Any real advantage to Windows Vista ?

[stumpy]

Well, we've reached the point where one must actually be careful when buying a new PC or it will likely be shipped with Windows Vista as the OS. This is the stage before it becomes an actual annoyance to get it with any other Windows, followed by it actually being a pain in the rump.

At least some of the downsides are obvious. For FF and FFvT3R players, we have no sign that our games will work under Vista. At some point, someone will end up with a new Vista-equipped PC and hopefully post that the games work under it or (my cynical side says this is more likely) post that he is having trouble getting the games to run. In addition, it looks like Vista is even more of a memory hog than previous Windows versions. Microsoft is recommending 0.5 GB of RAM for Vista Basic (1 GB for premium/business/ultimate) and I think XP used to recommend 128 MB. Obviously Vista isn't using all of that RAM itself, but it is still a 4x increase. I know my applications aren't using any less RAM, so an increase for Windows is not a good thing.

So, is there any real upside? I'm not saying there is none, but I am having a tough time finding it. For me, there is no advantage to further OS integration of firewalls or antiviral software. I don't have any need for more out-of-the-box multimedia capability. Any stylistic changes to the of the desktop/UI are utterly without value to me. Meanwhile, there may be some aspects of the interface that are more intuitive or whatever, but I already know my way around what I have.

This is really seeming like an expensive downgrade that's getting harder to avoid.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

95 was the last Windows version that I actually considered a genuine upgrade.

XP crashes less, but isn't that big of a deal otherwise.

Vista.  I don't care and I don't want to have to upgrade especially if they're breaking older software.  I like older software.

[crimsonquill]

From what I'm reading in the dozens of computer magazines that I thumb through in waiting rooms and book stores... Windows Vista is mainly designed for multi-tasking users who wanted a far more "visual" upgrade to their operating system - plus it's the only way you can use the Direct X 10 upgrade. It's become a memory hog from the huge 3D graphical upgrade that the system forces upon you. Think of all of the unneeded graphics tools and toys that XP gave us upon it's introduction - full desktop mods (wallpapers, sounds, icons, pointers) and of course Direct X becoming a core element of the whole system. Demos have shown that it has "floating windows" which you can drag forward and open with full DVD playback in a live "window pane" plus fully animated wallpapers and 3D rendered icons if you want them.

I've been told that it's far more "backwards" compatable then XPSP2 was because the new OS allows you to open a virtual shell to play older games within (far less buggy and system dependent then the XP "rollback" options). Hence the bigger memory requirements for using Vista and almost needing to upgrade your required system memory to 4 Gigs just to keep up with all of the "Next Gen" Vista games.

The next biggest plus to Vista is that for those who download episodes of Heroes, Jericho, etc. the built-in DVD creator/burner is far more versitle then any Nero or in-store software that XP has at the moment.

I think the biggest "oops" that Windows Vista currently has is the miscode in Microsoft Office which doesn't set the auto Daylight Savings Time correctly and might throw off your calander for 6 months because some coding idiot didn't set a manual setting in the Vista System Tools. I'm sure that this and many fixes shall be promptly addressed in the next month or so.

My PC is having many weird keyboard and graphics card glitches but thanks to a full Platinum warrenty that I got with the system - I shall be recieving a new upgraded replacement since my current model is no longer sold by them any more. I'm told that my new PC doesn't ship with Vista because of their "game model" that OS has to be 100% fully compatable with all of the popular games. Whatever that means.

- CrimsonQuill

[Lunarman]

Me, I'll be waiting to Vista SP2 when they've got rid of all those bloody bugs and it actually works

[Symon]

The only game related things I've heard so far are that you can expect a 10-20% performance hit, even with more memory and that older games do not run.

Morrowind apparently has some serious issues on Vista. It of course uses the same (4.0.0.2) Nif version as FF.

[stumpy]

That is ominous. I wonder if that is a broader problem with the rendering engine and Vista or something more specific to Morrowind?

I have also heard (and it looks like I'll have to spend an afternoon sometime trying to figure out what's really going on with this) that Vista's DRM implementation is a real disaster, to the point where I would pretty much have to boycott Vista even if I never played any PC games.

Regarding our favorite superhero RPG: I miss the days when I worked with a bunch of techies where, by now, one of them would have installed Vista on a machine just to test it and I could have done a test install of FF/FFvT3R to see where things stood.

BTW, I saw a somewhat humourous Vista Simulator post on one of the tech blogs I infrequent.

[Epimethee]

It's shocking how much Vista is a non-event. You'd think that the first major mainstream update to the OS used by ~93% of everyone would create a bigger buzz. Hey, even Windows Me had more media coverage! But then again when the main feature promised in Vista (the BeOS-style database file system) isn't part of it* and you're left to tout "improved parental controls" to sell it... Ahem.

So far, the few reviews I've read were looking as if the Vista monster wasn't due for another year. Of course, the fact is that they all ended along the lines of "To hell with this. I'm getting a Mac."... and FWIW, DRM for DRM, I'll be joining them (I just wish Bootcamp would support XP SP1 for FF1).

*Actually, IIRC, that feature was promised for 2000 way back in 1994, IIRC correctly an article of the time title "The Road to Cairo". :P

[Symon]

"The road to Cairo" rings a bell, so I think you're right.

I'm not the biggest fan of Microsoft as many of you know, but I do think they have seriously dropped the ball on Vista. I can't think of anything in it that sells it to _anyone_; except of course, the crippling DRM that is very popular with big media companies but no one else.

Of course, this board still does have it techies (me for one). It's just that I opted out of Microsoft-land as much as possible a long time ago. I'd try it out at work, except my company has no plans to roll out Vista unless it has to.

[stumpy]

It's just that I opted out of Microsoft-land as much as possible a long time ago.

Just curious: how are you playing FF/FFvT3R. I'll admit, there isn't really much personal stuff I need to do under Windows, but that is sort of a big item for me.

[Symon]

I retain a high-performance machine loaded with Win98SE and the unofficial Win98 service pack. It plays the games I like (FF, FF3R, Civ3, Morrowind, Fallout, Fallout2 etc).

They don't make games for me anymore so the fact that new games won't load (if they did, I bet some would run) is not an issue.

As it happens, many XP only games will run on 98SE or can be made to. Oblivion (not that I am interested in it) only needs a dll change I believe.

[Juanjete]

So.. FFVTR runs in windows Vista?

[stumpy]

So.. FFVTR runs in windows Vista?

No one has said so, yet. So few people here have any interest in using Vista that it may take a while to find out. (Though UE might be buying a Vista laptop soon.)

[m101969]

Just a note  :ff: char tool does not work in vista, as the 3D models, if it even loads, are broken into floating pieces.  That is why I am  :banghead: working on this  :angry: friggin' xp multiboot partitioning.  Which, by the way is not working.  :rolleyes: Otherwise Vista looks alot like a linux OS, visually speaking.  And the do you authorize this action? thing gets a bit tedious....  It's actually even worse than in the Apple commercial.

Peace!

Mike

[JKCarrier]

Just a note  :ff: char tool does not work in vista, as the 3D models, if it even loads, are broken into floating pieces.

I get that effect in XP too. Very weird.

[m101969]

As far as Vista goes, I had no indication that FF and FFv3R would work on it, and the driver downloads to re-install xp are mostly 40-100 mb which takes forever when you suffer from a financial need for dialup.  The "upgrade" came with my new PC which I bought because the old one kept crapping out.  However, the real bummer for me is that it took 2 reboots of the factory install to wipe the junk that Geek Squad apparently added to my system when I bought it.  And after 3 attempts, I am just leaving XP as the primary boot, because something is preventing my multiboot partition from working. Too bad I couldn't have waited another 6 months and bought a Mac. 

MS is really starting to PMO, as they seem to only prevent people purchasing their systems from using them without hassle and the constant watching eye of big brother.  i.e.:The error reporting claims not to collect private data, but when I showed the contents it listed every website I visited in Vista.  Not that I have anything to hide, but it's none of their friggin' business!

*deep breath*

My vote: NO advantages to Vista if you use your PC for anything other than business.  Just waiting for Longhorn now, so they can charge us monthly to operate the equipment we run.  Then, games or not, I'm converting fully to Linux or Mac.

'Scuse me, I ramble on...

[stumpy]

Sorry to hear it was such a pain to get things going. Did you try to install :ff: or :ffvstr: (the games themselves) on your Vista system.

Out of curiosity, what is the Vista advantage for businesses? From what I am hearing, most businesses are sticking to XP (that's largely why it's easier to buy a new PC with XP if you look at "business systems"). And, MS will support for XP for many more years.

[Epimethee]

In case anyone is interested in the supposed featured of the V. monster, Ars Technica has the first of a series or articles on Vista: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/pretty-vista.ars
I'd say it might not quite up to Ars' usual standards (i.e., you won't be able to replace Vista's lead architect while he's on vacation) and it's suffering badly from TMA (Too Many Acronyms) ; still an enlightening read.

[Symon]

Out of curiosity, what is the Vista advantage for businesses? From what I am hearing, most businesses are sticking to XP (that's largely why it's easier to buy a new PC with XP if you look at "business systems"). And, MS will support for XP for many more years.

I can answer this one. As some know, I'm an IT Manager for a publishing company (in the UK).

For those that don't know, the usual PC for business use is very different from a Game or home PC:-

Often no sound card, almost always no speakers or other multi-media frills. (You need sound with MS Excel?)
Barely adequate memory.
The cheapest graphics card you can get, often an on-board.
Often a slow (by the standards of the day) processor.
A network card is a must though.
No CD/DVD-Rom burner, just a reader.

Totally unsuitable for games, but cheap, because you'll want lots of them, one on every desk. The budget goes on the software.

You'll note that the machine I have roughed out is unsuitable for Vista. Vista requires the typical office PC actually have a top-flight games machine spec. Yes business are totally uninterested in spending that much extra per seat to enable a 3D one way rolodex type thingy for open windows, especially when most Office workers are unlikely to have even three windows open at once.

Vista has nothing in it of use to the average commercial user.

[Juanjete]

Tested: I install FFVTR and mod tools in a Vista Ultimate and works fine.

[Epimethee]

Great news! Thanks Juanjete.

[m101969]

Ok ok--

So I am a blithering idiot ;) .  I rant and rant only to discover...it wasn't Vista itself after all.  You see, it appears that I purchased a returned PC.  So either the person who purchased it first inadvertantly acquired the win32/Parite and win32/parite.b viruses, or installed them on purpose to give the new MS OS trouble for someone else (me, as it turns out) so as to fuel anti MS feelings.  The thing even infected the factory install of Norton, so it could not update and detect the little beast.

Well it worked, at first.  Now I have cleaned the whole thing up, and (again) reinstalled from a freshly formatted drive  :P .  So far, Vista seems to be working nicely.

I will see about a Real answer to Stumpy's question in a week or so, after I have some time to check Vista out a bit.  I do notice the upgrades on IE make it more or less a Firefox piracy.  Way to go Billy and co.  You finally stole something useful for the first time since adding color to the original MacIntosh OS design!  :lol:

Thanks to all who responded to my vicious messages, as I was 4 weeks into frustration over being unable to use my new duo core PC other than to delete and install programs.

Note to those of you with websites:  You may want to check them for the infection, in case I inadvertantly spread it when visiting.  It did not kill my browser until yesterday (03/27/07).

[life_matrix]

catwhowalksbyhimself wrote:

95 was the last Windows version that I actually considered a genuine upgrade.

XP crashes less, but isn't that big of a deal otherwise.

Vista.  I don't care and I don't want to have to upgrade especially if they're breaking older software.  I like older software.

Amen to that! :thumbup: I agree 100%: Long live classic software!

Instead of fixing the serious bugs in the 95/98/ME family, MS moved on to 2K and XP - breaking a lot of older software along the way. Now the MS flock is moving on again, except that I don't think they're moving forward.

I don't expect to ever "upgrade" to Vista. In fact, I'm still using Windows 98SE. Though, I am using it with the Unofficial Win 98SE Service Pack 2.1a. And for 98SE users I also recommend the "98SE2ME Upgrade Solution" from AXCEL216 / MDGx. (If you happen to own a WinME install disk.) These two packages solves a lot of 98 problems and updates the files with those from ME and elsewhere.

Just recently I installed Xubuntu (Linux) to see if I can use it. I'm still learning the ropes, so it's too early to tell.

[m101969]

I will see about a Real answer to Stumpy's question in a week or so, after I have some time to check Vista out a bit. 

So, this is what I discovered:  Vista (Home Basic) which came with my new PC is virtually useless to a gamer.  It is slower, and flags most any game / 3d application I try to run as having "known compatibility issues with Vista."  Ultimate may be a different story entirely, but it will be some time before I can aford to find out.  Peace and best wishes.  Hope all goes well.  I am back to XP, or possibly following Catman's advice and updating 98. 

[m101969]

I will see about a Real answer to Stumpy's question in a week or so, after I have some time to check Vista out a bit. 

Ultimate may be a different story entirely, but it will be some time before I can aford to find out. 

Wow,

"I are a good spellar..." :doh:  And my grammar rocks, too.

That should be afford.  Apparently, I can't even afford to use spellcheck...  :lol:

[happymelv]

Tested: I install FFVTR and mod tools in a Vista Ultimate and works fine.

I upgraded XP to Vista in February and I'm actually liking Vista. However I do admit am pretty miffed a lot of my old programs don't work.

I dusted off FF and FFvsTR and tried installing them again, however they don't seem to run. Am at work, so can't say exactly what the error was. Might just be my comp and probably need to update a few drivers.

Playing CoH still, however mothing beats FF for all the mods that I've downloaded through the years! It still rocks my sock! *slavers at the thought of playing it again*

[Symon]

Interestingly, Dell, having withdrawn all options to buy a computer with XP, have re-instated some due to 'overwhelming demand'.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/20/dell_offers_xp_again/

[Cyber Burn]

Unfortunately, the new PC that I'm stuck with has Vista as the operating system, and if I'm reading everything correctly here, that means I no longer get to play  :ff: or  :ffvstr:.   Am I correct in this assumption?   Can I at least install the games (with the appropriate character tool) so that I can skin? Also, what about NifSkope?   Is that workable yet with Vista?

[Lunarman]

you can play FFVTTR fine i think :)

[bevo]

for 235 buck I am deeply sorry i bought vista, 95% of my programs didnt work anymore. Plus you have to call and get permission any time you want to reinstall it and go through 20 questions and they yell at you in hindu. The best system I have had is this winxp 64 pro. Clean and simple, runs fast. I would stay away from vista.

[Shogunn2517]

Just to let anyone and everyone reading this, Freedom Force can run on Windows Vista.  I am running it right now.  Infact, I can see it in the bottom window.  I actually think Vista is pretty cool.  If it's anything more than cosmetics, I'm not entirely too certain, but I do know I heard many complain of problems with Vista and as of yet, I have had problems(crashes mainly), but nothing major.  As for Freedom Force, yes, it does work.  Although, initially, I didn't think it would.  I got a similar message many probably got with compatibility issues, but those were appearently resloved after I found and downloaded patch 1.2 and patch 1.3 and from what I can tell, it plays as well as to be expected.  In fact, better than what my machine previously did for me.  It might have been tech problems, but there were certain animations and fx I could not see previously.  Now, for whatever reason, I finally see a lot of these fx for the first time.

So, yes.  It works.  The only question would be with FFvTTR, which to my knowledge is more high-end and reportedly to download and play successfully, I assume that works with Vista as well.

Now, I don't know if they've had time to work out bugs with Vista or what in the 7 or 8 months it's been released, but this works.