Industry Death

[Spe-Dog]

I was talking about this with a friend the other day and I would like to get your thoughts on the matter:

Do you think that the exclusivity of the comic book industry will cause it's eventual demise?

I have talked to professionals at the cons and my group of Hi Fidelity-style comic book shop friends and we all seem to come to that consensus.  The field is hard to break into and is starved for new talent.  So why is it so needlessly hard?  Why do the publishers make it seem as though they don't need fresh ideas and people when it is absolutely essential for the medium to continue?  Joe Q, while at a Wizardworld clinic many moons before he became E-I-C, mentioned as much.  He said the system, in a way, helps them weed out the people that are not really cut out to be writers or artists in comics from the people that can hit a deadline.  However, the system has to be broken if we are faced with months and months of delays on certain books and in Marvel's own case, delays over a year on some titles (don't worry, DC, you are catching up pretty quickly...yes, I am talking to you Messrs Kubert, Kubert, and Heinberg).  The constant recycling of creators and ideas can't go on or the dearth of imagination and invigoration will just cause the whole thing to come crashing down.  What's your take?

[crimsonquill]

I'd personally say that the industry as a whole needs to be retooled a bit just because the smaller independent companies are providing the life blood which keeps the machine running. Think of how many writers and artists of these "new hits" are being hired on for limited series or short term contracts by Marvel or DC to help them find a new "hip" identity. I'd say that seeing comic books completely fold up and vanish would happen around the same time that Microsoft/Bill Gates decides that retirement looks very appealing and donated all of his money to the government to spend on peaceful weapon alternatives.

I think that the moment for the comic book industry to be changed is already occuring with the introduction of digital comics and the "ultimate" alternative modern takes on comic characters. Us old school collectors are grinding our teeth with the thought of paper comics vanishing as well as years and years of stories by our favorite companies. We need to remember that Stan Lee and all of the other "great creators" never really planned on having nearly endless storylines which contained thousands of characters loved and/or hated by their fans over the years. It's a great legacy to behold but a horrible nightmare to make any sense of if you are a newbie to this medium.

Now that comic books have crossed into the age of multi-media things need to be shifted around to a new perspective. Right now we have conflicting universes with the 616 vs The Ultimates which neither make any sense to those "comic virgins" who just walked out of watching Spider-Man 3, Fantastic Four 2, or Ghost Rider for that matter. Those movies are boiled down to a simple story format with a beginning and ending which rarely leave unresolved subplots which litter the comic book worlds like garbage piles. If a movie fails then it can be discounted or exiled to the discount bins until it's forgotten (i.e. New World's Captain America and Punisher movies).

Nobody wants to have the Ultimates universe replace the 616 Universe or the multiverse of DC comics disappear compeletly because that would limit all future writers/artists/editors to follow a set a rules written in stone never to be changed again. Gone would be the "What If" or "Elseworld" tales unless those only existed in their respective titles like Exiles or the like. If a writer came in with a great storyline and then had creative differences with the editors many issues later they would be forced to trash all of the work done like it never happened - no more replacement writers would be allowed unless they followed the same storyline to the letter.

- CrimsonQuill

[MyndVizion]

While I'm not a comic expert by any means (I know just enough about 'em to get me in trouble with people who know more than me) I do feel that the comic industry needs to expand it's creative base. The ideas coming out of comics is pretty flat nowadays. A reason why I've turned to reading old school comics again such as Avengers and X-Men.

Here's me using my limited comic knowledge to get in trouble.

I've grown tired of seeing original Marvel characters "re-imagined".  Take 1 part original Marvel Character, change the gender, keep the costume similar to the original, change the name slightly (or not your choice), and release.

For example we've got: Male/Female Wolverine, Male/Female Captain America, Male/Female Hulk (though She Hulk is awesome), Male/Female Hawkeye (literally), and Male/Female Spider-Man.  Wasn't there even a point in time where there was a Male/Female Thing???? Was it Carol Danvers that became all rocky-like and even ran around with the Fantastic Four???

At least the comic industry isn't the only entertainment biz that suffers from such lack of ideas and freshness. One only has to look at music and movies to realize just how bland entertainment has become.

[starlock]

well i can tell you that 20 years ago there were at least 5 comic stores i could walk to and numerous ones i could take a bus to,10 years ago there were like 3,now  there is only 1 that i can walk to,i went to the point of telling the owner that if he at any time feels he has to quit or give up the store that i would like to buy him out (i am not rich nor wealthy)

the point being that i used to cherish that walk to the comic store with my dad or mom and the feeling i had when i was allowed to go alone with friends was priceless. I want that for me and my children (i have none so far) and i will do whatever i can to see that it does

[chuckles]

For example we've got: Male/Female Wolverine, Male/Female Captain America, Male/Female Hulk (though She Hulk is awesome), Male/Female Hawkeye (literally), and Male/Female Spider-Man.  Wasn't there even a point in time where there was a Male/Female Thing???? Was it Carol Danvers that became all rocky-like and even ran around with the Fantastic Four???

That "Thing-Chick" was Sharon Ventura I believe.
I still prefer reading my older (paper) comics. I'm so far behind on comic book events it's not funny. :wacko:
I don't think the industry will vanish, just that we comic book readers will no longer support it like we have in the past. To be honest I like a lot of the artwork in the newer titles, but I just have a hard time following the storylines. At times I find myself disagreeing with certain things, and refusing to read a given title, like the whole "Onslaught" thing. As a kid the X-Men were my favorite comic book team, and the Beast was the greatest of them. But now there are way too many "X" titles for me to keep up with.
I'm always comparing today's heroes with their 1970's versions, and it's not fair on my part. It's a completely different world now, and the demands of the industry on it's talent has shifted from "Fun and fancy free" to "Meet the deadline". I'll always love the medium, but I have a hard time understanding it.
I started collecting comics in '68, and in an attemp to keep current I bought large quanties of comics in the 90's that I've yet to read.
Since I've moved back to Idaho I've found that my nearest comic shop is just about 180 miles away.

My friends used to live at local comic shops, but now most kids would rather play video games than read anything. My neighbor's son has heard of comics, but never owned one. He just gives me that "are you a green monkey with two heads" look when I talk about comics.:blink:

[BentonGrey]

When comics were drawn from the newstands and put in dark, creepy stores, it was a blow to the medium that it has never recovered from.  Now, don't get me wrong, my local store is neither dark nor creepy, but that is the reputation that they have.  A great number of them are worthy of the stereotype, sadly.  My wife won't even go into any comic shop except our local one, because she is creeped out by them.  So, the only people who frequent these shops are hard cores fans like us, especially these days when it usually involves an odyssey just to find one.  You're pitching to a smaller market, and they aren't available to those who should be the primary market for comics...young people. 

Web-based initiatives are a step in the right direction, but I think bringing comics back to more accesible places would help a lot.  Comics available in bookstores is another good thing, but we have the further difficulty that most modern comics I wouldn't let my kids read (if I had kids, that is).  We don't really have a balance between mature (meaning complex, not the prejorative meaning it has taken on in modern culture) storylines and kid-friendly content.

[Dweomer Knight]

While I'm not a comic expert by any means (I know just enough about 'em to get me in trouble with people who know more than me) I do feel that the comic industry needs to expand it's creative base. The ideas coming out of comics is pretty flat nowadays. A reason why I've turned to reading old school comics again such as Avengers and X-Men.

Here's me using my limited comic knowledge to get in trouble.

I've grown tired of seeing original Marvel characters "re-imagined".  Take 1 part original Marvel Character, change the gender, keep the costume similar to the original, change the name slightly (or not your choice), and release.

For example we've got: Male/Female Wolverine, Male/Female Captain America, Male/Female Hulk (though She Hulk is awesome), Male/Female Hawkeye (literally), and Male/Female Spider-Man.  Wasn't there even a point in time where there was a Male/Female Thing???? Was it Carol Danvers that became all rocky-like and even ran around with the Fantastic Four???

At least the comic industry isn't the only entertainment biz that suffers from such lack of ideas and freshness. One only has to look at music and movies to realize just how bland entertainment has become.

My comic knowledge is about the same as yours.

I agree that simply creating an "opposite sex version" of a standard character is pretty uninspiring.  If they feel a need for more female characters then I would rather see new characters rather than a modification of an old.  In fact, I would rather see no new character at all than a token female in another hero's outfit.

I had forgotten about the female thing (though I can't remember if it was Carol Danvers or not). Female becomes Female-Thing and Thing becomes Superspikey-Ultra-Thing (I think they were exposed to the same radiation that created the Fantastic 4 in the first place).  I remember we had grey Hulk at the same time 'cause Superspikey-Ultra-Thing kicked the crap out of him.

I agree with Spe-Dog and crimsonquill.  Though I'm not a big comic reader I do know that it's difficult to get into a story or care about a character when you only get 2 or 3 issues over an entire year.  It's also frustrating when, to fully understand title "A", you have to read titles "B", "C" and at least part of "D" for it to make sense (and that doesn't even take into account the high possibility that "D" contradicts something in "A" and that "C" is a piece of crap).  crimsonquill hit the nail on the head, I think.  If you've been reading and following these titles for years and years then you have a great understanding of the rich (if inconsistent) history of these characters (which makes understanding current comic events easier); but if not, then it just looks like a big mess.

I've tried to get into various titles over the years but I always got frustrated when between issues 33 and 34 (for example), suddenly half the team has new powers and/or outfits (all easily explained by reading Iron Man 240, X-Men 313-325, Thor 236 and the entire Rise of Shadow min-series).  Screw that.  And even if you do get them, you're more confused than ever because you haven't been reading Iron Man the X-Men or Thor and the majority of the story is meaningless to you.  

Part of me thinks it's great that there is a (somewhat) coherent universe rather than just a bunch of titles that have no effect on each other, but another part of me is upset that I'm never going to fully understand what's going on or why certain characters act the way they do.  Information is too often spread out over too much time over too many titles.

I'm actually luckier than some.  I was never a big comic reader (the only titles I ever collected were Dr. Strange and Freak Force (all 14 issues of it)) but my many of my friends were; mainly Marvel.  So I've always had at least a passing understanding of what was going on in the Marvel universe (less so for DC) and a moderate understanding of how the Marvel universe "works" (Eternity, Death, The Living Tribunal, The Elders of the Universe, The Inbetweener, blah, blah, blah).

I think there will always be print comics.  New talent may bring freshness to the industry but we'll always be suffering through canonical inconsistincies and numerous retcons.

DK

[Talavar]

The future of the comic industry in my opinion, are the trades.  Sure, actual comic book stores are creepy most of the time, and pretty rare, but the comic/manga trade paperback and hardcover section of most Chapters/Indigo's (Canada's large book store monopoly, which every city of any size has one) are pretty large actually.  The sales model for comics are what need to change, with the monthly schedule probably dying at some point.  Many titles, particularly Vertigo titles, sell only modestly as a monthly, but sell significantly as trades.

[BentonGrey]

The problem with the book store selection is it is 90% manga, 5% DC/Marvel, 5% something else.

[Dweomer Knight]

The problem with the book store selection is it is 90% manga, 5% DC/Marvel, 5% something else.

Very true.  And of that 5%, much of it is very old storylines.  Not that still being able to buy those is bad but if you want the recent trades, you generally have to go the comic shops.

DK

[BentonGrey]

I actually have the opposite problem, I'm looking for old stories (although, I assume that you're meaning a different gauge of age).  I'm looking for the archives, which they never have, but that's because I don't like the modern stories.

[lugaru]

You guy's are probably going to throw rocks at me but I welcome the advent of digital comics. In my opinion comic book shops are going the way of the record store (tragic really, I love comic book shops) but then again I feel that high quality digital comics that are sold cheaper and are viewable on a large variety of systems would rock. Think of it... let's say right now I release "hero man", an indy comic that you can only find through online retailers and at the back of comic shops. It wont make much money. On the other hand let's say I put hero man online at 50c a download, keep the majority of the profits AND make my comic available on the global scale by eliminating shipping... that could work.

In this comic book utopia that will probably never happen (why are the big companies so reluctant to try it?) any drunk college kid could decide to binge on back issues of spider-man after watching the movie on cable or a serious comic nerd could instantly get his hands on that obscure issue of superman and read about the origin of a villain he is facing.

Think of comics with alternate language tracks (change the language in the balloons) and other sweet extras (sketches, scripts, comments) that would make your normal issue really bloated. Think of having it pre-loaded in a steam style console a few minutes after it is released. Think of this trend spreading and being able to read translated manga the same day that your buddies in japan get to read it. Heck, think of groups of talented teens making a few hundred bucks (or maybe thousands) because their comic just so happened to become a viral success and tons of people downloaded it.

In my opinion the comic industry is not dead. It was REALLY bad in the mid to late 90's and it somehow pulled through thanks to films and better quality stories and art (here is where Im expecting to get hit by a rock or two) and now that comics are what they are they just need a new format. Will this ruin collectability or the good old bathroom reading experience? Maybe, but that would only happen if this meassure is wildly succesful and it somehow saved comics.


edit: forgot to mention why this idea exites me. I have money, finally... I just happen to live in the city and therefore have no space. A couple of my next wave issues are already damaged, most of my favorite comics are back in Mexico and frankly I cant see myself lugging around boxes of comics all my life. Also it could lead to a healthier industry with more variety, you know, like in asia where you see sport, cooking, romance, music and all other sorts of comics.

[stumpy]

Seems like protecting copyrights would be a big issue with downloadable comics. At least for the big publishers and titles. No major comic company is going to want to release an issue online if they think an hour later people will be downloading it for free, likely without the ads. As long as a large part of the population doesn't think it is stealing (or doesn't care or has some half-baked rationalization for it) when it takes for free something someone is trying to sell, then the publishers are justified in resisting the trend.

For smaller outfits, there may still be an advantage. If the book hasn't gotten very popular, it is less likely to be pirated and the lower barriers to entry (e.g. distribution and retail overhead) mean a book might turn a profit even if it doesn't have that many readers.

BTW, I would love to have my comics all as files on a hard drive somewhere instead of in boxes, many of which are badly sorted after several moves. But, there is also much appeal to being able to read comics when I am not in front of a PC.

[UnkoMan]

I've read some comics on the computer, and let me tell you... it just isn't the same to me. If I like one I've read enough I will actually go out and try and find it. I would much rather have it in hard form than digital.

At the same time... I can't stand most comic stores. I actually forcefully dragged a girl into one today. After we left (without buying anything) she said it wasn't that bad. Not claustophobic and the nerds weren't all creepy. However all it made me realize was how much they are about merchandising instead of actual comics. I mean sure the statues and toys and whatever are neat, but geez. Not to mention, everything is super expensive, and they try to phase out the back issues section in order to have trades.

I do go to this one place, though. It deals only in second hand. They have some newer stuff, but that doesn't matter to me. I'm all about getting single back issues. What does this mean to the industry? It means I don't pay them crap. At the same time... as dissapointed as I'd be if comics suddenly stopped getting made... I'd still have an abundance of material to get.

Of course, that won't ever happen. There's lots of popular indie stuff, and I'm sure companies would scramble to fill the gap left by DC and Marvel. To be honest... it might be a welcome change. Maybe we can start having other genre comics be popular, like when EC became the big shot. I think the people are begging for a break from super heroes. And then, when they come back 10-20 years later... they will be new and exciting again!

[lugaru]

Stumpy: the problem is that people are already pirating comics now, but the sooner the big companies take initiative the better their odds of having some control over the market. Think of DVD's for example... DVD piracy is minimal because you cant count on all the great special features and such. Music piracy is still pretty big but it was because nobody took mp3's seriosly until it was way too late... and most digital music companies allow people to GORGE on music because people assume that digital music should be super cheap. Otherwise reading a comic on your computer is not GREAT but its not terrible either, I used to be really hooked to marvels digital comics until they nerfed it (you used to be able to read dozens of issues for free).

Unko: that is why I am ambivalent about comic shops demise. Places like newbury comics have become little more than hot topics... tons of dvds, music, toys, gags and even clothes with 3 racks of comics. For me if the place dosent have longboxes, it is not a comic shop. And those places get more and more rare... Still Im all for indie stuff. Right now I love genre comics, some of my favorites are Frankenstein and also Shaolin Cowboy by burly man entertainment (the Watchkowski brothers comics), I love American Virgin and Exterminators from Vertigo (as non super heroic as possible btw) and while I get most of my superhero comics from Marvel they also produce some cool stuff that are outside of the box, especially on their Max line. Then again one could argue that Im getting too old to enjoy superhero comics but even my most mature faze rarely lasts a week, then Im geeking out again over colossus dating kitty pryde and spider-man having a crossover with invincible.

[GhostMachine]

I think the exclusivity of comics isn't what is going to kill the industry; I think the lack of professionalism and the anything for a buck mentality in the industry is what's going to kill the industry if things don't change.

I've been visiting a particular writer\artist's forums lately (won't say who, because I know a lot of eyes will roll), and one thing that was brought up a while back is the fact that books shipping late because writers or artists take their own time to get it together and that the companies don't seem to care is hurting the comics industry. Look at All-Star Batman and Robin, for instance. And at Wonder Woman, which is being written by a tv writer and was supposed to be a monthly book but was changed to a bi-monthly schedule between issues #1 and #2. Want to go back farther? Okay.....Battle Chasers. Books running late because their creators are lazy or have too many irons in the fire to get their stuff out on time should NOT be acceptable. If this was the 80's, or even the early 90's, those creators probably wouldn't have jobs.

You want to see some real professionalism from an artist who actually cares about fans? Adam Hughes posted on the board I mentioned earlier (and no, its not his board) and said that he won't even let DC so much as solicit All-Star Wonder Woman until he has the first twelve issues done so that it ships on time and fans don't have to wait. That, my friends, is class.

Books NEVER used to ship late unless the creator was sick or something; I don't think Stan Lee or Jack Kirby EVER had a book ship late, and look how many they were doing at once. But nowadays you have a creator working on ONE book who can't get his stuff together and get it out on time.

If you really want to know what's really hurt the comics industry the most, I'd have to say it was the speculator market crap that went down in the late-80's\early 90's and the creation of the Direct Market. Comics would be more popular if you could still find them in convenience, drug and grocery stores.

Funny Spe-Dog mentioned Joe Q, because he's the worst EIC that Marvel has ever had.

Another thing that's killing the industry? Focusing on who is working on a particular book more than focusing on the characters. When you put emphasis on the fact that a certain hot writer is working a particular title and don't take measures to ensure that the characters get enough attention, you're bound to have a severe drop in sales when the creator in question leaves the title. A writer or artist should be hired with the intent to get fans interested in the book enough to keep reading when they leave, not to boost sales temporarily. I, for one, would rather see an actual comic writer like John Byrne, Geoff Johns or Kurt Busiek on a book than a Hollywood writer like Josh Whedon (even though Whedon is an actual fan), and frankly, I'd rather see a comics reader with no professional experience whatsoever on a book than a writer who doesn't try to remain true to the spirit of the characters and cares more about telling his own stories even if they don't jibe with continuity and screw things up (ie, JMS's work on Spider-Man) or portray characters completely out of character (see most Civil War books).

And editors and editors in chief should NOT be fanboys. That's what I think is wrong with Marvel, because it certainly seems that fanboys are running the show.

I also think comics cost too much, and that TPBs or online comics will eventually replace mainstream comics. I'd rather pay $9.99 for a black and white manga book that has 180 to 240 pages than pay $2.99 for a color comic that has around 22 pages. There's a lot of good quality manga out there.

It really ticks me off that the companies seem to care more about making a quick buck off a hot name than making sure books ship on time. Its disrespectful to the books themselves and to the fans, and if I was a publisher I sure wouldn't stand for it.

[MyndVizion]

I've found this thread to be most interesting.  A few months ago I picked up the entire collection of Avengers and X-Men in pdf format online (www.gitcorp.com). I think they now have Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and I think Captain America is due to be out soon (apparently they have licensing from Marvel to do this type of thing).

Anyway, I've been enjoying these old comics immensely.  The storylines and character development is a bit cheesy by today's standards, but there's something these old comics still have that today's comics lack. Fun.  You can tell that the creators were having fun making these things. Their fun and enthusiasm for what they were doing shines through.  The other nice thing about 'em - the stories are central to one comic and were not told in 5 different titles.  The other "neat" thing about these comics is the fact that the pdfs still retain the original advertising.  It's fun to be reading one of these comics and seeing an ad for The Dungeons & Dragons cartoon, for example.

The thing that struck me the other day while reading some of these old school comics was the shear meat that was in them.  These things are short stories compared to the comics of today.  22 pages of yesteryear comics takes a bit of time to read through.  22 pages of comics today takes about 2 minutes to read through. Most of the panels take up half a page and there's only about 100 words in the entire thing.  For 3 bucks I get huge panels, anemic word count, and 10 pages of ads.....

I love the digital comic idea.  Of course I'm a bit selfish when it comes to my reasoning. The nearest comic shop is 180 miles from where I live.  I love the idea of being able to buy a comic, download it, and be reading it moments later.

[BentonGrey]

Yeah, as much as I like to have a paper copy in front of me (for books and comics) I have to say that those are on my wishlist.  That is largely due to the fact that, it would cost me a fortune to collect the back issues, and the archived versions are still hovering at a pretty penny.

[Talavar]

I think the exclusivity of comics isn't what is going to kill the industry; I think the lack of professionalism and the anything for a buck mentality in the industry is what's going to kill the industry if things don't change.

I've been visiting a particular writer\artist's forums lately (won't say who, because I know a lot of eyes will roll), and one thing that was brought up a while back is the fact that books shipping late because writers or artists take their own time to get it together and that the companies don't seem to care is hurting the comics industry. Look at All-Star Batman and Robin, for instance. And at Wonder Woman, which is being written by a tv writer and was supposed to be a monthly book but was changed to a bi-monthly schedule between issues #1 and #2. Want to go back farther? Okay.....Battle Chasers. Books running late because their creators are lazy or have too many irons in the fire to get their stuff out on time should NOT be acceptable. If this was the 80's, or even the early 90's, those creators probably wouldn't have jobs.

You want to see some real professionalism from an artist who actually cares about fans? Adam Hughes posted on the board I mentioned earlier (and no, its not his board) and said that he won't even let DC so much as solicit All-Star Wonder Woman until he has the first twelve issues done so that it ships on time and fans don't have to wait. That, my friends, is class.

Books NEVER used to ship late unless the creator was sick or something; I don't think Stan Lee or Jack Kirby EVER had a book ship late, and look how many they were doing at once. But nowadays you have a creator working on ONE book who can't get his stuff together and get it out on time.

If you really want to know what's really hurt the comics industry the most, I'd have to say it was the speculator market crap that went down in the late-80's\early 90's and the creation of the Direct Market. Comics would be more popular if you could still find them in convenience, drug and grocery stores.

Funny Spe-Dog mentioned Joe Q, because he's the worst EIC that Marvel has ever had.

Another thing that's killing the industry? Focusing on who is working on a particular book more than focusing on the characters. When you put emphasis on the fact that a certain hot writer is working a particular title and don't take measures to ensure that the characters get enough attention, you're bound to have a severe drop in sales when the creator in question leaves the title. A writer or artist should be hired with the intent to get fans interested in the book enough to keep reading when they leave, not to boost sales temporarily. I, for one, would rather see an actual comic writer like John Byrne, Geoff Johns or Kurt Busiek on a book than a Hollywood writer like Josh Whedon (even though Whedon is an actual fan), and frankly, I'd rather see a comics reader with no professional experience whatsoever on a book than a writer who doesn't try to remain true to the spirit of the characters and cares more about telling his own stories even if they don't jibe with continuity and screw things up (ie, JMS's work on Spider-Man) or portray characters completely out of character (see most Civil War books).

And editors and editors in chief should NOT be fanboys. That's what I think is wrong with Marvel, because it certainly seems that fanboys are running the show.

I also think comics cost too much, and that TPBs or online comics will eventually replace mainstream comics. I'd rather pay $9.99 for a black and white manga book that has 180 to 240 pages than pay $2.99 for a color comic that has around 22 pages. There's a lot of good quality manga out there.

It really ticks me off that the companies seem to care more about making a quick buck off a hot name than making sure books ship on time. Its disrespectful to the books themselves and to the fans, and if I was a publisher I sure wouldn't stand for it.

Isn't sticking to an artist in question and having delays exactly the opposite of doing anything for a buck?  Late comics hurt sales; if all they cared about was money, the instant a noteworthy artist or writer fell behind schedule they would be replaced.  I don't like the unprofessionalism that causes the delays either, but it's not about making money.

And I care a lot about who is writing a comic.  Certain names make me interested where I might not otherwise be, names like Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Joss Whedon, Brian K. Vaughan, Mike Carey, Ed Brubaker, Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, and even Bendis sometimes. 

[GhostMachine]

I think the exclusivity of comics isn't what is going to kill the industry; I think the lack of professionalism and the anything for a buck mentality in the industry is what's going to kill the industry if things don't change.

I've been visiting a particular writer\artist's forums lately (won't say who, because I know a lot of eyes will roll), and one thing that was brought up a while back is the fact that books shipping late because writers or artists take their own time to get it together and that the companies don't seem to care is hurting the comics industry. Look at All-Star Batman and Robin, for instance. And at Wonder Woman, which is being written by a tv writer and was supposed to be a monthly book but was changed to a bi-monthly schedule between issues #1 and #2. Want to go back farther? Okay.....Battle Chasers. Books running late because their creators are lazy or have too many irons in the fire to get their stuff out on time should NOT be acceptable. If this was the 80's, or even the early 90's, those creators probably wouldn't have jobs.

You want to see some real professionalism from an artist who actually cares about fans? Adam Hughes posted on the board I mentioned earlier (and no, its not his board) and said that he won't even let DC so much as solicit All-Star Wonder Woman until he has the first twelve issues done so that it ships on time and fans don't have to wait. That, my friends, is class.

Books NEVER used to ship late unless the creator was sick or something; I don't think Stan Lee or Jack Kirby EVER had a book ship late, and look how many they were doing at once. But nowadays you have a creator working on ONE book who can't get his stuff together and get it out on time.

If you really want to know what's really hurt the comics industry the most, I'd have to say it was the speculator market crap that went down in the late-80's\early 90's and the creation of the Direct Market. Comics would be more popular if you could still find them in convenience, drug and grocery stores.

Funny Spe-Dog mentioned Joe Q, because he's the worst EIC that Marvel has ever had.

Another thing that's killing the industry? Focusing on who is working on a particular book more than focusing on the characters. When you put emphasis on the fact that a certain hot writer is working a particular title and don't take measures to ensure that the characters get enough attention, you're bound to have a severe drop in sales when the creator in question leaves the title. A writer or artist should be hired with the intent to get fans interested in the book enough to keep reading when they leave, not to boost sales temporarily. I, for one, would rather see an actual comic writer like John Byrne, Geoff Johns or Kurt Busiek on a book than a Hollywood writer like Josh Whedon (even though Whedon is an actual fan), and frankly, I'd rather see a comics reader with no professional experience whatsoever on a book than a writer who doesn't try to remain true to the spirit of the characters and cares more about telling his own stories even if they don't jibe with continuity and screw things up (ie, JMS's work on Spider-Man) or portray characters completely out of character (see most Civil War books).

And editors and editors in chief should NOT be fanboys. That's what I think is wrong with Marvel, because it certainly seems that fanboys are running the show.

I also think comics cost too much, and that TPBs or online comics will eventually replace mainstream comics. I'd rather pay $9.99 for a black and white manga book that has 180 to 240 pages than pay $2.99 for a color comic that has around 22 pages. There's a lot of good quality manga out there.

It really ticks me off that the companies seem to care more about making a quick buck off a hot name than making sure books ship on time. Its disrespectful to the books themselves and to the fans, and if I was a publisher I sure wouldn't stand for it.

Isn't sticking to an artist in question and having delays exactly the opposite of doing anything for a buck?  Late comics hurt sales; if all they cared about was money, the instant a noteworthy artist or writer fell behind schedule they would be replaced.  I don't like the unprofessionalism that causes the delays either, but it's not about making money.

And I care a lot about who is writing a comic.  Certain names make me interested where I might not otherwise be, names like Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Joss Whedon, Brian K. Vaughan, Mike Carey, Ed Brubaker, Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, and even Bendis sometimes. 

You don't get what I am saying; a writer who is an actual comic book writer, like all those names you mentioned, and constantly gets their work out on time, should get preferential treatment over some flash in the pan Hollywood writer whose work is late or a legendary writer who has become lazy and constantly puts out work late. There is no excuse for Frank Miller's lacsidasical approach with All-Star Batman & Robin, for instance, and when a book ends up going bi-monthly because the writer is also working on a tv show, then that writer probably shouldn't be on the book (fortunately, Heinberg isn't supposed to be on Wonder Woman much longer, but I have no idea if the book will remain bi-monthly or not).

[lugaru]

I agree with the ghostly one. While I think that the focus on talent is extremely important (it saved comics from the half baked drivel it was in my teens) if somebody cant deliver on a corporate owned book he should get either fired or have a ghost writer sicked on his butt. Sure, if Kabuki or even Battle chasers is late well too bad, it's creator owned and the company will put up with it for as long as they want to have those hot properties in their stable. But if Hot Writer X is late on something like X-Men or Superman the editors should both sanction him and do whatever it takes to get the book out. And if the rushed book dosent sell, you have an excuse to drop the writer. I mean it's not like there is a shortage of people out there who can do a good capes story.

And I totally agree that comics should be available everywhere. In countries where comics are considered "low" entertainment (or in america several decades ago) you could find every genre at every grocery store. In Mexico I grew up around construction workers who read about drug dealers and wrestlers and maids who read bi-weekly soap operas. The only comics that wherent too common where superhero ones unless you count Fantomas (a master thief with a harem of hotties) and Kaliman (a yogi capable of great esoteric feats) to be superheroic. Now whenever I make trips home Manga (such as Meteorix, a fun dragon ball meets high school comic and Rebelde based on a teen pop band and soap opera) and Hentai (softcore funny books in manga style) are insanely popular but super-heroes just havent hit it big yet.

And Benton: I was thinking about the people far away from comic shops when I started talking about digital distribution. Growing up the odds of getting my hands every issue of a comic where slim, for example it took me years to assemble Weapon X (marvel comics presents) since the issues where never re-published in spanish, although an excelent Trade Paperback did come out ijn spanish containing of course only the Barry Windsor Smith story (with none of the great Paul Gulacy Shana or Sargent Rock Vs Dracula). 

[Zapow]

On the other hand let's say I put hero man online at 50c a download, keep the majority of the profits AND make my comic available on the global scale by eliminating shipping... that could work.

Could is the operative word.

I've had digital downloads of Honor Brigade for $1 on my site for months. I've sold maybe half a dozen.

On the other hand I've sold hundreds of hard copies through that same site. I'm not even counting what has been sold in stores or at conventions. Just online from my site.

Another flaw in your thinking...small press indy titles make very little in the way of profits.

[MyndVizion]

Tangent Man flies out of the sky to land in the middle of the comic fans.

"She-Thing is Sharon Ventura who also took the name Ms. Marvel just before turning all orange and rocky."

Tangent Man bends his knees and rockets himself skyward leaving vapor trail in his wake.

MyndVizion looks around at the others with a quizical expression. "Well at least that's cleared up."

[Dweomer Knight]

Just as an FYI: when I went to the store yesterday to buy all 7 Civil War's, I noticed that they now have on DVD, each for $50:

Every issue of X-Men, including the annuals, through Dec. 2005

They had the exact same thing for the Avengers, the Fantastic Four and Ghost Rider.  There were others too but I'm drawing a blank on what they were.

DK

[Talavar]

You don't get what I am saying; a writer who is an actual comic book writer, like all those names you mentioned, and constantly gets their work out on time, should get preferential treatment over some flash in the pan Hollywood writer whose work is late or a legendary writer who has become lazy and constantly puts out work late. There is no excuse for Frank Miller's lacsidasical approach with All-Star Batman & Robin, for instance, and when a book ends up going bi-monthly because the writer is also working on a tv show, then that writer probably shouldn't be on the book (fortunately, Heinberg isn't supposed to be on Wonder Woman much longer, but I have no idea if the book will remain bi-monthly or not).

Thanks for clearing up what I understand.  Some of those names are dedicated comic writers; some aren't.  If Marvel replaced Joss Whedon because Astonishing X-men was late, which it has been, I'd be mad.  Possibly stop-reading-the-title mad, depending on who replaced him.  I can't remember who writes Young Avengers , but they're TV writers, and it was often late, and awesome.

[JKCarrier]

If Marvel replaced Joss Whedon because Astonishing X-men was late, which it has been, I'd be mad.  Possibly stop-reading-the-title mad

I would definitely drop the book, since Whedon was the only reason I picked it up in the first place.

[GhostMachine]

Talavar and JKCarrier have just provided perfect examples of one of the things I am talking about:

Catering to fans of a particular hot name writer when it should be obvious that the increase in sales will only be short term because fans of that writer are reading and will leave when he or she does and ignoring fans of the actual comic who are more than likely going to stick around is a big mistake. In the case of Astonishing X-Men, Marvel should be trying to attract new longterm readers who are fans of the characters, not Whedonites who are only reading because Joss Whedon is writing the book.

Companies should be cultivating and hiring actual comic book writers instead of putting hot names on the books because that's where the future is. A Hot name writer is only a short term fix, and is certain cases (ie, JMS's Spider-Man work) can severely screw things up if they care more about telling their own stories than being true to the characters and what's gone on before and don't give a damn about past continuity and keeping characters in-character.

[lugaru]

I've had digital downloads of Honor Brigade for $1 on my site for months. I've sold maybe half a dozen.

There's not much left to argue since you are living the life and Im daydreaming little utopias about it except for this: years back nobody would of thought of paying for an MP3 or an RPG pdf or to download a tv episode or movie. Now they are all pretty good markets (the rpg pdf's a bit less of course, role players dont exactly rule pop culture) with variety and where people do better. Direct distribution is also doing a lot for indy game developers.

What Im saying is that if you had some Warner or Marvel sponsored client where a thumbnail of your comic would appear upon release (remaining there until something else is released) and then go to an "indy and self published" section where it would be permanently displayed... that would allow some good sales. Otherwise you are currently an early adopter, seeing dismal digital sales but then again in my opinion years ahead what could be an awesome future.

[Talavar]

How many years will Whedon have been writing Astonishing X-men by the time he leaves it?  3 or 4?  Getting an increase in sales and a lot more people's money for 3 or 4 years is a short term fix, huh?  I started reading comics at all because of Neil Gaiman.  I was a fan of his novels, and decided to read Sandman.  That was about 5 years ago, and now I read quite a lot of comics, with each increase coming with good jumping-on points and titles or writers that interest me.  Attracting new readers to comics means appealing to people who don't read comics.  People who don't read comics aren't going to know that Kurt Busiek's run on X character is awesome right now, because A) they don't know who Kurt Busiek is, and B) because they aren't reading comics to know his current run is good.  People with crossover appeal however, do attract new readers to comics, because they know who those writers are, and they presumably like what they do.

If you know how to attract new, long term readers to comics without hiring expensive, delay prone outside talent, you should let Marvel and DC know.  I bet they'd be interested, because it's not just being true to the characters.  To people who don't read comics, "true to the character" means whatever they know about said character from versions in other media - mainly cartoons or films - versions of the characters that are often very different from what comics readers see as "true to the character."

[Zapow]

In the case of Astonishing X-Men, Marvel should be trying to attract new longterm readers who are fans of the characters, not Whedonites who are only reading because Joss Whedon is writing the book.

Uh...that's pretty narrow thinking. Is it maybe, just maybe, that people who like Whedon writing Astonishing X-Men because it's good writing?

What about longterm readers who are fans of the characters who read the book because Joss Whedon is writing the best X-Men comics in years?

Astonishing is the only X-Men comic I've read regularly since the 90s. Heck, it's the only regular Marvel U book that I buy.