Any News of a FFF3 at all?

[TheMarvell]

I'm curious if there has been any word at all to another game, as I'm way behind on any FF news. From what I can gather, there hasn't been anything. But can anyone clarify if there's been anything at all?

I remember buying the first FF on a whim. I never heard anything about the game. I just read a couple of high scoring reviews of the game, and went with my impulse and bought it. I didn't think it was even popular, so I was surprised when they announced a sequel. So I'm hoping to be surprised again with a 3rd game, but haven't heard anything.

[stumpy]

I may have missed something, but I think that the only news has been non-news. E.g., someone mentioned Ken Levine in an interview or two where he failed to mention the Freedom Force franchise at all. Of course, that is disappointing, but it really means just about nothing. Often, developers want to stay "on message" about current projects and, even in a free-ranging interview, he might not have wanted to stir speculation and then have to contend with pleas from fans when he is not in a position to provide any information.

BTW, I have a similar story of how I came across the game. In a 2003 conversation about hobbies at school, I mentioned that I didn't play any computer games on the PC or on any console, sort of atypical of a techie like myself. The guy who sat at the adjacent desk mentioned that I might like Freedom Force and should download the demo. I immediately forgot all about it and never downloaded anything. Then, about a year later, I saw FF in the $10 rack at Best Buy, thought "I think that's the game Emmet mentioned", and decided to give it a shot. Hundreds of hours of gaming and thousands of lines of python later, here I am. ^_^

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Several months ago, Computer Gaming World, before it became Games for Windows, asked Ken straight out and he flat out said that it was unlikely to ever happen because sales for FFvTTR were too low.

[stumpy]

Which has been true from the outset. If he (or whoever makes that sort of decision now) doesn't think there will be sales enough to make a profit on it, it won't happen. The same reality for any commercial game, pretty much.

I missed that interview, but I wonder if he was asked the more important question of why he thinks the sales for FFvT3R were so much lower than for the first game? That's what I want to know. Was it it poor marketing? Was the sequel too similar to the original? Is there just not much market for superhero games that don't feature well-known characters and/or a movie tie-in to bolster sales? Levine has also mentioned that online distribution is the only future for niche games, so I wonder if the advertising and distribution overhead overwhelm the bottom line for a franchise like FF.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

The interview was about Bioshock, so only one question was directed at FF.

I saw one website that had predictions for this year in gaming.  One of them was that with Bioshock, Irrational would once again make a totally awesome game that no one would know about or buy.

[JKCarrier]

I missed that interview, but I wonder if he was asked the more important question of why he thinks the sales for FFvT3R were so much lower than for the first game? That's what I want to know.

I remember a brief comment in PC GAMER a while back (also in an article about Bioshock) where he seemed to think the WWII setting was the problem. There's probably some truth to that, but I suspect the real problem was that City of Heroes came along in the meantime and basically stole their audience.

[Epimethee]

I remember a brief comment in PC GAMER a while back (also in an article about Bioshock) where he seemed to think the WWII setting was the problem. There's probably some truth to that, but I suspect the real problem was that City of Heroes came along in the meantime and basically stole their audience.

If KL really thought that this was the main reason for the lack of sales, I'd say he was in denial mode at the time.

And, I certainly hope that CoH didn't play that big a part, because it would mean the market for games like these is depressingly small.

[stumpy]

It's interesting that Ken would think it was the WW2 setting that was the issue, because 1) he had said before the game came out that they chose that setting because it's a popular one with a built-in audience and 2) that would tend to mean that the hunt should be on for a setting with greater sales potential.

I give some credibility to FF's position outside the MMORPG market as a limitation on sales. And that seems like sort of a nasty catch twenty-two. There is a huge advantage to the online multiplayer games in that you have other humans running the other characters, so those characters are going to have AI that is smart and interesting in ways that we really can't duplicate via scripting. To wit, interacting with other people is fun.

(This is a total aside, but I have wondered if we could add a little tactic-specific dialog subsection to the AI that M25 has created. E.g., when the AI-controlled characters switch to "guard" mode on of them says, "Let's protect the boss!"; when one is trying to get in range for a power, he says, "Almost close enough..."; when using nature master, he says, "Even the trees are on my side."; etc. Seems like, with some extensibility, there could be dialog packs people could add to give the AI-controlled characters more personality.)

At the same time, it would be nearly impossible in an MMORPG to have the variety of powers and other customization that we have in FF (both built in and scripted) and maintain any kind of game balance. People are just too good at optimizing and eventually a few "killer combinations" of nearly unstoppable powers would dominate the game. (And, it might be that way already. Even with a more limited power set, people still tend toward building the ultimate beast.) In a single-player game, this is less of a problem because people are only playing against their PCs. In an MMORPG, maintaining game balance has got to be an absolute nightmare.

In reality, I guess I don't know that CoH impacted FFvT3R sales. It's just as likely that there would be a synergy between the two, with the former satisfying people who want better interaction and team play and the latter satisfying people who want more diverse and customized characters.

I would be curious what fraction of FF/FFvT3R players really get into the fan-created aftermarket for the game that we are all part of. I remember complaints on FFans (and here, too) about people saying the game sucked because they went through the campaign in fifteen hours and now they are bored. It made me think those people were clueless because I easily spent way more time playing mods and in the DR/RR than playing the built-in campaigns. But, I think DrMike2000 once mentioned the number of downloads for FFX and, though a number in the thousands, it was still a small fraction of the total sales of FF. It seems like most players were missing out on one of the game's biggest draws and I don't know if IG was ever able to change that...

[Jakew]

Well, the game was supported with very little marketing from what I could see, aside from positive editorial coverage and a couple of one-page ads in a few comics. What they should do (if they ever decided to a third title) is some promotional tie-ins with upcoming comic films, have a presence at conventions, tons of interviews, maybe a few 'create a character' activities, in addition to print ads.

In short, I'd blame lack of marketing $$$ for poor sales, not the game itself, which is charming and unique, and got great reviews.

[DrMike2000]

I'd side with Levine in citing the WWII setting as one of the reasons why FFvTTR failed.
Yes, he is also correct that there is a good market for WW II games, they appeal to people who are looking for a very grim and gritty historically accurate experience, and Im afraid a genie on a flying carpet might be a bit of a turn off for them :)

WW II Superheroics is an extremely niche market.

I hate to say it, but I think FF suffered as a whole from going the retro-Kirby vibe. Im glad that it did because I absolutely loved it, but then, Im a big geek and understood all the references.

Ive seen a lot of mention of FF on the CoH boards get greeted with "Oh, that cheesy game with the ZAP! POW! graphics? That looked crap!" Lord knows what they thought when they saw more of the same but set in the 1940's. It sure wasnt "Oh, I want to buy that!".

City of Heroes in comparison is a completely charmless beast. (I say that despite being a regular player)
Some of the enemy factions are kind of cool, but it lacks the humour and style of Freedom Force. But in doing so it appeals to as broad an audience as possible. And the humour and style are there when you look for it, in thye characters the players come up with.

To sum up, I doubt there will be a FF3.
Pity.

Oh, one more thing...
Irrational could have advertised the mod scene for FF a whole lot more if everyone and their dog didnt break the EULA and make mods featuring copyrighted characters. You know who you are.... :)

[HumanTon]

I think the retro setting of FFVTR probably hurt its sales ... but like Dr. Mike, I suspect the 60s setting and comic tone hurt the sales of the original FF, too.  It pains me to admit it given how much I love the Golden and Silver ages.

Why did FFVTR do worse than the original FF, though? Here are my prime suspects:

1) Self-publishing. I think Vivendi actually put the product in boxes, but FFVTR was for the most part self-published by Irrational. They handled the advertising, the press, and so on.

Self-publishing is really, really hard. I know from personal experience that it's vastly more difficult for a little company to get attention than it is for a giant corporation with a ton of money to spend.

2) It was unclear whether FFVTR was an expansion or a sequel. People have very different expectations about the two beasts. A graphics facelift and a few new features is fine for an expansion, but a sequel is supposed to be a major upgrade, particularly when it comes to graphics.

FFVTR wasn't called an expansion, so everyone used their sequel expectations on it. Naturally they were disappointed. My guess is that Irrational didn't call it an expansion because you didn't need the first game and they wanted to attract new players ... but that strategy blew up in their face.

3) There was no new "I must get this because...." feature. If you didn't buy FF there was nothing about FFVTR that would make you reconsider, like (for example) skies or grappling or aerial melee or a full-featured vehicle system.

Even if you were a hard-core FF fanatic FFVTR wasn't a clearly must-buy. Yes, it had some cool new game features, but a lot of those were already available for free in FFX. (I feel for Irrational, who put a lot of work into their mod community only to end up with inadvertantly competing with it when creating the expansion. Of course, one solution to that would be to recruit the community to work on the expansion, as the Civilization guys have done.)

Furthermore, one of the huge advantages of FF--the vast library of user-created meshes and skins--became harder to use with the expansion instead of easier due to the whole Nif conversion thing. So even today we have people saying, "I've been playing FF since it came out, but is it really worth it to switch to FFVTR?"

(It's well worth switching, in my opinion, but there's no denying it was a huge pain converting all those meshes!)

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

It was unclear whether FFVTR was an expansion or a sequel. People have very different expectations about the two beasts. A graphics facelift and a few new features is fine for an expansion, but a sequel is supposed to be a major upgrade, particularly when it comes to graphics.

All they had to do was call it a stand-alone expansion.  Such things are actually quite common and are usually named in a similar fashion.  Homeworld: Cataclysm, for instance.

[stumpy]

I agree that IG should have been more clear about what FFvT3R really was in relation to the first game. I'm not sure it would have helped sales any, but still...

I am surprised at the number of people I've encountered who don't give the game a chance because they are unimpressed with the graphics, or who assume the game is "old" because other games have flashier visuals. This is especially odd to me because I could care less about the graphics, as long as it's good enough. When I played the demo for the second game, my reaction to the improved graphics engine was that it was better, but, basically, "Fine, now let's see what's actually new under the hood."

After I played MUA, a friend who has seen FFvT3R but not really played it said, "It's kind of like an upgraded Freedom Force, right?", when I was thinking that it was a downgrade from Freedom Force, just being the same basic slash-and-bash game I could have bought ten years ago, except for fancier graphics. (And, obviously, I'm not claiming my first impression is all there is to MUA, just all I experienced.)

Anyway, that sort of thing leads me to worry that any follow-on to the FF franchise (whether by IG/T2 or whoever tries next) will have to pay a lot more tribute at the alter of kewl grafix to succeed in the market, leaving people like me very little reason to buy the game.


Back to the main point, I still have the impression that misdirected or mediocre marketing was the biggest problem for FFvT3R. Other things, like more emphasis on the availability of fan-created add-ons, a present-day campaign setting (which would include art assets for people making present-day mods), technical improvements like air-to-air and ground-to-air melee, more straightforward (and cooperative) multiplayer, and so on were doubtless factors, too. But, I ran into lots of people who were comic fans, comic book-based movie fans, and general video gamers who have never even heard of FF franchise, which sounds like a marketing problem to me.

(I still think a largely unaddressed question is how the first game could have done so well and the second so poorly. Was that just the difference between EA's marketing efforts and IG/VU's?)

[Epimethee]

I hate to say it, but I think FF suffered as a whole from going the retro-Kirby vibe. Im glad that it did because I absolutely loved it, but then, Im a big geek and understood all the references.

For the first game, I think it was brilliant: 3D technology was limited to lower polygon count, so as it was going to look blocky anyway, the Kyrby look was an elegant solution. Obviously, the parodic/hommage aspect is lost on the Liefield (or any other savour of the week with only superficial skills) crowd. For the second game, though, I think they should have gone for a more detailed look than they did, as, comparatively to the situation when FF1 was launched, FFvsTTR looked more dated versus other games released at the time.

Irrational could have advertised the mod scene for FF a whole lot more if everyone and their dog didnt break the EULA and make mods featuring copyrighted characters. You know who you are.... :)

OK, OK, I'll admit to that Kevin Matchstick skin. :P

But then again, I think IG had the wrong attitude toward the issue. Their attitude was basically "we can't do anything for fear of copyright infringement (they did release MAX files, though), you can't speak of copyrighted material" (driving regular fans to independent sites such as FR and letting the new fan stumble upon these other sites or go away for good). Hmmm... reminds me a lot of my main client these last few months. :huh:

Instead, they could have hosted original or FF-based content, thus stimulating the creation of licit material. Yes there would still have been as much material they couldn't associate themselves with available "out there", but there would have been a whole lot more material they could show to attract and keep users, maybe even long enough to sell profitably an expansion pack or two, plus a sequel.

[Epimethee]

Back to the main point, I still have the impression that misdirected or mediocre marketing was the biggest problem for FFvT3R.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I can only agree. From my not really informed standpoint, it looked like they didn't have the resources, they didn't have the expertise and they didn't think it was important.

(I still think a largely unaddressed question is how the first game could have done so well and the second so poorly. Was that just the difference between EA's marketing efforts and IG/VU's?)

The marketing effort for FF1, had – voluntarily or not – a few solid viral components:

1. By releasing mod tools well in advance, there was already a community and user-created content from day one.

2. The *new* unique look, while maybe not too popular with the mainstream public, certainly made the game stand out for gaming publications.

3. FF1 was the first well-enough executed (in part for technological reasons) superhero game. This freshness catched interest, particularly for the aforementioned gaming publications (if only because they were expecting another "curse of the superhero game")

Also, superheroes were "in", as Hollywood was starting its super-craze.

[Outcast]

I think what made FF1 so popular was because the overall feel of the game was new and unique. The game play really captured that nostalgic comic book feel,giving you control of a wide array of super heroes.What really made the difference was the game lets you bring to life your  very own custom super heroes and even your favorite comic book characters come to life! (Thanks to the very talented and selfless efforts of its fan based community. :cool:)
FFVT3R while it had an improved,brighter graphics and a cast of new characters maybe it should have focused and improved on making its create a superhero more diverse.Like what others have mentioned,more options in terms of animation for example melee battle from the air.A wide array of new powers and attributes added perhaps.Just a little more effects and options to make your superhero more personal and unique.Maybe also add a more easier way of customizing skins and meshes. :P
The point is FFVT3R did not add that much. It just had better graphics.I think its more of like a mod of FF1. If that is the case, I think this community can very well come up with its own version of Freedom Force 3. :lol: Then again, I might be wrong. :huh:

[lugaru]

Yeah, for me Freedom Force is now up there with Army of Darkness (the movie) and Fallout (the gaming franchise). You know, stuff with a huge cult following where they say it's not economically viable to make a sequel since the creative team has moved on to more lucrative pastures. But then again there's a fallout sequel coming out so you never know. Still I think if they put FFVT3R on steam or game tap it would see a new life like family guy did on DVD.

About freedom force just out of nowhere I decided today that Im fine with it being over, but I hope irrational makes a new superhero game in the future even if it dosent feature Minute Man and El Diablo. What they need to do (and there's a game cashing in on this called Notorious) is create a modern game to capture the fantasies of a million heroes viewers.

You know, modern day setting, make your OWN heroes (a big draw in city of heroes), and open to easier modding a la Sims 2. Personally I would love a superhero game that allows you to build your character from ingame pieces and outfit pieces made by modders.

About the community creating it's own FF3 the only downside is that making a mod is in the end a lot of work, ask any of the people on this thread. Irrational succeeded in making a game that was very flexible but at the expense of requiring lots of code and man hours to produce something.

[Boalt92]

Out of curiosity...how well did the first really do?

I mean, were sales "good for a small company" or was it a real blockbuster?  I ask because I'm not sure.  I also ask because, if FF1 sales were that strong, wouldn't they have invested more time and/or effort into creating a full fledged sequel?  Or a series of expansions?

The first game really was innovative, but it seemed to me to be more of a niche market game anyway...particularly compared to the success of COH.

IMHO, as always.

B92

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I mean, were sales "good for a small company" or was it a real blockbuster?  I ask because I'm not sure.  I also ask because, if FF1 sales were that strong, wouldn't they have invested more time and/or effort into creating a full fledged sequel?  Or a series of expansions?

I know for a fact that it was never a major blockbuster.  In fact, I know quite a few people who would absolutely love this game if they had ever heard of it.

But it did sell well enough to make a decent profit, and thus a sequal.

[Symon]

Another problem with FF3R that hurt it was the useless international distribution. Some people will doubtless shudder if I mention the British distributors, Digital Jesters (Thankfully resting, hopefully not peacefully, the idiots!). I believe the French and German distributions were even worse.

For those that don't recall, how well do you think a game that is advertised as moddable on the box, but isn't will do? Doubtless many will recall the 350MB (?) modding patch that was belatedly released by DJ.

[lugaru]

And yeah, I play the game to death but I must admit the american release was kind of lackluster... a box, two black and white cd's and a cheapish manual. Seriosly I wish they would have gone digital distribution, it would of probably done them a lot of good.

Also like IPS said, they should of listened. Check out fireaxis and the new civ expansion... it's almost based around mods other people have made and they included 3 fan favorite mods. Had irrational payed more attention to the community they would have had a much more solid "sequel" too.

[Boalt92]

Great topic, btw....

While going through the mod docs, I noticed these voice IDs:

Code Select Expand

VC - vietcong
VP - vietcong pilots


Is it possible that the original conception of FFVTTR was intended, as IPS said, to cover multiple time periods?  Did they run out of money, or were there other priorities (i.e. Bioshock) that sucked the meat out of FF2 (or whatever it was to be named) before it got finished?

B92

[GogglesPizanno]

Thats weird....
I was looking for a Vietcong mesh and/or skin the other day, and on a google search I found a reference to those vietcong characters as well. Apparently Ken Levine was credited with the voicework for them.

[HumanTon]

Great topic, btw....

While going through the mod docs, I noticed these voice IDs:

Code Select Expand

VC - vietcong
VP - vietcong pilots


Is it possible that the original conception of FFVTTR was intended, as IPS said, to cover multiple time periods?  Did they run out of money, or were there other priorities (i.e. Bioshock) that sucked the meat out of FF2 (or whatever it was to be named) before it got finished?

B92

FFVTR *did* cover multiple time periods--1962 and WWII. The Viet Cong references are probably just something that was cut from the 1962 section. Perhaps the Cuba parts originally were supposed to take place in Vietnam?

You can find traces of the same sort of cut stuff in the orginal FF. Originally the whole game was supposed to take place in New York City (remember the original Web site?) The mission where the aliens attack the museum was supposed to take place at the United Nations. At some point they changed it to the fictional Patriot City, though lots of NYC still shows through--the university is obviously Columbia, the skyscraper is obviously the Empire State Building, etc.

[zuludelta]

Lots of interesting points raised in this thread. One thing I think Irrational missed the boat on was providing an easier method with which regular players could create custom skins. I'm pretty sure most everybody who played the game wanted to have their own characters replace the in-game ones, but at the same time, not everybody could be buggered to learn how to use Photoshop or GIMP. What happened was that players became dependent on third-parties (i.e., the skinners and meshers of the community) to create custom content for them. If a player didn't have any contact with the greater FF community, they were pretty much on their own. If you look at a game like City of Heroes, part of the appeal is the deep in-game character customization aspect. No need for expertise in skinning to create a reasonably custom skin. 

And I'm not even thinking of anything too complicated in terms of skinning tools... I think it was BeardedinLair who wrote a program that would allow a player to mix-and-match (to a degree) parts of pre-existing skins and get them to display on the same mesh (I remember testing it out when it was a work-in-progress, don't remember if he released it to the community though). Irrational could have made a similar tool and packaged it with a batch of generic skins that players could choose their parts from.

[stumpy]

I think that's a great point about having more easily customizable skins. It almost seems like the most basic aspect of getting the right look for a character involved a skillset that most people don't have. Given the very real appeal of custom characters in the game, I think this became almost an immediate stumbling block for people. Moreover, since Irrational didn't provide this tool, many people took to using the skins for copyrighted characters because those were produced in such abundance and were easy to search for. (I.e., it's easy for me to Google down a Professor Zoom costume, but hard to track down a yellow body suit with red lighting around the waist and wrists.) Since, IG couldn't support those copyrighted skins, I think it failed to play up one of the best aspects of the game, seeing customization as a gateway to potential legal trouble more than as a way to grow the game's fan base.

(I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been plenty of people who wanted to play copyrighted characters anyway. I'm just saying that the lack of a basic skinning tool actually made it easier to do that than to do something original.)

[Lunarman]

I still think the marketing was off. When I bought my Euro copy it took loads of work to make it open for modding. What needed to be done was make modding more available and obvious. The real charm of FF lies in the modding factor and making it a pain in the arse to do, and not even possible at first glance really hindered the games sale.

The strange thing is, I've seen plenty of magazines with very good reviews for FFVTTR. If only they had said, "a game were you can create your own superhero team and battle supervillains to save the world" rather than "superheroes without any real powers take on the nazis" they might have had a chance.

[Outcast]

I totally agree with Zuludelta ,Stumpy, Lunarman , and Lugaru on the fact that Irrational Games just made its customization of characters,skins,and mods a bit tough for regular players to take advantage of. Although its great to learn new stuff like using Photo shop and such,some people might find that a bit troublesome and time consuming. If it were not for some skin tutorials,and the tons of meshes and skins available on the internet,frankly i would have played the game less often.Even stop after just finishing the campaign.Maybe comeback after a few years time ;), but it just ain't the same when you have your very own custom heroes or favorite comic book characters to watch in action over and over again.
If Irrational Games was afraid of copyright infringement from the other comic book companies,it could have at least given the players more ways to custom generic original heroes.I was surprised to see how few generic heroes were added in FFVT3R.
The only reason i can think of was maybe Irrational Games was banking too much on their Freedom Force Characters, the story and a few minor adjustments to carry their sales of the game.What they probably failed to realize was, maybe much of the success of FF1 was due in part to its fan community sharing tons of new options for the game.Like for example the very first danger room Alex made.Which they fortunately added in time. Not to mention the additional effects,skins,meshes,key frames,etc.,all courtesy again of the community.Who knows probably an EZ skinning tool in the future as well.Hehehe. :lol: If only they followed suit. :( The game's replay value as well as its sales might have soared.
Still, I have to admit,the Freedom Force cast of characters are good comic book characters.The story interesting and entertaining to say the least. I still would have bought the game just to know how their story continued.Though I was really expecting more chances to create my own superhero of course.
As of now,its seems there are no news of a FF3 in the making.Even though FF was a classic and even made IGN's top 100 games.http://top100.ign.com/2005/081-090.html
Or then again there is a chance Irrational is just keeping it hush hush,and we will have to wait as long as we did for Star craft 2. :wacko:
But what if FF3 did come along. And Irrational Games made the same mistake again.There is a whole bunch of new heroes and villains added,a new interesting story and plot,and a few minor adjustments again.Probably graphics and speed of the game. Would all you guys still be interested? Hmmm. I think i still would be. :P It would be very curious to see how the Freedom Force characters would have evolved in the silver age.Any of you guys have any ideas how Minuteman,El Diablo,Manbot,and Alchemiss would look like in the silver age? My imagination is running wild!  :rolleyes:

[yell0w_lantern]

I've given up on the idea of any support for FF1, FF2 or even the possibility of FF3.
I have written an email to the Irrational address asking them to release the source code. I urge anyone interested in further Freedom Force development to do the same. And certainly, if somebody knows a better email address to use please share it so we can lobby to get the future of Patriot City put in the hands of its fans.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That source code, while it may not be used again for FF, will likely be put to use in the future.  In addition, parts of the code using the .nif system, in other words, virtually the entire graphics engine, is not there, but was purchased at considerable price and cannot be given away to anyone unless that was specified in the contract agreement.

Begging for a sequal, if done by enough people, could get results, although I doubt we have enough to make much of any impact.  Demanding the source code by a couple of rapid fans will make them look very, very poorly on us and will make it even more likely that they'll never do anything for the fans again.