Vehicles... a possibility?

[RTTingle]

Yes, I stumbled across yet again another vehicles thread on COH and was ready to roll my eyes.  Vehicles is up there in want right next to skills for me, so sure... it's a never will be, yet this thread seemed fairly decent and had some good back and forth and then, the idea hit me.

I believe I have the answer to most of your problems actually... and it may be very feasable, since they are doing something like this in game already.

Ok, lemmie go down the checklist of wants here and arguments.

- Must not be used as a weapon or have weapon capabilities. Sorry, I know you guys like the idea of a vehix with toys, like the Flyers, but lets be honest --- its a bad idea out of the box. A vehix should be purely for getting around and bragging rights.

- Must be level appropiate. No oversized group vehicles, etc. Each vehix would be relatively small, and a personal ride. No weapons again, see above, problem solved. Just cause you're 50, doesn't mean you should get a personal aircraft carrier. Now, what may be possible, is more choices of style of vehix with level.

- Must follow the laws of the game. Example? How does a car stay on land for instance. Cars, motorbikes, etc not going in the water and so on.

- Must not make current travel powers obsolete. And this kinda ties in with the above rule.

- Must not be annoying in public places. Hmmm. Got me on this one. Personally, we keep the vehix small and I don't think we have an issue. Its like auras and area effect powers. Just hope for the best and don't stick really annoying sounds with the vehix.

So, how do we do this?

The same way they are doing different flying poses in test of I9 now.

Emotes.

You start running and /emote motorcycle and your guys riding a motorcycle until you have to stop or go in the water, etc.

You start flying and /emote minicopter and you fly with your minicopter until you have to land, etc.

You start swimming and you /emote jetski until you run on land again.

You jump off a building and fall and you /emote parachute until you -splat- on the ground... and wonder why it didn't work until you see the words ACME on the backpack... and forgot to hover, but seriously, folks.

Emotes are the answer here.

Keep the vehix small and personal. They work with travel powers and not instead of. And everyone can use them without regards of level, or being overpowered or outbalancing anything.

Only work required, animations. Now... how many of you would gladly see one issue of emotes that are just, vehix?

Now, bring forth Positron and let him not ignore this thread.

EC

Whatcha' guys think?  Discussion.

[BlueBard]

Seems reasonable to me.  Now whether it's worth the time and manpower to actually develop vehicle emotes is open to question.

Take the motorcycle as an example.

If you really want to make it look right, you need:

- a start animation where the bike appears and the character climbs onto the bike.
- a travel animation where the wheels spin.
- an idle animation where the bike isn't moving and the character has a foot on the ground.
- an end animation where the character climbs off the bike and the bike disappears.

Okay, you could do it on the cheaps and just have the bike instantly appear with the character on it and use a very simple idle animation where the wheels stop moving.  The "right" way probably won't happen.


edit:  Actually, thinking about it for a sec the "right" way isn't even possible.  I forgot about the limitations of the emote animations as they were explained to us.  I believe you had it right, the bike would have to disappear as soon as the character stopped.

[RTTingle]

Heya BB,

Yep... you're getting too complicated with the animations which is why vehix never would go far.  Too many complications.  Keeping it to just emotes and not with all those fancy animations --- makes it possible.

I used the motorcycle as an example for a very good reason.  They already have a motorcycle animation.  One of the mastermind thug minions makes his appreance by riding in on a motorcycle.

All vehix emotes would work just like the fly emotes.  Start the forward motion and activate the /emote command and you appear on/in your vehix and moving forward.  You can still turn without losing the /emote.  Jumping, stopping, changing from land/water/air would all stop the animation as would normal emotes.

Motorcycles, segueways, minicopters, skycycles, gliders, flying discs... quite a few ideas could fit into this.  You could even go so far as to offer rollerskates, skateboards... and uh... a flying surfboard.

Of all the emotes they've made every issue... I think of all things... vehix emotes would be the most welcomed.

Downside?

No weapons.  Which honestly, is really a good thing.  Also, no group vehix.

RTT   

[captainspud]

Another possibility-- make them alternate Sprints you can make with the invention system. This would allow the range of animations BB suggests.

[RTTingle]

Another possibility-- make them alternate Sprints you can make with the invention system. This would allow the range of animations BB suggests.

Hmmm...

Nice idea.  Very nice idea. 

Still though, ease on the devs part is the key I think.  Approaching them with anything that requires too much effort and I think they automatically shutdown on the idea.

RTT

[BlueBard]

Still though, ease on the devs part is the key I think.  Approaching them with anything that requires too much effort and I think they automatically shutdown on the idea.

A-yup.  That does seem to be the general trend, based on the dev interviews and comments I've read.

The reason they probably do most of the emotes is they don't really require a whole lot of effort vs cooking up objects from scratch.  They're just taking existing models and posing them, for the most part.  I realize that's probably a bit of over-simplification, but probably not by much.  That's why I'm a bit skeptical that they will do vehicle emotes... it represents more work than a regular emote.

I dunno.  If their excuse for not doing cool stuff that a lot of players want is that they're trying to get out x number of issues a year, maybe they ought to fix their schedule.  I'm not as geeked about vehicles as some folks, but it would fit some of my concepts quite well.

[RTTingle]

Still though, ease on the devs part is the key I think.  Approaching them with anything that requires too much effort and I think they automatically shutdown on the idea.

A-yup.  That does seem to be the general trend, based on the dev interviews and comments I've read.

Kinda' sad, eh?

The reason they probably do most of the emotes is they don't really require a whole lot of effort vs cooking up objects from scratch.  They're just taking existing models and posing them, for the most part.  I realize that's probably a bit of over-simplification, but probably not by much.  That's why I'm a bit skeptical that they will do vehicle emotes... it represents more work than a regular emote.

Now here ---> http://the-swarm.org/Emotes/EmoteGuide.htm is a complete list of emotes, with animations for show.

There are a lot of really great suggestions out there vehicles.  Each one however opens a can of worms, like having vehicles as travel powers.  What power would you trade in to pick up a vehicle?  Balance issues?  Slotting?  And thats even before getting into the hassles of detailed summoning, travel, and dismissal animations.  Lets not even get started on the coding and programming issues. 

Sure, doing vehicle emotes would require a bit more than a regular emote... but --- as compared to the other options in regards to vehicles?  Its the best option.  It doesn't introduce a world of headaches in regards to animation, balance, coding, etc.  Lets face it, the more complicated of an idea it is, the less chance of it being happening.  Emotes makes it easy for them, and the more and more and more I think a bout it, it makes the best sense.  LIke I stated in my first message, the pluses are all there.

The best part of vehicle emotes?  So many ways it would work with the game as it is now.  Lets go with another example here and leave our favorite example, motorcycles, to the side for just a moment.

Lets take some fellow and name him Sky Surfer.  Lets say Sky Surfer is level 30 and has hover and fly.  He runs, clicks fly... starts to fly then does the /skyboard emote.  A board pops out under him and he's surfing the skies of the city.  He can fly around, turn (But not strafe), even hover.  But soon as he stops and clicks fly again (or any other power), the skyboard disappears.  Now because he can use /skyboard as an emote... he doesn't have to choose another power.  Doesn't have to slot it.  It all works with his current travel power.  He wants to fly faster?  He has to slot fly as he normally would.

Now, lets get really creative with this.  Lets use a vehicle emote for something that we can all do... and doesn't require any powers.  Swimming.  Lets assume Joe Hero has no travel powers, maybe he does, but doesn't feel like using them --- he's just interested in a mid game swim.  He jumps off land, into the water, starts to swim and then does the  /waterscooter emote.  In front of him appears one of those lil water scooters, he hangs onto the handles and he is now waterscooting instead of swimming.  Or you can be like Aquaman in those old Superfriend cartoons and have a lil' jetski.  Again, no powers required.  Everyone can use it.  Jump out of the water (or use a power) and it disappears.

I know, you're saying, "Yeah, yeah... we get the point RTT, but what are the downsides?"  Well.  The trade in for actually getting vehicular emotes is this;

- No fancy summon or dismissal animations.  Like everything else in the game, powers and even other emotes (Except pets) it just fades in and out of hammer space.  Lame, I know... but hey I been pulling this huge gun from somewhere for the last 3 years - I can handle pulling out small vehicles as well.  Which leads to the next one...

- No large vehicles or group vehicles.  Only small, personal vehicles.  Yeah, it sucks, but thems the breaks.  This is also a good thing though.  I mean really, who wants to be standing around Atlas Park or in a mission and someone decides to do the /monstertruck emote?  So this is actually kind of fits in both categories - good and bad.

- No small options like backpacks, boots, belts, what have you that gets you around.  Nope.   Thats what inventions are for folks.

- And finally vehicle emotes can't do any damage.  Nope, they're just a ride and not a weapon.

Thats just off the top of my head.  Anyone else with some plus or minuses to this idea?

"Gee RTT, some of those minuses really suck."  I know, but the more complicated --- the less a chance we see anything in regards to vehicles.

Simple fact - vehicles done right and with depth would require so many changes to the game mechanics, systems, balance of powers, etc... that not only are we talking about a whole 'nother expansion --- we could be possibly talking about a whole different game, City of Heroes II.

Do we want vehicles in game, and in game easily and the very near future?  Than emotes is the way to go.

I dunno.  If their excuse for not doing cool stuff that a lot of players want is that they're trying to get out x number of issues a year, maybe they ought to fix their schedule.  I'm not as geeked about vehicles as some folks, but it would fit some of my concepts quite well.

We could argue and conspire so much about the how and whys, but we just honestly know what they will and won't do.

We have PVP.  Skills has been kicked around for 3 years and been through so many different incarnations until they finally got it out as inventions.  Trenchcoats.  Wings.  Flight poses came, left... and came back under a bit of inspiration.

I see them giving us what we want, or at least them doing their best in trying.  They need lots of time or a brilliant bit of inspiration.

The easier something is, the better our chances.  Sure, they have time to do emotes and costume options that really honestly add nothing to the game in content --- but asking them to do anything with real depth outside of their own plans is really asking them to put aside their own plans and that is just not going to happen.

Anyways...

Lets get a little bit deeper into this.  Suppose this can and will happen, what vehicles would you like to see??  Remember, small personal vehicles.  And lets see if we can't at least try to get two of something for everyone?

Motorcycles for land travel of course, but what else?  Cars are out --- too large.  So what other vehicles can we have that will get us across the land smoothly?

How about our friends who want to fly?  I already suggested some kind of skyboard above.  We could have some kind of generic flying board that would be cool.  Why not a hanglider as well?

For swimming I already suggested a seascooter and a jetski.  Anything else?

Lets not leave out superjumping.  Someone as a joke asked, what would they use... a pogo stick?  Hey, why not an atomic power pogostick?  Any other suggestions?  (Remember, boots are an invented costume part - we're looking for vehicles.)

And what of teleporting?  Well, this is the one I'm really stuck on.  I can't help but think of those sci-fi standbys... phonebooths.  Be you the good Doctor or just Bill & Ted kinda' dudes, we should have /boothgrey and /boothblue just for you.

Anyone else???

RTT

[Ephemeris]

I wish there was a magic carpet fly animation using the yoga emote.  And maybe a standing one as well.

[BlueBard]

Skateboard.

Skis, for when they're running Winter Events.  Might as well throw in Snowboard and Sled.

I like the Magic Carpet, too.

I kind of like the idea of Roller Skates/Blades, too, but that seems like it ought to be a costume option or even a minor travel power you can Invent 'cuz you really need that skating animation.

[RTTingle]

I wish there was a magic carpet fly animation using the yoga emote.  And maybe a standing one as well.

I love that idea.  :)

Skateboard.

Eh, I'm on the fence about that one.  Not really a vehicle.  That's something I'd think more in lines with what should be a special sprint animation, like Spuddy mentioned before.

Skis, for when they're running Winter Events.  Might as well throw in Snowboard and Sled.

Snowboard and sleds shouldn't be vehicle emotes or costume parts/inventions.  They should be temporary travel powers granted at that time of year along with the winter chalet --- think the jingle jet idea, with the powerslide animations.

Now, if we do get a full time winter themed area, then we should get a snowmobile vehicle.

I kind of like the idea of Roller Skates/Blades, too, but that seems like it ought to be a costume option or even a minor travel power you can Invent 'cuz you really need that skating animation.

Roller skates and blades are definately costume parts/inventions.

RTT

[captainspud]

One problem I'll point out with a lot of vehicles: ever seen someone stand on a hill with Steamy Mist, Hot Feet, or another "foot disc" power? Half the disc gets eaten up in the slope. It's VERY difficult for the engine to determine the intersecting angle at your feet, hence all the performance issues when those powers "gripped" the ground.

Skateboards, skis, motorcycles, jeeps, whatever-- these would all clip the ground when you're on a strong slope. The options here are restricting vehicles to hoverbikes and the like, or introducing a brand-new physics model for moving in vehicles. The latter would be VERY time-consuming to implement.

[MJB]

With Sky Skiffs and the like already in the game wouldn't it be simple to give us access to a small flying vehicle like that? I realize that normal motorcycles would be impossible with the current game engine but hover bikes, skates, flying carpets should all be very possible. They would all move like normal travel powers they would just look cool. :)

-MJB

[Uncle Yuan]

I'm not a techie, but the sky skiffs have always seemed to me to be more character animations/meshes than some sort of add on.  They just have a different shape like Hoverbots or Warhulks.

[RTTingle]

One problem I'll point out with a lot of vehicles: ever seen someone stand on a hill with Steamy Mist, Hot Feet, or another "foot disc" power? Half the disc gets eaten up in the slope. It's VERY difficult for the engine to determine the intersecting angle at your feet, hence all the performance issues when those powers "gripped" the ground.

Thats why the vehicles should all be small.

Skateboards, skis, motorcycles, jeeps, whatever-- these would all clip the ground when you're on a strong slope. The options here are restricting vehicles to hoverbikes and the like, or introducing a brand-new physics model for moving in vehicles. The latter would be VERY time-consuming to implement.

Skateboards would be a sprint power.  Skis would be a tempororay holiday power just like a jingle jet, until they get a perm winter zone, then they should be a sprint power as well.  Motorcycles would work.  Jeeps... close, but still too big to be a vehicle emote.

Granted the options may be limiting, but it has to fall into a fair idea for the game.  Small items that are more like costume options, should stay that... inventable costume options, like skates.  The coming back options, like jetpacks would also fit into inventable costume options as well and not vehicles.  Things a little larger, that everyone should able to use, should actually be a sprint power like you suggested.  Skis, skateboards, snowboards, etc would all fall into this category.

Would choices be limited?  Sadly, yeah.  But like I said, lets keep thinking small vehicles.  Motorcycles are for running on land.  Jetskis are for running on water.  Flying carpets would be for flyers.  Atomic pogosticks for jumpers.  Some great ideas so far.

Sadly, the game is full of clipping and I don't see them fixing that anytime soon.  Clipping also seems to be an issue in regards to graphic cards as well.  When my settings are low, I see a lot of nasty clipping.  I set it high, it looks better.  I think some thing we have to accept.  Clipping and hammerspace issues are all over the game.  And sure, when I see someone on a slope with that disc power, its a little immersion breaking, but its something thats been in the games for 3 years.  A small vehicle clipping on a slope is no different from what we see already.

The thing is, the suggestion is about using whats in game already without having to develop a whole huge system for it.  Its a quick and easy way to get vehicles in without chaning anything.  It follows the rules of the game and adds flavor without a huge hassle.  They're fancy emotes nothing more.  No balance issues, no power choices.  Things everyone can use and enjoy to add something a little different to what they already do... just like flight poses.

With Sky Skiffs and the like already in the game wouldn't it be simple to give us access to a small flying vehicle like that? I realize that normal motorcycles would be impossible with the current game engine but hover bikes, skates, flying carpets should all be very possible. They would all move like normal travel powers they would just look cool. :)

I'd love to see Sky skiffs for villians and freedom flyers for heroes, but they're a tad large.  If they made a smaller version, single engine perhaps... that would be sweet.  Why would motyorcycles be impossible?  They already have the models in use.

Hoverbikes/atomic horses and all would work, basically... you just suggested it above.  Skates would be a costume/invention.  Flying carpets would fit... and rock.  :)

I'm not a techie, but the sky skiffs have always seemed to me to be more character animations/meshes than some sort of add on.  They just have a different shape like Hoverbots or Warhulks.

I'm not sure if it is, or isnt.  One thing I do know... I had a lot of fun chasing sky skiffs in Terra Volta and blasting them, just to watch the little guy fall out.  :)


EC

[captainspud]

Clipping as it happens now is mostly to do with upper torsos. You can kinda ignore it because it usually happens in crowds.

Ground clipping, on the other hand, is something they've worked pretty hard to avoid. With the exception of foot discs (which USED to work, but were recently broken to help people's framerates), there are no game objects I'm aware of that cause ground clipping. It looks a lot worse than torso clipping because to most people, it looks like it should be avoidable.

Basically, any vehicle that doesn't need to right itself to the ground (hoverbikes/skimmers/pogo sticks/skates/whatever) can be done, and I guess the jet ski can work because all the game's water is flat. That said, there's no bounding engine tag to denote water (it's a graphics thing only), so there's no way to forcibly restrict the jetski to water areas, which means you'll have people using it on land. Which could work if they give it flashy lights and such so it appears to be a hovercraft when it's out of water (technically a jet ski would need to be elevated anyway since the water level is above the physical floor), but it's at least something to think about.

Anything that would need to be perpendicular to the ground plane-- cars, motorcycles, skateboards, what have you-- couldn't work with the code they have now.

And I still think a temp power is the way to do this. Manual emotes are a huge pain in the @ss. You'd get a much better range of motions by just toggling on a temp power.

[RTTingle]

And I still think a temp power is the way to do this. Manual emotes are a huge pain in the @ss. You'd get a much better range of motions by just toggling on a temp power.

No doubt it would probably be the best way, like the jingle jet.  I just don't see them doing that short of COH/V II.

RTT

[El Condor]

That said, there's no bounding engine tag to denote water (it's a graphics thing only), so there's no way to forcibly restrict the jetski to water areas, which means you'll have people using it on land.

But how does the engine know when to make you swim, then?

EC

[BlueBard]

That said, there's no bounding engine tag to denote water (it's a graphics thing only), so there's no way to forcibly restrict the jetski to water areas, which means you'll have people using it on land.

But how does the engine know when to make you swim, then?

EC

That was going to be my question.

Not only do you swim, but you also float... so the game engine has to have some way to figure out that you're in the water.

[captainspud]

You don't float. You stand, and the water has a uniform depth everywhere.

That said, I'll take back my comment about the game not knowing if you're in water, since you're right-- the game knows to make you swim. So I guess in theory the game COULD be restricted to having a jetski in water. THAT said, it still might not, as the swimming really does seem to me to be a graphics thing.

[Alaric]

You don't float. You stand, and the water has a uniform depth everywhere.

That said, I'll take back my comment about the game not knowing if you're in water, since you're right-- the game knows to make you swim. So I guess in theory the game COULD be restricted to having a jetski in water. THAT said, it still might not, as the swimming really does seem to me to be a graphics thing.

And if vehicles are implemented as emotes, then they'd be graphics things, too.

That said, I'd personally rather see vehicles as power pools. If weapons like swords and guns are powers, it makes sense to me that vehicles would be, too.

[RTTingle]

That said, I'd personally rather see vehicles as power pools. If weapons like swords and guns are powers, it makes sense to me that vehicles would be, too.

Not unless they raise levels again or something.  I don't like the idea of taking away power choices for something  that should work with travel powers, rather than instead of. 

I still don't like the idea of weapons with vehicles... for the same reasons.  Also open a huge hassle with regards to balance... etc.

RTT

[Alaric]

That said, I'd personally rather see vehicles as power pools. If weapons like swords and guns are powers, it makes sense to me that vehicles would be, too.

Not unless they raise levels again or something.  I don't like the idea of taking away power choices for something  that should work with travel powers, rather than instead of.  RTT

You see, personally, I'd like having vehicles as varient travel powers. It's actually the only way I'm really interested in them- as a way to give non-powered hereos travel powers that actually work with their concepts. I can't think of any, say, flying heroes I have who I'd want to have vehicles for, and having the vehicles as pool powers would allow for other vehicle-related powers. For example, parachutes could be in an airplane pool, and the fourth powers in the pools could allow you to take passengers in your vehicles.