What do you really want out of a FF mod?

[C4]

And please this is not who do you want a mod of so don't tell me I want a TMNT mod (That will go in Prev's thread)

I am asking what type of things have you always wished for in this type of game?

I will give some examples :

1. Arial melee - yeah I know

2. For a Hero vs Villian fight to last over 10 minutes and actually feel like you have just been in an epic battle without them both having pumped up passive defences.

3. To be able to approach a mission from different angles (stealth, power)

4. Be able to chat up the female civilians (chicks dig heat vision)

5. To be the villian   :gauntlet:

Even the things like number 1 which are unlikely to happen please post, you never know....

[tommyboy]

For me, as enjoyable as it is to have a well written story with engaging dialogue and accurate characterization, replayability is more important. I go back into the rumble room time and again to see how various battles will turn out, but have a lot of Mods I've played through once then have never gone back to.
So for me, for there to be replayability means a fair few characters, hero and villain. A variety of powers (seeing a character use their one punch with its one animation over and over gets old quickly for me), and maps that feature possibilities for different strategies and outcomes.
Having a bit of RPG in terms of your characters upgrade-able powers is nice too. Will they pick the melees or the ranged powers if they can't afford both in the time the campaign takes?
I also like a mod to have an atmosphere, a mood, appropriate to its theme. That means loading screens, data in the computers, a different look and feel to it from the standard campaigns. I don't particularly want Freedom Force but with Spider-man instead of Minute Man any more, as fun as that was at the start of the game, in 2002.
Custom scripting always plays well with me. If the author has taken the time to add something new that you wont see happen in the vanilla game thats always good. FFX has made this possible, ezscript even more so.

[detourne_me]

My Dream mod is this:
1: a specific universe - like marvel, DC, invincible, hellboy, and OH Yeah TMNT!

2: free roaming with different maps for different locales of the universe

3: you have to build up and recruit the heroes of the universe.  i love having to buy the new powers and upgrade existing ones.

4: different magnitudes of power, for example daredevil couldn't take on The Wrecker, so as DD you'd have to do a ton of side missions his power level, and then use the prestige points to recruit someone like She-Hulk to take on the wrecker, this would carry on as She-Hulk wouldn't be able to tak on Ultron or Kang by herself...

5: changing hero skins in game, and i'm not talking about new hero files.  just in the recruitment/training screen, switching skins for the missions.

6: No endgame, just maxing out the playable characters

7: periodic content, like new missions, updated characters, etc.


-come to think of it,  sounds a lot like tommy and i have similar opinions-

[lmalonsof]

I am asking what type of things have you always wished for in this type of game?

The game:
I've played a couple of times NWN and one of the most impressive things that it has is its depth. Huge maps with tons of different characters to interact with, the sense of being inside the adventure... I know FF is a different kind of game but I like that sense of being yourself part of the adventure.

Characters:
I like to play in a strategic way. I don't like very powerful heroes. I want to be in a fight and sense that if I think I will get more than if I hit. It's hard to find a mod that forces you to think besides the obvious who-do-I-hit-first.

What I don't like at all it's a 10 minutes fight against some passive defence.

Missions:
On the other hand, I think that a good story is key for a mod. We have the tools (thx to FFX and EZscript) to implement almost everything in FFv3R so we only need to look for good stories.

I agree with Tommy about the atmosphere and the mood must be appropiate because it helps to make the difference. Anyway if you have a good story and you don't know how to change the main screen... please release it!!!

I'm sure that most of us use EZscript. I really would like to play your missions (that's why I started the EZscript database in the EZscript wiki) but I've never seen any apart those by Benton and myself. I'm sure there must be good stories to play already writen.

[C4]

Hmmm a lot of good input already.

I've played a couple of times NWN and one of the most impressive things that it has is its depth. Huge maps with tons of different characters to interact with, the sense of being inside the adventure... I know FF is a different kind of game but I like that sense of being yourself part of the adventure.

I agree with this, even if FF is not exactly the same type of game the world and civilians could be more interactive to help pull the player in.

What I don't like at all it's a 10 minutes fight against some passive defence.

yeah, if I have to wait for one of my twenty attacks to hit I rather just exit.

1: and OH Yeah TMNT!

heh  :lol:

2: free roaming with different maps for different locales of the universe

As much as I know people will like a freeroam mod I need to introduce new characters so linear/story driven mod it will have to be.

changing hero skins in game, and i'm not talking about new hero files.  just in the recruitment/training screen, switching skins for the missions.

This is actually something I like as well. Like switching Luke Cages outfits for missions.

Having a bit of RPG in terms of your characters upgrade-able powers is nice too. Will they pick the melees or the ranged powers if they can't afford both in the time the campaign takes?

RPG seems to be very important from the few posts already.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

For me, as enjoyable as it is to have a well written story with engaging dialogue and accurate characterization, replayability is more important. I go back into the rumble room time and again to see how various battles will turn out, but have a lot of Mods I've played through once then have never gone back to.
So for me, for there to be replayability means a fair few characters, hero and villain. A variety of powers (seeing a character use their one punch with its one animation over and over gets old quickly for me), and maps that feature possibilities for different strategies and outcomes.
Having a bit of RPG in terms of your characters upgrade-able powers is nice too. Will they pick the melees or the ranged powers if they can't afford both in the time the campaign takes?
I also like a mod to have an atmosphere, a mood, appropriate to its theme. That means loading screens, data in the computers, a different look and feel to it from the standard campaigns. I don't particularly want Freedom Force but with Spider-man instead of Minute Man any more, as fun as that was at the start of the game, in 2002.
Custom scripting always plays well with me. If the author has taken the time to add something new that you wont see happen in the vanilla game thats always good. FFX has made this possible, ezscript even more so.

I'm left nearly speechless (he admitted, to the satisfaction of the entire community).  I would agree with tommyboy in that these are the qualities of a mod that I find most appealing; however, I would still place creative, engaging narrative over replayability (though replayability takes up a very close second, and mod innovativeness (such as creative custom scripting) assumes a very close third).  To me, this video game is an important medium for testing our responses to certain discourses when we may be at our most absorbed/immersed in our own sensory experience.  A great story, in which the reader/player has an important, co-writerly role to play (and the reader always has an important role to play), can show us something new, something valuable, something unforgettable because we have made it our own and invited it into our home (and "home" will be an important concept in my latest project).  That's what I would like to achieve with my current mod project (which, if I can convince Prem it should be a mod and not an online graphic novel ;), I hope to see through to the end).

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

[Previsionary]

It's a book dannit, tiobe. It's a freakin book and that's that. :P

Just to offer some perspective from the other end and not the wisher's end,

FF is a game that saps a lot of energy modding wise especially if you don't have a lot of people specialized in a certain area of "modability". I don't mean just skins, fx, and meshes. Everything in FF seems to be split up over parts that requires some type of effort to change and the atmospheric stuff just happens to be directly connected to FFedit...something most players happen to fear because, "it looks so hard!". It also happens to give most players the most errors...go figure. As a modder, we want to offer new, fun, and unique things to the players for them to enjoy over and over again, but, the typical player doesn't know how much work it takes to even give them a simple one mission mod or even a "Freedom force...but with marvel characters!" mod (more appropriately known as a conversion mod). A lot of things that were mentioned here: The XP/power thing, the chat system, character balancing, periodic content/no endgame (which doesn't really work story wise), and free roaming (which no one has taken on full time yet);  require both time and a considerable amount of effort. The upgrade system became a bit wonkier in FFVTTR so it even takes a bit of work to effectively suss that out and make it work correctly for the player. Also, as I've learned over the past few years, a great deal of players don't really pay attention to the story being told to them. They seem to just want to jump right into the action. That's kinda off-putting in my eyes, but I can't judge them for their play style, no?

Custom scripting, another thing that drains energy like an energy sapper. Technically, anything coded by the scripter is custom to a point, but custom attribute coding and such is always fun. I'm still amazed at some of the stuff Conduit has been able to pull off in his last 3 matrix games (which you all should try), but then again, the player may look at it once and forget it even exists once the game is done. I've done quite a few custom codes that no one has probably even noticed (they weren't all that spectacular, but they worked for me. :P) and the only satisfaction I get from it is knowing that my coding arsenal *cocks imaginary scripting gun* is expanding and improving with each mod I do even when I am too low on energy to even stare at code nonsense. :P

With that said,

I agree with most of the statements said here. The more custom stuff the modder is able to stuff into their mod to make it more of theirs and less of IG's is always grand and fun to me. I don't really expect anything on Dr. Mike's level so even the smallest of changes will probably catch my attention. Then again, I also know how much effort goes into the overall production of a mod so I might just appreciate it more. *shrugs* Food for thought, no?


[EDIT] I didn't mention anything about files sizes as it slipped my mind. Just to stay short, changing a lot of the FF art assets will most likely result in a large file size [especially if you have a bunch of skins, meshes, and custom music] meaning you're alienating some of your potential players who are still waddling along on dialup.

[C4]

which, if I can convince Prem it should be a mod and not an online graphic novel

It's a book dannit, tiobe. It's a freakin book and that's that.

Now I'm interested.  ^_^ which book?

As a modder, we want to offer new, fun, and unique things to the players for them to enjoy over and over again, but, the typical player doesn't know how much work it takes to even give them a simple one mission mod or even a "Freedom force...but with marvel characters!" mod (more appropriately known as a conversion mod)

This is in fact very true, only a modder could ever know just how true.

Still not to place a damper on the thread I am in fact looking for what will place you on FF heaven? Not that all of it will be achievable but some of it might. 

I didn't mention anything about files sizes as it slipped my mind. Just to stay short, changing a lot of the FF art assets will most likely result in a large file size [especially if you have a bunch of skins, meshes, and custom music] meaning you're alienating some of your potential players who are still waddling along on dialup.

Yip, replacing textures of maps is a huge file increase but I am going to settle for a full .exe file plus a 30mb break up, that should keep the dial up guys happy.

[USAgent]

What my dream Mod would be wouldn't exactly be a whole new mod with new stories and missions per say, but I would love the ability to simply replace existing characters in mods with my custom ones (hero files and M25AI files), something that would be a simple easy and fast copy and paste/drag and drop/clickity click interface that would allow you to replace character "A" with character "B" through out the story.
Its already kinda possible with the EZscripts and the Free roam mod, but it still requires some py file editing and there is nothing worse than playing along a mission and a big error files shows up on screen causing me to try and track down where i missed a comma or spelled something wrong.

[HumanTon]

There's three basic types of mods--story-based ones with particular characters, which are most of the mods that have been done so far, freeroam mods like M25's, and rumble-room mods like Benton's or the X-Men Danger Room from a while back.

Like detourne_me what I'd most like to see is an all-out freeroam mod where I can explore the city (or the world, now we have Goggles' Map Pack to work with), get a bunch of mini-quests, level up a custom guy (or guys) from zero to hero, and meet a lot of interesting bad guys along the way.

I'd also like to see more mini-mod EZScripts like Benton and I have been doing--while huge mods are great, it's also fun to just sit down and play a few quick encounters. And if you set it up so that you can pick the heroes and villains yourself (as you can in my Base Invasion script, plug plug plug) then those EZScripts can be used as an alternative to normal Rumble Room matchups, which get a bit predictable.

Regardless of what kind of mod it is, here are some things I like to see in a mod:

--Characters that make full use of the power system, FFX, and M25AI. It's way more interesting to fight opponents with Living Laser, or Adaptive, or Urban Puppet Master than another bunch of guys who just hit hard or just shoot guns. It's easier to do this with original characters, but it can work with established characters, too--after all, most FFX attributes have their root in some established character. A great example of this was in The Great Hunt, where you had to keep Martian Manhunter away from the Human Torch because the Torch would trigger J'onn's Vulnerability attribute.

--Variety. Mix in some new thugs you created with the Irrational ones. Use some different maps (again the Map Pack is a big asset here.) Interpret a famous character's powers differently than other modders have done (Iron Man had roller skates once--give him Sprint!) Etc. etc.

--Mission goals that are different than "whack everyone on the level."

--Weirdness. You could always count on Dr. Mike's mods, for example, to include something that was just totally off the wall.

--Use characters and setting we haven't seen a lot in mods before. How about a Thor mod, for example? There are plenty of meshes out there for one. Or a West Coast Avengers mod? Or a Doom Patrol mod? One of my favorite mods is Suicide Squad--even though I knew nothng about those characters, it was fun to learn about 'em!

[Previsionary]

Personally, I'd like to see more mods that aren't based on big named heroes in the comic universes. Thor, GL, Gravity, and such have crossed my mind and I always ignored them since I didn't have the interest to actually research them for stories and FFVTTR was seriously lacking in maps back then. It's probably the main reason I chose Exiles as it had a slightly different premise (that I didn't fully execute as I based it off of current exiles which lost its premise in a way and I didn't have the patience to code it all out).

One of the reasons I liked wickerman's metal storm mod was because he created his own team and situations and didn't base it off of Marvel or DC. However, I do grow tired of the "beat this person to get this boss to show up to win this mission" which is why I *tried* changing up a few things from mod to mod. Many of you probably remember the "collect the chickens" in JLU or the "protect the building"/"knocked the stunned foe into a portal before he revives"/"escort and protect this person" missions from Heroes or even "get pass the infinitely spawning military men" (which expanded to, "close the portal before the infinitely spawning warhounds get you") or even the "avoid the ray guns while accomplishing your goal" missions from UXM, Exiles, and Spider-man. However, those can only offer so much to alter up gameplay. FF is still a game designed for fighting and even the Matrix mods revolved around constantly fighting with some neat things thrown in between. This isn't really a problem with NWN as it's much broader in the things you can do and it accepts way more coding hooks than our fair little game can handle. So ultimately, a good story is the thing that keeps me hooked.

With all that said, c4, from the things we (used loosely) discussed over various threads, I think your mod will be truly awesome. I really want to get around to testing it, but fate just won't let me. She's very spiteful, you see.

Oh oh, I'd love for more super natural mods actually. Yes, I did a 180, but this idea just came back into my mind. I actually wanted to do a supernatural mod involving a custom character which later became a mod based on Blade involving vampires, werewolves, witches, and a giant tornado boss. Yes...c4, do it for me. Then...then I can die happy. Of course, you'd need to add TMNT.

[yell0w_lantern]

Interesting characterization and dialogue such as the old Giffen-era Justice League.

[Volsung]

My two cents...

Avoiding famous specific universe at all cost... They got huge constraints in terms of storytelling, heroes and villains skills...
Imagination can freeroam without those kind of narrative/gameplay chains

[style]

I would like a mod with specific comic story lines like, The Phoenix Saga, Avengers Disassemble, Kree Skrull Wars, Infinity Gauntlet, Marvel vs. Dc, Civil War, Crisis on Infinite Earth....etc.

[wickerman]

I'm a story person first and foremost.  The main reason I liked Strangers was not all the custom scripting (which was outstanding, don;t get me wrong) - it was the original team and the storylines. 

Upgradeable characters is big w/ me too.  One reason I shy away from [insert you favorite mainstreamer here] Mods is because there is no where to go with the character unless you make a mod that works as an origin story.

Mission variety is big too.  This can be taken to the extreme I think, but as long as things at least feel like the mod maker is doing something different, it tends to hold my interest.  I think one of the weaknesses of he Metal Storm mod was that the first 4 or 5 missions left some people looking for a straight-up brawl after all the little 'extra' crap you had to do to beat the missions.  I should have spaced things out a little better.

I am pretty sick of DC/Marvel/etc mods myself.  some of them are very well done, but there is a finite amount of times I can play as Bats or Spidey without getting sick of it.

[Gremlin]

-Unique powersets.  Characters, especially villains, with weird, unique powers we don't see often, not only just bizarre powers but strange combinations of powers.  One of my favorite tricks for new villains is to just generate two or three random powers, find a strange way to link them thematically, and expand on that powerset.  It makes for really interesting characters to say the least.

-New characters!  I love custom heroes.  They're so much more interesting (usually) than mainstream Marvel or DC characters.  Not only power wise, as above, but also interesting characters.

-Innovative, interesting stories.  Much more important than replayability, for me at least.  I don't mind going through a mod only once if I have a blast doing it, and the key to that is through a fun, complex storyline.

[Lunarman]

A really different feel to the original game is what I love.

the strangers was fantastic because things happened in it that you didn't see in FF. The characters were crazy, but all worked in some way. There was loads of custom scipting and a good storyline. The only thing in my mind that lets strangers down is the skinning, but then I understand it's from a time before time ;)

I like original characters, with funky powers and a good set of missions. I just want things to be epic! Fighting a boss battle on a pirate ship is cool ;)

[C4]

Having a bit of RPG in terms of your characters upgrade-able powers is nice too. Will they pick the melees or the ranged powers if they can't afford both in the time the campaign takes?

This is an interesting point. I was always irritated when I could not buy all the powers in FF but never thought of it as choosing one over the other.

more varied missions where you stop catastrophies from happening or save civilians from badguys

For interest sake has a catastrophy ever been done before?

something that would be a simple easy and fast copy and paste/drag and drop/clickity click interface that would allow you to replace character "A" with character "B" through out the story.

Well I don't see this as that much of a problem. I can add an optional patch where lets say "jake" is replaced with "hero_1" so this would allow you to play the missions with your own guys. You know as long as you don't thank me as Spud did you.

rumble-room mods like the X-Men Danger Room from a while back

I always wonder how much mileage people got from this? I always had this feeling that everyone just got it for all the content Ink, AA, C6, IPS, Gengoro & Mike put into it. Was never too sure if people really played it?

Oh oh, I'd love for more super natural mods actually. Yes, I did a 180, but this idea just came back into my mind. I actually wanted to do a supernatural mod involving a custom character which later became a mod based on Blade involving vampires, werewolves, witches, and a giant tornado boss. Yes...c4, do it for me. Then...then I can die happy. Of course, you'd need to add TMNT

Why did I mention TMNT.  :banghead:  :P  (super scripter vision  ;) )


It is interesting that

Interesting characterization and dialogue

I'm a story person first and foremost

this is generally most important.

Mission variety is big too

i think variety of game play and objectives is what you need to focus on

This close second and custom scripting being a bonus.

I think this thread is most helpful not only for me but other potential modders.  ^_^

[detourne_me]

more varied missions where you stop catastrophies from happening or save civilians from badguys

For interest sake has a catastrophy ever been done before?

rumble-room mods like the X-Men Danger Room from a while back

I always wonder how much mileage people got from this? I always had this feeling that everyone just got it for all the content Ink, AA, C6, IPS, Gengoro & Mike put into it. Was never too sure if people really played it?

C4, I think you probly got the closest to catastrophe's with your XDR mod.   the traps in the savage land, the mass panic from the downtown brotherhood attack, etc.
and honestly, its my favourite mod of all.  i think at one point I even imported Kuertee's sKx mod into it,  so i could make it a really big rumble room type mod.

see, i like making up the story in my mind, so i prefer sandbox type adventures.
maybe one day i'll put together my ultimate mod :blink:

[USAgent]

something that would be a simple easy and fast copy and paste/drag and drop/clickity click interface that would allow you to replace character "A" with character "B" through out the story.

Well I don't see this as that much of a problem. I can add an optional patch where lets say "jake" is replaced with "hero_1" so this would allow you to play the missions with your own guys. You know as long as you don't thank me as Spud did you.

That sounds great C4, but would this also allow you to switch out the villains and minions as well with our custom content, and how would the AI work?  Hopefully we would be able to use our M25 custom AI files that get generated with the generator.

 And about the Spud thing.....lets never speak of this again......

[wjlm]

Great topic  :thumbup:
I would like a Strikeforce Morituri type mod.  It would be interesting playing characters that die or become unusable after a random length of time.  Your team would constantly change, and you could always play new characters.  Of course, some of the characters would probably expire during the most critical part of the mission.  If the mod could randomly generate the replacement heroes, then the game experience would change each time you play it.

The best mod would allow a party of 6, instead of 4.  Unfortunately, that will never happen, but that would make the game perfect for me.

Thank you for all of your hard work in creating mods, meshes, and hero files.  This site is the best!!!!!

Thank you,
wjlm

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I take it you haven't played the Suicide Squad mod?

[GogglesPizanno]

I would like a Strikeforce Morituri type mod.

If the mod could randomly generate the replacement heroes, then the game experience would change each time you play it.

I toyed for a while with some methods of scripting dynamic random character creation in-game expressly for a Strikeforce Morituri Mod, but scripting and game limitations in how it handles certain Data made it limiting to the point that I couldn't really accomplish what I was trying to achieve so I scrapped it.

I still ponder on the idea on occasion. I would love to be able to have a script that generated a completely randomized character that then gets written to the DAT files. So each new campaign you started could seed a whole set of new bad guys and allies... kinda like those throw away issues of comic books with really stupid one off characters. 

Couple that with some randomized campaigns (which is possible to do), you could have a pretty nifty base for a MOD that is like a changing virtual comic book series each time you play.

[lmalonsof]

randomized campaigns (which is possible to do)

Very interesting... can you tell us something more about that?

[DrMike2000]

The tech used in my Patriot City free-roaming mod could be used to generate a random campaign.

In Patriot City, each time you went off the edge of the map by one of the "access points" it would fail the mission, and copy the next cityblock from a folder over the "mission1" folder, so that when you went to replay the mission, it was different!

So, for a random campaign you do the same. Each level ends by failing the mission, and you swap in the next mission from a set of folders over the top of the main mission folder just before, using Python's file access functions.

At the end of each mission you can decide which possible ones come next.

Thats the tech spiel.

In game design terms Ive never liked branching randomised campaigns over linear ones, and here's why.

Say the developer has time to make 20 missions. In a branching campaign, this means you can play through maybe 7 times with 5 missions each sometimes repeating missions youve done before, sometimes getting a new one. Evenetually, you hit that point where you've say played 18 of the 20 missions, but you dont know how to get the final two that may or may not even exist, and the whole thing kind of dwindles away, leaving you dissapointed.

In a linear campaign , you reach the end. You know you've had everything the designer made thrown at you, and can replay again if you like, with maybe new characters or perhaps a different choice here or there, or leave satisfied now.

I did a little bit of branching in Strangers - both Miss Amazing and Jack of Diamonds could be recruited or not, and the cutscenes varied depending on whether these characters died or lived, but ultimately it was kind of pointless. Maybe some die hards out there saw Miss Amazing die in the Fly's laboratory once, and stride out of the tube in another, and maybe even remembered that things had been different before, but big deal really. The main satisafaction probably came from me playing with the tech and getting it to work, thinking "tee hee, Im so clever!"
Wouldnt the world have been a better place if I'd just devoted all that effort to making another level?

What would I like to see in mods? No big surprise, but original characters. Captain Cockroach's Odd Squad will never quite leave my mind for this reason, long after the epic DC and Marvel efforts have faded away.

Oh, and I'd like someone else to write a love story in Freedom Force. That always gets me :)

[GogglesPizanno]

Oh, and I'd like someone else to write a love story in Freedom Force. That always gets me.

Ya Big Softy.

In game design terms Ive never liked branching randomised campaigns over linear ones

To clarify, I agree with you for the most part (though for different reasons) I always thought that randomized campaigns would be sort of like dynamic filler (hence my original comic book analogy). So it would be a way to spice up a campaign. So for example you had a 10 mission scripted story. You could insert 5 missions of randomly generated content kinda like break points in between story arcs. They would always be different, but still didn't break up a campaign.

And while Drmike has the nice clean great high tech example of dynamic campaigns, mine was more uh... low tech using EZ Script.

Its all based on the idea of a mission pool, a map pool, and a villain ally pool. Basically at the start of the game, it would randomly choose a base map, game map and an EZScript mission template from a library, copy them to the appropriate mission folders, then go through and swap out wildcard values in the EZScript templates for actual characters, objects and dialogue. I'm still trying to refine ways to have a library of story arcs and recurring villains, but the process for actually creating a mission by moving files around and processing the content works at this point (mostly)... :P

[lmalonsof]

Goggles, this would be far beyond my wildest dream... if you need help please let me know about it, I am more than interested in a random campaign generator based on EZscript.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Yeah, googles and I were discussing this earlier, although I disagree with DrMike as to the method, as I think there's a much simpler way of accomplishing this.