Superman/ Doomsday - Possible Spoilers

JeyNyce · September 18, 2007, 11:17:35 AM

I just finish watching the DVD and all I can say is WOW. The beginning & middle was good, the ending was a bit lagging I guess.

[spoiler]There is a lot a killing/ deaths in the beginning. Almost everybody Doomsday comes in contact with he kills. Toyman is in the movie (really didn't care for this version) but Supes (clone) took him out with no mercy. Even Lex killed in cold blood early in the movie. This is not you JLU movie. This is not for kids[/spoiler]

Midnite · September 18, 2007, 01:11:40 PM

I thought the animation was better than the Ultimates 1 & 2, Iron Man, and Dr. Strange. Not because it was Bruce Timm, it was just well done. But I did have a problem with the cheeks on Sups. He looked like Pruneman.

BentonGrey · September 18, 2007, 10:07:06 PM

They have been getting that way progressively through each incarnation. At first, he looked like your average Superman in TAS, then, we get the two lines in JLU, and now....pruneman. ^_^

afterburn · September 19, 2007, 09:09:41 PM

No real spoilers so no point for the tag. I was duly impressed. After seeing the lackluster efforts of the Iron Man and Dr. Strange movie, I was thinking that DCAU was going to have a similar fate as Marvel's. But no, even though a lot of major details of this movie and the comics are different, the feel is there. You really get the feeling of Metropolis being Superman's city, and how much he meant to everyone. I agree, the ending lagged on a bit considering the amazing action in the beginning. The fight scenes were really well done and you finally get a feel of the impact of the fighter's blows. Although they got a few shots from the comics here and there, small things, one thing I was really looking forward to was a slow motion high impact punch by both combatants that shattered all the glass. The one final blow to both of them that would end it. I missed that, but otherwise, highly exceeded my expectations. Looking forward to the Justice League and Teen Titans efforts on DCAU's part.

BentonGrey · September 19, 2007, 09:56:05 PM

I've got a question, do the league show up in this at all, a la the comics?

crimsonquill · September 19, 2007, 11:20:22 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on September 19, 2007, 09:56:05 PM
I've got a question, do the league show up in this at all, a la the comics?

[spoiler]No, no other heroes show up in the movie at all... The behind the scenes interviews talk about this story taking place in an alternate world where there are no other heroes - mostly because aquiring the rights for the other DC characters would be an extra expence since they would just be standing around or walking around in the background during the funeral. Once they decided to revamp the look of Toyman into a modern version (ala Goth-looking adult child) they would need to do face what every other hero might look like and it just got easier to focus on just Superman.[/spoiler]

- CrimsonQuill

BentonGrey · September 20, 2007, 08:54:14 AM

All the more reason it should have been in the JLU universe. ^_^

Flying_Infant · September 20, 2007, 09:10:33 AM

Yeah, I agree on that. I thought it was a good watch, but now I'm kinda dissappointed I spent $16 on it.

The action scenes were great, and yeah, it did give a good feeling of Metropolis and all, but it seemed they just went all willy nilly with stuff, paying the least amout of attention possible to the source material.

Kinda like my beef with X3, they took a general idea from a great story, and just used that as a LOOSE base to run silly with it.

I expect this from Marvel, but I didn't expect it from DC.

Heres hoping the next movie is better.

BentonGrey · September 20, 2007, 09:31:28 AM

Well, the be fair, the Death of Superman story is hardly great literature. It had tons of plot holes and was, ultimately, a contrived way to raise sales.

stumpy · September 20, 2007, 11:09:31 AM

Yeah, the "Death of Superman" arc was just really weak overall. Even people like me who didn't like the Byrned Superman thought that the character deserved better than that sort of empty, meaningless passing at the hands of a contrived baddy with no history or stature among Superman's rogues.

The business end of it seemed odd, too. I mean, Moore's "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Steel" story that closed out the Earth-1 Kal's run was easily far better than the Doomsday story. It was a clever story, but it never lost the familiar feel of the characters (Kal, his friends, or even the villains, mostly) or the respect for the era it bookended. When DC was planning the DoS arc, why didn't they demand that the story be that good? If you are going to publicize a story arc as the biggest thing to happen to your flagship character in decades (and DC did publicize the heck out of it), shouldn't it be at least a really good story? Why let that kind of event degrade into something where a few years later so many people look back and think it was somewhere between forgettable and outright lame?

(BTW, of course I have met a few people who liked the arc, but they usually want to include the longer-term aftereffects in the introduction of the "Reign of the Supermen" characters and so on. Very few people I've met think that the DoS story was notable on its own merits.)

Anyway, that all said, I am still tempted to spend the three or fourteen dollars to rent or buy this. Initially, I didn't even know that it was an adaptation of the old DoS storyline. When I found out that it was, I lost interest. But, the fact that Bruce Timm is involved and the potentially interesting voice work by Marsters and Baldwin got me curious again (and I am one of those people who like the commentary tracks on DVDs). Add to that the fact that, browsing the Amazon.com reviews, it looks like many of the people who thought the original was great seem to dislike this. That also helps it, in my view.

Protomorph · September 20, 2007, 02:00:55 PM

Well, I have just watched this (rented it) and am fairly impressed by it. Not only was the action very fast paced and exiting, the body count was staggering. I was a little taken aback that the plot was so...different, but that's ok, I guess.

AfghanAnt · September 20, 2007, 04:45:55 PM

I really hated the Lois Lane's voice, other than that I thought it was ok. I'd watch it again on Cartoon Network but I don't think it matched the hype.

detourne_me · September 20, 2007, 09:00:35 PM

it was fun. i like all the murder and death. it was better than superman returns, but about on par with superman: braniac attacks.
i'm hoping New Frontier will be better.

SingleMalt · September 21, 2007, 04:38:29 PM

Can't say I like the artist's conception of strong cheek bones but this looks good. I assume we get to see Superman's return and demise of Doomday right?

Courtnall6 · September 21, 2007, 05:35:38 PM

It was entertaining. The animation during the fight scenes were almost as good as Superman VS Captain Marvel in the Clash. I didnt like that it wasnt part of the JLU universe and that no other heroes were at Superman's funeral.

And those hideous cheek bones! :thumbdown:

Why is DC so anti-Timm style these days?

JeyNyce · September 21, 2007, 06:10:29 PM

QuoteWhy is DC so anti-Timm style these days?

They are not anti-Timm, but wants to break away from the JLU style, I guess. They want to try something different.

BentonGrey · September 21, 2007, 06:37:09 PM

You know, I really have no problem with trying a new art style, I was never actually crazy about the SUPER stylized look of JLU, although I loved Batman:TAS unabashedly. I just wish that they would find something that they can produce with the same quality of JLU, not like the Batman or Teen Titans, where they are trying so hard to be 'hip' it hurts. What bothers me is that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini, the two men who I feel have the best grasp of these characters, they just really know them, are being taken out of the picture.

I've said this before, and I'll probably say it again, I would love to see them take on an ongoing Aquaman toon, with a brand new art style. Something dynamic and flowy...haha. Really though, you could take that same idea and do it with any other DC character. We could see a Green Arrow show (springing off of the popularity of Smallville), or I KNOW that I'd watch a show based around The Question in a minute!.

steamteck · September 22, 2007, 09:14:48 AM

Quote from: detourne_me on September 20, 2007, 09:00:35 PM
it was fun. i like all the murder and death. it was better than superman returns, but about on par with superman: braniac attacks.
i'm hoping New Frontier will be better.

Not encouraging. I thought Brainiac attacks was Super-awful!!!. I'll give it a try anyway.

stumpy · September 22, 2007, 12:48:52 PM

It wasn't that bad (I think I liked it a little more than Brainiac Attacks) and I enjoyed the extras. And, as a side benefit, I was having trouble when I first tried watching it, so I popped in my The Usual Suspects DVD to check the player and watched that for the first time in years. Good stuff, kids. :D

I must say, I was expecting something a little different from the voice work. The only really distinctive voices were that flinty voice of Anne Heche and the vaguely "Bender Bending Rodriguez" voice of the Toyman. Marsters was good as Luthor, but I guess years of Buffy lead me to expect something more reminiscent of a certain bloody awful poet.

As someone not impressed by the original DoS arc in the comics, I wasn't disappointed to see that they only stuck to it only as a skeleton script. Unfortunately, the parts of the post-Doomsday comic book arc that were pretty good (the Kent's reactions, the Funeral for a Friend arc) were only touched on here. And, the Reign of the Supermen arc was compressed into one substitute, presumably for time reasons, but it was pretty good.

BTW, just in case anyone was planning on showing this to their little kids: The PG-13 designation is not a joke. There is a lot of fairly graphic fighting, including people dying, and there are several "adult situation" scenes that you don't necessarily want to be explaining to a five-year-old.

PS: There were a few nice touches like the guest line by Kevin Smith, too.
[spoiler]At 38:30, right after Superman (the clone) defeats Toyman's robot arachnid, the guy who says, "Like we really needed him to bust up a mechanical spider, right? Lame." is voiced by Kevin Smith.[/spoiler]

Protomorph · September 23, 2007, 06:50:01 AM

Quote from: stumpy on September 22, 2007, 12:48:52 PM

PS: There were a few nice touches like the guest line by Kevin Smith, too.
[spoiler]At 38:30, right after Superman (the clone) defeats Toyman's robot arachnid, the guy who says, "Like we really needed him to bust up a mechanical spider, right? Lame." is voiced by Kevin Smith.[/spoiler]

Interesting. While I knew it was supposed to be him (I have heard him tell that story), I didn't know it actually was.

DMenacer · September 23, 2007, 10:16:40 AM

I'll got the book and its odd that the JLa don't show up until his funeral. In the animated version, are they not in it even there?

Night Dragon · September 23, 2007, 10:31:53 AM

Quote from: DMenacer on September 23, 2007, 10:16:40 AM
I'll got the book and its odd that the JLa don't show up until his funeral. In the animated version, are they not in it even there?

Quote from: crimsonquill on September 19, 2007, 11:20:22 PM

[spoiler]No, no other heroes show up in the movie at all... The behind the scenes interviews talk about this story taking place in an alternate world where there are no other heroes - mostly because aquiring the rights for the other DC characters would be an extra expence since they would just be standing around or walking around in the background during the funeral. Once they decided to revamp the look of Toyman into a modern version (ala Goth-looking adult child) they would need to do face what every other hero might look like and it just got easier to focus on just Superman.[/spoiler]

- CrimsonQuill

EDIT: IIRC, the line from Kevin Smith is also a bit of an inside joke as well. His script for the Superman movie had Big Blue fighting the same thing.

stumpy · September 23, 2007, 01:27:06 PM

Yeah, Kevin Smith has an anecdote about a Superman movie he was asked to script in the 90s. WB told him to pitch his idea to a producer and the producer ended up having all sorts of wacko ideas about the character and what should be in the movie. One of them was that Superman should fight a giant spider. He was very insistent about it, and Smith talked to the other big wigs and they said, basically, humor him about the !%$& spider, so KS wrote in a scene with Supes fighting a spider.

That was the ref in this movie. BTW, if you search for Kevin Smith Superman on youtube, you will find the clip where Smith tells that anecdote. It is pretty funny.

BTW, regarding the lack of other DCU characters in the movie, is it really true that WB doesn't allow different DC productions to use WB properties without charging them? I watch the commentary on the DVD and didn't hear them mention that. I guess I wouldn't doubt it, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Where's the synergy in that? Is some third party making these movies and making the money off of them and just paying WB royalties for use of the characters? I thought this was an all WB production...

crimsonquill · September 23, 2007, 01:59:25 PM

Quote from: stumpy on September 23, 2007, 01:27:06 PM
BTW, regarding the lack of other DCU characters in the movie, is it really true that WB doesn't allow different DC productions to use WB properties without charging them? I watch the commentary on the DVD and didn't hear them mention that. I guess I wouldn't doubt it, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Where's the synergy in that? Is some third party making these movies and making the money off of them and just paying WB royalties for use of the characters? I thought this was an all WB production...

I think that most of DC's characters fall under a single umbrella as long as they are animated... which I'm sure is part of Bruce Timm's deal doing JL and JLU. However certain characters are still needed to get individual rights for... Blue Beetle for example which DC just "fixed" by killing him off and replacing him with another version of that character. Of course that elimates any story with a classic Booster Gold and Blue Beetle team-up that we always dreamed of. Having a funeral with a who's who of DC superheroes in the background probably would have been a nightmare to deal with if they had to redesign each one unqiue to the style of that movieverse and verify that WB still had the rights to animating that character since it wasn't officially part of the old Timmverse.

I'm not too sure if The Batman's new situation (now adding Justice League members) and the DVD movie projects might change now that DC/WB is getting feedback. I think after the release of New Frontier next year we shall finally start seeing DC/WB finally doing animated projects that will allow true adaptions of graphic novels without squishing them into a short-attention span animated movie format (i.e. 70 to 80 minutes).

Hopefully that made a lot more sense then the first time...

- CrimsonQuill

Panther_Gunn · September 23, 2007, 03:18:21 PM

Quote from: stumpy on September 23, 2007, 01:27:06 PM
Yeah, Kevin Smith has an anecdote about a Superman movie he was asked to script in the 90s. WB told him to pitch his idea to a producer and the producer ended up having all sorts of wacko ideas about the character and what should be in the movie. One of them was that Superman should fight a giant spider. He was very insistent about it, and Smith talked to the other big wigs and they said, basically, humor him about the !%$& spider, so KS wrote in a scene with Supes fighting a spider.

Some of the other conditions he had to contend with was that Supes wear black, no cape, and no flying. I'm told that in Kevin Smith's "The Spoken Word" (or something similarly titled), he tells the story, and also mentions that that particular producer (or could have been director) went on later to do Wild Wild West. I'm sure if you think about it, you'll see where that's going. ;)

GogglesPizanno · September 25, 2007, 10:47:38 AM

I just watched the movie last night and while its a vast improvement over the previous Braniac one... Something still felt missing. I cant quite put my finger on it. Its like it was missing a chunk of the first act, it just felt incomplete to me.

And I agree with others about them needing the Justice League (or other heroes of some kind) in it in some form. I enjoyed the original comic for the marketing gimmick it was (ie. I dont have the bile forming hate that a lot of people do) but I think that a lot of the power and emotion of the fight in the comic book was seeing Doomsday smash his way through every hero that tried to take him on and basically ending with superman as the Last line of defense, refusing to go down where everyone else failed. The movie captured the power of the fight nicely (the scale of the destruction was really cool), but the absence of other heroes somehow just made it felt like a big fight without the emotional resonance of it being the big last stand type of battle.

And those Cheekbones... What is up with that?
That was the most distracting thing for me of the whole movie.
I dont know who thought that was a good design decision.

GrizzlyBearTalon · September 27, 2007, 11:15:42 PM

[spoiler]Watched it and enjoyed the film very much. The story changes in this one were top notch honestly, I think it played off a lot better than the actual storyline from the comics. I do admit the ending lacked a little punch simply because the earlier fight between Superman & Doomsday was more brutal & visceral. The difference in their fighting style also made it more interesting whereas both Supes & his clone fought similarly.

It was quite a change seeing a villain in this style of cartoon really lay into people, even if the gore was off screen it really set a nice mood.

On a side note it seems the animators picked up some moves from wrestling, which just work fantastically with a brute like Doomsday. A couple of the nostalgic exchanges that were taken from the comics were a nice touch, the switch up of finale with Doomsday was an excellent twist.[/spoiler]

steamteck · September 28, 2007, 04:00:29 PM

Without going into great detail, I was pleasently surprised. I in general liked the characterizations and the action was good. Wish it had been a little longer in the "world without Superman" phase but otherwise I liked it much better than the original comic.

MJB · September 28, 2007, 11:14:14 PM

Ok. I haven't seen this movie but I'm wondering...

Is it worth buying?

I don't know where Flying Infant is shopping but at our local Wal-Mart this DVD costs a little under $20. Should I buy the fancy box, rent it or wait for Cartoon Network to air it?

-MJB

stumpy · September 28, 2007, 11:23:00 PM

MJB, I can't tell you if it's worth buying. It's too close to call. I actually enjoy the director's commentary and the other extras on the DVD, so that tipped it for me.

BTW, to shave a few dollars off the decision, it's $14 on amazon. I bought it at target for $15 and I think that's what it cost at Best Buy as well.