The HD-DVD/Blu-Ray War: Has Blu-Ray won?

[zuludelta]

If you're one of those early adopters who've recently purchased an HD-DVD player or have started re-buying portions of your movie collection in HD-DVD, the following news can't be anything but bad (or mildly annoying, at the very least). It looks like the format war didn't take as long as the Beta-VHS war of two decades ago. Then again, media format may not be as important as it is now, since a lot of HD content these days is streamed/downloaded via the internet or is viewed on hard-drive/flash drive based devices that don't require external media such as discs:

- Warner Bros. Pictures drops HD-DVD
- Paramount Pictures poised to drop HD-DVD support in wake of Warner's move
- Microsoft developing Blu-Ray add-on drive for XBox360

Right now, the studio share between the formats look like this:

[stumpy]

Ha. I have to show this to my aunt. She recently replaced her broken DVD/VHS combo player and was asking me if there was anything newer on the market she should consider buying instead of basically the same unit, especially since this time around she has a 1080p TV set. In this context, I told her that she may as well wait on new technology (i.e. just buy what she had before). My reasoning was that the new stuff (HD DVD and Blu-Ray) was still expensive and there would probably be a shake-up in the market as one technology came to dominate, after which prices would come down a bit and she could be more certain that whatever she bought would be around for a while.

As to the actual issue, I wish I had enough time to keep track of what all is involved in this format war. As best I know, Blu-Ray has some technical advantages (capacity etc.), but is less consumer-friendly than HD-DVD in terms of production costs, getting rid of silly region encodings, copy-protections, etc. I am still not ready to spend $2K-$3K for a new TV and high-def player, so I am in wait-and-see mode. My guess is that, by the time I get around to ponying up for a new system, one system will predominate and plenty of workarounds for the consumer restrictions will be available.

The odds are the final 802.11n wireless spec will be released before I upgrade my video system.  :ph34r:

[zuludelta]

The technical advantages of one format over the other, as far as I'm concerned, are pretty insignificant... workarounds exist for either format to be able to mimic features that are allegedly "exclusive" to the other format. You ask me, I think Blu-ray (or HD-DVD, if it ever recovers studio share) is probably going to be the interim HD video format (sort of like how Laser Disc and VCD were the interim formats between VHS and DVD), HD video technologies are still maturing.

A big feature, I think, that will determine widespread adoption, is copy-protection. Less copy-protection will probably mean quicker adoption by consumers for all sorts of reasons. I hate hardware/media based copy protection myself, primarily because just on the basis of principle, I don't like being told what I can or can't do with the hardware/media I've purchased legally (it really annoys me that here in Canada, we pay more for writeable media like CD-Rs/DVD-Rs because the government assumes that anybody who buys such products is up to no good and thus they tax the heck out of it... well they tax the hell out of everything, but more with writeable media).

[Verfall]

And funny enough, the one industry that is often cited with being the main factor of whether or not a media format gets picked, the industry that let VHS and DVD take the lead, is practically frightened over the picture quality achievable by these two formats.

What industry is that?

Porn.

Porn directors are not to happy with the fact these two formats let you see every imperfection there performers may have. The TV and movie industries suffer from a similar problem, but most of the time their stars aren't buck naked. Add in the fact the internet has basically cornered the market for skin flicks, and this format war is going to take awhile to pick a winner.

Than again, the only people who generally care are these media junkies who just have to have the best picture and the best sound and have to spend 10 grand on their entertainment systems. The rest of us will slowly follow along and whine and moan when we have to replace our DVD collections, assuming you've even upgraded from VHS yet.

[stumpy]

Verfall, I wonder if the adult business is worried that the HD process is less forgiving of marginal cameras and other production equipment? I mean, I heard that normal TV production techniques had to change a bit to accommodate the digital changeover because so many things that looked fine analog looked cheesy in the higher resolution format. I guess I really don't know what the distinctions are between the adult and "normal" film businesses, but I suspect that the big studios/networks are more willing to spend more for better cameras, sets, props, lighting, etc. Total guess, of course.

ZD, I agree on both points, basically.

What will largely slow adoption of the "new" HD formats (I remember being excited about the blue laser diodes like ten years ago!) is that the video display hardware is still pretty expensive. Lots of people will adopt early (and maybe I will, too) but, by the time prices hit more typical consumer price points, there will likely be some other advancement to change the storage landscape. It may not even be another way to store bits on a spinning disk. Who knows? Maybe 3D memory chips or some other currently on-the-horizon technology will be cheap by then...

I tend to think along the same lines in terms of copy protection technology. That's what I was thinking in terms of things like fewer copy protection schemes and lack of region encoding being a more consumer-friendly aspect of HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray. At some level, it bothers me that the development of this technology has been so focused on meeting the goals of the studios. I also understand that there is a need for that, too, but the fact that lots of DVD/VHS recording devices make it a pain to record a cable box's output is plain annoying. My aunt's new DVD/VCR doesn't even have a coax input, which I find to be ridiculous.

[captainspud]

I don't want BluRay to win because I despise Sony as a company. They've shown nothing but arrogance and self-delusion for 30 years ("Of COURSE people will pay us money for the PRIVILEGE of using beta!"), and I really think it's time they got a major, public slap-down.

Giving them victory in the format war just sends them all the wrong messages.

Boo-urns.

[bredon7777]

*sings* The Internet is for porn, the Internet is for Porn/Why you think the net was born? Porn! Porn! Porn! </threadjack>

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Bluray does have one huge advantage.

A better name.

Their name is easier to remember, more distinctive and sounds different from HD-DVD.  Ultimately it doesn't matter, but things like that can actually make a large difference.

[zuludelta]

And funny enough, the one industry that is often cited with being the main factor of whether or not a media format gets picked, the industry that let VHS and DVD take the lead, is practically frightened over the picture quality achievable by these two formats.

What industry is that?

Porn.

Wasn't that an urban myth, though (the notion that what killed Beta was the fact that Sony wouldn't give porn studios approval to market their wares on Betamax tapes)? I still hear it from time to time, but it's been pretty much dispelled.

Oh, here's the word on that particular piece of info (from that beacon of truth, Wikipedia :lol:):

Many theories regarding why Sony's Betamax failed have arisen over the years. One of the more amusing (and false) is that Sony refused to allow pornographic material on their system. A quick perusal of the Betamax library reveals that adult entertainment was readily available. For example, Playboy Industries released their videos in a dual format, both Betamax and VHS, for most of the 1970s and 80s (and can be confirmed with a quick search through eBay's adult section, or other used video markets). Second, the adult industry is too small to have any lasting impact on standards selection. According to Forbes.com, adult video income is approximately $1 billion. "The industry is tiny next to broadcast television ($32.3 billion in 1999), cable television ($45.5 billion), the newspaper business ($27.5 billion), Hollywood ($31 billion), even to professional and educational publishing ($14.8 billion). When one really examines the numbers, the porn industry — while a subject of fascination — is every bit as marginal as it seems at first glance." [3]

And I can cite, uh, first-hand reports that porn was indeed available on Betamax.

[Verfall]

Shhh, I like spreading the porn myth!

But really, when you get down to it, is the format war really the most important thing for these companies to be focusing on?

We're at the point where one can easily get entire movies on their computers, completely for free, and at times months before they're released in theatres in certain areas. Sure they can sue and do whatever they can to make it illegal, but I think prohibition showed how well that will work. Itunes was a good step for the music industry, but someone needs to come up with a system for movies soon to rival it.

More and more people are refusing to pay for over priced hunks of plastic. The tech junkies may care, but there are plenty of us out there just happy to watch regular old DVD rips and even lower forms of encoding. My brother in law keeps going on and on about blue ray through his PS3 and the quality and blah blah. I'm the kind of person who'll go see a movie in theatres if I think it's worth my money, but more often than not, I o the cheap route. The very cheap route.

All blue ray and hd-dvd means to me is the size of the rar a few years down the line.

[Mr. Hamrick]

And funny enough, the one industry that is often cited with being the main factor of whether or not a media format gets picked, the industry that let VHS and DVD take the lead, is practically frightened over the picture quality achievable by these two formats.

What industry is that?

Porn.

Verfall, I wonder if the adult business is worried that the HD process is less forgiving of marginal cameras and other production equipment? I mean, I heard that normal TV production techniques had to change a bit to accommodate the digital changeover because so many things that looked fine analog looked cheesy in the higher resolution format. I guess I really don't know what the distinctions are between the adult and "normal" film businesses, but I suspect that the big studios/networks are more willing to spend more for better cameras, sets, props, lighting, etc. Total guess, of course.

the short answer is this: It's all about money. 

When the VHS/Beta thing was going on decades ago, the porn industry got behind the VHS format because more formats were able to use VHS in the long run.  Sony wanted to to have the market cornered on production of Beta tapes and equipment, etc.  (And the Beta cameras are so cumbersome, it's not funny.  I've used one, wasn't pretty.)  The Porn Industry knew that they had a new way to market directly to their consumer base and wanted the format that would be the most widely available.

The problem with HD is that right now it's more expensive.  It's more expensive (though worth it) to shoot in HD, to edit in HD, produce the DVDs in HD, and watch the DVDs in HD.  This includes the fact that HD cameras are more expensive.  Though, all of this will change in the next two years or so.  For the porn industry to switch over to HD, it would take away from their profit and that likely annoys them regardless of the fact that the change might allow them to make more money in the long run.

But really, when you get down to it, is the format war really the most important thing for these companies to be focusing on?

We're at the point where one can easily get entire movies on their computers, completely for free, and at times months before they're released in theaters in certain areas. Sure they can sue and do whatever they can to make it illegal, but I think prohibition showed how well that will work. Itunes was a good step for the music industry, but someone needs to come up with a system for movies soon to rival it.

And there will be an "ITunes" equivalent for movies in the near future, not including the promoting of "Direct TV" and all that.  However, the industry will still first and foremost want to release what it can in the theaters.  And there will still be a HUGE (though likely less huge in the future) market for Direct to DVD that many people forget is there.  That last part is one reason why the format war is somewhat important.  The bigger issue with HD is going to be broadcasting as in the next few years, broadcasting in HD will become more the standard than the alternative. 

[BWPS]

Wow, I really am not ever going to pay $40-$50 for a DVD even if it is blue on the bottom. I didn't realize there was even a contest though. Are both players backwards compatible with regular DVD?

[Mr. Hamrick]

Wow, I really am not ever going to pay $40-$50 for a DVD even if it is blue on the bottom. I didn't realize there was even a contest though. Are both players backwards compatible with regular DVD?

Yes and no.  The Blu-Ray players will play standard definition discs but will not play standard definition discs in high definition.  I am not sure about the HD DVD players but I assume its the same way. 

Eventually, once the technology becomes widely available, the price of the Blu-Ray discs will drop to about the same amount as what we pay for DVDs now.  Remember, actually some of you may not, buying a movie on VHS once cost about $25 a pop or more.  Those were the  ones that were more reasonably priced.  Some were much more than that (at one point it depended on the popularity of the title).

[GogglesPizanno]

Yes and no.  The Blu-Ray players will play standard definition discs but will not play standard definition discs in high definition.  I am not sure about the HD DVD players but I assume its the same way.

I might be wrong but I thought that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players would upsample stardard DVD's. No standard DVD will ever be HD, but I thought the upsampling was one of the features they were touting to get people to upgrade.

Eventually, once the technology becomes widely available, the price of the Blu-Ray discs will drop to about the same amount as what we pay for DVDs now.

Ive noticed over the holidays that price of a standard DVD has actually gone up. The cynic in me believes its a ploy to bring standard DVD prices up in line with HD disks, hence making it psychologically more acceptable to upgrade to the newer hardware cause "Hey, they are basically the same price." This sets a bad precedent in that if people become accustomed to the higher prices, there is less incentive to to bring them down again.

Personally, I'm not upgrading my TV till I have to, and I wont buy an HD player until I can get one for $50. I like my DVD's and they work fine for me. While HD is pretty sharp and clean, it's not enough for me to warrant the cost of an upgrade of equipment.

As for the porn on Betamax etc... I have heard that Sony has the same rules regarding adult content for Blu Ray that it did for Beta. You can release all the adult material you want on the format, but no disc manufacturing plant run or operated by Sony will do them, so it has to be done by a third party. Back in the Beta days, this was a big deal. Nowadays... uh not so much as I could do a run off my PC if I wanted to.

[Mr. Hamrick]

Yes and no.  The Blu-Ray players will play standard definition discs but will not play standard definition discs in high definition.  I am not sure about the HD DVD players but I assume its the same way.

I might be wrong but I thought that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players would upsample stardard DVD's. No standard DVD will ever be HD, but I thought the upsampling was one of the features they were touting to get people to upgrade.

Eventually, once the technology becomes widely available, the price of the Blu-Ray discs will drop to about the same amount as what we pay for DVDs now.

Ive noticed over the holidays that price of a standard DVD has actually gone up. The cynic in me believes its a ploy to bring standard DVD prices up in line with HD disks, hence making it psychologically more acceptable to upgrade to the newer hardware cause "Hey, they are basically the same price." This sets a bad precedent in that if people become accustomed to the higher prices, there is less incentive to to bring them down again.

Personally, I'm not upgrading my TV till I have to, and I wont buy an HD player until I can get one for $50. I like my DVD's and they work fine for me. While HD is pretty sharp and clean, it's not enough for me to warrant the cost of an upgrade of equipment.

As for the porn on Betamax etc... I have heard that Sony has the same rules regarding adult content for Blu Ray that it did for Beta. You can release all the adult material you want on the format, but no disc manufacturing plant run or operated by Sony will do them, so it has to be done by a third party. Back in the Beta days, this was a big deal. Nowadays... uh not so much as I could do a run off my PC if I wanted to.

I can only speak for Blue-Ray as that is what I have access to. 

As for pricing, depends on where you get your DVDs at.  Wal-mart's prices haven't really changed.  Target seems to be offering "Target Exclusive editions" that are a little more.  Then Best Buy, which has gone up a little bit but some of that is due the amount of "special edition" movies coming out with more bonus features which are generally at a higher cost. 

[zuludelta]

the short answer is this: It's all about money. 

When the VHS/Beta thing was going on decades ago, the porn industry got behind the VHS format because more formats were able to use VHS in the long run.  Sony wanted to to have the market cornered on production of Beta tapes and equipment, etc.  (And the Beta cameras are so cumbersome, it's not funny.  I've used one, wasn't pretty.)  The Porn Industry knew that they had a new way to market directly to their consumer base and wanted the format that would be the most widely available. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the "Beta died because Sony didn't want porn on them" is essentially a myth (an amusing one for sure, but largely false). The home video industry for adult videos back then was too small to influence adoption trends for the most part... it's just one of those false factoids that sound like they could be true, but really aren't. The funny thing is that the same patently false rumour is now being floated around about Blu-ray (and I find it endlessly amusing that Blu-ray Group reps now go around basically saying "we carry porn!" at every opportunity just to dispel the rumour  :lol:).

You hit the nail with Sony wanting to corner the market on Betamax-branded equipment, though. In many ways, Sony's approach to the Betamax was similar to Apple's early days with the Macintosh. There were too many hoops to jump through for a third party to develop hardware for the platform, which in turn led to higher prices for Betamax players and equipment. By the time Sony had realized that they were playing against themselves and restructured their prices, the cheaper VHS players created by JVC and Panasonic (I think they were going by a different name back then) had already gained a majority share of the North American market.

[Mr. Hamrick]

The funny thing is that the same patently false rumour is now being floated around about Blu-ray (and I find it endlessly amusing that Blu-ray Group reps now go around basically saying "we carry porn!" at every opportunity just to dispel the rumour  :lol:).

That's weird, you must have one heck of a Blu-Ray rep.  Mine didn't mention it at all.  :P

[zuludelta]

The funny thing is that the same patently false rumour is now being floated around about Blu-ray (and I find it endlessly amusing that Blu-ray Group reps now go around basically saying "we carry porn!" at every opportunity just to dispel the rumour  :lol:).

That's weird, you must have one heck of a Blu-Ray rep.  Mine didn't mention it at all.  :P

The whole obsession over the alleged "kingmaking" powers of the adult film industry in the format war probably reached a peak in last year's Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, where some of the biggest news going around was that Vivid Video (North America's largest adult film studio) would be releasing their latest productions on Blu-ray. Personally, I find it strange that consumer electronics industry observers think it's such a big deal... most adult video content is accessed on-line these days (or, uh, that's what I hear from my moral degenerate friends  :lol:)     

[thalaw2]

I don't want BluRay to win because I despise Sony as a company. They've shown nothing but arrogance and self-delusion for 30 years ("Of COURSE people will pay us money for the PRIVILEGE of using beta!"), and I really think it's time they got a major, public slap-down.

Giving them victory in the format war just sends them all the wrong messages.

Boo-urns.

I agree.   I don't like Sony products.  They used to be cool but now it's nothing but a way to trap and monopolize.  Remember what happened with their music CDs a few years ago and having one of their digital cameras is a mess....SD memory is much better. 

I Sony does win would I get a better deal by buying a PS3 or by buying a dedicated Blu-Ray player?


Whats so wrong with the DVD format we use now?  Heck...what was wrong with vinyl?

[Cardmaster]

 :lol: I just got an image in my head of vinyl dvds. ^_^

-CM

[Midnight]

I don't want BluRay to win because I despise Sony as a company. They've shown nothing but arrogance and self-delusion for 30 years ("Of COURSE people will pay us money for the PRIVILEGE of using beta!"), and I really think it's time they got a major, public slap-down.

Giving them victory in the format war just sends them all the wrong messages.

Boo-urns.

I agree.   I don't like Sony products.  They used to be cool but now it's nothing but a way to trap and monopolize.  Remember what happened with their music CDs a few years ago and having one of their digital cameras is a mess....SD memory is much better. 

I Sony does win would I get a better deal by buying a PS3 or by buying a dedicated Blu-Ray player?


Whats so wrong with the DVD format we use now?  Heck...what was wrong with vinyl?

I don't have storage in my car for a vinyl stack, or the dashboard space for a turntable.

[thalaw2]

If you modify the wheels so that they can play vinyl while you drive then you could have four turntables!  Imagine that!  You could slow down, speed up, rewind, and pause all without removing your hands from the wheel or taking your eyes off the road....and it would be stylish!     :thumbup::P








It could happen.

[GogglesPizanno]

One of my dads first cars had an in dash 45rpm record player.
The needle had to be weighted down so much cause of the bouncing and motion of the car, that it would totally tear up a record after listening to for a little while.

Stupid but cool....

[zuludelta]

Well, the format war is pretty much over, except for the crying and the store returns.

Toshiba, the primary developer behind HD-DVD, has announced that the company will halt HD-DVD product development. This comes on the heels of the announcements that Wal-Mart plans to drop HD-DVD merchandise after they sell through their stock and Netflix will use Blu-Ray as their HD format of choice. Consumer electronics retail giant Best Buy also recently released a statement saying that they will recommend Blu-Ray over HD-DVD to their customers.

[GogglesPizanno]

Oh but thats not the end...
Don't run off and buy a Blu-Ray player just yet

Now its Blu-Ray vs. Blu-Ray.

http://consumerist.com/344116/buyers-beware-current-blu+ray-dvd-players-wont-correctly-play-future-discs

[zuludelta]

I know it sounds a little counterintuitive, but I think the evolving standard specs for Blu-ray hardware might help push PS3 sales. The PS3 is now only slightly more expensive than a stand-alone Blu-ray player (while doubling as a next-gen game console as well as a Linux-based PC in some configurations), and it's the only player currently on the market that's been confirmed to support Blu-ray 1.0, 1.1, and the future 2.0 format.

[Protomorph]

This sets a bad precedent in that if people become accustomed to the higher prices, there is less incentive to to bring them down again.

It's working for gasoline...

[GogglesPizanno]

I think the evolving standard specs for Blu-ray hardware might help push PS3 sales.

I'm sure Sony NEVER thought of that happy coincidence  ;)

It's working for gasoline...

...and food ...and utilities ...and insurance  etc. etc. :banghead:
Unfortunately Gas is not one of those things where we can put it off until Best Buy is having a sale or something.

[yell0w_lantern]

Blu Ray is mostly a scam to add newer encryption technology.
I mean who really needs 9 hours of space for a movie?
TV series maybe but a movie? No.

[zuludelta]

Blu Ray is mostly a scam to add newer encryption technology.
I mean who really needs 9 hours of space for a movie?
TV series maybe but a movie? No.

Hmmm... I think the copy-protection and encryption issues are motivated by a separate concern, there are distinct technical advantages to using Blu-ray. Blu-ray isn't just a high-definition DVD with longer running time, all that space can be used for other features as well besides longer media. I am uncomfortable with the Blu-ray contingent's emphasis on content protection, though, since it seems to limit what the technology and the media can be used for (although it's a bit ironic that Blu-ray devices use an open, Java-based profile - called BD-Java - for applications programming).

In any event, I think Blu-ray (or any disc-based media) isn't going to be as successful as DVD was a decade ago. It seems like the portable storage trend in media is moving towards solid-state memory devices, especially now that the first practical and reliable high-capacity SSDs are entering the market... they don't require as many moving parts to use and can hold much more data.