Heroes Season 3

[House Quake]

[spoiler]Technically regeneration isn't Peter's power.  You stop his ability to 'mimic' you stop everything with him.  The Haitian seams to suppress active usage of abilities by some form of broadcast mental manipulation. Even though the powers are suppressed... any previous physiological benefits of the power would remain.

And if that don't make sense... ehhh... its sci-fi... not sci-fact... just roll with it.

I'm more interested in identifying the four faces the precog had painted as the villains.  Petrilli is obvious... the fear guy and the other convict speedy freed are pretty clear too....... but who was the guy on the upper right?[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]But, if Peter's healing (meaning, indirectly, Claire's) worked like Adam's, then the Haitian stopping it from functioning by any means would have undone the healing as it undid the healing of Adam's aging.

Just another case to consider: When Claire's healing ability was temporarily disabled by that branch in her brain, all of the healing from her other injuries (jumping off of high scaffoldings, etc.) wasn't undone. Ditto for Peter when he had that glass in his head, though I don't recall how extensive his other accumulated healed injuries had been at that point. But Claire had definitely sustained injuries that would be immediately apparent and we didn't see them.

Meanwhile, HRG was brought back from the dead when Claire's blood healed his injuries* I assume that the healing was only active for a short period after the transfusion; in other words, he doesn't still have a healing power. But, if the effects of past healing go away when the power is turned off, then he should be dead again without continuing transfusions.

(*The "healing blood" is another odd thing. If the power to heal is in her blood, then why do certain brain injuries stop her from healing? If she donates some blood and then takes another stick through the skull, would her blood still heal someone else while she was out? And, assuming it would, then why wouldn't it heal her? I suppose her blood could activate the recipient's brain in a way that causes them to heal. That way, only recipients with uninjured brains would heal. Though, even that is sorta weak considering HRG died of a bullet to the head...)

Of course, there's no proof that Adam's power works the same way Claire's does. But, I really don't like the idea that his healing was some sort of weird temporal power that was actively reversing the effects of all the damage he had accumulated over his life. As little as it appeals to me, I would much prefer that Poptrelli's power is what I originally thought: He can steal powers by touch, but he can also go further and steal general life force if he wants and that's what he chose to do with Adam (for whatever reason) and why he left Peter alive. Honestly, even though I think they really went with a screwy healing model, I am leaving the alternate Poptrelli theory on the table unless the show gives more definitive info.[/spoiler]

[House Quake]

 :blink:  [spoiler]Stumpy.... I suggest to just roll with it.  No show will ever give you absolute and scientific explanation for all things which are impossible as we know them.  That limits the writers ability to develop the characters.  Its kinda how when Marvel made the mistake of saying 'x' character can lift 'y' amount.... then every time a writer made character ''x' exceed 'y' amount for story purposes... readers complained. 

Most things are done for dramatic effect over scientific reason.  All that can be done is to speculate and even then you're probably thinking more about the hows and whys than the writers them selves.  Almost every power on the show can be dissected and nit picked to death if you try to apply sci-fact to how they work.

It really doesn't matter to much how and why... but for dramatic effect it was cool to see adam get sucked dry... instantly age and turn to dust[/spoiler]

[thalaw2]

[spoiler]I have to agree with Stumpy.  The "dramatic effect" isn't enough to hide the whole healing thing for me.  It stops us from putting rules into the universe that the story operates in if the logic is inconsistent.  Having consistent rules in the universe a writer creates is what makes the story interesting.  If you don't believe me then read some Shakespeare..hehe.[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Yeah I'm not happy they just killed Adam like that. Seemed like a waste and a tease. Plus instead of this confusing rapid aging thing, couldn't they have just shot him? That'd show that his powers are gone, killed him off, and then you can still show Papa Petrelli heal. Same result less fuss. [/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]Once again, thalaw2 makes my point.

HQ, I certainly don't expect any kind of scientific purity from my sci-fi shows. I can live with Elle being able to direct arcs of electricity through the air, her father being able to add mass to the universe, etc. My baseline assumption for watching a show like this is that such things are possible.

But, it does bug me a little when things aren't consistent even within the show. Part of the fun of a show featuring super powers is figuring out what the powers are doing. Regeneration isn't such a wild leap, since humans already heal and plenty of animals do it to a greater extent than we do. All Claire and Adam (and Linderman) add to the concept is speed, which is fine.

And, I can handle the idea that Adam's regen works differently than Claire's, if it worked in some way that made sense. And, I don't mean real, scientific sense. I just mean, sort of pseudo-scientific common sense so that we can have the fun of knowing what's going on. If Adam turns to dust when his power is disabled, that seems to mean that his power works differently than Claire's, but it also has some weird implications mentioned before that I don't think fit very well within the show's internal scheme. I agree that there will be some of that by necessity, but here I suspect that they did it just to use a special effect which muddied the water, instead of just killing (now mortal) Adam in any of a thousand ways.

Then again, it's also possible that Poptrelli did something different, as I speculated last time. The show hasn't really ruled that out, though I'm not taking any bets on it. I think that sort of speculation is part of the fun of discussing the episodes.

Anyway, I mentioned at the outset that this was a nitpick. I generally enjoyed the episode. When I was watching, I spent a lot more time being amused by Hiro's antics and thinking about who the other two Big Bads are than worrying about the nature of Adam's demise. I just mentioned it here to see what other people's thoughts are because I enjoy the discussion about that stuff and someone may have an interesting explanation or theory about it.[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Part of the problem here, I think, is that the show was so unusually consistent in its first season that even small inconsistencies now just rub certain people who grew to like that they wrong way.

[Jakew]

I gave up trying to qualify the "logic" of the powers as soon as they introduced a character who gets stronger by "absorbing fear".  :rolleyes: So, I can accept Adam.

The writers are obviously playing fast and loose for the sake of the story. Which isn't a bad thing (Season Three has been an improvement on a few fronts, not the least Sylar actually being an interesting, multi-dimensional character), but I really liked the seeming "reality" and quasi-science of the first season, as opposed to the show becoming even more heavily comic-inspired.

Still enjoying the show, though  :D

[House Quake]

[spoiler]I do understand that you said you were nit picking and all... but when you say...

"I can handle the idea that Adam's regen works differently than Claire's, if it worked in some way that made sense. And, I don't mean real, scientific sense. I just mean, sort of pseudo-scientific common sense so that we can have the fun of knowing what's going on."

The fun isn't always in the knowing but in the mystery of guessing. I don't think they will ever get into concrete explanations that make sense.  At least not to every one.  I really feel  the vast majority of those who watch the show don't go into the how and whys so much as they do the end effects.  Sometimes powers are not going to make sense to any one but the person who created the character in the first place.  This is a very 'comic book' way of doing powers.  As soon as you think you know how a chars powers work... the writer throws a new wrinkle in.   In this particular instance, I've seen many... MANY... examples through other sci-fi and comics where someone 'immortal' suddenly loses the ability that was keeping them alive.   The suddenly age to dust thing is not new.  I guess that is why I instantly assumed that he swiped his power and then dust to dust... and just left it at that.

How Adam's and Claire's powers work have been total speculation to this point... is it regeneration?  is it immortality?  Is it something else...?  We already know that powers on the show are not limited to just the mental and physiological manifestations... they delve into time, space and extra dimensional as well.   We also know that a lot of people have secondary powers or their powers haven't developed to their full manifestations yet.  In this case, while both of their blood obviously have healing properties... the blood and even their own healing are likely just secondary effects of greater power yet undefined.  Furthermore... how they actually heal is very up in the air.  Remember... Claire's blood didn't just heal.... it resurrected HRG.  This season Claire's powers have obviously advanced in some way.  She no longer feels pain for instance.  Sylar eluded to the fact he couldn't kill her if he tried.  Mom Petrelli knows Sylar can't be killed because he has her powers.  HRG has said he needs to figure out how to kill Sylar.  My guess is this knowledge comes from dealing with Adam.  Also Mom made it an issue to get Adam in the first place... thus in spite of appearances... I'm not certain we've seen the last of him. 

Another point is instead of focusing on Adam... why not Pops Petrelli.  We are even less sure of the exact nature of his powers.  He obviously is some sort of power or life force leech.  He may have the ability to simply... take what he needs and if he takes everything... dust is all that would remain.  He may well have known that Adam would be a treat so he sucked him ... dry... like dust dry.  Because I'm sure he knew that he only needed his blood to heal.  But Peter is his son still... and thus he just sucked enough to absorb the powers... not enough to kill him.  It looked painful.  And I don't believe that his transfer is permanent.  I would think that a person like him would not have been layed up with the potential for powers he may have had through out the years.

Also Petrilli didn't mind force Adam to grab his hand.  He gave him some sort of mental impression that made him scarred (like I'm about to suck you dry)... a powered up fearboy grabbed Adam and forced him to Petrelli and he then grabbed Adams wrist.

I can say that they have been consistently inconsistent.

Daphne is another curiosity.  When Hiro tried to time freeze her before... all he did was slow her up.   This time he was able to actually freeze her while he made preparations for their charade.  Of course some one who buys a trick sword will get a rude surprise.  Also Daphne must be able to transfer speed as well... seeing as I don't think she could carry the guy she freed on her back... and they both speed out of there.

And how in the heck did they manage to keep people prisoner in Section 5 so long...?  It looks like a pretty easy place to get in and out of.[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]
I think we agree on quite a bit of this.

The fun isn't always in the knowing but in the mystery of guessing.

It's in both, IMO. The guessing is fun in coming up with a theory of how something works based on observations from the show. Just like in real life, nothing is 100%; when you have a theory that seems to consistently explain what you are seeing, you call that knowledge, but it's always subject to revision if it doesn't explain new observations. The problem is when new observations seem to require too much of a wacky theory to explain them.

For instance, the operating theory for Claire's power has been pretty straightforward. She heals like many animals do, only to a greater extent and very fast. The coming-back-from-the-dead thing seems sorta out there at first, but it's not so much of a stretch when you consider that the cellular decay that keeps things dead in the real world doesn't really apply to her because of her power.

I think most of us were using that same theory to explain Adam. But, if he disintegrated because his healing was gone, then now they writers seem to be saying that all the damage he had taken over the years (and aging is just damage) was somehow still hanging around him and waiting for his power to fail. To me, that seems more magical than pseudo-scientific and magic-based super powers aren't really the premise of the show. That's why I prefer the idea that what happened to him is more an artifact of what Poptrelli can do than of Adam's healing power just being gone.

In this particular instance, I've seen many... MANY... examples through other sci-fi and comics where someone 'immortal' suddenly loses the ability that was keeping them alive.   The suddenly age to dust thing is not new.  I guess that is why I instantly assumed that he swiped his power and then dust to dust... and just left it at that.

It's very common in magical characters or in stories where rapid aging takes place because a lot of time is passing for that character at once. It's not really common for characters with genetically accelerated healing.

Another point is instead of focusing on Adam... why not Pops Petrelli.  We are even less sure of the exact nature of his powers.  He obviously is some sort of power or life force leech.  He may have the ability to simply... take what he needs and if he takes everything... dust is all that would remain.  He may well have known that Adam would be a treat so he sucked him ... dry... like dust dry.  Because I'm sure he knew that he only needed his blood to heal.  But Peter is his son still... and thus he just sucked enough to absorb the powers... not enough to kill him.

I think we are on exactly the same page there. :)  To wit,

I would much prefer that Poptrelli's power is what I originally thought: He can steal powers by touch, but he can also go further and steal general life force if he wants and that's what he chose to do with Adam (for whatever reason) and why he left Peter alive.

BTW, I am sort of interested if they are consistent with Claire's not-feeling-pain bit. It seemed like a convenient accessory to her emotional storyline. I have a feeling that they will bring back a pain reaction to some injuries because it looks weird on camera to see someone get hurt and have no reaction to it. And, let's face it, despite what she said, she never really felt that much pain anyway, otherwise she wouldn't have been throwing herself off of buildings, cutting off her own toe, or smiling as she walks out of a house with severe radiation burns on her face.


Good point that apparently Hiro can now stop time completely enough to fool even Daphne. Or, possibly, she isn't always in super speed mode as she was when they first met. Maybe she has to have her power "turned on" to be able to interact with Hiro's "ultra slow-mo" time stoppage.

And, I forgot already where Daphne moved someone else at super speed. When was that?


Good point on the "security" on Level 5. At one point, I thought that Primatech had some device or whatever that created sort of a "Haitian Effect" by nulling the powers of the prisoners. It seemed like in season one we saw prisoners unable to use their powers even when they weren't doped up and when the Haitian wasn't (or didn't seem to be) nearby. But, now we have seen people in Level Five using their powers (notably Peter) and it wasn't during a power failure or anything like that. So I am not sure what is going on there, or what was supposed to be going on in season one.
[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

[spoiler]

Good point that apparently Hiro can now stop time completely enough to fool even Daphne. Or, possibly, she isn't always in super speed mode as she was when they first met. Maybe she has to have her power "turned on" to be able to interact with Hiro's "ultra slow-mo" time stoppage.

I will point out that even the scene where she broke the time freeze, Hiro still had her frozen at first, even her speed wake was frozen in time until she apparently noticed him moving around very fast and sped herself up to interact with him.  Hiro didn't have time frozen nearly that long this time so she likely didn't even notice.
[/spoiler]

[House Quake]

 [spoiler]

And, I forgot already where Daphne moved someone else at super speed. When was that?

When she goes to break out Sylar and he refuses to go... she zips into the cell to get the 'blue flame' throwing guy and 'they' speed away. 

I'm now wondering if her power is actually superspeed and she has the ability to 'lend' speed as well.  Or is it a variance of Hiro's power in that she isn't completely freezing time or teleporting instantly through time and space like Hiro can... but rather 'warping' time and space around herself and anyone she touches inside of that field to move outside normal space........... ie hyperspace or warp 1 Scotty.  I actually believe this is more the case since when they did interact the first time... she wasn't running... but rather standing there talking to hiro.

I know some people surmised that Hiro doesn't completely freeze time... but I think he still does .... with her warp field up... she was traveling out side of time space.  It was enough for Hiro to perceive her

All theory... but just more example of powers that make you go... hmmmm...???   :banghead: [/spoiler]

[thalaw2]

Hiro can freeze time, but there is time within time.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Well,

[spoiler]
Sylar seems wierdly inconsistent to me.  First he's completely devoted to Mom, then turns against her as soon as Dad tell him too.  Now there might be some evidence he showed him which might make that clear.

The part I can't get, though, is Sylar rushing in to save Peter only to try to kill Peter by tossing him out a window.  The scene between Sylar and Popa P. seems to indicate that it was Poppa who saved Peter.  I would rather Peter be right and it be the other way around as it would be at least more consistent.

This power stealing ability seems in some ways a convenient way for the writers to remove boxes they have/will write themself into.  Both Titans of the Heroes world on the same side?  Take his powers away and give them to a bad guy.  Need to get rid of Maya and end her storyline?  Have him take her powers.  Want to get rid of Adam after having built him up as unkill-able?  He's the solution to that too.  I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that he may have been given the power just for the convience of the writers.  On the other hand, on power collector being the father of the other two does seem to make a sort of sense.

Also, is Papa's story about Sylar really the truth?  I have my doubts, although it is at least plausable.

Why I like having a rival Company around, it seems like nearly everyone's going over to the new side.  I'd rather see a more or less even split.
[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Is it just me or are they wiping out all the season 2 characters? Bob Bishop, Parkman's dad, Adam. Got a bad feeling about Elle and Maya. [/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

[spoiler]
It looks like Maya's gone anyway.  She may not be dead, but she's out of the show.

Elle wasn't in the future group, so you may have a point there.

Also, I'm thinking Claire may have been saved from her dark future self in this ep.  Peter was brought there by a chain of events caused by time traveling, so his falling kept her from entering the building and joining Pinehearst.  It is very possible that future for her has already been changed.
[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Yeah but is Maya gone gone? She's on the main cast, seems odd to only use her (sparingly) in the first seven episodes.[/spoiler]

[thanoson]

Ok, got to see maybe 10 minutes of the  ending last night. Can someone do a summary of what happened last night?

[House Quake]

[spoiler]I don't buy for one bit that Sylar has 'turned' against Mom Petrelli so easily.  If one thing has been consistent about him and that is he is pretty bright and has shown the ability to fool people to gain their confidence.  I don't see any difference now.  And I'm reasonably certain Sylar did what he came to do.... save Peter.  But with Peter powerless and/or Gabriel's desire to control his hunger... he may want to hang around Arthur for ulterior reasons.

I also believe that we are seeing some people bite the bullet or lose powers... but ultimately a lot of what has happened may get erased.  Hiro's story seams to be flirting with the idea of him going back in time.  So a few of Arthur Petrelli's actions may ultimately get erased. [/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]I agree with HQ about Sylar and Poptrelli. I didn't see anything to indicate that it wasn't Sylar who saved Peter, although either one of them could have done it. But, Sylar is smart and he knows that Poptrelli has mind-reading ability via Peter, so Sylar should want to avoid looking suspicious and being found out. And, the dialogue between Sylar and Poptrelli after the fall already made it seem like Poptrelli was hinting that he knew Sylar saved Peter.

We don't know what the limits on Poptrelli are so far. Can he use more than one power at a time? Was he correct in that the powers he steals are necessarily gone for good? Can he steal powers like the Haitian's, which AFAIK Peter never picked up? Does he have all the abilities that Peter (and others) had or just the ones Peter exhibited in his presence? If he got all of them (including flight, mind-reading, and Hiro's powers), he really is pretty godlike at this point.

It's just and observation, but the existence of characters like Poptrelli, Peter, and Sylar really increases the value of someone like the Haitian.

The question I had last time remains, about how the level 5 prisoners are prevented from using their powers. And, there's a new wrinkle in that it apparently doesn't work on Sylar now, and maybe not on Momtrelli either, though it's tough to tell if it should have affected her, since she was dream projecting and not physically there.

I am really curious what hold Poptrelli has over Daphne. Why bother sending Mr. Fear to harass Matt and Daphne just to gain Matt's confidence? It seems like she already had it after she aborted the "hit" on him.[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Yeah the Haitian could be the game breaker here. Is his power always active or does he have to use it? I want to say it's always active. If so is it possible for Poptrelli or Peter to take his powers?[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

[spoiler]

Does he have all the abilities that Peter (and others) had or just the ones Peter exhibited in his presence?

He used telekinesis a couple of times this episode, which Peter did not use in his presence.  Besides, he wasn't using any of them when he hugged Poppa.  Also Poppa himself said he all of Peter's powers, at least that's the way I heard it.

Which leads to the question, if powers are based on blood chemistry, as Suresh said, then does that mean that the formula would restore Peter's original power?  I'm kind of surprised he didn't escape AFTER he was injected.

Yeah the Haitian could be the game breaker here. Is his power always active or does he have to use it? I want to say it's always active.

I don't know how official this is, but in his origin comic, he couldn't seem to shut it off even when it was causing several problems for his father.  Of course, he was a lot younger then.
[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]I think the Haitian's power is primarily passive. Back in season one, it was blocking Matt from reading minds when he and that fed (Clea DuVall) were stacking out Primatech and the Haitian didn't know Matt was there.

(A worthwhile note on that scene was that Matt was eventually able to penetrate the nulling power, at least a little...)

But, I guess that doesn't mean that the Haitian can't increase or focus the power deliberately, as he does his mind-wipe power.

Also, Claire's power has been shown to be passive (it heals her even when she isn't concentrating on it) and Peter absorbed that, so passive powers can be absorbed. And, we don't know that Poptrelli's power is limited in the same way that Peter's is.

I would think that it's sort of the nature of the Haitian's power that makes it unabsorbable, if it is. Sort of how you can't grab hold of a vacuum.[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]
I would think that it's sort of the nature of the Haitian's power that makes it unabsorbable, if it is. Sort of how you can't grab hold of a vacuum.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yeah I didn't mean to say that because he's power was active it couldn't be absorb. The Haitian neutralizes powers, and if it's always active then anyone who comes into range would lose their abilities. So Peter and Poptrelli shouldn't be able to absorb powers. And I would say Sylar wouldn't be able to either since he couldn't use his ability to understand their brain.

Also presumably the Haitian would be one of the few capable of killing anyone with one of those unbeatable healing factors (Claire, Adam, Sylar, Poptrelli, and Peter). Unless the healing power would just kick in once he left.

Actually mentioning the brain makes me wonder, what is the source of these powers? Is it blood brain, or what? I'm not too worried about it but it's just a curiosity. [/spoiler]

[Mystik]

[spoiler]
I would think that it's sort of the nature of the Haitian's power that makes it unabsorbable, if it is. Sort of how you can't grab hold of a vacuum.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yeah I didn't mean to say that because he's power was active it couldn't be absorb. The Haitian neutralizes powers, and if it's always active then anyone who comes into range would lose their abilities. So Peter and Poptrelli shouldn't be able to absorb powers. And I would say Sylar wouldn't be able to either since he couldn't use his ability to understand their brain.

Also presumably the Haitian would be one of the few capable of killing anyone with one of those unbeatable healing factors (Claire, Adam, Sylar, Poptrelli, and Peter). Unless the healing power would just kick in once he left.

Actually mentioning the brain makes me wonder, what is the source of these powers? Is it blood brain, or what? I'm not too worried about it but it's just a curiosity. [/spoiler]

I just tell myself that its the brain that tells the body how to produce superpowered blood

[House Quake]

[spoiler]think I mentioned it in a post before.  In season one... in the presence of he Haitian... Nathan flew away.  So I'm not inclined to think that hs power is passive at all or works all of the time.  He can definitely broadcast it as a general defense.. but he may be able to focus it so that it can effect only one person and turn it off totally if he wills it.  Not entirely sure.

The thing about Peter is that he seams to mimic both active and passive powers... but with the exception of a few powers which activated instinctively or were a little out of control when he first got them.... having the power does not mean he knows how to use the power.. or how to use it as well as the person he got it from.  Nor does it mean he even knows he has the power.  Seeing a person use the power in his presence of course helps him to access the power caiuse he knows what the nature of the power is.  For instance,  I'm sure he always had Sylars ability... but just never knew how to access it.

I am also sure he has the Haitians base ability... but he doesn't know it.  But even if he did.. he probably only has the Haitians ability at its rawest form.   IIRC they said the Haitians base ability when discovered as a child was the power to manipulate memories.  And like Parkman's for example his power likely grew.  

Another note on Arthur Petrelli... there is no evidence how and or when he gained TK.  And I think that it would be a very wise limit on him if he has to pretty much know what it is he is absorbing as far as the active powers go.  i'm pretty sure if he knew he had Matts telepathy, Hiro's time/space abilities along with  mom Petrelli's and Isaac's precognition....... he would use it!  As of right now.... he probably knows he took Peter's mimic powers and the power Peter displayed while in his presence..... but doesn't know what he has past that or how to access the powers.
[/spoiler]  

[The Hitman]

[spoiler]
Concerning The Haitian, I always considered it to be an active power, because of when Nathan flew away in Season 1.

Also, I'm of the opinion that the power suppression is an extension of his memory loss ability, like he makes the target's brain temporarily "forget" how to use the power. But that's neither here nor there.
[/spoiler]

[Talavar]

When Nathan flew away from the Haitian he may just have been out of range - we don't have firm evidence of how far is power extends or can extend out from him.

[thanoson]

But, he negated both Daphne and Hiro when he was coming to get the serum. He didn't even know they were there.

[MJB]

Perhaps this is just a case of the writers changing how things work 2 years later? I dunno.

-MJB