Marvel U: Iron Man's Dystopia

[MyndVizion]

Wrong.  Tony Stark and pretty much all of Marvel's big name heroes opposed the Mutant Registration Act.  That's another reason why the pro-reg side's actions didn't make sense.  A lot of them opposed legislation that was almost exactly the same as the SHRA in the past. 

In fact, Reed Richards testified against the Mutant Registration Act before Congress.

I know, I was going off on a tangent but trying to raise the point that Tony all of a sudden embracing registration, but being against it in a different form doesn't really make sense.  See, he was against the mutant kind but for non-mutant kind. Whatever.  Given that the mutant registration act was not really that much different than this one.  Tony doesn't embrace one form, but does embrace a different form even when both registrations were for the "betterment of civillians".

It just all doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion.

[lugaru]

It just all doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion.

Here's how I view it. The mutant registration act discriminates on people, not their actions. It's like rounding up and tagging all Mexicans without taking into account if they are in this country legally or illegally. In oldschool marvel mutants where everywhere and only a small portion of them used their powers or even had the ability to do anything besides looking weird.

In the superhero case they have already broken the law by putting on a mask and causing massive property damage. The registration act is giving them an option to do this legally, to train so they dont hurt anybody or themselves killed. They arent alone, they can count on the goverment to step in and assist them in upholding the law. The only scary part is them being "drafted" or forced to act against their  principles which of course will happen sooner or latter, otherwise we would have no drama.

While the registration act dosent sound appealing for superheroes I can picture tons of veteran heroes saying "wow, I wish we had this 20 years ago... I get a salary, dental and this cool wrist radio".

[MyndVizion]

The problem with the Mutant Registration Act was that it was trying to force mutants to register with the government so the government could keep tabs on them - all for the protection of the populace.  There was tremendous fear that someone like Professor X could show up at the White House and simply force the President to do something, or someone like Storm showing up in Congress and blasting all of the congressmen/women.  The whole thing was bread out of fear for what mutants could do.

The Superhuman Registration Act (is that it's name?) of Civil War is still like the Mutant Reg Act but it does take a small step forward, in that the superheroes all work for the government now.  It's still designed to 'control' superheroes.

While it would be nice to have a government contract, pull a salary (and later a pension), and fight crime, that only works for a limited number of superheroes. Primarily the ones who have nothing to lose. The registration act in its current form forces heroes to reveal their identity - prime pickings for supervillains.

What happens when Tony Stark is put in a position of battling some supervillain and the whole thing is caught on tv which results in his defeat and his business' stock plummets to 35 cents a share - resulting in him losing billions of dollars?  He'll drink himself silly and think, "Well at least I'm making 20 grand a year on this government salary."  Or when the Avengers need a new spaceship/program that's going to cost a couple billion dollars so they can (yet again) save the world from a Kree/Skrull invasion and the government says, "Too bad we'll never get Congress to authorize it and it's not in the budget."  Or the government does give the money and then tax payers or some upstart presidential nominee gets people all riled up over government spending....

Tony had it made when he was private. He could finance the Avengers with all sorts of experimental prototypes that he would later perfect then turn around and sell. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.

[GhostMachine]

I didn't think about all that....

Hopefully, it does backfire on Stark. I'd like to see some companies who Stark does business with turn out to be run by people who are either anti-reg or who don't approve of how Stark's pro-reg heroes handled things suddenly decide to quit doing business with him.

And I'd love to see some villain or group of villains gain access to the registration database and cause havoc, so that Cap and other anti-reg heroes can throw it back in Stark's face and at the government. It would be cool to see some trouble come out of this and for Stark to offer to help other heroes fix it, only to be told that he caused it and better stay out of it unless he wants his face caved in.

Bottom line is, Tony Stark (and Iron Man, since he's tried to pull off `its someone else wearing the armor when it really isn't' crap before) should be a pariah at best once all is said and done.

If the Fury-controlled LMD is still running around, I hope Fury causes a lot of headaches for Tony.

[lugaru]

I didn't think about all that....

Hopefully, it does backfire on Stark. I'd like to see some companies who Stark does business with turn out to be run by people who are either anti-reg or who don't approve of how Stark's pro-reg heroes handled things suddenly decide to quit doing business with him.

And I'd love to see some villain or group of villains gain access to the registration database and cause havoc, so that Cap and other anti-reg heroes can throw it back in Stark's face and at the government. It would be cool to see some trouble come out of this and for Stark to offer to help other heroes fix it, only to be told that he caused it and better stay out of it unless he wants his face caved in.

Bottom line is, Tony Stark (and Iron Man, since he's tried to pull off `its someone else wearing the armor when it really isn't' crap before) should be a pariah at best once all is said and done.

If the Fury-controlled LMD is still running around, I hope Fury causes a lot of headaches for Tony.

Dude, it's a comic... if anything CAN go wrong then it WILL. I expect much ill to fall upon Tony, registered heroes, non registered heroes and shield. If characters face adversity in comics its to give them a chance to be heroes or at least to make the readers go Oh @#%#! That is why girlfriends die, new sentinels are minted or Lex Luther becomes president.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I like this, its more cerebral at least than the whole bad girls thing,

what's wrong with the "whole bad girls thing"?  I like bad girls!

In all seriousness, I think the reason that so much has been sacrificed character-wise is that the writers are more interested in using the characters to make commentary on current events . . . for better or worse. 

[Spe-Dog]

This guy pretty much nailed it for me.

http://www.comixexperience.com/savblog/2007/02/its-not-that-bad-hibbs-on-civil-war-7.html

Hi, we're Marvel, and we like money!

[crimsonquill]

This guy pretty much nailed it for me.

Same with me too... He narrowed it down to Marvel making everything a "Epic Event" which can be pimped out in reprint after reprint and then double-dip the fans with the hardcover special editions a few months later. Sure, Civil War was set up as a turning point for the 21st Century Marvel comics... but it's apparent that the script initially created was lost as it reached the bullpen as the editorial staff started dividing up the story. Thus we never really got a whole story told at the same time... such as the 2 or 3 tie-in titles coming out this week which needed to be read before Civil War #7 was released. Then technically leaving Civil War an unresolved storyline while forcing the closing of the "event" with the final issue of the series.

As far as Villians go... It's very apparent that Quesada decided to really wipe the slate clean with recycling the same old school criminals getting their butt kicked time after time. The "break out" set up at the beginning of New Avengers got everyone out onto the playfield with some shadowy figure setting it up. The Red Skull has been operating inside the body of a political force using his classic methods of using pawns to set up some bigger plan of his in motion. Kingpin while being locked away in a non-powered prison is making sure that his organization can hurt those who crossed him but not reveal his whole agenda. Most of the C & D level villians were removed from action by the conflicts of Civil War and the return of the Punisher. Jack O' Lantern was upgraded in the style of Demogoblin for use in Ghost Rider's series and I love the change - we need more supernatural villians. Quesada has dropped hints that two characters from the BEYOND! limited series will be key factors in the next few years - one of them will return to be a major hero and the other will bring forth a new age of villians.

The biggest "out-of-character" moment for me was Captian A throwing in the towel after other writers in the side stories set him up as willing to die before that freedom was sacrificed. And they needed to have Steve meet with the speaker of the Stamford Wives Club (what I call them anyway) to realize how much vigilante heroes needed to be trained or watched over to make sure those "mistakes in judgement" don't end in tragedy. Besides I skimmed thru the April/May catalogs which hype that the "Fallen Son" is the death of a major hero which spins out of Civil War... Did I miss something? Heh, Probably in one of the Civil War books not released yet...  <_<

- CrimsonQuill

[Mr. Hamrick]

i still want to know what's wrong with "the whole bad girl thing"

[lugaru]

i still want to know what's wrong with "the whole bad girl thing"

Im going to take that as a "warriors! Come out and play!" on your behalf.

I dunno, It was just the period where I felt that comics were at their most juvenile. All of a sudden every female character ever was a thong wearing "badder than the badguys" vigilante who got their costume torn constantly and existed in a limbo of shower scenes and random debree covering naughty bits.

Dont get me wrong, I love cheesecake within the right context (she-hulk) but when that's the only selling point, I mean man, that's a pretty weak comic book.

I guess this is where somebody trumps me and say's "well not as bad as heroes reborn!"

[Spe-Dog]

Check out Civil War: Frontline #11.


:spoiler:



TONY IS THE BAD GUY!  Welcome to 1984; show us your papers...

[Agent]

No, the writers who didn't bother to learn the character's history and established personality are the bad guys.

[GhostMachine]

Stark should be getting a headache soon. A big, green, gamma powered headache!

I heard that in one of the books.....Frontline #11, I think....they've tried to do some damage control and revealed Stark had somewhat justifiable motivations for what he did, but that is a Grade-A load of crap.

There are two things Stark is going to have to deal with that won't be easy: The Hulk, and Thor. The Hulk was sent into space by S.H.I.E.L.D., so they should be one of the Hulk's main targets during World War Hulk, and I don't think Thor will be too happy when he finds out about the clone once he returns.

I used to be a Marvel zombie, but right now the only book I've been reading is Captain America (I was reading Ms. Marvel but dumped it because of the writing and the change in art team; Mike Wieringo is normally one of my favorites, but they gave him a horrible inker), and I will likely drop it after the next issue. But I am going to pick up the new Captain Marvel series whenever it starts. The rest of the Marvel line, however, is dead to me right now.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I think you're taking that the right way but I'm completely blank on the "warriors! come out and play" referrence. 

It was meant with one part sarcasm, one part generally liking girls who are of the "reformed bad girl" or "good girl with a bad streak" (but not going there beyond that), and one part generally liking a lot of the anti-hero characters. 

i still want to know what's wrong with "the whole bad girl thing"

Im going to take that as a "warriors! Come out and play!" on your behalf.

I dunno, It was just the period where I felt that comics were at their most juvenile. All of a sudden every female character ever was a thong wearing "badder than the badguys" vigilante who got their costume torn constantly and existed in a limbo of shower scenes and random debree covering naughty bits.

Dont get me wrong, I love cheesecake within the right context (she-hulk) but when that's the only selling point, I mean man, that's a pretty weak comic book.

I guess this is where somebody trumps me and say's "well not as bad as heroes reborn!"

[MyndVizion]

"Warriors! Come out and play!"

Listen boppers, the Lizzies are packing and Swan, Ajax, and the boys are on the run.  Reference to the 1979 Movie 'The Warriors', directed by Walter Hill. 

[BentonGrey]

Great movie, that.  Also, they made it into a pretty good game.

[Talavar]

I used to be a Marvel zombie, but right now the only book I've been reading is Captain America (I was reading Ms. Marvel but dumped it because of the writing and the change in art team; Mike Wieringo is normally one of my favorites, but they gave him a horrible inker), and I will likely drop it after the next issue. But I am going to pick up the new Captain Marvel series whenever it starts. The rest of the Marvel line, however, is dead to me right now.

You should check out the X-books, if you're an X-men fan at all.  Astonishing, New, Uncanny and Adjectiveless are all in good hands right now, and largely free of the stink of Civil War.  I mean, the X-men Civil War tie in book was totally pointless, and Bishop and Storm were the only X-Characters I can think of to really take a part in the Civil War, and neither are in any of the books I mentioned.

[JeyNyce]

Guys, watch it with comments.  Cross the line and it will get locked.  Thank you.

[steamteck]

Guys, watch it with comments.  Cross the line and it will get locked.  Thank you.

if that were only true for the Marvel writers, editors in question.

[Doctor TOC]

Having just finished reading Civil War, I thought I'd chip in with these comments;

1) Wow. I really enjoyed it. For the first time in a long time it felt like I was reading a story that actually mattered, where the good old Marvel re-set button wasn't going to get hit at the end of the story and restore the status quo.

2) This isn't the end of the story. Folks who are all "the bad guys won, grrr" need to realise that is only part of a continuing saga. We're going to see people come to terms with what they've done and why in the coming years. Tony Stark is a smart guy, and we're going to see him coming to realise that he's made a terrible mistake in the years to come. Guarenteed.

3) Tony Stark is a bad guy now? Marvel is trying to make its characters more believable, in line with Asimov's comment that, when writing about the fantastic, one must make everything else absolutely realistic. And in the real world, people often do terrible things for what they think of as good reasons. No-one really believes that Bush, for example, is cackling gleefully about the war in Iraq. He probably genuinely believes in what he's doing, even if large numbers of folks think he's an idiot. Tony Stark and Reed Richards are the smartest men in the Marvel U. We now know why Reed did what he did, and Tony, being in the heart of power right at the start, knew that after Stamford there were only two options; registration or elimination. In the Marvel U, superheroes function like the world's immune system, so elimination would inevitably lead to the extinction of humanity. As detestable as his behaviour has been, he has good reason to believe that he's preserved the mechanism that will save the world. Granted, that could have been better portrayed, but whether or not that makes him a bad guy depends on whether you believe that the ends justify the means. And given that a majority of the heroes we follow regularly violate the civil rights of others in the pursuit of justice, that should be most of us, right?

4) I've seen a lot of comments about the writers being "hacks". Sorry, I don't buy it. It's easy to call people names when they don't do what you want, but the fact is I found Civil War more engaging and intelligent than the vast majority of Marvel stuff I've read over the years. Your milage, of course, may vary, but I'd remind folks who are using the general internet fanboy reaction to justify the name-calling that fanboys are always the last ones to embrace change. Civil War sold extremely well, which suggests that somebody liked it.

5) The mourning of the loss of mainstream accessibility to kids is laudable, but misplaced. Back when every comic book on the shelf was for kids, we also had EC selling graphically nasty horror comics. There's always been comic books that aren't suitable for young kids. Now, granted, the balance has shifted considerably in favour of the older reader, but that's because the average reader is now between 16 and 25. Kids do have their own comics, with things like Marvel Adventures and Johnny DC. In fact, there are about the same number of kids comics available now as there were in the "golden age". It's just that there are a lot more comics being published now, so that the percentage of kids comics has reduced.

6) The ending. I've just re-read it, and Cap's surrender wasn't caused by him being in opposition to the government or by some property damage, it was caused by his realisation that he was standing at odds with the American people. Steve Rogers has opposed the government before, but he has always said he represented the people, not their leaders. Suddenly understanding that that was no longer true is the reason he stood down. Personally I think he was wrong to do so; the people have been wrong before, but it's the mark of a hero that he was willing to let go and surrender rather than go against the people he championed. And that's good writing.

[thanoson]

So, the american people wanted Steve to stop? What about the american people that helped Luke Cage when shield showed up? It's ok when non blacks that work in the community have a say, but if they were black it's not enough of a reason to keep the fight up? Not trying to be antoganistic, but the Village People tackling me would not be enough for me to change my beliefs if I felt I was right.

[Doctor TOC]

A fair point, but if you'd set yourself up - prided yourself - as representing and championing them, and then they tackled you and told you to stop, you'd still keep on going? That's going the route of "you don't know what's good for you, but I do", the sort of elitist thinking that Tony Stark was espousing. To keep going in the face of the people - ordinary people, physically intervening - would have made Cap as bad as the forces he was opposing. He's always stood against that kind of dictatorship, and by standing down remained true to himself and the ideals he represented. By surrendering the way he did, Captain America is the only one to come out of that mess with his honour and character intact.

[thanoson]

The secret Avengers still have their honor and characters in check. And they haven't given up. They should have never attacked Steve in the 1st place. And since when could a couple civil service types get the drop on him anyways? If that were the Thunderbolts, he would have been dead.

[Figure Fan]

I pretty much empathize with Doctor TOC. Good replies my man, good replies.