why can't spider-man be happy?

[bearded]

this is in reply to the talk in the 'spider-man one more day' post.  i like the marriage with mary jane.  and i'll tell you why.
how many of you, reading this, had a rough high school experience?  much like parker.  go ahead, raise your hand, no one is looking. i know i did.  there was a period i brought dnd books to school.  'nuff said on that.  but, now.  now, how many of you are married to your mary jane?  i don't mean a lingirie model, i mean your own sweet happy mary jane.  that's where a lot of us are, in life, right now. happily marred, with children, maybe even high school kids.  do they take dnd books to school? 
mary jane is parkers happy ending.  and that's not good, for the stories, right?  so, what should the writers do.  they should do the next generation!  and some did, and it worked,  ppl bought spidergirl out of cancellation at least once.  readers, and writers like the idea of the next generation. 
why won't the companies allow the next generation?  real question.  any ideas?
dc is so old that it has 'fake' next generation.  nightwing, teen titans, outsiders, etc.  but batman is still the same age.

[lugaru]

The problem with Mary Jane is that nobody knows how to write her. Most comic book writers are hapily married to somebody who completes them and supports their odd career choice... but instead of drawing on this for inspiration they draw a blank looking for comic book examples of succesful marriages. That's my main problem with comic writers, they produce comics fed by comics, ending up with results similar to mad cows disease.

This is a shame, some of my favorite spidey moments are those he shared with his wife. I guess that's why you guy's havent seen me talking about 'one more day', the idea just dosent work for me and I'm waiting for it to end.

[HumanTon]

Most comic book writers are hapily married to somebody who completes them and supports their odd career choice... but instead of drawing on this for inspiration they draw a blank looking for comic book examples of succesful marriages. That's my main problem with comic writers, they produce comics fed by comics, ending up with results similar to mad cows disease.

Very true, and very sad. At least Mary Jane didn't end up like poor Sue Dibny (yet.)

[Previsionary]

As zulu has expressed (and honestly, I think this discussion could've stayed in that thread, but that's just my OP[inion]), and Joe Q on several occasions, comic writers (or more accurately, editors) are trying to keep spidey accessible to the next/younger generation. That generation doesn't seem to really include most of us for one reason or another. Joe has stated time and time again his reasoning for undoing the marriage, so you can either accept them or not. I don't, but I can't do anything about it other than avoiding the book and keeping up with ultimate spidey or some 'marvel adventure' adventures until the story unravels. Though, it worries me that a man in his 40s would say that a marriage "ages" Peter. That doesn't seem to be much of a complaint with Superman and he's been married considerably less time than Spidey. His other excuse of 'marriage limits story possibilities' doesn't work either since they've been coming up with stories (for better or worse) for spidey and MJ for over 20 years...so...yeah.

My point being, a good writer shouldn't be limited by a marriage. If anything, marriage opens up a new set of possibilities for a writer to draw inspiration on. Drawing in new readers is important; but is it important enough to completely alienate a majority of your existing audience? On the other hand, this just means those other spidey books might get more attention. I'll just stick with my X-men: First class. (Plug plug)

[Talavar]

Companies won't go with the next generation of heroes because those heroes aren't just characters, they're a brand.  Superman, Batman, Spider-man: they all sell merchandise, and a lot of it.  To replace Spider-man with his child or successor completely in the comics - even though that doesn't really effect movies, cartoons, games, etc. that could still feature the original - could have a negative impact on the financial worth of the character.  Because of business concerns, we're really unlikely to ever see that type of story-telling done with company-owned characters.  Spider-girl can exist - but in a possible future storyline, and Nightwing will always be second-fiddle to Batman.

I also liked Peter Parker married, & I really hate how the dissolution of the marriage is being handled, but to an extent I can see what Quesada is getting at.  Most mainstream comic characters have become basically timeless -they're always the same age and it does make Peter seem like an older character if he's married and a teacher.  The "timeless" version of Spider-man is as pretty young guy - I'm surprised this reboot hasn't put him back in university, if not high school.  Again, this isn't to say I like the decisions, but I see why they've been made.  This isn't an issue for Superman, to use that comparison, because the "timeless" version of the character has always been more adult.  For him to be married to Lois doesn't alter the core vision of who Superman is.

To answer the main thread title, why can't Spider-man be happy?  Because his story has generally been motivated by angst and guilt, and he can only really get a happy ending if the story ends - and given the nature of comics at the Big 2, it never will.

[Previsionary]

I agree with some of your points, Talavar, but Spider-man has SEVERAL books to please those people who want fun, down on his luck, marriage-less spider-man (Spidey loves MJ, marvel adventures spidey, Ultimate Spidey*). So, I saw no major problem with peter being married if he's been married for so very long. Being in a relationship at all 'ages' a person, so I just don't see that as a viable excuse to get rid of a marriage. Besides that, if they go through the effort to make all these books aimed at different demographics, then I think they should be effectively used instead of adding radical changes into the core books. The fact that gwen can just come waddling in is also damaging in my opinion since it hurts a really important story in spidey's history...

*gets a visual of Peter being surrounded by MJ, Felicia, Betty, Gwen, and whoever he may be going after this year*

...Anyway, there's no point in arguing about continuity since the marvel writers have said they won't be addressing anything that was "erased" most, or any, of next year. So yay? Also, right now, we don't know what age/time peter has returned to except that he lives with aunt may again.

But yes, Peter will never be happy long. No comic or any character in the media is happy too long and even during their finales, some protagonists don't end off happily.


*- Ultimate spidey is probably the best spidey book currently and it's basically what Joey wanted with mainstream spidey...without all the history. Unmarried, teenaged, guilt-ridden, down-on-his-luck, Peter Parker.

EDIT: some details about peter's new setup: web clickity

[bearded]

i started a new thread, cause basically it's a new topic, or question to consider.  what i meant by the topic question was more obscure than i intended.  i consider the spider girl series to be peter parker's happy ending.  she continues the drama and heritage.
good answer given i think.  spider-man is a brand.  as well as other characters.  maggie simpson is doomed to be an infant forever.
i really liked the idea behind new universe, in that real time passes.  maybe that was a creator driven idea, in response to the same delimma my question poses.
i just remembered an old issue of supergirl.  on the letters page, a reader had asked why supergirl appeared younger than her last series.  (this must have been a 70's issue.  i think.)  the editor replied that he thought it was due to the market responding better to a younger supergirl.  i got the impression the letter writer was asking about continuity, and in that age, the ed was totally oblivious.
i liked the new superman movie at least trying to follow the old movies, unlike the new batman.  unlike movies, where you can do a restart every decade or so, comics have the illusion of a seamless timestream.  i think it was peter david in she hulk that said the more popular a character is the less they are able to age/change.

[Dr.Volt]

Here-here!  And it was done in such lame way.  One magic spell and suddenly...zingo...Peter's single again.  That's just stupid!

I'm with you man, I like MJ.  And I liked them married.  We need good depictions of marriage in comics.  And I frankly resent Joe Q's opinion that good stories can't be told with Peter married.  That's just rediculous.  Didn't Marvel have enough freedom with Peter to date with Spidey Unlimited???  This just doesn't make sense!  I'd like to say it's immoral...but it's probably just lame story telling.

[Midnight]

People enjoy a suffering hero.

[BlueBard]

People enjoy a suffering hero.

Only insofar as the suffering is temporary...  I'd like to think most people are still part of the 'Happy Ending' crowd.  Suffering for the sake of suffering is simply demoralizing and futile.  There's very little noble or heroic about that.  Perseverance in the midst of trials that is ultimately rewarded is hopeful and satisfying to the soul.

Plus, it's not terribly believable that absolutely everything in Peter's life should go wrong except putting away supervillains after getting the daylights beaten out of him time after time.

Okay, I recognize that for the sake of putting necessary conflict into a storyline Peter/Spider-Man has to suffer at times.  And they're going to have to strain credulity to some point in order to do that across several titles on a regular or semi-regular basis.  I've found some of what Marvel has done to be very, very distasteful to me, personally.

Personally, I liked the fact that Peter had someone to go back to when he was done fighting the good fight.  I guess Marvel is going after the socially-dysfunctional single nerd demographic.

I also have to wonder where in the heck Doctor Strange is hanging out that he isn't A) aware of what's going on and B) doing something about it.  Some Sorcerer Supreme.

[Midnight]

All suffering is temporary.

[stumpy]

I think there is something to that. Lots of people associate drama with tragedy and suffering. Of course, all lives are temporary, too, so at some point this line of reasoning can lead to truths with no relevance...

And, as perhaps a broad cultural phenomenon, many writers (and many readers) in comics, movies, television, etc. make the mistake of confusing depression and darkness with depth and maturity. It's such a juvenile and simplistic view of the world, but it holds cache. I have conversations with people in real life who are going on about how so-and-so is so deep and sensitive or artistic when, in fact, he is just a mediocre jerk who takes out his frustrations, insecurities, and failure to achieve happiness on those around him.

I have no idea where the culture gets this notion, but we see it all the time. To be taken seriously, one has to write a dark story or have a negative outlook. What fraction of critically acclaimed movies are comedies? And, I love much of what Marvel does (at least back when I was a more active comics reader), but they, too, have based much of their success on a certain negative taint to the storylines. And, I appreciate that a more mature book will feature stories that include the stress real people experience when dealing with actual problems. When Peter Parker wondered how he is going to cover the rent, I've been there, too (and, this was driven home as I was re-reading back issues as I couldn't afford comics at the time). But, real people also deal successfully with their issues and find enjoyment in their lives. Someone who never pulls his head above water eventually loses my interest.

I think it's too bad. Plenty of great stories involve tragedy and tragic characters and many great heroic stories center on overcoming those things. But, to me, one of the positive aspects of comics is that great stories can be told without excluding the happy ending. In other words, the heroes can save the day and stride off into the sunset. Not that every story should wind up all shiny-happy, but it's too bad when a heroic character never has a happy ending; when, despite all the good he does, his overall life lays against the dark backdrop of one crushing day after another.

[zuludelta]

Excellent points, Stumpy. I will disagree with you on this particular point though:

In other words, the heroes can save the day and stride off into the sunset. Not that every story should wind up all shiny-happy, but it's too bad when a heroic character never has a happy ending; when, despite all the good he does, his overall life lays against the dark backdrop of one crushing day after another.

... characters in a long-running, open-ended serial such as the Spider-Man books aren't allowed to have any "real" endings, happy or otherwise (unless it's one those "What If...?" or Elseworlds stories)... it's just the nature of the on-going publishing beast.

I think the motivation for the changes in "Brand New Day" and "One More Day" has more to do with rolling back the imaginary timeline and keeping the comic book incarnation of the character in line with the "common sense/mainstream/popular" notion of the character (that of a struggling, young-ish, unmarried Peter Parker who dates MJ) in an attempt (clumsy as it is) at brand synergy rather than a directed effort to mire the character in tragedy.     

[Previsionary]

People enjoy a suffering hero.

I agree with BB. Most people don't turn to comics to see MORE suffering. People use entertainment to escape the "suffering" of their own lives. Sure, they may enjoy some tragedy here and there depending on how the character deals with it, but a good deal of people will turn away from something that is just one bad event after another. It's overloading and no sane person would want to keep experiencing it through a fictional character when they can just deal with their own. In fact, [Core] Spidey right now is selling less than Ultimate spidey. Other than the story decisions, I would assume ultimate spidey is doing much better because he, unlike 616 Peter, hasn't been stuck in a stagnant story for pretty much a full year that has to do with death, revenge, betrayals, and demons. That's one of the good things BND is bringing to the field, some type of happiness from all the dread Pete was dealing with.

Zulu, Quesada gave an interview about his intents of OMD/BND (and he talked about it earlier at some con before OMD started and met with the same response---boos and hissing) and you're pretty much dead on in that aspect. Though, Q overstated some things as Peter has never been super down on his luck as he would like us to believe.

Just to end this, something funny I read:

I didn't hear any "boo"ing from the crowd at the Mondo Marvel panel, but the MJ marriage once again dominated the Q&A portion of the panel, though you wouldn't guess from the three-sentence summary it gets in Newsarama's report. The CBR report actually mentions a few of the specific questions/answers addressed, but misses what I thought was the money-quote of the hour, which at least Newsarama paraphrases in their aforementioned three-sentence summary. When asked why we need Spidey unmarried in the regular books, when you can read new young-unmarried-Spidey stories in Ultimate Spider-Man, Joe responded that there are all sorts of things you can do with regular Spidey that you can't do with younger, Ultimate Spidey, because younger Spidey can't do things like "have sex, or download porn."

digital-eraser live journal

[stumpy]

Excellent points, Stumpy. I will disagree with you on this particular point though:

In other words, the heroes can save the day and stride off into the sunset. Not that every story should wind up all shiny-happy, but it's too bad when a heroic character never has a happy ending; when, despite all the good he does, his overall life lays against the dark backdrop of one crushing day after another.

... characters in a long-running, open-ended serial such as the Spider-Man books aren't allowed to have any "real" endings, happy or otherwise (unless it's one those "What If...?" or Elseworlds stories)... it's just the nature of the on-going publishing beast.

Thanks and I don't think we really disagree on that. I didn't mean that the whole series should end one way or another; just that a given story arc can have a happy ending. In other words, the hero can save the day and take his bows without the last page of the story series reminding us of every other ongoing tragedy or how awful his day-to-day life is.

[Midnight]

Let me append to my statement:

People enjoy a suffering hero. People enjoy sitting on the cusp of hope and fear; the hope the hero will overcome the suffering and the fear that he won't. People don't enjoy the fact that the hero is suffering, but without the suffering there is no cusp, there is no high point, no climax.

That's why Peter can't be happy, at least not for more than a few pages. As for this arc specifically, I haven't read it, so I'm not qualified to give any sort of opinion. I will, however, share something that's always made me think critically about storyarcs which are unpopular.

"Later, years later sometimes, it would turn out that oftentimes, I couldn't even REMEMBER most stories I'd read featuring these beloved characters, but, again, oftentimes, I could remember quite well the ones that made me mad, or upset, or distressed. In hindsight, these were some of my favorite stories." -- Gail Simone, Bloodstains On The Looking Glass

[lugaru]

People enjoy a suffering hero.

I agree with BB. Most people don't turn to comics to see MORE suffering. People use entertainment to escape the "suffering" of their own lives. Sure, they may enjoy some tragedy here and there depending on how the character deals with it, but a good deal of people will turn away from something that is just one bad event after another. It's overloading and no sane person would want to keep experiencing it through a fictional character when they can just deal with their own. In fact, [Core] Spidey right now is selling less than Ultimate spidey. Other than the story decisions, I would assume ultimate spidey is doing much better because he, unlike 616 Peter, hasn't been stuck in a stagnant story for pretty much a full year that has to do with death, revenge, betrayals, and demons. That's one of the good things BND is bringing to the field, some type of happiness from all the dread Pete was dealing with.

Zulu, Quesada gave an interview about his intents of OMD/BND (and he talked about it earlier at some con before OMD started and met with the same response---boos and hissing) and you're pretty much dead on in that aspect. Though, Q overstated some things as Peter has never been super down on his luck as he would like us to believe.

Just to end this, something funny I read:

I didn't hear any "boo"ing from the crowd at the Mondo Marvel panel, but the MJ marriage once again dominated the Q&A portion of the panel, though you wouldn't guess from the three-sentence summary it gets in Newsarama's report. The CBR report actually mentions a few of the specific questions/answers addressed, but misses what I thought was the money-quote of the hour, which at least Newsarama paraphrases in their aforementioned three-sentence summary. When asked why we need Spidey unmarried in the regular books, when you can read new young-unmarried-Spidey stories in Ultimate Spider-Man, Joe responded that there are all sorts of things you can do with regular Spidey that you can't do with younger, Ultimate Spidey, because younger Spidey can't do things like "have sex, or download porn."

digital-eraser live journal

Is Joe saying that both married adults and teenagers can neither have sex nor download porn? Man, I better tell my girlfriend that we are going to be a couple but never tie the knot...

[RTTingle]

Its all stupid.

Sometimes I think its an ego trip and some people aren't looking to advance the story or do something new for the actual sake of the character as much as put their own stamp on it and declare themselves the savior, next great genius, etc.

Sure the industry has an issue with characters who can't age, grow, develop, and so on to a point, because they don't want to bring an end to their cash cow and really get the fans po'ed.  Its why we see 2nd and 3rd string characters get that done to them - cause they can without it actually causing too much harm. 

Its simple really, the solution. 

Theres no reason why when a character gets so far along... like Spidey.... that they can't divide his adventures up among his titles.  Spidey, Supes, Batman... they all have a few titles among them.  I'd love to see one comic be strictly about their early years, another their present times & continiung story and another one that is just whatever it wants to be - totally out of continuity.

Each of the icon characters has enough titles to do that.

Theres no reason why this incredible stupid idea has to come about to basically do just that.

If you want to tell stories about when Peter was single and in high school and still nervous and unsure of himself as a hero --- then tell me stories about him during those times without the huge setup --- just have it be a story set during those times!  Simple!  Its like they all get a kick out of defacating on the others stories and see who can screw it up and make it more confusing than the person before.

And don't give me all that double talk about doing this to help keep continuity, etc.  That load of manure can fertilize a few dozen football fields --- everytime they try to fix something to keep continuity... they make it ten times worse.

All this, for the added salt in the wound, so we can have a hero named Jackpot?!?!?!

What a (censored tirade of obscenities that is hanging in the ozone still over South Florida).

Clones, Totems, Jackpot...

They willl never learn --- will they?

RTT

[Talavar]

The big problem is continuity.  Fans generally like continuity - they like it when a character references previous adventures that impact on the current situation, and get grumpy when the character in question doesn't reference a situation that they believe impacts the current situation.  The problem with continuity, however, is that, for characters that have existed for decades with monthly - or more frequent - stories, continuity is a stick big enough to beat the collective fan-base to death.

Take a look at Marvel - they've been using the sliding scale of time for a while now, so that every major event of the Marvel universe of the past forty years has basically taken place within a decade - and it will always be a decade.  The more things happen, the more and more crowded that decade gets.  It's gotten to the point that Tony Stark must've been building new armours every other month in that time frame, the Kree-Skrull War took an afternoon, and so on.

DC isn't any better, with their resets/retcons of Crisis on Infinite Earths, Hypertime, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, etc.; merely different.  Instead of working with their complete published history - a daunting task where many of their characters are concerned - they simply started over, and created massive new continuity problems of what 'happened', what no longer counts, and the ordering of new events.

Now I'm a big fan of comics, but very few of my favourite storylines/series are superhero fare, and of that even less is in continuity.  Because of continuity characters never really get a satisfying ending, or even significant character development.  An excellent storyline where a villain gets his just desserts after putting our hero through the wringer gets undercut by a sub-par story months or years later when said-villain returns.  During a long run on a book by a skilled writer a character might grow, change, learn, develop, only to have it all undone when a new creative team takes over the book, and tries to bring the character 'back to basics.'

All this being said - I like continuity.  When it's done well it adds a sense of depth to a character; they have a past shared with the reader, and it strengthens the reader's feeling for the character.  It just doesn't seem to be worth the stranglehold it's putting on the majority of superhero comics.

[zuludelta]

Now I'm a big fan of comics, but very few of my favourite storylines/series are superhero fare, and of that even less is in continuity.  Because of continuity characters never really get a satisfying ending, or even significant character development.  An excellent storyline where a villain gets his just desserts after putting our hero through the wringer gets undercut by a sub-par story months or years later when said-villain returns.  During a long run on a book by a skilled writer a character might grow, change, learn, develop, only to have it all undone when a new creative team takes over the book, and tries to bring the character 'back to basics.

Stop reading my mind!!!

[Talavar]

Now I'm a big fan of comics, but very few of my favourite storylines/series are superhero fare, and of that even less is in continuity.  Because of continuity characters never really get a satisfying ending, or even significant character development.  An excellent storyline where a villain gets his just desserts after putting our hero through the wringer gets undercut by a sub-par story months or years later when said-villain returns.  During a long run on a book by a skilled writer a character might grow, change, learn, develop, only to have it all undone when a new creative team takes over the book, and tries to bring the character 'back to basics.

Stop reading my mind!!!

Great minds, and all that jazz.

[Ares_God_of_War]

spider-man can't be happy because he is the Marvel Universe equivilent of Charlie Brown. He's a great guy but without Lucy taking away his football constantly then the underdog factor is gone. But man, Marvel sure does kick him in the proverbial nethers on a regular basis. Uncle dies, Girlfriend dies, best freinds dad's a nutjob, bestfriend tries to kill you, best friend dies, aunt dies, I think her soul is stolen somewhere, best friends nutjob dad comes back, he and the wife seperate, find out true love gf that dies slept with best friends psycho dad, baby is missing and probably dead, reveal your identity so a d*** in armor can look better to the public and now his wife and he were never married. I say the poor guy should be borderline psychotic by now. Peter Parker I salute you and wish for better days to come