Wishing there was more WoW in CoH...

[RTTingle]

So out of curiosity, I played World of Warcraft for a few weeks...

... and fell in love with fishing.

Of all the darn stupidest things to do in the game... it was what I enjoyed the most.

Anyways...

... I really fancied the skills and crafting system it has and how it seemed to work so well applied to the game and what you could do with it.  It made me wish the developers had done so much more with the invention system.  The simplicity of the invention system is what kinda' makes it boring for me, how anybody can craft anything.  There was no specialization, so to speak.  At first I thought it was a plus but the more I played WoW and its system, the more I wished a system like theirs could be applied to CoH.

So for the last few weeks I've been wondering about specifics of the system if it was applied to CoH.  Certain mobs having certain drops that if you had certain skills could be applied to crafting certain things.  I even started scribbling out how I thought a system could work, using what we have of inventions already and expanding on it.  I had a general idea before --- but seeing how WoW did it really helped refine the ideas I had bouncing around in my mind.

Is that wrong Spud?  Have I sold my soul to WoW?

Chances are zero that CoH will do anything to update the Invention system or introduce skills, so my hope are riding on CO to see something like this.

RTT

[captainspud]

I think the majority of the CoH community would be pretty hostile to a WoW-like drop system. It's a pretty blatant time-sink, and it would burn up a lot of the good faith NC's picked up these past few months.

WoW's systems work because they're a part of a larger whole that's intended to contain them. Shoehorning WoW features into CoH without making the necessary (and significant) changes to CoH's core gameplay to accommodate them would be disastrous.

A proper skills system could be done in CoH2, but I just don't see any way to put it into CoH1 without altering it to a degree where it's just not the same game anymore.

[GhostMachine]

When I played WoW I fished a lot, too, so I can understand the attraction. In fact, tradeskills are one of the few things about WoW that I miss.

[ThePrelate]

part of the beauty of CoH/V is it is not that much like WoW. I love WoW, but it is a time sink beyond all time sinks.

[RTTingle]

I think the majority of the CoH community would be pretty hostile to a WoW-like drop system. It's a pretty blatant time-sink, and it would burn up a lot of the good faith NC's picked up these past few months.

I like to think of it more as depth than a timesink.  If you're talking about the ultra rare drops of super items on once in a blue moon bosses to be camped, I can understand that.  I was thinking more how certain common mobs had certain common items.  For example your average street thugs.  You occasionally save the mugging victim or purse snatching.  I was thinking, lets take it a step further.  Like how WoW has certain critters that can be skinned for those who can skin and be leatherworkers.  Sure, while skinning a mugger would be fun - its not exactly appropriate.  ;)

So say your hero has the detective skill set.  He roughs up a few thugs on the street and decides to use his evidence search skill on the defeated fellow.  He finds a handgun, counterfeit money and some superdine drug paraphernalia.  Off to Paragon Police HQ he goes to turn in the stuff.  He turns in the handgun, money and superdine.  Guns, market money, and superdine off the street!  Your reward?  Merit with the PPD that can be exchanged for whatever else or to improve certain detective skills.  Just like Rikti and Vanguard merits.

Here's the kicker.  Think of how this would add to feeling more villain-like in CoV.  Not feeling as slimy as a snake as you should be feeling?  Sure you stomped on a few street thugs lower than you.  Big deal.  You took their toys and goods and left in the alleys to rot.  Now what?  Noy much of a haul.  Hey!  Remember what you heard, by the docks they're always looking for goods to take to Paragon City.  Sell a gun, make a buck.  You certainly can't deal Superdine yourself --- not your thing, but no reason why you can't give it to some else to sell, for a buck of course.

WoW's systems work because they're a part of a larger whole that's intended to contain them. Shoehorning WoW features into CoH without making the necessary (and significant) changes to CoH's core gameplay to accommodate them would be disastrous.

Agreed, WoW pretty much started with it and it seams into the game beautifully.  I think it can be shoe horned in a little bit easier now, especially seeing the Rikti and Vanguard merits system and working aound that.  I don't see them going over and changing the whole system to be like that though.  Sadly, I don't think we're going to see COH2, just constant improvements over the original... but not much to update its current systems in place already.  We may see some implementation to a smaller degree --- but you'll have to be in new or revised zones with the appropriate villains for it to work.  :( Thats why I'm hoping to see this in some degree in CO from the start.

A proper skills system could be done in CoH2, but I just don't see any way to put it into CoH1 without altering it to a degree where it's just not the same game anymore.

I agree - no way can it be put into CoH1 without a major overhaul.  But CoH2?  Maybe, maybe not.  Not being the same game though?  That could be a good thing too.  Like I said, think of it as depth.  I found it very interesting I could pretty much play a normal villager almost, with the occasional encounter and go hunting and fishing all day if I wanted to.  Thats the key.  It wouldn't be necessary to do these things, like Inventions isn't necessary... but man --- it adds a lot of depth.  Something as simple as skills added to something as lame as street hunting and missions almost made it seem fun for me.  I don't see it as something that changes the way the game can be played, but adds to how you can play it.

I think the key is too keep the idea in CoH its just something else you can do --- and not something you have to do.

When I played WoW I fished a lot, too, so I can understand the attraction. In fact, tradeskills are one of the few things about WoW that I miss.

I think fishing was the exception of them all and not the rule.  I liked how random it was that you could find the occasional silly or interesting item by fishing.  You certainly can't do that with all skills, but they took something that sounded mundane and made it a bit more.  I'm not sure what skill you can do that with in a hero based game.

What I really found spiffy was the random dropping of items that would start quests.  I'd really love to see something like that in CoH.  For example, you save a purse snatching victim and find out it's a little bit more than you expected.  She works for some small lab, has a secret formula --- whatever and off starts the new quest.

part of the beauty of CoH/V is it is not that much like WoW. I love WoW, but it is a time sink beyond all time sinks.

I'm starting to question what I think is a timesink compared to what other people think is a timesink and its making me curious.  Prelate - whats the worst timesink in WoW to you?  In comparison - what do else do you find is a timesink, but acceptable?

RTT

[Alaric]

What I really found spiffy was the random dropping of items that would start quests.  I'd really love to see something like that in CoH.  For example, you save a purse snatching victim and find out it's a little bit more than you expected.  She works for some small lab, has a secret formula --- whatever and off starts the new quest.

I've always thought you should be able to open new contacts from time to time by rescuing mugging victims. "Thanks for saving me! By the way, I've got another problem you might be able to help me with..."

When I first started palying, I was disapointed that it didn't work that way. Seemed like an obvious way to make street encounters more interesting.

[GrizzlyBearTalon]

Isn't COX adding in a partial time sink/depth this next patch in a way? Something about unlocking roman themed armor pieces for toons doing missions from a time traveling faciton or something? That is one wowlike feature being added in, factions that actually give you useful or nice stuff.

[Alaric]

Isn't COX adding in a partial time sink/depth this next patch in a way? Something about unlocking roman themed armor pieces for toons doing missions from a time traveling faciton or something? That is one wowlike feature being added in, factions that actually give you useful or nice stuff.

It's not really all that different from what you can already do with Vanguard in the Rikti War Zone.

[MJB]

It's my understanding that you unlock the roman pieces by doing a Task Force. I could be wrong though.

-MJB

[Verfall]

I'm starting to question what I think is a timesink compared to what other people think is a timesink and its making me curious.  Prelate - whats the worst timesink in WoW to you?  In comparison - what do else do you find is a timesink, but acceptable?

My opinion on this is simple; everything in any MMO is a time sink. Every aspect is designed to try to make you spend as much money as possible to achieve any given goal. It's the player, however, who determines whether it's a time sink to them. Some see level grinding as a time sink, some see any form of crafting as a time sink. Whichever one amuses you will obviously not be labelled as such.

[El Condor]

My opinion on this is simple; everything in any MMO is a time sink.

Yes - to tag on to Ver's comment, "time sink" could be used neutrally (something that takes a lot of time), but it sounds as though we're defining the term here mostly as a negative: as code for "that which steals disproportionately large amounts of time from what I'd rather be doing in-game or in real life".  On those terms, if time spent fishing and developing specified skills is fun and rewarding, then it's depth.  If it's just a way to power up your character when you'd rather be adventuring and fighting, then it's a time sink. 

IMO, much of the player base comes to CoX because they enjoy the hero vs. villain concept and want to spend time playing it out rather than give up the hours for side-tasks meant to uber up their toons.  IOs have brought a bit of that element for players seeking more, but the game still remains far less l33t-ish than WoW.  That's probably a big reason as to why many of the faithful continue to play after four years.

EC

[GhostMachine]

Just about every MMO is a time sink, and grinding xp is a given. However, WoW is a MAJOR time sink nand makes CoX look like a piker as far as that is concerned. Unless things have changed since I quit playing WoW (a few months before Burning Crusade came out), and from the looks of things they haven't, once you get to a certain level range in WoW, you pretty much have to do raids to get some of the best equipment in the game. When I quit, I was doing Molten Core and ZG raids on a weekly basis, and I had almost the complete Giantstalker armor set when I quit. Before that, I had been hitting certain dungeons and other zones regularly just to get the Beaststalker armor, and I never did get the complete set (the pants never dropped off the mob that has them on its loot table).

The closest comparison to WoW and CoX time sink wise, would be tokens. CoH has the Vanguard Merits, while certain WoW factions, like Argent Dawn, also have token turn-ins for loot. However, the # needed for turn-in for most of the good items in WoW is outrageous.

[GrizzlyBearTalon]

Just about every MMO is a time sink, and grinding xp is a given. However, WoW is a MAJOR time sink nand makes CoX look like a piker as far as that is concerned. Unless things have changed since I quit playing WoW (a few months before Burning Crusade came out), and from the looks of things they haven't, once you get to a certain level range in WoW, you pretty much have to do raids to get some of the best equipment in the game. When I quit, I was doing Molten Core and ZG raids on a weekly basis, and I had almost the complete Giantstalker armor set when I quit. Before that, I had been hitting certain dungeons and other zones regularly just to get the Beaststalker armor, and I never did get the complete set (the pants never dropped off the mob that has them on its loot table).

The closest comparison to WoW and CoX time sink wise, would be tokens. CoH has the Vanguard Merits, while certain WoW factions, like Argent Dawn, also have token turn-ins for loot. However, the # needed for turn-in for most of the good items in WoW is outrageous.

Actually a lot of that has changed in scale & difficulty quite a bit. At this point in the game leveling has been sped up pre-60 to an incredible extent. Blizzard realized all of its content focus was high level content so why not make people get there faster? So they did, and once you hit 60 it slows down again.

Factions are now set up like this you get rep from killing certain mobs in each zone (usually each zone has a faction associated with it), doing quests for that faction (which are actually 50 - 75%+ of that zones quests anyways), some turn ins but these are items that drop from monsters you'll be killing to level or do quests anyways, and lastly running instances. Basically while leveling through a zone and questing you will hit honored with a faction and if you actually run a a few instances you will probably be revered without actually going out of your way to do any of this. Getting exalted takes a small amount of extra effort it might take a couple of sessions of play or so whereas before it might have taken several weeks to a couple months before Burning Crusade. Factions also unlock access to Heroic Difficulty versions of instances available in that zone, heroic dungeons/instances are scaled up to max level versions of lower level dungeons where regular monsters are of course more powerful and bosses often get entirely new abilities as well. These keys are rewarded at the honored level.

Faction rewards also start getting pretty nice around honored/revered most exalted rewards are usually tailored to appeal to certain classes depending on the faction. So that most classes would probably only want to be exalted with just a select few factions anyways if any.

Gear now has several sources that it can be obtained from in comparison to the raid or die philosophy Pre-BC. Gear itself and mind you not crappy useless gear like before is obtainable from Arena (instanced small scale group combat between two teams 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5), Battlegrounds (instanced pvp), instances (normal instances for starter gear and heroics for higher end), crafting (some of the crafted gear is on par with even the best gear from PVE or PVP), heroic badge vendors (badges awarded for killing bosses in heroic dungeons), rep rewards from various factions and of course raiding. Which basically amounts to a choice between PVP or PVE with a few extra pieces obtainable here & there. A lot of people anymore will focus on one or the other but might use the alternative choice to fill in gaps where they have weaker gear.