Marvel ruin another character (illuminati spoiler)

[UnfluffyBunny]

So marvel have ruined yet another character for me >_>
The Beyonder...
[spoiler]
Apparently, the Beyonder, as in, the cosmic being Beyonder.... -isnt- a cosmic being, he's a mutant inhuman..... yay -_-
[/spoiler]

[SingleMalt]

 :doh: Why is Marvel ruining their characters like this? :banghead:

[Epimethee]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry, that's just too much. :wacko: The guy was supposed to be a universe, then it turns out he's a mutant? :headbang:

[Spring Heeled Jack]

I heard that Namor is three baby ducks in a rubber suit.

Er, mutant baby ducks.

[tommyboy]

Whilst the character was a bit lame in his original conception (ummm..sort of God I guess?), and his retcon into a cosmic cube was also a bit lame, this latest Bendis Retcon sucks so badly that I fear for the universe now this black hole is in it.
The Illuminati is itself a suck-con of Bendis proportions, and having them micturate all over old comics both good and bad has gotten to the point that I just can't bear to read any more of them.
:thumbdown:

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

They just can't leave this character alone can they?  They always have to make him weaker and weaker.

Leave him as the nearly omnipotent being he used to be.  That was much more interesting.

(as a matter of fact, one of the issues of Secret Wars II was one of the first comic books I ever read)

[Alaric]

Honestly, I never thought much of the Beyonder- he was okay as a "mysterious entity" in the original Secret Wars, but Secret Wars II completely ruined him for me. Still, this sounds extremely absurd.

[Panther_Gunn]

Honestly, I never thought much of the Beyonder- he was okay as a "mysterious entity" in the original Secret Wars, but Secret Wars II completely ruined him for me. Still, this sounds extremely absurd.

I mostly have to ditto Alaric.  For his original purpose, he worked.  Secret Wars II was a flop for a special event, especially compared to the first one.  Having him be half of a cosmic cube made *some* bit of sense.  This, however, does not.  Trying to explain away that level of power in that manner would make him the most powerful non-cosmic entity, ever.  Forming a world from chunks of others.  Transporting creatures from all over the universe.  Enough raw power to kill everyone in the Secret Wars in one shot, as well as breaking Cap's Shield.  Yeah, I can buy that being all inside one mortal being.  <_<

[daglob]

Me, I just found out what they did to Speedball.

Doesn't anybody like HAPPY super-heroes anymore.

I guess I'll just have to console myself with Showcase Presents: The Flash.

[thanoson]

Last I remember, Beyonder was a girl. She took a disliking to Thanos and whomped him good; yet he still lived. Who the man?

[Mowgli]

Well, I admit it was a surprise to me, but I didn't mind it as much as most people seem to have. I would agree with Alaric to begin with. I never really thought much about the Beyonder. He was a poor plot idea created for a big "versus" comic. The SWII was just plain silly... an omnipotent being shows up in a Michael Jackson jacket and fights humans. Um... okay.

I guess that's why this revelation didn't bother me. Omnipotent or not... the Beyonder is portrayed as an idiot. He has the mentality of a child. So it didn't bother me that he was explained as an Inhuman mutant. That links his intelligence to that which we can comprehend.. something like human thought. That would explain his simplistic ideas. Kind of makes sense.

catwhowalksbyhimself: How was he made weaker? I read the comic today, and he was saying, "I can make anything a reality" and he was doing so all around himself as quick as he could think it, without breaking a sweat. That's what he did in Secret Wars.

I do understand what people are saying about all the retcon sucking. I sincerely disliked Cable for that very reason. They wrote him as if he was around and knew Wolverine "back in the day" and interacted with a lot of existing characters. But he was never in their comics. But at least Bendis does a good job of writing his retcon work into existing events, without disturbing their previous outcome. I'm not defending him, just stating why it doesn't bother me so much.

[BlueBard]

I just KEEP on getting reasons to never pick up another Marvel comic for the rest of my life, don't I?  :banghead:

[The Hitman]

I heard that Namor is three baby ducks in a rubber suit.

Er, mutant baby ducks.

PffHAHAHAHA! Milk shot out of my nose on that one!

I'm not going to go into details, mainly because it'd be nothing more than a re- stating of what's already been said. But, for the record, I most definitely agree with Alaric and Panther on this one.

[lugaru]

And it's not so much that they should leave the beyonders character alone, I mean they should leave him alone in general. We arent missing out on much by not having beyonder stories...

[Talavar]

Count me as another vote for "The Beyonder Always Sucked" Party.  This is kind of lame, but the Beyonder was always really lame, so it's barely a net increase in lame-osity.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

catwhowalksbyhimself: How was he made weaker? I read the comic today, and he was saying, "I can make anything a reality" and he was doing so all around himself as quick as he could think it, without breaking a sweat. That's what he did in Secret Wars.

Weaker in concept and expectation, then.

Omnipotent Cosmic Being sounds a whole lot grander than human mutant.  In fact, really, he's so ridiculously powerful as to make no sense at all for any form of human.  Plus, a lot of SWII was about how he didn't understand humanity as he was so different from them.  There was every indication there that he was not even vaguely human-like.

Bah, I say.

[MyndVizion]

The Beyonder should have stayed an enigmatic entity at the end of SW1. There was no need for SW2 - SW2 took some entity that should have only appeared once and tried to explain him and Marvel ruined the concept from the word "go".

I was conflicted while reading issue #3. First off I felt that the overall story was actually really good.  However I felt the entire story was a bit rushed and deserved two issues. In fact I think each of the Illuminati issues should have been double in size or at least 2 issues per story arc. 1 issue per story arc just feels way too compressed.

Second, the whole Beyonder = Inhuman + Mutant was "okay". He's still the omnipowerful omnipotent character of old. Actually, I don't think of the Beyonder as a character, but more of a concept. I also got the impression that the end of the issue led into SW2 - at which the whole thing ends. I don't see this as a means of bringing back the Beyonder (at least I hope not) in the current timeline.

But I have to admit one sidebar here..... This was the first comic in which Tony Stark wan't present!!!!!!!  *GASP*!!!!! Tony has been everywhere lately, I was actually happy to see the villain not around.  And does anyone else think Mr. Fantastic is a tool? If Stretch didn't have Sue in his life I could actually see him being a supervillain.

[Figure Fan]

LMFAO @ SHJ's 'duck' comment.

Seriously, who isn't a mutant anymore? Its such a cop-out, but only for characters like the Beyonder who obviously isn't a mutant. Blech..

[cmdrkoenig67]

I despise the horrible things Marvel is doing/has done to it's major and minor characters. 

I hated that they killed off Alpha Flight (One of my most favorite teams...off-panel and they don't have any faith in AF as a viable product), I hate that they made Spider-Man some mystical spider-avatar thing with organic web-shooters and stingers (ick...Oh and had him take off his mask...Stupid move, Marvel!)...I hated that in Civil War they have made Iron Man and Mr Fantastic into a rat-bastards that no body likes (pretty much the whole Pro-reg side turned into Nazi-ish "you must conform and obey" monsters...And using a Thor clone to attack and kill their fellow heroes?....What the hell is wrong with this picture, people?!), I hate that the heroes are now working along-side some of the most vile murderers and villains in the Marvel Universe(the new Thunderbolts members...Venom, Green Goblin, , etc...), I really hate that they screwed up the original Spider-Woman's origin even more with Bendis' terrible Spider-Woman: Origin miniseries...Did I mention that I hated that they killed off Alpha Flight?

Wow...A lot of this stuff is Bendis' work...But Joke Quesada just let's him keep doing it.

I don't even want to go into the whole watering-down (with as many Wolverine-like characters as they can possibly churn out)/screwing up and over-exposure of Wolverine...And the crap that is the the "Ultimate" line.

This new "the Beyonder was a mega-powerful mutant Inhuman" stuff is some of the worst crap I've heard (along with the spider-avatar Spider-Man, the shoe-horning of Sentry and Jewel/Jessica Jones into Marvel history).

Marvel's foundation is being eroded out from under it (over the past several years under Quesada's leadership)...It's flagship characters and long-term supporting heroes/characters are being mishandled, mangled/mutilated and killed off for the sake of shock-tactic stories.  Marvel will be very, very lucky if they don't someday find themselves in need of a huge DC Crisis-style reboot to fix all of the horrors being perpetrated by the current "talent" and editorial staff.  Marvel would be better off without the "Q", the "BMB" and the "JMS".

There are some bright spots here and there...Like the kid-team books (Runaways and New X-Men, both of which I've heard great things about) and series like Joss whedon's Astonishing X-Men (which basically prove you don't have to mangle and destroy characters to tell great stories).  I'm liking Omega Flight, but I'm having doubts that the "Q" has an ounce of faith in anything Alpha-related to let it truly fly (he already had it cut down from being an on-going to a five-issue mini).

Sigh...End of rant.

Dana

EDITED to fix some typos.

[JKCarrier]

I haven't read the issue, but the idea that the Beyonder is just a genetically-altered human is a bit hard to swallow. I don't recall ever seeing a mutant or inhuman with anything near that level of power (Phoenix doesn't count, because her powers came from an outside source). And yes, it completely contradicts everything established about the character in Secret Wars I & II. Steve Englehart's explanation that the Beyonder was half of a broken Cosmic Cube was a little goofy, but at least it fit the data (extra-dimensional energy being with no concept of humanity).

And why would anyone want to revive/revamp the Beyonder in the first place? Maybe the writer is trying to prove that he's such a genius, he can "fix" even the lamest of the lame? What's next, Ultimate Turner D. Century?  :P

[zuludelta]

Haven't read the comic in question (and really, I never cared for the Beyonder) so I'll just address the notion being put out there that Quesada has somehow done unforgivable harm to Marvel's characters.

I'm not a "New Marvel" apologist in any sense of the word (I thought Quesada's first high-profile project as editor-in-chief, the Origin mini-series, was an overly produced turd, for example) but you have to give credit where credit is due. Quesada, along with the much-maligned Bill Jemas were responsible for pulling Marvel out of bankruptcy and turning it into the viable multimedia business it is today.

If it weren't for Quesada and Jemas taking risks with the Ultimate line, pushing (and sometimes manufacturing) comics controversy onto the mainstream media, and playing loose with the unofficial (but nonetheless artificial) rules the sometimes overly-anal comic book culture has created, we might not even have any Marvel comics to complain about on message boards today. So if Quesada and his pool of talent want to take liberties with certain characters, I'd tell them to go ahead and knock themselves out. It might turn out to be garbage (but even artistic failures can be interesting), but I'd take an earnest attempt at trying something new (Ultron with boobs!) rather than sticking to what is largely an imagined status quo.

Sure, I don't really enjoy much of the high-profile projects out there but it seems that many other readers do, and if huge sales on the latest Bendis/JMS-written Illuminati-Hulk-X-thing-Avengers mega-event is what's necessary to keep less successful (but better, IMHO) titles like The Immortal Iron Fist, She-Hulk, and The Punisher afloat, I'll take it.       

[tommyboy]

........but I'd take an earnest attempt at trying something new (Ultron with boobs!) rather than sticking to what is largely an imagined status quo.

Sorry to redact down to one line taken out of context, but I think it worth nipping in the bud the notion that Ultron with boobs is a "new" thing.
1. Jocasta.
2. Alkhema.
3. That "chick" off the "new" battlestar galactica which Bendis himself cited as either inspiration or rationale, (I forget which).
4. The eleventy bazillion books/films/plays/tv shows/comics where gender swap has been done before.

The man has No new ideas.
Not a one.
And some masturbatory rubbish like this may well sell, (after all, pron is by far the most popular and profitable part of the internerd, so why not comics too?) and it's sales may subsidise comics I like reading.
But frankly, if it's a choice between a situation where the Bendisrubbish is hugely popular but we get a tiny minority of good comics that inevitably get cancelled, or no comics at all, I'll take none at all, thanks.
That's just my view, and maybe I'm just particularly tired and jaded today, but if there were never another comic published I'd see it as euthanasia at this point.

[zuludelta]

But frankly, if it's a choice between a situation where the Bendisrubbish is hugely popular but we get a tiny minority of good comics that inevitably get cancelled, or no comics at all, I'll take none at all, thanks.

Tommy, I think you're forgetting Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety-percent of everything is crap."  :lol:

I guess that's the basic difference between our opinions on the current state of Marvel Comics. Sure, the good comics eventually get cancelled, but we also get new, good comics solicited. I enjoy comics enough that I won't let my disappointment with what goes on in the major books to diminish my passion for the medium. I just keep looking for books to like and ignore the ones that I don't.   

[Podmark]

I'm going to have to stand with Zulu on this one. Most of what goes on in the "big books" I find uninteresting to stupid, but there's still a number of books I do enjoy.

As for this thing with the Beyonder, I haven't read the issue, but one thing comes to mind when I heard about it: Bendis, why?

[AfghanAnt]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind Beyonder getting a do-over. I mean he was a horrible idea to begin with and everyone is screaming like he was being featured or even used lately (save the transgender thing in Annihilation). I think maybe this will save the character. I mean the issue itself was slow paced but I am sure it is setting up something else in the future.

FYI Franklin Richard is a mutant with Beyonder-level power so a mutant inhuman with this level doesn't bother me.

[thanoson]

True Dat.

[steamteck]

H

If it weren't for Quesada and Jemas taking risks with the Ultimate line, pushing (and sometimes manufacturing) comics controversy onto the mainstream media, and playing loose with the unofficial (but nonetheless artificial) rules the sometimes overly-anal comic book culture has created, we might not even have any Marvel comics to complain about on message boards today.

After how badly they've mangled things I'm not sure that wouldn't be a good thing. If they had stuck to the "artificial" rules of keeping characters true to their roots and told good heroic stories we might have a  larger and less reviled marvel.

[steamteck]

[


And some masturbatory rubbish like this may well sell, (after all, pron is by far the most popular and profitable part of the internerd, so why not comics too?) and it's sales may subsidise comics I like reading.
But frankly, if it's a choice between a situation where the Bendisrubbish is hugely popular but we get a tiny minority of good comics that inevitably get cancelled, or no comics at all, I'll take none at all, thanks.

I have to agree.

[lugaru]

On marvel being better off without Quesada: quite a few titles including critically acclaimed daredevil and punisher would not exist, together with big chunks of marvel. Remember it's not a subsidized liscensing farm like DC (Time Warner), it actually has to fall back on comics sales (averaging 75% of the top 25 comics each month).

About gender switches, throw the terminatrix on the pile.

[cmdrkoenig67]

On marvel being better off without Quesada: quite a few titles including critically acclaimed daredevil and punisher would not exist, together with big chunks of marvel. Remember it's not a subsidized liscensing farm like DC (Time Warner), it actually has to fall back on comics sales (averaging 75% of the top 25 comics each month).

About gender switches, throw the terminatrix on the pile.

....And Sasquatch/Walter into Wanda into Walter again.