Heroes Season 2 Open Discussion

[Conduit]

This is the thread where you can talk about both the cool parts and the shortcomings of the show without spoiling the enjoyment of those who don't want to dwell on that.  If you're one of those people, it would be a good idea not to come in here.

My thoughts on this week:

[spoiler]
Claire's storyline was horrible.  At the beginning of every scene dealing with that, I thought that it couldn't possibly get any worse.  Then it did.  It made me dislike West even more (seriously, "I don't have to listen to my parents because I can fly"? "you're better  than her because you're hot and have a power"?), and I'm actually starting to dislike Claire too.  Their whole plan was so incredibly stupid.  Why risk detection over this?  If Claire had left blood on the bleachers where she fell, or someone had wandered over to where they were, it would have been all over.  And even when they completely succeeded, they left an eyewitness and a police report mentioning Claire supposedly dying and a flying guy.  Exactly what the Bennets need to stay undercover.  And as unlikeable as Debby was, I really don't think she deserved to have that happen to her.

Maya and Alejandro were also really stupid.  Near the beginning, they talked about hiring a coyote to get them across the border.  What happened to that plan?  Did they seriously think they could just find a hole in the fence and drive through it?

Peter ending up in the future has potential, but it feels a lot like a rehash of last season.  The end of it did chill me like many cliffhangers from the previous season, but that was mostly because of the promo after the episode.  It's a shame that it needed that.  Also, the times square green screen effect was horrible.

The pacing was better, but still not that good.  Monica did basically nothing.  Sure, she got an Ipod with a lot of mimicable videos on it, but she could easily have done something equivalent to that by herself.

Hiro's storyline had some very good parts (I love the scene where Kensei got stabbed), but there were some big weaknesses.  There's the very badly done love triangle, and much of it didn't flow well.  Like, why did Hiro teleport away when he was shot at?  They showed time stopping, so he didn't just reflexively teleport away.  With time stopped, he could have just moved the musket ball so it wouldn't hit him, then walked back to where he was and restarted time.  And would it really take several hours to cut through a metal chain with a sword?

On the positive side, HRG is awesome.  His storyline was excellent.  Mohinder's was also pretty good.
[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

I must say that, overall, I liked this episode much more than the last couple. Not all of the arcs were great or anything, but the pacing was much better and I didn't find myself rolling my eyes nearly as much and wondering, "Why are they showing us this?" and feeling like the writers are deliberately writing arcs where nothing really happens.

[spoiler]
I have to agree about the Claire/West story being pretty poor, which has sadly been the case for much of this season. I have to assume that doing something that gets reported to the police is the exact sort of thing that HRG would have warned Claire against. Moreover, it's pretty contrived that the plan to embarrass Debby involved using both Claire and West's powers. And, being caught drinking isn't really much of a social comedown in high school anyway, though, by unplanned coincidence, it left an opening on the cheer squad.

(Not that I feel any sympathy for Debby, though. She's one of these mean little snots who maintains her status by trying to make other people miserable. I wouldn't have cared if they had found some way to make her walk around school naked with a target painted on her butt.)

I know the point of this storyline is at least partly to have Claire and West have a believable relationship, likely to be followed by a formulaic tragedy or separation later on. But, the scene where West first takes Claire flying and they wind up on the beach has been the high point between them so far and this other nonsense is just making them less likable, to me anyway.


I am less disappointed with Maya/Alejandro/Sylar. I mean, their arc for the whole season so far has been 90% holding pattern (which is pretty bad considering Maya and Alejandro are totally new characters). But at least this episode is showing a little character development in that there is friction between Maya and Alejandro, that Maya is corruptible, and that Sylar may be amenable to a change in strategy, which might be interesting. It's still kinda slow and I am not really invested in the twins yet, but at least there is some motion and they are getting to the point where they could meet up with some of the other specials.


Peter and Caitlin: yawn. I really want to like Peter's arc because the story will almost certainly come to center around it, but it seems like just another stalling tactic so far. They got all the way to Montreal and what did they find? A name. Pfeh. Honestly, they could have just skipped all of Peter's storyline so far this season and just had him show up in the future with amnesia and Caitlin and told what little needed to be told of the last several episodes in some expository dialog ("I woke up in a crate in Ireland with no memory and this woman has been helping me.") or in a flashback. What's worse, I haven't seen the preview of the next episode, but this has the earmarks of another foray into nowhere. Peter and Caitlin will spend a short time in 2008, learn some detail about what causes that future or what needs to be done, and then blip back to finally engage one of this season's plot themes.

And, for just losing her brother is a particularly gruesome way, Caitlin didn't seem especially broken up about it.


I think the point of the Monica storyline in this episode was to advance the idea that The Company isn't just a case of moral black and white. It is showing signs of compromising in its methods and people like Bob are listening when Mohinder takes the approach that doing good is as much about means as about ends.


BTW, I like the Bob character. He's supposed to be a bad guy, but I keep expecting him to counter one of Mohinder's objections with "Am-I-right-or-am-I-right-or-am-I-right?" I hope he is around for a while, though I suspect that he may only have an episode or two left before he joins Kaito et alii in the show's mortis personae.


I also think that Mohinder's new partner is more Jessica than Nikki. I was almost expecting to see a tattoo at some point, but I guess we will wait for that.


Hiro's story was better this week than last, but it's still a little forced, I'll agree. And, my biggest problem with that chain-cutting scene was that Kensei used his valuable sword to cut that chain at all. No swordsman would risk dulling or chipping his best blade by hacking away at a steel chain with it. Yeesh.


I like the fact that HRG has a certain cool forcefulness in his arc. But, he is getting sort of ruthless. I mean, what was the point of killing Ivan? He has already said that The Company already knows that he is around and is looking for him. He could have removed Ivan's memories of the visit and slipped away. By the time Ivan or The Company realized what had happened, it could be weeks later. Batman is cool, tough, and scary. But he doesn't pull the trigger. HRG is drawing lines between himself and those I think of as good guys. But, the story arc is great. (I am not one of those who thinks everyone needs to be likable to be watchable. I enjoyed  The Sopranos and I never thought any of those characters - mobsters, cops, wives, kids, celebrity guests and other peripheral schlubs, etc. - were very likable.)


And, I think you have zeroed in on a good point in that the romances on this show are a serious weak aspect of it. I'm not sure if it's just the formulaic writing or if there is just so little chemistry on screen. I don't mind romance and a good portrayal of realism involves people pursuing some sort of love life, but none of what is going on this season is compelling to me. Last season, I thought the Hiro-Charlie romance was great; this season, the romance just grates.
[/spoiler]

[Sevenforce]

My personal opinion on the show now: Just watching it, pretty much for the sake of watching it. Little to nothing makes sense, from the powers, to physics, to character interactions, to romantic(!) entanglements...the list goes on. Its a good show...if you ignore pretty much a lot of whats been established. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely Luh-huh-huv the show, but I do oh so like complaining just a tad bit more :P

Lets start with a few examples...

Maya and Alejandro:
[spoiler]Yes, it WAS nice to get that tiny itty bit of sadistic character development from Sylar...but thats pretty much all I got from this. Same holding pattern, except - Sylar. Yes, Maya and Alejandro argue, but because of Sylar. Yes, people finally properly die from this disease, but because Sylar stopped Alejandro. Oh yeah, and death from disease! ...Um. Why? It's been shown that Alejandro can cure someone even after they've gone all full-stage black eyed, even after a long period - woman who helped them through that pipe, to name one, cops and jailbird, to name two, three and four. Why leave them to die? Alejandro could call it back and they'd spend a few minutes going WTH happened while they hightail it out of there. Bit silly.[/spoiler]

Claire and West:
[spoiler]Oh, sweet mother of Jehosafat. Where did this guy learn the meaning of discrete? Getting noticed by the cops = huge tipoff to the company. Hello, have you heard of blood spatter?! Come on, she hit her damn head and blood was running out of her mouth! Broken bone fragments, lost teeth, any number of things would be falling out of her. Although, considering the height she fell from, I'm surprised anything above her thighs was damaged, I mean, she fell straight down. It wasn't even that high! Sheesh. Also - what high school, in this modern day and age, doesn't have security cameras? Even in Podunk County with a grand total of 50 people the high school would have security cameras. Major creepiness with the parents...how does Claire even like this guy? Because he has a power? Wha? Although then again she was falling all over Peter when she discovered him, maybe its just her fetish or something. I'll have to join the 'West is with the company' bandwagon, but on the subject of his parents...he doesn't have to have run away from home, he could fly in and stop over without his parents ever knowing...Although a locked window would be a pain :D (Note: Even flying weirdos need to lay their head somewhere to sleep (meaning grounded or at the very least highrise building or tree, which is all sorts of uncomfortable/noticable - not like that would matter to Mr Subtlety)) [/spoiler]

Speaking of Peter...:
[spoiler]Totally agree with Stumpy. Absolutely zero advance to their storyline over the past few weeks...they could have started it off here and we'd have missed nothing. There's not even any development cos Tada! He has amnesia, and development = 0 when its reset. Heck, he won't even have any cool scars to remind him of this experience, because of healing. Yeah, his chick seemed REALLY upset her brother had been, you know, flash fried, but hey. That could be shown offscreen, right? The future seems really, really familiar...weapon of mass death...hmmm...that seems familiar. Maybe instead of Biological or Nuclear next time they'll go for New York being destroyed by the man made of water. They could even reuse footage! Heh. Poor New York. I mean, yeah, theres a reason why shows/movies always destroy New York/Manhattan but for the life of me it escapes me right now[/spoiler]

HRG...WOO! Love the guy. No complaints here, except the whole "Didn't have to kill him just wipe his memory" thing, but I take that as an integral part of his storyline/character, one of the few I feel they nailed just right. He's willing to go to hell to protect his family...awww, cherish his twisted blackened morality

Mohinder:
[spoiler]I have nice things to say about him...Nope, still stupid smart guy. Love him to bits though, hes so damn adorable! Being all sciency and moronic at the same time...you have heard of a placebo, right, Doctor? Inject water, pretend to have it not work, and say to Bob biological removal of an inherent ability would be homicidal, considering the way some abilities work. If you removed Claires, would it just remove her ability as it is, or all the effects? Ugh. Sliced, diced, burnt Claire, on a plate. Or even just tell Monica to fake it, because the companys not in her best interests. Although the whole subject of video cameras seems to make that a moot point, and things worked out for the best anyways. Bless. [/spoiler]

Hiro:
[spoiler]Oh man, is this going so to how I planned. It's stupid, but it's going how I want it to go. I mean, I knew Takezo turns out to be, you know, petty and mean and a downright scoundrel, caring more about personal gain than being the saviour of the entire future, but hey, this leaves him time to redeem himself or something. Who here would ignore the advice of a man from the future? Hands up? Anyone? No? Didn't think so. Dumbest. Guy. Ever. He already knows hes immortal, and almost impossible to kill to boot (Could always be vaporized. That would kill him) so why not nudge the guy from the future for a few tips in the money department? And Hiro, Hiro, Hiro...Did we already forget about Charlie? Talk about love'em and leave'em. Did it seem abrupt to anyone else that she twigged?[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]I don't believe that West is with The Company. Of course, his "I was abducted" story and the tattoo could just be a cover designed to engender trust among any specials he meets. But, it seems like if he knew that Claire was a special, then he would have checked her out and known who she is and who her father is and then there is no way he would reveal that he has a vendetta against HRG. Why risk that Claire might tell her dad and, even if she didn't, why make it so that she will never let him meet her dad, on whom I am sure The Company would love to keep tabs? If he worked for The Company, he wouldn't throw this wall between himself and Claire and, by proxy, between himself and HRG.

I think it's more likely that he doesn't work for The Company and he is going to be legitimately surprised when he finds out that Claire's dad is HRG, possibly leading to some sort of romantic melodrama between West and Claire. I think that's the angle the writers are likely to play. But, either way, I don't see him as being undercover for The Company.

But there is something a little mysterious and a little off about his being a student. But it's probably just because he looks so much older than a high school kid. The comic makes it seem that he's just a kid with a special power who thinks of himself as a loner, not as a secret agent.
[/spoiler]

[bredon7777]

AICN is reporting that due the the looming writers strike, Heroes:Origins is effectivley cancelled :(

[Protomorph]

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[Tomato]

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

Agreed

[The Hitman]

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

Agreed

Seconded.

[kkhohoho]

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

Agreed

Seconded.

Thirded.

[stumpy]

Looks like Protomorph either exceeded the board limit for exclamation points per post or his poor shift key gave out at the end there.  :P

So, um, what the heck is Heroes: Origins?

[Conduit]

Heroes: Origins was a planned spinoff.  Each episode would introduce a person with a power, then chronicle their personal journey.  It would take place apart from the main story, though occasionally there may be references (Kring used the example of a mailman character delivering mail to the Bennet house in an interview).  It was planned to run for 6 episodes after the Season 2 finale.  Kevin Smith was signed on to direct the first episode.

[AncientSpirit]

Not too worried that they may not extend the series with Origins.   They really need to concentrate on getting back to basics with their main story.   My wife and I are both clearly bored with this season so far, just watching by rote.    Couldn't care less about Hiro in the past.  Miss my favorite psycho blonde.  Not thrilled with Claire hooking up with a flying peeping Tom.  (Although I didn't mind her using her powers to get one over on the head cheerleader ... to me that was no worse than Clark going back to the diner at the end of Superman II and beating up on the local bully.)   Still, can't buy Peter not wanting to know everything about himself ... or his Irish girlfriend INSISTING on it, now that it's resulted in her brother's death.   Still can't buy for a moment that our Dr. friend for a second was going to inject the girl with that goo, so there was no drama there for me, no real tension.   And the biggest let down is that they still don't have Nichelle Nichols DO anything.  What a waste.   Equally confusing is the fact that no matter how long Hiro "remains" in the past, why he can't come back to today TODAY ... unless he lived his entire life in the past and died there, which we know didn't happen because we've already seen "future Hiro" in the present on the train.   ARRRGGGGHHHHH!

It's a shame that Heroes wound up on NBC and the 4400 wound up on cable.   4400 stories seem more compelling and would be even better with the NBC budget behind them.

Still, I continue to watch ... out of habit and hope ...  Not sure that would be the case if anything interesting came on opposite it.

[bredon7777]

You miss the point of Origins, AS.  While a spinoff, it wasn't related AT ALL to the main story, and wasn't actually going to air while Heroes was still on- the overall goal was for Heroes to take less breaks (as the two massive breaks it took last year hurt the series), but as a result of less breaks, the season would effectively end sooner. 

Origins was their answer- a 6 episode "mini" focusing on individual heroes not in the main cast to extend the season to where a normal TV show would end; plus the gimmick of allowing the audience to vote- with the winner joining the main cast the following season.   I thought;heck I think it's a fantastic idea and I'm sorry it won't be happening.

As for your other complaints, I believe you're right on (with the exception of Future Hero- that Hiro ceased to exist when the bomb didn't go off.  I also think their going to bring Hiro back to the main characters present and just use the "well, he doesn't have good control over his powers" excuse to explain why.) but I think the show is beginning to turn itself around and rise back to last year's heights, and I'm upset that the writers strike will probably cut that rise short.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I'm pretty sure it was the other way around.  Heroes was still going to take that second break, but Origins would air in it's place.  They are nowhere near ahead enough to run the whole season solid like that without that break.

[stumpy]

On bredon7777's speculation that they are going to return Hiro to the same present the rest of the characters are at, some months after he disappeared to 1671 instead of just after he left, I agree. And I think it's a good idea. 1) I think that simplifies the storyline, since the other approach would tend to invalidate much of the current season's present-day stories. And 2), I find it believable that he doesn't have great control of his time traveling. To think otherwise would be to deny the premise of the entire 1671 arc, since he certainly didn't consciously decide to go there. He seems to have developed better control over stopping time and moving from place to place. But the actual jumping back in time is something I don't think we've seen him master.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

He seemed to be pretty confident about jumping back to the present.  Also, he only ended up in the past when he was forced to jump out with no preparation and concentration.

I am willing to buy, however, that his time jumping is not quite exact, just not that it's that far off.

[JeyNyce]

Has anybody else heard about this:

http://www.heroesrevealed.com/news/heroes-may-end-at-11th-episode/

As you may know, Heroes Season 2 is planned 22-23 episodes long, but first 11 were labeled as "Volume 2″. 11th episode, which will be air on December 3th, planned to be last episode of Volume 2...

Unfortunately, that 11th episode may be last episode of season 2 as well, because of the writer's strike, again!

Our Michael Ausiello just reported :

Heroes' second season may be coming to a close a lot sooner than expected due to the forthcoming apocalypse, also known in some circles as the damn writers' strike.

Sources confirm that the show is going back and shooting an alternate ending to the Dec. 3 episode that, if used, would allow the episode to function as a season finale in the event of a strike. Originally, the episode was only supposed to serve as the conclusion of the current "Generations" arc. Should an 11th-hour agreement be reached and a strike averted (fingers crossed!), the alt ending would likely be scrapped.

In related news, the reality of this whole thing is only now hitting me. And I'm not happy.

[bredon7777]

Well, crap. :(

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Yeah, that is too bad.  This whole writer's strike stinks, and it's over a premise which, I hate to say it, but the writers are clearly in the wrong here. At least for now.

The major issue is money form online distribution--but online distribution is so new that no one's making any money from it anyway.  That will change eventially, then it will be an actual issue, but to be demanding more money for it now. . .

[AncientSpirit]

Cat, it's not just about online distribution -- its about getting paid for DVDs.  And that's a "now" issue.

Writers should get their fair share. 

[bredon7777]

You're both right - the writers are clearly wrong about online distrubition (and I say that AS an aspiring writer) though they should be paid their fair share for DVD's; I think we can all live with the extra whole four cents they desire.

The studios however are wrong for insisting that those two issues are linked.  Were the studios to treat them as seperate issues, from what I've read,  I really think some sort of compromise could be reached rather quickly.

[Talavar]

So the current story arc was always supposed to end in December?  And it's still this padded to stretch it out?  Wow.  Anyway, here's hoping the writer's guild strike is a short one, and that the second storyline of the season gets made.

[Protomorph]

The two parts of the season were intended to have different storylines, one for the first 11 , and the other for the rest.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Cat, it's not just about online distribution -- its about getting paid for DVDs.  And that's a "now" issue.

Writers should get their fair share. 

Not really.  As someone else said, they are being wrongly linked together.  A few reports I have read have said that the production company's are not as adamant about DVDs.  There is an issue, but they're willing to hear what the writers have to say and negotiate on that.

It's online distribution that is the issue that they are not willing to negotiate, saying simply that they aren't making any money to give them.  Which is true.  Give it a few years, and then they ask for money, but for now it's a future moneymaking business, not a present one.

[Mr. Hamrick]

actually, there is some but very limited routes in which money is being made via the online distribution route.  that amount of money is going to increase though in the next few years.  The money that is being made is off places like ITunes where you can buy the movies for download and I believe there are similar sites that allow movies to be rented via download.

[stumpy]

And Amazon has an arrangement where many TV shows available for download on a per episode basis, often before the DVDs are actually released. I haven't tried it, but I noticed when checking out the release date on a DVD set for a show and saw I could buy it a month early at US$1.99 per episode. I haven't tried it because they require use of their player (which may be fine, but I am hesitant about that) and I kind of like the DVD extras. But, whatever further refinements to the concept, it has arrived.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

It has arrived, yes, but is it making money?  The answer is no.  Give it a few years and it will, though.

[Adamence]

As of October 17th, the iTunes store has sold over 100million TV episodes, and at a regular price of 1.99USD each, I find it very hard to believe that studios aren't making money off that.  If television studios were not making money at this point, they would stop making their shows available in this way as it would clearly just be hurting more lucrative methods of getting their shows out there (like DVD sales.)

[OutsiderNo11]

You're both right - the writers are clearly wrong about online distrubition (and I say that AS an aspiring writer) though they should be paid their fair share for DVD's; I think we can all live with the extra whole four cents they desire.

The studios however are wrong for insisting that those two issues are linked.  Were the studios to treat them as seperate issues, from what I've read,  I really think some sort of compromise could be reached rather quickly.

Online distribution is the wave of the future.  It is how I regularly watch the shows I like ever since I stopped paying for cable service in my apartment.  I think the writers have good reason to ask for a piece of that pie.

Still, the whole strike is ridiculous.  In the end, everyone will lose money and people will actually start reading books and becomming pro-active.  I've already read 1 and a half in the past week.  Very dangerous for society if you ask me [end sarcasm].

[Talavar]

The reason I think the writers are unwilling to listen to the "we aren't making money online" statement, is that the same thing happened with home video in the early '80s.  The writers' guild agreed to take a small cut of that pie, because, at the time, it wasn't making much money.  That's why they are currently getting hosed on DVD sales, and it seems to be why they're unwilling to compromise much on what they see as the next big thing.