Has Hercules forgotten who he is? Civil War is frustrating me!

captmorgan72 · February 19, 2007, 04:02:48 PM

Why would Captain America need anyone else but Hercules? Unless Hercules has become a shadow of his former self, he should be able to defeat Iron Man and all his people by himself. The lion of Olympus, the son of Zeus, the God of strength, Hercules is all of these things. The mightiest of the Gods can't take Iron Man and his people? With the exception of The Sentry, the rest of them should pose no threat.

Why would everyone freak out on Cap's side when they thought Thor returned and joined Tony's side? Hercules is stronger and a more skilled warrior than Thor ever was. Take away his hammer and Thor is but a small challenge to Hercules.

I just don't understand what the writers are thinking of when they write this stuff. I think you guys would write much better stories than those people. Anyway, I'm off my soapbox.

Talavar · February 19, 2007, 08:28:08 PM

Hercules is stronger than Iron Man's entire side, except the Sentry? I can't agree with that statement. The Sentry, while registered, hasn't been fighting for the registration side up until the cliffhanger in issue 6; regardless, Hercules has generally been shown to be about Thor's equal in terms of strength, while Thor has far more other powers. Cap's side freaked out because they thought Thor was dead, he just showed up on Iron Man's side, and because he just started blasting them all with lightning. And while Hercules is stronger than any of the following individually, is he really a match for Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Doc Samson, Radioactive Man and She-hulk all at once? I don't think so. Herc is Captain America's heaviest hitter in my opinion, but Iron Man's side has far more characters at the high-end of powers. I mean, the other big guns of Cap's side are Luke Cage, who's not on the same league as the others we've been mentioning, and maybe Hulkling, who's too new of a character to accurately judge just how strong and tough he is. Most of the other characters on Cap's side are street level heroes like Iron Daredevil, Falcon, Spider-man, Cloak & Dagger, or glass cannons like the Human Torch. While Herc maybe hasn't been getting his due in Civil War, I can understand that he's a B-list Marvel character at best, and if he suddenly became the star of Civil War it would be pretty weird.

GhostMachine · February 19, 2007, 09:19:40 PM

All Cap would have to do to even things out....well, actually, it would tip the scales in his side's favor....would be to get Dr. Strange on his side.

thanoson · February 19, 2007, 10:17:13 PM

Obvious you didn't see the cliffhanger to #6. He let Shroud and some other C-level heroes out. Now Cap's side is even, right? :P

lugaru · February 20, 2007, 03:58:50 AM

Quote from: thanoson on February 19, 2007, 10:17:13 PM
Obvious you didn't see the cliffhanger to #6. He let Shroud and some other C-level heroes out. Now Cap's side is even, right? :P

As much as Marvel has tried not to choose sides and has made a big deal about "either side could be right" the fact that caps side is seriosly underpowered proves that they are the good guys... because in Marvel the good guys are always weaker. So it has gone from being a difference of opinions to being a splinter cell of talented but low level heroes fighting against earths mightiest who have gone too far (seriosly, who the heck clones gods? That's like the ulimate evil mad scientist aspiration).

About Herk he is a poor mans thor, especially when Thor now is an evil clone who will just as soon blast a street level hero into a paste than look at them. Dont get me wrong, I actually prefer Hercules over thor but for that reason, Hercules is strong and free spirited and carefree... this makes him a fun character but in marvel the most entertaining characters are rarely the most powerful or important.

B A D · February 20, 2007, 08:57:43 AM

Ive said it elsehwere, but Marvel has never used Herc the Way they should have. I think I've read one story about his prowress with his bow, and in the mythology, that was prevelant as a skill. Herc in legend was stronger than anybody, period. and Although he had a temper, he never was this drunken ,stupid oaf thats been portrayed at the house of ideas since Layton massacared the character in his two minis.

thanoson · February 20, 2007, 09:04:57 AM

The Wrecker- "Heya boys, it's our old pal Herc. How's it going buddy?"
Herc- "Zounds!!! I just pooped my loincloth."

That asisde, I think the Wrecking Crew to be a very tough team. They even whooped up on a depowered Juggs recently. I had them set up pretty good in FF too. If they didn't die in 4 hits, they were doing serious damage.

Talavar · February 20, 2007, 11:49:08 AM

Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 08:57:43 AM
Ive said it elsehwere, but Marvel has never used Herc the Way they should have. I think I've read one story about his prowress with his bow, and in the mythology, that was prevelant as a skill. Herc in legend was stronger than anybody, period. and Although he had a temper, he never was this drunken ,stupid oaf thats been portrayed at the house of ideas since Layton massacared the character in his two minis.

Hercules was the strongest guy in Greek mythology. Period. Thor was the strongest in Norse mythology. Who should be stronger in the Marvel universe where both exist? *shrug*

B A D · February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM

Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

Alaric · February 20, 2007, 02:23:24 PM

Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM
Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

After all, D & D always trumps the actual myths and stuff...

Agent · February 20, 2007, 02:51:56 PM

In the past at least, Marvel took pains to portray Thor and Hercules as equals. I have an old Thor annual that includes a backup feature were Thor and Herc meet on a mountain top to arm wrestle (no, really). Their so powerful they eventually shatter the mountain but at the end we see they're still arm wrestling in the rubble with both arms perfectly straight. :P.

They even tried to undo the Wrecking Crew business, too. At one point (this was in an issue of Thor) Thor and Hercules have another run in with the Crew. Hercules freezes until Thor takes a dive to get him to snap out of it. Despite that I think the damage had already been done. Most people saw Hercules as a dim-witted musclehead.

On the bright side, the Hercules that appeared in the Ares miniseries fits the Lion of Olympus nickname. He and Ares were Olympus's greatest warriors, second to none. That's pretty much how it should be.

Alaric · February 20, 2007, 03:22:30 PM

Just want to point out that the Wrecking Crew did not defeat Herc. He was beaten by the combined efforts of Baron Zemo (who came up with the strategy that beat him), Tanya Sealy (AKA the other Titania (of the Grapplers), who drugged Herc's booze- "enough drugged booze to knock out an elephant", in her words), Tiger Shark (who began the process of softening Herc up), Mr. Hyde, the Wrecking Crew, and Goliath. In fact, it was Goliath, more than the others, who physically defeated Herc- even drugged, he was more than a match for all the others put together- and, since Goliath was Zemo's heaviest hitter present, that makes sense. The Wrecking Crew and Hyde then proceeded to further beat up the already-beaten Hercules.

lugaru · February 20, 2007, 03:32:50 PM

Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM
Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

As somebody who read heavily into real mythology books when I was a young geek I can attest that herk was a consumate warrior in every sense of the word, mastering every weapon, clever and insanely strong. But that's just not the marvel version so much as thor not having a red beard. Kind of late to change that though unless they do an ultimate hercules, which would be kind of cool actually.

Alaric · February 20, 2007, 03:36:03 PM

Quote from: lugaru on February 20, 2007, 03:32:50 PM
Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM
Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

As somebody who read heavily into real mythology books when I was a young geek I can attest that herk was a consumate warrior in every sense of the word, mastering every weapon, clever and insanely strong. But that's just not the marvel version so much as thor not having a red beard. Kind of late to change that though unless they do an ultimate hercules, which would be kind of cool actually.

My take on Marvel's Hercules has always been that he is a consumate warrior, but that he has an unfortunate tendancy not to take his battles that seriously, but instead to treat them as a game. On those rare occasions where he does take it seriously, he's very, very hard to beat.

starlock · February 21, 2007, 07:41:14 AM

Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM
Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

Thats awesome hehe,and remember hercules can double his stregnth bonuses( how he helped atlas by holding up the world for him) i will take D&D over real myths anyway when have you opened up a historical book and it showed their stats hehe

thanoson · February 21, 2007, 07:51:17 AM

Are we talking about the original Dieties and Demigods? With Melnibonian and Cthullian mythos? Man that was a hot book.

Alaric · February 21, 2007, 07:58:06 AM

Quote from: B A D on February 20, 2007, 01:46:56 PM
Thor was strong because he had those gauntlets and the belt. I read my Dieties and Demigods, son. Herc had a strength of 25, while Thor without his belt and gauntlets only a 20. I read my dieties and demigods. I knows.

By the way, in the original Dieties and Demigods, at least, Thor has a 25 strength without the belt/gloves. The belt brings it up to effectively above 25- +16 on damage, instead of the usual +14. Herc has a regular 25 strength. I have the book in front of me right now.

starlock · February 21, 2007, 09:07:34 AM

wow i have to start up my campaign again hehe right now i am running a superhero roleplaying game,but this talk has me itching for a good D&D run,i wish some of you guys(girls) lived in brooklyn NY

Herc had alot or respect in the past but i think marvel has given up on him at this point

MyndVizion · February 21, 2007, 09:10:47 AM

Civil War has frustrated me since the opening shot. I dunno, I guess I've been expecting something more epic. The action is pretty bland, the writers seem to insist on reminding the readers why we're reading the comic (registration this and registration that), and it seems that all of the issues up to date are trying to bridge into a different story. Considering there's only one more issue left, it feels like a lot of build up for very little *ooomph*. Just my humble opinion.

I haven't read all of the extra Civil War spinoff titles, because, quire frankly, I want the whole thing to just be over all ready. And it's kind of irking me that Marvel couldn't launch these things according to schedule, so now we're seeing new comic covers taking place "post Civil War" - like New Avengers without Captain America, but with Iron Man.

Captain America and Iron Man have been two of my favorite characters for years. Watching them "fight" in Civil War is like watching two lovers argue over who's family to spend Thanksgiving with.

I just expected something bigger.

Dweomer Knight · February 21, 2007, 11:10:58 AM

Forget Deities and Demigods! When I get home I'm looking them up in Gods, Demigods & Heroes!

In Norse mythology, Thor is not the strongest; his son Magni is. As a child, Magini easily lifted the corpse of a dead giant that none of the others gods in the entire pantheon was even able to budge.

In Marvel though, I don't recall Thor ever being mentioned as having children (though his Belt and Gloves of Strength have popped up from time to time).

DK

[EDIT] As far as Civil War goes, I think ole Doc Strange could end the whole thing in a minute if he really wanted to. And I wish he would.

tommyboy · February 21, 2007, 11:44:58 AM

I think you may be plesantly surprised by at least two pages in Civil war #7, Hercules fans...

B A D · February 21, 2007, 12:14:23 PM

Is Herc reading out of Dieties and Demigods , totally ripping Thor with the stats?

thanoson · February 21, 2007, 10:20:21 PM

Ok, this made up for Herc's bumbling. Wish he could keep the hammer.

lugaru · February 27, 2007, 04:57:37 PM

Quote from: thanoson on February 21, 2007, 10:20:21 PM
Ok, this made up for Herc's bumbling. Wish he could keep the hammer.

Like I said elsewhere... the hammer wasent much harder than thors head.

Alaric · February 27, 2007, 05:01:53 PM

Quote from: Dweomer Knight on February 21, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
Forget Deities and Demigods! When I get home I'm looking them up in Gods, Demigods & Heroes!

In Norse mythology, Thor is not the strongest; his son Magni is. As a child, Magini easily lifted the corpse of a dead giant that none of the others gods in the entire pantheon was even able to budge.

Technically, Hercules wasn't the strongest guy in Greek mythology, either; Atlas was stronger. Before Herc became a god, he was the strongest mortal; I don't think it was ever implied that he was stronger than the other gods, however.

Dweomer Knight · February 28, 2007, 10:13:55 AM

Quote from: Alaric on February 27, 2007, 05:01:53 PM
Quote from: Dweomer Knight on February 21, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
Forget Deities and Demigods! When I get home I'm looking them up in Gods, Demigods & Heroes!

In Norse mythology, Thor is not the strongest; his son Magni is. As a child, Magini easily lifted the corpse of a dead giant that none of the others gods in the entire pantheon was even able to budge.

Technically, Hercules wasn't the strongest guy in Greek mythology, either; Atlas was stronger. Before Herc became a god, he was the strongest mortal; I don't think it was ever implied that he was stronger than the other gods, however.

WAs Atlas ever specifically mentioned as being stronger? I can't recall. Even as a mortal Hercules took over for Atlas so Atlas could have a rest. Atlas, of course, then refused to go back and Hercules (or Herakles for his Greek name, Hercules is actually the Roman adaption of his name) had to trick him to reshoulder the world. I don't think Dionysus or Artemis et. al. could have shouldered the world. Now technically, Atlas was a Titan, not a god (the son of Iapetus (one of the original 12 Titans) and Clymene (daughter of 2 of the original 12; Oceanus and Tethys). If Herc wasn't as strong as the gods, even as a mortal, he must have been really close.

I'll have to dig out my mythology books; I haven't really read them in a long time. You might be right. Outside of Hercules, brute physicality and muscles was usually highlighted less than fighting prowess and cunning. That makes it hard to judge. Not to mention that many of the stories have multiple tellings. I think Hesiod's works are still considered the best for classic Greek mythology.

DK

Alaric · February 28, 2007, 10:39:37 AM

Quote from: Dweomer Knight on February 28, 2007, 10:13:55 AM
WAs Atlas ever specifically mentioned as being stronger? I can't recall. Even as a mortal Hercules took over for Atlas so Atlas could have a rest. Atlas, of course, then refused to go back and Hercules (or Herakles for his Greek name, Hercules is actually the Roman adaption of his name) had to trick him to reshoulder the world. I don't think Dionysus or Artemis et. al. could have shouldered the world. Now technically, Atlas was a Titan, not a god (the son of Iapetus (one of the original 12 Titans) and Clymene (daughter of 2 of the original 12; Oceanus and Tethys). If Herc wasn't as strong as the gods, even as a mortal, he must have been really close.

I'll have to dig out my mythology books; I haven't really read them in a long time. You might be right. Outside of Hercules, brute physicality and muscles was usually highlighted less than fighting prowess and cunning. That makes it hard to judge. Not to mention that many of the stories have multiple tellings. I think Hesiod's works are still considered the best for classic Greek mythology.

DK

However, Heracles only held the sky for a short time; Atlas held it for a long, long time.

And the distinction between Titans and gods is a little vague. Zeus, Hera, Posiedon, Hestia, Demeter, and Hades were the children of two Titans, too...

gdaybloke · February 28, 2007, 01:26:15 PM

For the record, just getting back to the Herc being stronger than anyone on Tony's side... She-Hulk's stronger nowadays.

After being recruited by the Living Tribunal, Shulkie went to the planet Skardon to help dethrone Tryco Slatterus, also known as the Champion - one of the elders of the universe. After being pounded by Tryco (after he'd taken out Surfer, Drax, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator and Warlock in the ring), she started preparing for a rematch by getting buff as all heck in her Jen Walters form, since as She-Hulk she's exponentially stronger.

End result is, once she returned to Earth, she had to let Herc win an arm-wrestling match to salve his ego.

All that said, Herc's still a much more accomplished and talented warrior... but Shulkie's stronger at this point.