Ultimates Volume 3 Questions

[Mowgli]

I enjoyed The Ultimates volumes 1 and 2. But volume 3's first issue has me scratching my head. Any help here would be appreciated: (Possible spoilers ahead)












- Why is Haweye dressed like a cross between JSA's Sand and Bullseye?
- Why is Thor sporting arm wraps (ala every generic anime or video game character) and the old school hammer?
- Why is Wasp wearing a mask even though her identity is public knowledge? And her hair turned red-brown?
- Panther (Black Panther I guess) is already a member when the story starts... and nobody cares that he got thrown many blocks away and never came back?
- Venom can actually fight the Ultimates, namely Thor?

I have more questions, but that should do for now. My head is dizzy.  :wacko:

[murs47]

My head is dizzy.  :wacko:

My head's still dizzy. :penguinspin


Joe Mad has a very anime inspired kind of art style. Hopefully that explains all the costume changes to you.
I have no idea how Venom can stand up to Thor. maybe he's just that strong in the Ultimateverse.
I have no idea how Black Panther got there. :blink:

How helpful I am. :P

[Previsionary]

If I remember correctly, ultimates 3 doesnt answer questions right away. The writer plans to answer those questions down the line and not right off the back. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Valkyrie's appearance.  ;)

[crimsonquill]

1. Why is Haweye dressed like a cross between JSA's Sand and Bullseye?
2. Why is Thor sporting arm wraps (ala every generic anime or video game character) and the old school hammer?
3. Why is Wasp wearing a mask even though her identity is public knowledge? And her hair turned red-brown?
4. Panther (Black Panther I guess) is already a member when the story starts... and nobody cares that he got thrown many blocks away and never came back?
5. Venom can actually fight the Ultimates, namely Thor?

Note: The writers have said that Ultimates 3 takes place a year or so after Ultimate Power ends.. and this storyline ties into the upcoming "Ultimatium" event that somehow shows that the 616 Universe and Ultimate Universe are tied to each other and after all of the dimensional traveling that the Fantastic Four and The Ultimates have done is causing them to crumble into each other.

[spoiler]1. Hawkeye has taken on a more "snake-eyes"-esque look because of his death wish after watching his entire family butchered in v2 of the series. The bullseye on his forehead is obviously a nod to the Bulleye character since the Ultimate version of Hawkeye has shown to be deadly with throwing things as well as a dead shot with any ranged weapon as well. I don't mind the new look because it's better then the Matrix inspired outfit that kept changing with each artist.

2. Thor has arm wraps and an old school hammer... well...because of the artist wanting him to be drawn that way. Plus I think certain artists didn't like his "ultimate hammer" for some reason (too big? more hi-tech then Asguardian?). And it might be connected to Thor finally accepting his magicial origin and getting a real Uru Hammer from his father as a reward for finally taking out Loki.  Plus I think it might tie into Ultimate Valkyrie's own gain of power after being powerless for so many past storylines.
 
3. Wasp is quite well known for changing costumes all the time and probably decided to have that particular costume with a mask. Plus I think it also has to do with her new leadership role and having her identity protected since she now needs to appear in full size in public now.

4. Black Panther is just a new addition who probably showed up in the time between v2 and v3. I'm very sure that Hawkeye (who left to find him after the battle) will stumble across him blocks away dealing with having his butt handed to him by Venom within seconds after the start of the battle. A conversion will commence which has Black Panther flashing back to how he was discovered by Nick Fury or SHIELD or whoever and having Hawkeye tell him that being an Ultimate has it's share of lumps and rewards as well.

5. Venom has very much undergone a major power-up (which I'm sure will be revealed many issues down the line) and no longer has the need of a human host (as being nearly chopped in half didn't phase him). The Ultimate Spider-Man writers have stated that Venom and Carnage will return in a early 2008 storyline that deals with what happened just before v3 started.[/spoiler]

- CrimsonQuill

[murs47]

Note: The writers have said that Ultimates 3 takes place a year or so after Ultimate Power ends.. and this storyline ties into the upcoming "Ultimatium" event that somehow shows that the 616 Universe and Ultimate Universe are tied to each other and after all of the dimensional traveling that the Fantastic Four and The Ultimates have done is causing them to crumble into each other.

Wow! I remember years ago numerous writers and editors including JoeQ stated that they would never cross the two universes. They were fairly adamant about this as well. Go figure. <_<

[Previsionary]

it's JQ...why does that really surprise you? :P ALthough this is the first time I've heard that the ultimate/616 universe were crossing paths beyond non-important cameos.

click <----here's an article you might wanna check out for more info about ultimates 3 and Ultimatum


:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:



After reading the issue, I feel like I can address you better. Hawkeye took on a new costume because of everything he's been through. It was referenced how hawkeye stopped being Clint in the actual issue. If you mean the design alone...ask the artist. Thor, wasp, Wanda, etc. new costumes I'm expecting to be answered down the line. Especially Wanda's considering it looks like her old 616 costume only...more revealing. Black Panther, someone cared about him as he was brought up at least twice. Jan, thor, and valkrie didn't care. Captain wasn't there and he's brooding right now. I'm not sure why you're confused about Venom vs. Thor. It wasn't even really a fight. Venom got him from behind (as referenced by dialog) and we don't really know *what* happened before hand. Afterwards, Thor quickly put him in his place so it's not like Venom owned him or anything.

Also, iirc, ultimate venom is stronger than 616 venom, but I wouldn't rule out that venom may have been powered up a bit in this arc. We'll see, no?

[thanoson]

Ok, how come nobody is bringing up the two things that almost offended even me;
1. The obvious sex between Black Widow and Tony all over the tv screens. I mean, imagination was not needed at all to understand what they were doing.
2. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were IN love. Not love each other like a normal brother and sister. In love with each other in the bad way. Eww...

[Previsionary]

Thanoson,

Ultimates is more teenage/adult oriented than a typical comic. That's kinda what they were shooting for. It shocked me that they got away with that much, but it's not something I focused on either.

Wanda and Quicksilver isn't a surprise since that's how they *always* been. Since their early appearances in Xmen to all of the ultimate arcs, so that shouldn't really surprise you either. The only time Wanda cared about someone else (cyclops), quicksilver instantly took on the jealous role. SO basically, all Loeb did was make it *more* apparent than it already apparently was.

[Talavar]

I read a description of Ultimates 3 as coming off like Ultimate Ultimates, and I think that's pretty spot on.  Colour me unimpressed, at least with that first issue.

[murs47]

it's JQ...why does that really surprise you?

It really does though. It was said that it would defeat the purpose of the ultimate line which is intended for newer readers without all the continuity baggage(but there is plenty now.) I think a few Marvel heads simplified their opinions on a crossover into a few simple words like: stupid, idiotic, moronic. There were a few more choice words and phrases but I won't place them here.

I could really care less, just as long as they leave ultimate spidey alone.

About the Wanda/Pietro and Tony/Widow tape, I really think this is Loeb trying to match and beat what Miller did on the other two Ultimate runs because it felt a bit forced or just way too extreme. Miller did have some extreme moments in his run as well but I felt they were more subtle to the story and not the actual story. Like when the Hulk expresses how he wants to reproduce with Betty while rampaging in New York. Or, when Black Widow explains how her new surgically "enhanced" chest is itching.

Despite this books flaws, it is interesting, and I'll be sticking with it. ^_^

[Previsionary]

I agree that it'd defeat the purpose, but I can't flip out on a rumor that I haven't seen anywhere else yet...so...I'll form thoughts about ultimates/616 slowly merging later. Though, it would conveniently explain away some writers' errors in certain books that happen to be very close to 616.

Also, I never understood the continuity thing. Anything that has more than one book will have a continuity baggage for new readers, so that was never a realistic goal, imo. It got even worse when they started doing those team up books and crossovers. I think their original goal was to toss out the continuity of the original universe, but they never had a plan for all the continuity problems that would pop up for the mainline ultimate universe, though, a good "this is what happened so far..." book would aid with that.

[AfghanAnt]

U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe.

[UnfluffyBunny]

I wanna know why Cap's now being played by a max sized tanker from COH o_O

[zuludelta]

I agree that it'd defeat the purpose, but I can't flip out on a rumor that I haven't seen anywhere else yet...so...I'll form thoughts about ultimates/616 slowly merging later. Though, it would conveniently explain away some writers' errors in certain books that happen to be very close to 616.

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that they'll be re-tooling the Ultimate universe soon (either by dissolving it entirely or contracting the line and making it more of a niche product-- more minis and less on-goings maybe?). Six years ago, the idea of the Ultimate Marvel Universe was a great way to revive interest in the then-flagging fortunes of many of the 616 characters (I was never interested in the Avengers, not even when one of my favourite writers, Larry Hama, took over the book in the late 1980s/early 1990s and the Ultimates was the first incarnation of the Avengers that I actually liked). Now that the 616 universe is back in the forefront of readers' and marketers' minds and are more profitable than they were a few years ago, the Ultimate imprint only serves to dilute the properties.

[the_ultimate_evil]

the art was interesting but the colouring really let it down and made a lot of pages hard to look at.

i knew it was always joked that old wanda and petrio were a bit fmessed up but it was still a serious what the hell moment

about the death

[SPOILER] i'm betting on the whole magneto angle, seems to be the most logical.

though it still may be a bit more of a inside job.


what i'm surprised about is no one hasnt mentioned it yet. the doc at the end if thats not thor its a hell of a red herring[/SPOILER]

[thanoson]

I did notice that. I'm thinking Wanda did something. Notice she was casting something in the background.

[Mowgli]

U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe.

And there it is. Thanks for putting that into words. It REALLY did not feel like the Ultimates from the past two volumes. I guess that's why there are so many questions.

Previsionary: Of course I'm confused about Thor vs. Venom.... in the regulr Marvel universe, if Venom hit Thor from behind, Thor wouldn't budge. Thor would then hit Venom once... fight over. This Venome knocked Thor through a wall and knocked Thor out of the fight for more than a page. Powered up indeed.

- Hawkeye's new look is just... bad. Bullseye's costume combined with Sand's... eh.

- Wasp's costume to protect her identity... isn't her identity public? I mean, she has run around in public for volumes one and two with no mask using her powers.

- Thor's hammer? Couldn't we at least maintain one difference between Thor and Ultimate Thor?

- Caring about Black Panther? Yeah, they mentioned it, and that's about it. Wasn't that conversation about the fight on the next day? "I'll go look for him" a day later doesn't show a lot of concern.

It just doesn't feel like the Ultimates anymore. And I REALLY want to like tyhis book because I enjoyed the other two volumes. The question that I keep returning to is, "Did Loeb read the first two volumes?"

[Previsionary]

Part of the problem may just be that the book started with a bunch of questions rather than answers...and Loeb's writing style. I dunno, you should at least give it a book or 2 to *attempt* to explain that stuff to  you before taking a definite stance.

Previsionary: Of course I'm confused about Thor vs. Venom.... in the regulr Marvel universe, if Venom hit Thor from behind, Thor wouldn't budge. Thor would then hit Venom once... fight over. This Venome knocked Thor through a wall and knocked Thor out of the fight for more than a page. Powered up indeed.

Um...we're in the ultimate universe where something like Venom beating up thor in an event we did not see at all shouldn't be all that questioned unless it was revealed later on down the line to be extremely stupid. Ultimate venom is much stronger than 616 venom so you probably shouldnt be comparing them to begin with. That's one of the problems with the ultimate universe now so a few changes here and there is good for them. This is the same venom than can toss cars with very little effort, jump as high as hulk, and swing around town using his tendrils (see ultimate spider-man game which was in continuity at one point).

Point being, I'm sure we've all seen thor beaten/thrown about by worse than venom WHILE he was on guard, so I really dont think that it's all that hard to believe that, within the right circumstances [momentum, element of surprise, etc.], venom knocked thor through a simple brick wall. Now if it was say...a steel or adamantium wall, I would question it more. Also, iirc, thor wasn't even hurt by it so...yeah.

[crimsonquill]

- Caring about Black Panther? Yeah, they mentioned it, and that's about it. Wasn't that conversation about the fight on the next day? "I'll go look for him" a day later doesn't show a lot of concern.

Before the battle there is a banner that says "Tony Stark's Mansion, Last night..." and while Venom is melting into a pile of smoking goo after being stuck by Thor's lightning strike - Hawkeye takes a few shots at the goo with his gun and gets into a fight with Wasp where he ends the discussion with "@#$%, I'm Going To See If I Can Find The Panther". That whole thing takes place within just 5 minutes time and the next page has a banner that says "Today" where Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver runs into Capt. outside their apartment.

Maybe it's the artist that made the story hard to follow... *scratches head*

- CrimsonQuill

[Mowgli]

Previsionary: I guess I just assumed since the writing is trying so hard to make Thor so much like his regular Marvel universe alter-ego, they would do the same with Venom. I haven't read any Ultimate Spider-Man, so I wouldn't know if he had been powered up. BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.

CrimsonQuill; I checked and you are right. I guess it was the stortytelling, but it was after the fight when Hawkeye said he would go look. I wish they would stop with the heavy digital painting over Madueria's work. He can draw just fine without all of that. I think all the darker tones may not be helping his work.

[Previsionary]

I refer to it as 616 because that's the earth number that was given to the main universe since the early 80s (by the UK branch). It also appears in one of those guide books marvel regularly releases as well as a few eXiles comics (reality time hoppers). That and I see it so much on message boards (here included before the board wipe) that I subconsciously do it from time to time. *shrugs*

[captainspud]

Wow.

I'm giving it one more issue to stop being a 616 comic before I stop buying it.

[captainspud]

BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.

It popped up in Marvel UK's Captain Britain comics. There's a whole corps of Captain Britains in various realities, and they keep track of who's who by numbering the dimensions they come from. Ours is Earth 616 (making him Captain Britain 616), and that's the only descriptive we've ever gotten (apart from "the main universe"), so it's the one the fanboys use.

[Podmark]

BTW- why are you referring to the regular Marvel universe as 616? I don't recognize that term.

It popped up in Marvel UK's Captain Britain comics. There's a whole corps of Captain Britains in various realities, and they keep track of who's who by numbering the dimensions they come from. Ours is Earth 616 (making him Captain Britain 616), and that's the only descriptive we've ever gotten (apart from "the main universe"), so it's the one the fanboys use.

The 616 was chosen based off some date. But I'd have  to look it up to give specifics. If you've ever read Exiles or one of the handouts they started giving all the other universes numbers too and they're based on the same date format as well.

[Renegade]

Wasn't 616 an in-joke referring to Marvel's old address number?

And Ultimates 3 has been pretty lousy so far. More than that really as it's changed some characters for the worse, which is a crime more tragic than just telling a bad story (or a story badly).

[zuludelta]

Wasn't 616 an in-joke referring to Marvel's old address number?

That's ultimately (ha ha!) where the number came from according to some people, although David Thorpe, Alan Davis, and Alan Moore (the Marvel UK guys generally credited with coining the term) insist that it was just a random number with no real significance.

And Ultimates 3 has been pretty lousy so far. More than that really as it's changed some characters for the worse, which is a crime more tragic than just telling a bad story (or a story badly).

I think how bad the writing is in the first two issues is magnified by how conventional it all seems when compared the scope and writing of the first Ultimates mini-series. By itself, it reads like a standard superhero tale, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that, but when you consider how different Ultimates is supposed to be from your standard Marvel superheroics, it does seem like Loeb's starting off on the wrong foot (although the argument can be made that the end of Ultimates 2 basically forced this type of change in the approach).

[Mowgli]

Well, in my opinion, issue #2 was more of the same that we got in #1. It's incoherent, not really answering any of the questions that it has brought up. Plot's pretty similar to #1 as well.

-Group in mansion- they get attacked- they fight the invader(s)- Tony's drunk- Tho's hanging out with some unexplained fan girl with asgardian powers- Cap's ticked about... something- Hawkeye acts like a jerk.

I didn't give a spoiler alert there because it's a summary that fits #1 and #2. Now the next section may have spoilers for issue #2.



-On a different note from the first issue, Hawkeye does run around looking for Black Panther and decides to arbitrarily start shooting at Spider-Man, because the Ultimates were attacked by Venom??!!?? Bwu-huh?

-Thor explains that he was just "pretending" to speak with normal grammar and actually speaks in Shakespearian verse. Um, so was he pretending when he spoke to Volstagg in the club? Was Volstagg also prentending to do the same when he spoke back? Was Loki also pretending, before and after he was defeated?

-Thor's hammer is now drawn just like the 616 hammer- and it seems Tony has donned the 1980's armor again... what's ultimate about them again?

I'm not writing off the book just yet. Perhaps there will be some miraculous bit of writing coming soon that will explain everything and make the writer's choices make more sense. But for now.... I'm just disppointed.

I really liked the Ultimates. Afghan Ant said it best: "U3 didn't feel like the same characters I came to love, in fact this felt more like the Marvel Mangaverse than the Ultimate Universe."

Yeah, pretty much.

[Previsionary]

I can't really say anything positive about issue 2, dialogue/plot wise, since it gave me headaches. I don't really see anything getting much better and this worries me for the ultimate verse since Loeb is taking over 2 of the core books to tie it into ultimatum. I'll direct you all to Ultimate Power and how...blah it was as my source as to why I don't want Loeb doing another event for a universe that's already crumbling fast.

[Podmark]

Wow the more I hear about this the less I like it.

Although I do like Mad's art from previews. Some cool designs, though not necessarily the right direction for Ultimates.

[Talavar]

I've written this one off.  Loeb's writing rarely works for me, and this is just a mess.  It doesn't make a lick of sense or seem to flow out of the other Ultimates series, so I'm done.