn't increase friction resistance in quite the same way.

Bard: The problem is that Adamantium, itself, is canonically displayed as a RESIN, that has metallic properties. Every time it is shown as being created it is as a resinous compound. The fact that it forms metallic crystals during curing is an anamoly.

This would explain why it's been so difficult to replicate the unique mixture in his shield. Combining a natural metal and a resin in a single compund is extraordinarily difficut, especially since adding nearly anything to a resin, even stronger materials, can often REDUCE the effective strength of that resin.

The problem with the Vibranium stopping force transferring through it is that all force tranfers through an object - both that delivered to it, and that which it delivers. And Vibranium (Wakandan variety) has been shown to be unuseable as a weapon for that very reason, unless somehow alloyed with Antarctic Vibranium (a totally different metal with a similar name, that actually GENERATES vibrations that can weaken metallic crystals).

Also, if the Shield wasn't 'Vibranium-ey' enough to cancel out the full effect of a bullet, there's no way it would let him survive a 300 foot fall uninjured, or stop a punch from a Rampaging Hulk like he'd been hit by a 50 lb sack of grain.

I think the final solution is that it's a comic book, and the laws of physics take a backseat to telling a story and drawing it in an exciting way. :D

[Alaric]

Remember that a) the adamantium in the shield, if it can be called actual adamantium at all, was an early experimental form, and therefor may have different properties than regular adamantium (which was created in an attempt to replicate that substance), and b) some mysterious x-element somehow entered the process of the shield's creation, and may well be part of the mix, as well. It may be that the shield has properties quite destinct from either adamantium or vibranium (and there are two known types of vibranium, each with different properties, anyway...).

[thalaw2]

I love this stuff!!!!

[herodad1]

ive been a comic fan for35 yrs. and the trouble with characters powers being consistant is who's doing the writing.some writers do their  homework on a character/ers abilities where others ego's and deadlines do their  writing.as far as wolverines strength he's stronger than a person of his height and weight due to his healing factor.comics tend to stretch reality and phyisics alot but marvel seems to hold closer to boundries than any of the other companies.the marvel universe books clearly outline each characters strengths,powers,and weaknesses.wolverines natural mutant powers are senses and healing.he stays in peak condition because his body constantly regenerates itself.as far as his claws it would depend on the force he can generate and the length of his claws.they'll only go in up to his knuckles.caps shield bounces off objects because he can only generate so much force where if say the hulk threw it it would be a missle.

[BlueBard]

I didn't know Adamantium was considered to be a resin.  I've only heard it referred to as metallic.  Various stories involving magnetism acting upon it only reinforced that impression.

{SOB} I'm a failure as a fanboy! {Choke}  :(

[GhostMachine]

I would like to point out something that I forgot about but was reminded of when I saw it posted at another board recently:

Cap's shield is NOT made of an adamantium\vibranium alloy; that's a misnomer and bad writing when it is mentioned as such; the shield is actually a steel\vibranium alloy that was created by accident and couldn't be duplicated. Adamantium was a result of experiments to replicate the alloy that Cap's shield is made of.

And Urthman sort of got it right; the vibranium in the shield absorbs much of the force (and some of the sound) when the shield is impacted on or used to hit something while Cap is holding it, which is why he isn't turned to pulp or knocked halfway to Japan when the Hulk hits the shield, for example.

[Alaric]

I would like to point out something that I forgot about but was reminded of when I saw it posted at another board recently:

Cap's shield is NOT made of an adamantium\vibranium alloy; that's a misnomer and bad writing when it is mentioned as such; the shield is actually a steel\vibranium alloy that was created by accident and couldn't be duplicated. Adamantium was a result of experiments to replicate the alloy that Cap's shield is made of.

And Urthman sort of got it right; the vibranium in the shield absorbs much of the force (and some of the sound) when the shield is impacted on or used to hit something while Cap is holding it, which is why he isn't turned to pulp or knocked halfway to Japan when the Hulk hits the shield, for example.

There tends to be an ongoing argument about this (I actually reffered to this in passing in my previous post). Aparently, the shield was athe result of bonding an experimental steel alloy to vibraneum, and attempts to replicate the shield resulted in the creation of adamantium. This has led some people to assume that the experimental steel alloy used in the shield was an early form of adamantium- hence, that the shield is an adamantium/vibranium alloy.

[GhostMachine]

I would like to point out something that I forgot about but was reminded of when I saw it posted at another board recently:

Cap's shield is NOT made of an adamantium\vibranium alloy; that's a misnomer and bad writing when it is mentioned as such; the shield is actually a steel\vibranium alloy that was created by accident and couldn't be duplicated. Adamantium was a result of experiments to replicate the alloy that Cap's shield is made of.

And Urthman sort of got it right; the vibranium in the shield absorbs much of the force (and some of the sound) when the shield is impacted on or used to hit something while Cap is holding it, which is why he isn't turned to pulp or knocked halfway to Japan when the Hulk hits the shield, for example.

There tends to be an ongoing argument about this (I actually reffered to this in passing in my previous post). Aparently, the shield was athe result of bonding an experimental steel alloy to vibraneum, and attempts to replicate the shield resulted in the creation of adamantium. This has led some people to assume that the experimental steel alloy used in the shield was an early form of adamantium- hence, that the shield is an adamantium/vibranium alloy.

The problem is, Marvel themselves referred to it as an Adamantium-Vibranium alloy in the original Marvel Handbook weapons issue, then go on, in the same article, to say its made of a steel alloy that Dr. MacLain was working with and vibranium. (For the record, he was trying to create a new alloy to make tanks out of) But in the entry on Adamantium in the later Marvel Handbook series (the Deluxe Edition), there are all sorts of things that don't make sense: its referred to as a man made steel alloy, a series of closely related iron compounds created through a secret process. Then later its said to be made up of certain chemical resins, NOT a combination of metal AND resins. The adamantium article further goes on to explain the creation of Cap's shield:

He tried to fuse the Vibranium to the iron alloy (note: this iron alloy is NOT adamantium) numerous times without success. Then one night when he dozed off, some as yet unknown factor entered the process and allowed the fusion to occur. Upon discovering his success, MacLain poured the molten metal into a disc-shaped mold.

Now, adamantium itself also has to be molten (heated to 1,500 f) to be shaped, but I highlighted the above because it clearly says metal, NOT resins AND metal. I contend that any references to adamantium in the shield's composition should really say `proto-adamantium' (as in prototype), because its not really adamantium.

Not trying to start an argument or anything, just clarify why the shield shouldn't really be referred to as adamantium\vibranium, but really as proto-adamantium\vibranium.

[BlueBard]

Ugh... And this is the sort of thing that seriously tempts the reader to chuck continuity into the nearest dung heap and quit trying to make sense of comics.