Lets See What You Skoped!

[Renegade]

I hate to put a damper on this, but just like other meshes, if you don't have permission from the author/authors to add the whale/shark data to a FF mesh, you shouldn't release.

<<

It's not the same thing. Raw models are generally posted on the web so that other people can use them. Any limititations on their use are usually included in the package with the model and/or on the site they came from. If there is nothing specifically prohibiting the use of the mesh in this context, then it's fair game.

[BentonGrey]

Woo-hoo!  That's great news.  I NEED those fish GG, Aquaman needs his finny friends!

[NomadX]

http://toucan.web.infoseek.co.jp/3DCG/3ds/FishModelsE.html

Looks like the same models to me and it says you can use them freely. Anyways, I've been trying to figure out how to  import 3ds/Obj in nifskope for awhile, but it always crashes ctool. Looks like you got it though.

[Tomato]

I hate to put a damper on this, but just like other meshes, if you don't have permission from the author/authors to add the whale/shark data to a FF mesh, you shouldn't release.

<<

It's not the same thing. Raw models are generally posted on the web so that other people can use them. Any limititations on their use are usually included in the package with the model and/or on the site they came from. If there is nothing specifically prohibiting the use of the mesh in this context, then it's fair game.

So because you post YOUR meshes on the web THEY are fair game? Because I just looked through your documentation, and If I were to go by your own statement, because you didn't specifically state I couldn't, I can import one of your meshes, edit it slightly, and say it's mine. Or, better yet, because Webrider didn't SPECIFICALLY state he didn't want use skoping stuff, we can do so? Both are online, and while not nescessarily in a user-friendly format, they can be cracked.

Now, you're right(as is GG) in this case, the author gave permission, so they are fair game. I suspected there was, but as there was nothing to verify that fact so I just wanted GG to post "yeah, I got them from (website), permission was given" That's all I wanted to know, honestly.

We have unwritten rules as far as what we can and cannot do as far as skinning, drawing, and meshing, and one of them is "respect authorship." To say that only extends to FR members is absurd. Now, you're right, typically if someone posts something online(particularly in .3ds or some other major format) they intend it for use in other games or graphics. But to bash me for wanting to be 100% sure instead of 99.9% sure that the author wanted the work distributed and that it was respected?  :huh:

I'm sorry if this seemed overly-defensive, but that statement... I realize you meant models that hadn't been optomised for a game or something, but it's WAAAAAY to close to something very very sinister.

[Mystik]

I hate to put a damper on this, but just like other meshes, if you don't have permission from the author/authors to add the whale/shark data to a FF mesh, you shouldn't release.

<<

It's not the same thing. Raw models are generally posted on the web so that other people can use them. Any limititations on their use are usually included in the package with the model and/or on the site they came from. If there is nothing specifically prohibiting the use of the mesh in this context, then it's fair game.

So because you post YOUR meshes on the web THEY are fair game? Because I just looked through your documentation, and If I were to go by your own statement, because you didn't specifically state I couldn't, I can import one of your meshes, edit it slightly, and say it's mine. Or, better yet, because Webrider didn't SPECIFICALLY state he didn't want use skoping stuff, we can do so? Both are online, and while not nescessarily in a user-friendly format, they can be cracked.

Now, you're right(as is GG) in this case, the author gave permission, so they are fair game. I suspected there was, but as there was nothing to verify that fact so I just wanted GG to post "yeah, I got them from (website), permission was given" That's all I wanted to know, honestly.

We have unwritten rules as far as what we can and cannot do as far as skinning, drawing, and meshing, and one of them is "respect authorship." To say that only extends to FR members is absurd. Now, you're right, typically if someone posts something online(particularly in .3ds or some other major format) they intend it for use in other games or graphics. But to bash me for wanting to be 100% sure instead of 99.9% sure that the author wanted the work distributed and that it was respected?  :huh:

I'm sorry if this seemed overly-defensive, but that statement... I realize you meant models that hadn't been optomised for a game or something, but it's WAAAAAY to close to something very very sinister.

Tomato I agree with your point of view regarding authorship, but you are not the "etiquette and morals police" .In the multiple threads/post where authorship is discussed I sure GG knows the unwritten rules regarding releases. its not your job to moderate everyones posts/releases (especially since this just a preview thread) -let a moderator say something if it needs to said.

stop picking on the newbies

[Renegade]

Don't be so sensitive. No one bashed you.

I am in the field of professional creative property creation and have been for 20 years. I'm experienced enough to know the difference between what constitutes fair use and what does not. A 3DS model is pure geometry and as such is generally made available for anyone to re-purpose and use however they see fit. If not, the creator usually specifically says so. So yes, not stating that an open and editable file is prohibited from use can be taken as implied consent for anyone who can use it to do so. 

There's a difference between a nif file and a Max file (or other 3DS file). A nif file is the final version of the mesh and generally isn't intended to be torn apart and used for another creation. This isn't always true of course, but in those cases where it is the creators have given specific permission to alter them. Some nifs are even designed to make this easier. But because the files are supposed to be "locked" in this format, there is no generally implied consent to edit them.

Max files, 3DS files, OBJ, files and the like are open and editable. Releasing them without prohibition is tantamount to giving implied consent to use them as the user sees fit. One can assume that such use should be "within reason", but let's face facts: the creator can't control this in any way, except by not releasing files in an open format.

And all of us who make this kind of stuff know that. Look around the ToyBox sometime. I've never publicly released a Max file (well, just once I think), although I've always shared them with folks who've asked privately. Want to guess why?


Common sense is what guides all of us in this area. Although I don't release my own, I freely make use of Max files supplied by former members of this board in my own meshes. For some I have their specific consent to do so and for others I use the implied consent of the Max file's release. And yes, I've even used parts pulled from nif files using the same guidelines that govern my use of Max files.

Taking credit for the work of others is wrong of course. I don't argue that. But making use of other's work in your own work, where consent can be obtained or implied, is perfectly acceptable. Heck, 95% of the available meshes use mesh materials created by Irrational modelers and designs by specific comic book and other media artists (and owned by them and some big corporations). I don't recall anyone getting Marvel's permission to make and release a spider-man FF mesh.

Common sense and fair use.

[AfghanAnt]

It's gettin' hot in here...

[BentonGrey]

Yeah, I think everyone has made their points, and the issue seems to be fairly well settled.  Shall we move on with the business of the thread?

There is a seahorse here, we could do Aquaman on Storm! :D

:EDIT:  Whoops!  I totally forgot to add the link!

http://www.3dvalley.com/models/models_animals.shtml

[style]

Yall Trippen'  :angry: lets get back to the beautiful skopes!!! :thumbup:

[GGiant]

Don't worry I won't be releasing any skopes I show that have somebody else's work.
I don't take credit for somebody else's creations that I don't have permission on so I won't release.
I am sorry if I offended anyone. :(
Edit:
I think the site where I downloaded the shark is down.
So I'm guessing everyone's happy?
Edit2:

Yeah, I think everyone has made their points, and the issue seems to be fairly well settled.  Shall we move on with the business of the thread?

There is a seahorse here, we could do Aquaman on Storm! :D

:EDIT:  Whoops!  I totally forgot to add the link!

http://www.3dvalley.com/models/models_animals.shtml

That's a max file because I look at it yesterday. :lol:

[BentonGrey]

I believe your skopes are okay, seeing as the site says that they are free for use.

[tommyboy]

At the risk of fanning the flames further, I thought exactly as Tomato did when I saw the pictures, mainly because NO mention was made of where the models came from or who made them.

Now, you can say "I'll put that in a readme.txt", and that's fair enough to some extent.
But I think it would be nice to acknowledge the work and generosity of the people who make the stuff your 'skopes are made of by bothering to type their name out in this thread as well as in a readme.
So, yes, they are "open source" models, and permission to use them is both implicit and explicitly given, but to not even bother to type out the names of those who make what you do possible strikes me as a bit off.
I know many people here do give credit in this thread, and it seems like credit is being given in readmes too (though to be honest I haven't downloaded most of this stuff to check that), but had GGiant simply put in his post the source of the models, and their creator, we wouldn't be discussing it at all.

There are many wonderful, creative, hard-to-do things being accomplished via nifSkope.
I'm not suggesting that anyone is deliberately or consciously setting out to "steal credit", but by omitting it here, the casual thread-browser could be mistaken for thinking many of these 'skopes were created from scratch by the posters here.
And whilst that is effectively the case for some 'skopes, (where parts are shrunken/grown/flipped/rotated/cloned/uvmapped/animated into essentially new parts), putting a model of a man on a model of a fish/bike/plane/whatever is not as hard as making those things from scratch. Sorry If that seems harsh, or elitist, or seems to belittle 'skoping, but it's how I feel. And I've done both, so I think I'm in a position to make that judgement.
And it's easy to let enthusiasm and a desire to share make you forget to say "this bit came from here".

I wish FF meshes could be made and animated in free, open source, shareware programmes, because I'm 100% sure every 'skoper would be meshing like crazy. But it's not the case. So 'skoping is 3d-kittbashing, done with the knowledge, permission and blessings of myself and others who have consented. I consented that is, with a proviso that Credit Be Given. For my part, that means Not Just To Me, but to the people who have made 3dmodels on whatever website the whale and shark came from.

The very fact that they are given for free is even MORE reason to credit the artist, in my opinion.


   

[Jakew]

So ... what did GGiant do wrong, exactly? Not give credit to the people who's meshes, skins, pieces, he used in his pictures?

Do you need to acknowledge all those people when showing pictures on the forum? Or is it just when you actually RELEASE the skope? 'Cause, as far as I'm aware, GGiant provides readme files with his skopes.....

[GGiant]

Yeah...I never forget to give credit for the meshes I used...I think? :unsure:
Here are words that is in the site:

may be used royalty-free in your own work if you give proper credit

And NomadX that was not the site although I'll look into it.
Edit:
Yeah, Tommy's right I should have placed "I'd put the website name on the Plz Read.txt".
This is all my fault. :doh:

The very fact that they are given for free is even MORE reason to credit the artist, in my opinion.

Yeah this is true, In all shark models on Turbosquid.com(which is not the website I used btw,I would say it's 0.0002/10

[Mystik]

okay lets get back to the skopes

GG I think you should place the whale/shark mesh on the silver surfer mesh with the fish as the board and aquaman as the surfer

[GGiant]

Edit:
Some keyframes make it look horrid! Sorry! :(

[Tomato]

Yall Trippen'  :angry: lets get back to the beautiful skopes!!! :thumbup:

Yeaaaaaahhh... I agree with style on this one now... I just made the comment to double-check on credits, I didn't intend for it to turn into this (as for fanning the flames more... I had a really bad day yesterday, my laptop crashed, my truck wouldn't start, etc. So I overreacted).

And as far as your comment earlier TR... I actually don't consider GG a newbie anymore. He's a contributing member of the community, and some of his stuff is pretty innovative. He slips up occasionally, but so do I, and I've been here for 5+ years.

[Mystik]

Edit:
Some keyframes make it look horrid! Sorry! :(

really? which animations? can you show a pic?

edit: tried it myself and animations seem okay to me

[detourne_me]

sweet, that looks good!
Thor I'm assuming you adjusted the handle so he wouldn't be stuck in the ground... and maybe floating up a few feet higher?

[BentonGrey]

Freakin' awesome!

[GGiant]

Idle_1
Edit:

sweet, that looks good!
Thor I'm assuming you adjusted the handle so he wouldn't be stuck in the ground... and maybe floating up a few feet higher?

This is what I tried, And also a few adjustments to the shark, but never looked right for me. :(

[Mystik]

why would you care about idle_1 its not even used ingame

[GGiant]

why would you care about idle_1 its not even used ingame

I don't usually play the game, but okay. :doh:

[GGiant]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
It might take me hours to finish this! :(

[Mystik]

something i think benton would get a kick out of

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[lmalonsof]

WOW!

[GGiant]

Is that really the batmobile?
The second one.

[Carravaggio]

Sweet Christmas! That tumbler is incredibly impressive Thor, one of the best skopes i have ever seen!

[GGiant]

Hey I just remembered, you were suppose to make skopes Carravaggio! :o :P

[BentonGrey]

Ho-ho!  Do my eyes decieve me, or is that TAS-like Bat-goodness?