Ultimates Volume 3 Questions

murs47 · January 26, 2008, 05:43:49 PM

Quote from: Talavar on January 26, 2008, 11:06:03 AM
I've written this one off. Loeb's writing rarely works for me, and this is just a mess. It doesn't make a lick of sense or seem to flow out of the other Ultimates series, so I'm done.

I'm with you. I knew it wasn't going to be as great as the previous two volumes, but I wasn't expecting it to be bad either.

crimsonquill · January 26, 2008, 07:04:06 PM

You would figure that maybe Ultimatium somehow tied into both the 616 and Ultimate worlds being connected together... but having the start of Volume 3 literally revamping heroes into their 616 counterpart without explanation (especially Iron Man and Thor) makes the first time reader wonder if he picked up a miscovered comic. And I'm getting more confused with each issue because the writer is now contradicting what the first two volumes already established (not to mension totally stereotyping the characters).

And why would Spider-Man be responsible for Venom attacking someone else?!.. It's not like Webhead has him on a leash or anything.

Quote from: Mowgli on January 25, 2008, 12:50:02 PM
Thor's hanging out with some unexplained fan girl with asgardian powers

Actually, That's Valkyrie of The Defenders that showed up briefly in a cameo or two when Hank Pym was kicked off The Ultimates. She was just a blonde slut in a revealing outfit that was a huge fan of Thor. I'm assuming that somewhere in between Volume Two and Three that Thor had met her and taken her on a date to Asgard to find her new sword so that she can hang with him and not be totally out of her league.

- CrimsonQuill

Previsionary · February 12, 2008, 11:20:10 PM

If any of you are feeling brave to see previews of ultimates 3 #3 before it hits shelves...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12970 -- read your poison.

herodad1 · February 13, 2008, 10:09:41 AM

what gets me is venom throws black panther 10 blocks and nobody but hawkeye cares.i sure miss the george perez/ kurt busiek avengers days.they captured the spirit of the avengers.

AfghanAnt · February 13, 2008, 10:48:46 AM

Quote from: herodad1 on February 13, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
what gets me is venom throws black panther 10 blocks and nobody but hawkeye cares.i sure miss the george perez/ kurt busiek avengers days.they captured the spirit of the avengers.

To be fair to Loeb, the Ultimates aren't the Avengers despite his inability to see that. Loeb set them up vol 3 as if it was the Avengers which disappointed Ultimates fans and forced a bunch of anime/manga designs and throw in a bunch of sort of obscene things to remind us "oh yeah this is Ultimates because Hank overdosed, Janet has bulimia, and Cap is an @$$".

I hate you Loeb. I hate you and your Ultimate Manga Avengers!

captainspud · February 13, 2008, 01:19:17 PM

What's most disappointing to me, even beyond the fact that my favourite series-of-series is now ruined, is that this is what Joe Mad's grand comeback amounted to.

I've been a huge Joe Mad fan since, basically, forever. The first comic I bought for myself from an issue of UXM during the Onslaught crossover, and it was just fantastic. I'd been drawing all my life, but I'd been doing mostly generic monsters up to that point (I was like... what... 10? 12?). Joe Mad's art is what single-handedly made me a comic lover; he's the reason I haven't drawn anything but superheroes for like a decade and a half. I learned to draw human beings by tracing UXM on a lightbox. Granted, super-distorted-anime isn't exactly the best starting point for an artist, but hey. I liked it.

My man-crush continued when he jumped to his own book. Battle Chasers was just a derivative stack of clichés, but it didn't matter. He drew those clichés in a way that I liked. The comic was terrible, but I loved it anyway. And then... yeah. The delays. First there was a one-month gap. Then a three-month gap. The time between the sixth and seventh issues? Fourteen months.

And what were the delays for? Wizard informed me, during a tour of his studio, that the delays were because Joe had recently acquired a Playstation, and was busy playing Final Fantasy 7. I was heartbroken. I was like 14 years old, and I just didn't understand. I thought when people grew up and had real jobs, they stopped farting around with video games to the extent that they had no time to work for over a year. I mean, sure. I did that, but I was 14! Joe was a grown-up, he's supposed to know better.

And with that, I just kinda stopped caring. He didn't care about us, so why care about him? I went on with my life; I guess he ran out of money at some point, cuz apparently he worked on designs for three games that never actually got made. He tossed together some EGM covers every once in a while. That's about it.

I still like Joe Mad's art, but I'd lost most of my respect for the man holding the pencil. When I heard he was coming back and doing Ultimates 3, I was genuinely hopeful. As before, I was willing to completely ignore the total mismatch between his style and the Ultimates universe; I just wanted to see more of his drawings.

And then... I dunno. I'm just not seeing it. This is the guy who gave us all those fantastic AoA costumes, and the best he can do is 616 transfers and a comically bad Hawkeye outfit? And what's with the lack of inks? The style that's emerged where the penciller shades the drawing and the colours are laid on top actually has a fairly specific purpose-- it's supposed to increase the realism of an already realistic drawing style. And I don't think anybody's ever accused Joe Mad of drawing realistically.

I was hoping that perhaps he'd grown up a bit and was ready to take on the (comparatively) more serious Ultimates line, but everything I've seen tells me that he's still got the same maturity level I questioned when I was 14. He wants to go inkless because it's a fad; and his costume designs show that he fundamentally does not understand the Ultimates universe.

So, yeah. I think I'm done with Joe Mad. He was fun when I was 10, and I was totally ready to give him a second shot, but I think I've basically just outgrown him. He's still mentally in same place as he was a decade ago. He's one of the most talented artists I've ever seen, but his lack of maturity is showing up in his work.

Sigh... I feel like I need a drink.

And I don't drink.

:(

Talavar · February 13, 2008, 04:22:12 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on February 13, 2008, 10:48:46 AM
I hate you Loeb. I hate you and your Ultimate Manga Avengers!

Heh, awesome. I second the sentiment!

detourne_me · February 14, 2008, 09:37:37 AM

Quote from: Previsionary on February 12, 2008, 11:20:10 PM
If any of you are feeling brave to see previews of ultimates 3 #3 before it hits shelves...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12970 -- read your poison.

i hate you prev. i read every page of that preview. gawdf its awful, i just kept reading to see how low it could go. i think wolvewrines last line was the lowest point......

Previsionary · February 14, 2008, 09:41:18 AM

it's not my fault marvel hired loeb and loeb keeps writing bad characters! From what I saw around certain message boards, people think Loeb wrote ultimate wolverine correctly. I don't happen to agree, but...*shrugs*.

Sidenote, does Hawkeye have 2 or 3 kids? I want to say wolvie's line is an error.

detourne_me · February 14, 2008, 09:53:45 AM

it is an error, he had 3 kids.

now what i don't get is that i used to LOVE Loeb's work, i think his Batman GN's are on par with Year one (Long hallowe'en in particular) and didn't he write Daredevil:Yellow too? that one was great as well.

zuludelta · February 14, 2008, 01:50:58 PM

Quote from: captainspud on February 13, 2008, 01:19:17 PMWhat's most disappointing to me, even beyond the fact that my favourite series-of-series is now ruined, is that this is what Joe Mad's grand comeback amounted to...

<snip!>

... I was hoping that perhaps he'd grown up a bit and was ready to take on the (comparatively) more serious Ultimates line, but everything I've seen tells me that he's still got the same maturity level I questioned when I was 14...

<snip!>

... So, yeah. I think I'm done with Joe Mad. He was fun when I was 10, and I was totally ready to give him a second shot, but I think I've basically just outgrown him. He's still mentally in same place as he was a decade ago.

This really sums up how I feel about many of the "hot" artists I used to idolize when I was a kid. I was all over Jim Lee, Whilce Portacio, and Marc Silverstri (the original Homage Studios pencilers) back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. But the thing that I noticed was, they never seemed to significantly improve their craft as time went on. Sure, they render more detail and don't flub basic anatomy as much these days, but the fundamental weaknesses of their panel-to-panel work is still there.

Take a cover from Lee's 1990s WildCATs comics and put it side-by-side with a random page from the recent failed re-launch that was WildCATs #1 from a couple of years ago... they could have been drawn within a couple of weeks of each other.

Compare that with say, former WildCATs penciler Travis Charest, whose clumsy and derivative early work looks nothing like the stuff he's doing now.

Even Brandon Peterson, one of the weakest artists to follow-up Portacio's run on Uncanny X-Men (as evidenced by this decidedly plain-looking cover from 1992) has grown so much artistically in the decade-and-a-half since (check out his work on Chimera. By way of contrast, Portacio, Silvestri, and Lee's development as comic book artists seems to have ground to a halt. I still like their early work and what it represented in terms of a paradigm shift in comic book art, but I just don't derive any measure of awe or enjoyment from the stuff they do now.

I noticed the same thing happening with Joe Madureira. I read Ultimates 3 #1 and what really stood out to me, besides the mediocre writing, was that Mad still drew as if he was stuck in a 1990s time-warp. I still like his exaggerated, off-model take on the human form, but there were a lot of flashy, offset panels with no storytelling logic (violating fundamental principles of sequential storytelling). Those were excellent back then, and I'm sure they still hold a certain naive charm for most of us who enjoyed the comics of that era, but outside of that context, it was just one terribly-laid out comic book that could have used a more professional layout/storyboard artist.

detourne_me · February 14, 2008, 07:16:47 PM

Quote from: zuludelta on February 14, 2008, 01:50:58 PM
I still like their early work and what it represented in terms of a paradigm shift in comic book art, but I just don't derive any measure of awe or enjoyment from the stuff they do now.

hear hear! however guys still going from the 70's and 80's like chaykin, JR JR and the kubert brothers have constantly been getting better.

Previsionary · February 20, 2008, 07:23:21 PM

Well...I read a summary and some reviews of ultimates 3 (one thing this book has going for it...it comes out more regularly than the other two volumes) and...

[spoiler]more pietro/wanda/magneto/wolverine backstory and the team finally does something other than stand around.[/spoiler]

Black panther seems to have finally landed and is actually on a team. Wolverine seems to know who he is or w/e. Um...Savage land origins are revealed and it's kinda lame (only because it reminds me of why I don't like certain characters)...and...that's about it. Oh...Tony's odd behavior is finally addressed...

captainspud · February 21, 2008, 01:01:01 PM

I walked into the comic store yesterday to pick up my books. My eyes vaguely pass by Ultimates 3 when I'm reaching for Umbrella Academy. I ask the owner while flipping through UA, "So, did Ultimates 3 get any better?"

"Take a look, and you tell me."

I reach for it, and my hand stops.

"There's... there's a dinosaur on the cover."

:blink:

"I guess that does kinda answer my question."

Previsionary · February 21, 2008, 01:03:16 PM

Yep...savage land origins were told in ultimates instead of ultimate x-men...for some reason. I don't think the main plot has even been clearly defined yet as the subplots seem more interesting and get more play.

murs47 · February 21, 2008, 02:10:53 PM

Well, I decided to pick it up. What a colorful "love" scene that's depicted between Wolverine and [spoiler]Magneto's wife[/spoiler]

I kind of liked Barton telling Janet and Cap to go (expletive) themselves. I snickered. ^_^
Everything else was garbage, I'm not even remotely interested on where Wolverine knows Black Panther from, as he hinted at it.

One cool thing was the last page. It's just a really nice piece of art. Other then that, this book is just over-priced toilet paper.

Matt Fraction or Ed Brubaker would have been a better choice for Ultimates 3. Maybe Marvel will keep them in mind for volume 4.

Podmark · February 21, 2008, 02:26:47 PM

Quote from: murs47 on February 21, 2008, 02:10:53 PM
Matt Fraction or Ed Brubaker would have been a better choice for Ultimates 3. Maybe Marvel will keep them in mind for volume 4.

Actually the original plan for volume 4 was Loeb writing with Ed McGuiness on art. I'm pretty sure this plan was ditched for Ultimatum.

AfghanAnt · February 26, 2008, 01:20:53 PM

Just saw Ultimates 3.3 and needless to say I'm only reading it now to punish myself. This issue was probably the most insulting story wise and the most offensive character assassination I've ever read.

captainspud · February 26, 2008, 01:39:11 PM

So... think they'll let the series continue to the end? This can't be selling well.

Previsionary · February 26, 2008, 01:47:42 PM

There are people that actually like this (even when compared to volumes 1 and 2) and, iirc, it's been said to be selling in the top 10 (#1 even?) everytime it was released...

captainspud · February 26, 2008, 01:50:37 PM

That is disgusting.

Talavar · February 26, 2008, 03:21:16 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on February 26, 2008, 01:20:53 PM
Just saw Ultimates 3.3 and needless to say I'm only reading it now to punish myself. This issue was probably the most insulting story wise and the most offensive character assassination I've ever read.

See, now I almost want to read it just to see how bad it is. Almost.

Mowgli · February 26, 2008, 03:27:28 PM

Quote from: Previsionary on February 26, 2008, 01:47:42 PM
There are people that actually like this (even when compared to volumes 1 and 2) and, iirc, it's been said to be selling in the top 10 (#1 even?) everytime it was released...

People read Rob Liefield's Youngblood too.

Volume 1 and 2 were so good.... why does this one have to suck so bad?

Jakew · February 26, 2008, 04:39:50 PM

I just read through the first few issues .... poor on every level. Even the art is hamstrung by average costume/character designs.

It has a weird, deliberate badness akin to All-Star Batman & Robin.

the_ultimate_evil · February 27, 2008, 02:27:15 AM

there are elements of this book that are holding my interest, not many mind you. the best way i can describe the book is a car accident, you dont want to stare but you can't look away

Previsionary · June 25, 2008, 10:53:29 PM

I know mowgli or someone usually bumps this book, but reading some reviews and...issue 5 will have A LOT to tie up and make sense of...A LOT is not even a big enough word for what Loeb will have to explain. I'll point out a few problems I had just from the reviews alone:

:spoiler: :spoiler:

1. Um, Juggernaut is on the brotherhood? Loeb, dude's at most dead and at least missing from action since the rogue/gambit adventure.

2. ROBOTS?! REALLY?! WTEFF!

3. So, you gonna get back to QS and SW anytime soon and I'm just gonna ignore Hank and Janet for now

4. Pyro...brotherhood? Loeb, do you know he's currently on the x-men and getting along with everyone? You know he's not evil and a potential rapist (according to reviews), right? He's a good guy...literally...a good guy.

5. So...Thor changed hammers on a whim?

6. Maybe I'm forgetting something or whatever, but why are you shoving Savage land history and characters into an avengers-lite book?

7 *explodes*

Now, I eagerly await any actual feedback on this issue until I browse it somewhere since I refuse to buy it at this point. I now know for sure I won't invest in yet another Loeb 'color' book even if it is Cap related.

Previsionary · September 24, 2008, 09:36:15 PM

Gonna bump this to see if anyone bought it, have any thoughts, or threatened loeb yet. I'll say the art finally looked brighter.

What basically happened:

[spoiler]-Some members of the ultimates are found out to be robots created by Hank Pym. Wanda was attracted to one and it was attracted back (ultimates 2).
-tony's sex tape was leaked by the robots because they knew tony would go to alcohol (to keep him from noticing the robots).
-Venom robot was created to kidnap Wanda to save her from whatever was to come. Because of a technical difficulty, Venom melted when he was defeated.
-the robots drugged Hank
-the robot that fell in love with Wanda shot her because he knew he would never have her
-Wanda was killed to incite the Human/Mutant war (Ultimatum)
-Captain America is Panther to NO ONES surprise (readers...not the characters)
-Pyro is still an evil rapist for some reason...continuity isn't loeb's strong point this year. Heroes...watch out.
-Valkryie got her powers from Thor because of some unknown deal. She then kills one of her attempted rapists and cuts off pyro's hands...
-Hulk-esque Thor vs. Magneto...it's blah
-after the messy, not very clear battle, Hawkeye goes super emo and tries to shoot Magneto. Quicksilver is shot and killed.
-Magneto is upset and vows to make everyone pay
-it's revealed dr. doom is behind ultron and the other robots.[/spoiler]

Seriously, this book was all over the place. ALL. OVER. THE. PLACE. Loeb finally got to explaining what was going on...4 issues ago...8 months ago...but he ripped apart continuity to do it and his writing was beyond subpar. I don't feel like anything was actually resolved here except the questions raised in issue 1...then he twists the plot at the end. Wow. Well...hopefully the ultimate verse will be restructured after this...and i get to look forward to more continuity holes and pointless deaths.

Podmark · September 24, 2008, 09:54:14 PM

Wow that sounds horrible. Simply horrible. I think Loeb single handily ruined the Ultimate universe.

So is Hank dead or what? Actually whats the total bodycount going into Ultimatum?

Luckily we'll be getting Ultimate Avengers by Miller, and if it's anything like Ultimates volume 1 and 2 then it'll be awesome.

Previsionary · September 24, 2008, 10:02:07 PM

No...Hank survived. He was instrumental in saving tony, Janet, and the ultimates in general...in Ant man gear. Um...since i dont remember all the issues and I only read...2? 3? Somewhere around 4-5.

Wanda, Quicksilver, some rapist mutant, possibly Pyro (though he's an X-man...), bunch of robots, Hawkeye shot Sabretooth A LOT...don't know his outcome.

So yeah...Venom being able to take out Thor, Venom melting, Thor's speech (kinda), his hammer (kinda), BP mystery, sex tape, tony's alcoholism/OOC behavior, the plot...all came from this single issue....all in a rush. Issues 2-4 basically weren't needed, imo. :P

crimsonquill · September 25, 2008, 01:05:58 AM

Yeah, I caught the final issue myself and still making this face :blink: after reading it like 5 times thus far... and then going :banghead: after rereading all five issues. I so believe that Miller is begging to come back after Ultimatium finishes wreaking the Ultimate Universe so he can help rebuild that world and remind the editors what their job is before starting Ultimate Avengers.

And I also noticed one major nitpick not already talked about that made me go.. WTF?!...

[spoiler]Magneto catches (he is actually holding it in a panel) Thor's classic hammer which is technically Odin enchanted like the 616 version (but it's not even made of metal which would explain how he could stop it from hitting him) and then Thor is forced by Valkyre to retreat and leave it behind but she promises they will come back for it later. Wha?!?! I'm already confused about Thor looking like the 616 version already but having robo-Thor show up looking like his old Ultimate self and then still not explaining what happened between vol 2 and 3 with him besides dating Valkyre and giving her powers.[/spoiler]