The Six Million Dollar Wrestling Thread

[Midnight]

We have the technology, we can make it stronger, faster, more resistant to forum crashes and disinterest... this is the generic wrestling thread, back from it's two year (?) hiatus. So what got me interested enough to talk again?

Friday, June 20th, Smackdown. Batista vs Chavo Guererro with Edge as the special guest referee. This is how a guest ref match should be done. All of the heels got heat. Okay, Chavo gets pretty much obliterated in the stand up match against Batista, but  he keeps his heat because he's not really in the same program. Edge gets heat for being the jerk ref. Bam Neeley (who!?) gets heat for interfering. Vickie gets heat for setting the whole thing up and sitting there while Batista gets destroyed.

What little offense Batista gets in is convincing, but mostly you feel bad for him because he's at the butt end of a 3 and 4 man squash. Granted I'm a bit of a Batista mark, but still, the whole thing went the way a good pre-PPV main event match is supposed to go. Build-build-build-build towards the climax in the PPV, leave all the heels with more heat and all the faces more over (or at least, as over as they started) as they were at the beginning of the match... honestly, it was one of the better booked matches I've seen since I started watching again a month ago.

It's one correct move (IMO) out of many missed steps, but it's something at least. What do you guys think?

[GhostMachine]

If anyone watched RAW, or at least saw the draft results, check the WWE website later today: there's a supplemental draft today at noon (EST, I assume, since they're based out of Conn).

I've read the Smackdown spoilers, and some of the wrestlers traded there make their first appearance while others traded to RAW show up to make farewell appearances, but....

[spoiler]Kennedy and Jeff Hardy won't be on Smackdown until next week. Kane and Matt Hardy are the only wrestlers being traded to other brands who actually wrestle, if I remember right.[/spoiler]

[Mr. Hamrick]

The supplemental draft is taking place now as to not affect the Smackdown tapings this week or ECW last night.  It won't affect the Night of Champions either with one possible exception.

Triple H's being traded to Smackdown was his idea, who'd have thunk it.

[thanoson]

I give him props. However, it's not for us he did it, but for the new baby. You know, spending time with steph and the kids. Smackdown will be interesting now.

[GhostMachine]

MARIA GOT DRAFTED TO SMACKDOWN!! AAAAARRRGH!!!

(The one non-wrestler trade I most didn't want to happen happened. :( )

[thanoson]

Ok, why not? She can join the other non wrestling divas for that belt and provide victims for Nattie. I never thought she was all that anyways. Are her and CM Punk still dating even?

[GhostMachine]

Ok, why not? She can join the other non wrestling divas for that belt and provide victims for Nattie. I never thought she was all that anyways. Are her and CM Punk still dating even?

Maria is the only non wrestling diva I find even halfway entertaining. She and CM Punk broke up several months ago.

[Midnight]

Wow, Night of Champions was one of the most oddly booked pay per views I've seen in a long time.

[thanoson]

Yeah, you would think this ppv would have fixed the problems of Raw having no heavyweight belt. And I'm not sure why HHH is going through his black man transformation. Seriously, is dark orange a natural color? For a good example of the difference go to you tube and check out Hunter Hearst Helmsley's debut match. By the way, I doubt he was even bigger than Jericho back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-6lcCCPJIM

[GhostMachine]

Any shred of prestige or credibility that the ECW title had left was promptly wiped away last night. I'm just glad the true lineage of the belt ended when the real ECW closed down. The only gold the World's Stongest Waste of Roster Space should hold is the defunct Hardcore championship or a tag belt, and I hope his reign is very short.

[Midnight]

Mm. Personal slander aside...

The WWE Tag Title match was pretty decent. Finlay is a good worker as is Morrison and Miz has made immense strides since I last saw him. He doesn't make me want to tear my eyes out anymore, which is a plus. I'm pretty shocked the whole "Hornswaggle" thing went on so long.

I thought it was fairly obvious that the ECW title wasn't going with Kane to Raw. It became even more obvious when Mark Henry got sent to ECW via the supplemental draft (not on TV!) and then got added to the ECW match. Oi. Anyway, I'm not a fan of big man matches, let alone with three in one ring.

The Ted DiBiase... "thing" wasn't built correctly from the start. I was completely uninterested in everyone involved.

Kofi Kingston going over was... bizarre, but great. It takes the IC title back to the mid-card, and sends Jericho back up to the top of the card. Who doubts that after he finishes his program with Michaels that he'll start working with Cena or Batista?

I'll give them this, going one way with both Championships was so definitely not what I was thinking they'd do. I was, hand to God, surprised at the end of that pay-per-view.

[GhostMachine]

The rumor is that the reason Batista was traded to RAW is because they want to build up a feud between him and Cena leading to match at the next `Mania. (Batista's apparently going to turn heel at some point) Jericho eventually feuding with one (or both) before the Batista-Cena feud would be a good idea.

Fully expected the heel turn by Cody Rhodes, but I did NOT expect it to happen during the actual match. I figured Ted DiBiase Jr would bring out a partner and win the match, then Cody would turn on Holly after the loss and join forces with them. I just don't hope they partner Deuce (who reportedly will be reverting to Jimmy Snuka Jr (he's Snuka's adopted son in real life)) with Holly to go up against DiBiase and Rhodes.

As for the ECW title, I was expecting Big Show to win it, beating Kane, then go into a feud with Mark Henry due to Henry claiming to be the #1 contender since he wasn't pinned. I didn't think they'd be insane enough to actually give him the title.

As for the two main titles, I don't see HHH dropping his belt anytime soon. I'd love it if CM Punk gave Edge a taste of his own medicine by cashing in the MITB contract and taking the gold back to RAW, but I don't see that happening. Punk will probably hold onto that briefcase for a while, and Edge is probably going to hold onto his belt at least until Undertaker returns

[thalaw2]

I wish they could bring back Gold Dust for a match or team up with Cody Rhodes.  GD was one of my grand mothers favorites and hence became one of mine.

[GhostMachine]

I wish they could bring back Gold Dust for a match or team up with Cody Rhodes.  GD was one of my grand mothers favorites and hence became one of mine.

It would certainly be better than the crappy Black Reign gimmick that Dustin is doing in TNA.....

By the way, MAJOR spoiler for RAW (match result):

[spoiler]New World Heavyweight champ! CM PUNK!!

Edge showed up while JR was making a farewell speech on RAW, only for Batista to show up and destroy Edge, finishing him off with a Batista Bomb, then Punk gave Edge a taste of his medicine by cashing in the MITB contract and hitting the Go 2 Sleep as soon as Edge got up.

JBL has his own hired security hold Cena while he attacked him then they threw Cena out of the building after Cena was cutting a promo for a title shot, and declared himself the challenger, but he ended up paying for it; During the main event, Cena got back in the building and showed up with Cryme Tyme and took out JBL's security. Punk hit the G2S on JBL while he was distracted for the win, then did a suicide dive onto the security and started helping beat them up.

Most people at another board I go to were actually expecting JBL to win, possibly with Cena either interfering and accidentally costing CM Punk the win or pulling a swerve of his own on JBL next week, so I'm more than relieved they were wrong.
[/spoiler]

[Midnight]

[spoiler]Honesty, the last week or so of WWE shows has been the best I've seen. Didn't see the Punk swerve coming at all.[/spoiler]

[Mr. Hamrick]

[spoiler]Honesty, the last week or so of WWE shows has been the best I've seen. Didn't see the Punk swerve coming at all.[/spoiler]

Sad thing is that I saw it coming the minute that
[spoiler] Edge interrupted JR and then got on the mic talking about how no one on RAW would get a shot at his title.  The only surprise to me was that Batista showed up first and I've no idea why I am surprised at that.  I guess I just expected a legit match between them.[/spoiler]

[Midnight]

Eh, honestly there's been so much cross brand crap that I wasn't expecting him to drop the title.

[Ares_God_of_War]

I was actually expecting the title drop to happen at the PPV and not RAW. I am a little dissapointed in who won but hopefully there can be a good fued between him and someone like Cena. Honestly I would rather him and Kofi be the ones after the Intercontinental title with Jericho in the main title program.

The whole DeBiase thing played out exactly how I expected it. Especially when it was Rhodes who always seemed to be on the losing end

*edit* also if there is any justice Henry will lose the title tonight. I honestly cannot think of anyone I want to see have a title less than Henry. I would even have rather had Hornswoggle than Henry. I guess people are basically saying this was to placate him for what Hayes said

[thanoson]

Wow, lots of hate for Henry. You know, he and Big Show were the 1st 2 wrestlers to sign a 10 year contract? ANyways, He's growing on me more and more. There's not a lot he can do physically in the ring but be a strong guy. WHat I mean is your basic strong guy moves. However, he's tons better than Ahmed (let me find the only nail sticking out of the announce booth causing me to lose 3 months tv time) Johnson. His work with Kane wasn't that bad and really, who on ECW do you see beating him for the belt? Mike Knox? Shelton Benjamin? Dreamer? Well, that would be a good match if they actually let Dreamer get the rub. Plus, Henry needs some kinda payback for having to do the Sammie and Mae Young programs.

[Ares_God_of_War]

LOL I actually think I really despised those angles too. I have never been a fan of Henry even with the old Nation of Domination days. He is one of those that needs a manager to be his mouthpeice. Hey, I hear they will let Ron Simmons wrestle again so maybe he can go to ECW and take it. and I agree about ahmed too. Never a fan of him either.

On a side note I have been hearing rumors of a RAW/ECW merger. If that happens I would see that ECW title basically be a glorified hardcore championship

*edit* for actually seeing someone on ECW take the title I would like Findley. I have always liked him since WCW.

[GhostMachine]

The problem is that right now there really aren't a lot of choices for possible future champions. You've got Chavo Guerrero, Finlay, John Morrison, and Matt Hardy, and that's about it if we're sticking strictly to wrestlers actually on the ECW roster and not tossing Smackdown talent into the mix. Elijah Burke could easily be built into a possible contender. Tommy Dreamer has been used as a jobber too much, unfortunately.

The only way it could have been worse than giving Mark Henry the title would have been if they had put it on Boogeyman, who quite frankly is all gimmick and apparently as injury prone, if not more, than Mark Henry.

thanoson, I find it interesting how you brought up Ahmed Johnson. Because in case you've forgotten, Mark Henry has been out with lengthy injuries on at least 3 occasions. Yeah, Ahmed did get injured in weird ways, but he was actually more talented in the ring than Mark Henry when he was around. And I'm sorry, but Mark Henry going through those horrible, horrible angles way back doesn't justify giving him a run with a main title belt, even if it is on the third-string show.

Frankly, I'm hoping that either the rumor that he was given the title to appease him over the Michael Hayes incident is true or that he had a guaranteed title run in his contract and this is it. I prefer to call him `The World's Stongest Waste of Roster Space', and he has NEVER been entertaining to me. He's one of the few wrestlers who has me reaching for the remote just about every time he appears on screen.

I admit I haven't been watching ECW much in a while, but I flat out refuse to watch it at all with Mark Henry as the champion.

[thalaw2]

Wow!  There is a lot of hate for Mark Henry here.  I like him.  I know he's not a wrestler but he's likable character.  I hope he has a good long title run. 

[Ares_God_of_War]

Its not that I hate Henry as a person or really as a performer but I don't see him as championship material for a lengthy title run for a title they wanted to try to elevate to WWF Championship and World Heavyweight Championship Status or at least something above the U.S. or Intercontinental Title. I also have the same feelings about CM Punk but I think Punk is a better performer. I'm also relatively shocked by Kofi but thats more because of how new he is to T.V.  I actually have the same feelings about Kofi that I did Lashley but Lashley grew on me so we will see with Kofi

I also agree that ECW is seriously lacking on star power now. I looked at the roster pages. RAW has 30 wrestlers on their page not counting females, announcers or people not wrestling like stone cold. Smackdown has 25 and ECW 17 if you count both Estrada and Hornswoggle. Also the weird thing is Miz and Morrison are still ECW but the tag titles are still considered Smackdown titles but the other titles like the US and World have traded shows

[GhostMachine]

Carlito won the U.S. title in his WWE debut match, so I don't see what the big deal is about Kofi Kingston winning the Intercontinental title since he had been around, albeit on a different brand, for a while. The Intercontinental and U.S. title belts used to be stepping stones to the main title or a title given to a wrestler who deserved the main title (or at least a shot at it) but weren't going to get it, but they haven't been that way in a long time.

Punk probably is a transitional champion - I'm betting GAB ends up with a Cena-JBL-Punk 3-way match with Cena winning the title by beating JBL - but he is over with the fans somewhat and does have charisma and talent. Mark Henry has NONE of those qualities and he's too injury-prone to be reliable. The only gold Mark Henry should justifiably hold is a tag-team belt (since the Hardcore title isn't active), and I'm sorry but being in the company for a long time and putting up with being involved in stupid angles doesn't mean you should be rewarded with a title run. I'd put a main title belt on Hardcore Holly before I'd put one on Mark Henry if I was a booker, and I don't particularly like Hardcore Holly at all.

Ares, ECW's roster is pretty pathetic, but since they're only a one hour show and share talent with Smackdown (the rumor being that may change, with them sharing talent with RAW instead at some point) they don't really need as big a roster. However, Mark Henry and Mike Knox are taking up roster space that could be better used by people with actual talent (Knox is actually a decent tag team wrestler, but ECW doesn't have tag teams) and Hornswoggle really should just be a sidekick and not actually involved in matches as one of the competitors!

There's only one other wrestler I dislike as much as Mark Henry, but for other reasons: Jeff Jarrett.

[Ares_God_of_War]

I hated Double J as a performer, not for skill or athletiscism, but just overall attitude and ego. I disliked him in pretty much every promotion he has been in. I have softened up on him after some candid interviews and after the loss of his wife that made me realise he was really human afterall.

Yeah Carlito I dont think should have one either but I group him with Lashley where I have been pleasantly suprised with the outcome. I just dont know what to think about Kofi yet. on a side note appearently he is from Ghana not Jamaica. Appearently his mom let that cat out of the bag. on another side note I really like his enterance theme.

I would really like to see Jericho back in the title picture. Honestly I can of wish Edge retained and HHH lost. I really like Edge with the belt and think HHH getting screwed a whole bunch of times by Edge than finally winning would actually let me root for HHH winning.

So, What wrestlers are you fond of? Most of mine dont wrestle as much like Raven or Kevin Nash but I do like Cena, Umaga, Jericho and Orton currently. And what are your thoughts about TNA so far?

[GhostMachine]

Wrestlers I am fond of (who are still active, or somewhat active), in no particular order:

Big Show
Christian (the biggest case of ball-dropping by the WWE in a long time, and I didn't blame him for leaving for TNA)
Chris Jericho
CM Punk (and I do agree he's not ready for the title)
Kane
Undertaker
Kevin Nash
Matt Hardy
Shawn Michaels
William Regal
Jushin Liger
Great Muta
Curry Man
Mike Quackenbush (And just about the entire CHIKARA roster)

You might notice there aren't a lot of heels on my list, but its not because I'm pro-face; its because there just aren't a lot of heels I really care for at the moment. I also don't get to see a lot of indy wrestling, as I can't afford to order dvds.

Funny thing about Nash: I actually got to see him wrestle live at WCW Clash of Champions XV, and even though he was wrestling as Oz and beat up some jobber, I knew right there he was going to be a big star someday. Funny thing is, I never got to see him wrestle as Vinne Vegas and saw him as Diesel 3 times before I figured out it was the same guy! Nash gets a lot of bad rep and not enough respect for his run as Diesel, with people constantly pointing to him as the lowest drawing champion in WWF history, without remembering that he was horribly booked as champion (did they really think anyone wanted to see Diesel vs. Mabel (Viscera, now Big Daddy V) for the title?!). However, he did do some bad things when he had the book in WCW (ending Goldberg's streak and giving himself title reigns he didn't deserve). Nash is still one of the best workers on the mic, and like Big Show I think he could be a stand-up comic if he decided to give up working in the wrestling biz.

I also got to see Great Muta wrestle live once. Unfortunately, it was a 5-minute squash vs. one of my least favorite wrestlers, Lex Luger, also at CoC XV....

I pretty much like all types of wrestling, except for ultraviolence (ie, stuff using light tubes, barbed wire, and a lot of other objects where the wrestlers end up cut up and covered in blood and all they really do is bash each other with weapons with little, if any, actual wrestling) and pure brawls. I even like women's wrestling, when the women actually have talent, which is why I prefer to watch Japanese women's wrestling over most American women's wrestling; most American women wrestlers can't hold a candle to the Japanese women wrestlers (look up some matches with Mariko Yoshida or Ayako Hamada (who is actually half-Mexican) to see what I mean). Women even wrestle men, and look somewhat credible doing it, in Japan, but usually in intergender tag matches where everyone is fair game. (Steve Corino teamed with Amazing (Awesome) Kong for some intergender tag matches in Zero-One in Japan)

Jeff Jarrett I dislike for a multitude of reasons. I actually liked him when he was a longhaired midcarder face in WCW, because he was right where he belonged; the midcard. The only reason JJ ever got pushed in WCW was because of his friendship with Vince Russo, and I truly believe that Jarrett is one of the reasons TNA hasn't been more successful - not just because of the company constantly pushing him and giving him title runs before he went away, but also because he is on the booking team. You know when Rhino won the title? Well, the match was originally supposed to be Nash as his opponent, and the plan was for Jarrett to retain when it was Nash he was going to face. Not a good idea, because at the time the fans in the Impact Zone had been chanting for him to drop the belt for weeks. And what did they do? Put the belt back on Jarrett about a month after he dropped it to Rhino. You DO NOT put or keep a title on a wrestler the majority of your fans do not want it on for ANY reasonable purpose, and dropping it for only a month is not nearly long enough.

TNA has been getting somewhat better. Their women's division easily blows the WWE's away, and Awesome Kong is one of the best things TNA has going for them. But they're still relying too much on WWE cast-offs (Christian, Rhino, Booker T, Kurt Angle) and has-beens (VKM, Team 3D) rather than going out of their way to build their own stars. What TNA really needs is a completely new booking team, as the one they have seems to be made up of crackheads and people with severe ADD. TNA should really cut some dead weight. From what I've read, they are losing some of it, as apparently Rellik has been let go, but I'd like to see a few others, like Petey Williams (who frankly is an average wrestler with a finisher that destroys all suspension of belief), get the axe. Abyss should be repackaged/regimmicked, instead of going from a Kane & Mankind rip-off to an unmasked Kane rip-off.....

I'd love to see someone sign and push La Parka. And I don't mean the AAA fake.

[Ares_God_of_War]

I can't believe I forgot Capt Charisma and Hardy from my list. I think Hardy gets to much flack for being the "Marty Jeanetty" of the Hardys. I saw Great Muta once in WCW during the whole nWo deal. That was the one thing I miss about WCW is that they actually showed alot of televised shows here in Utah. We used to get like a Thunder and a Nitro once a year it seemed. Besides the RAW that happened a few weeks ago the last WWE show here was Smackdown where they debuted the fist logo and Booker T "Book Ended" Rock through the accouncers table. I was actually right behind them when they did that which was a highlight because before I was slightly dissapointed in the seats.

I have never heard of Mike Quackenbush at all. Who is he most reminiscent of?

On the subject of Petey Williams I am really disliking the Steiner Clone gimmick. I think the Big Poppa Pump gimick got too old fast.

I actually remember that with JJ, wasnt that where he was fueding with ex-bears guy steve "mongo" mcmicheal and then he somehow ended up with his wife? man that mcmicheal guy was one I could always boo over pretty much everyone.

my buddy used to watch the shows in its glory days with surfer sting and macho man and the immortal hulk hogan. I was a young one at that age and I remember watching that as well. His fav was always the Ultimate Warrior who I honestly cant stand. I used to like Warrior when I was young but when I was older and saw him in WCW it was weird. He is actually part of the reason I dislike Batista sometimes due to Batista admiting he copied the ring rope shake from him

[GhostMachine]

Mike Quackenbush has to be seen to be believed. He's essentially a high flying technician with a lot of submission moves (a few he invented himself) in his arsenal. (Let me put it this way: one of his wrestling heroes is Jushin Liger, and it shows....plus he's also known as "Lightning" Mike Quackenbush) Quackenbush is the owner of CHIKARA, which is a small indy fed based out of Pennsylvania and has its own wrestling school (if you know who Chris Hero is, he's been one of its head trainers). A lot of (heck, the majority of) their wrestlers have comedy gimmicks, but the wrestling is generally excellent (they do use comedy spots, but not enough to make it irritating); their style is called Lucharesu, which borrows both from Lucha Libre (Mexican wrestling) and Puroresu (Japanese wrestling); for instance, their tag matches use Lucha rules, which means that a wrestler can enter the ring if their partner leaves, no tag required. Quackenbush also hosts a podcast called CHIKARA Podcast-A-Go-Go (there are episodes on Youtube), and he's very well spoken on the microphone.

Here's one of my favorite promos by him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope1-Lwr5IA

Unfortunately, I haven't seen nearly as many of his matches as I'd like to, because the only way to see CHIKARA really is to either go to one of their shows (I'm in TN, so that's not an option) or buy their DVDs.

You wouldn't believe it if you knew who CHIKARA's commissioner is!

[spoiler]Bob Saget. He actually appeared on their version of a Titantron at one of their shows to officially sanction a hair vs. mask match between Jigsaw and Icarus at their next show.[/spoiler]

I admit I used to be an Ultimate Warrior fan, too. But I was over that well before he popped up briefly in WCW. I actually got to see him wrestle at a house show; it was when Sgt Slaughter was champ and was doing the heel Iraqi sympathizer gimmick, and he beat Warrior in a steel cage match (and I mean the REAL steel cage with blue metal bars, not the chain link fence they call a cage nowadays) thanks to Sensational Sherri interfering. Undertaker wiped the mat with Tugboat at the same house show; it was one of `Taker's early matches. in fact.

Incidentally, Warrior just came out of retirement after 10 years to face Orlando Jordan in a match in Spain.

(I'm 37, so I do remember those "glory days" you mentioned. Mainstream wrestling was a LOT more fun back then, quite frankly, because they didn't take things too seriously back then.)

[thanoson]

Quickly, here is my list.
Raven (original ecw days)
AJ Styles
Brett Hart
Low Ki
American Dragon
Tajiri (original ecw days)
Ultimo Dragon
Dudley Boys (original ecw days)
Jerry Lynn
The Original 4 Horsemen
Roddy Piper (A long time ago)
The Stiener Brothers (wcw days)
The Road Warriors (pre wwe)
Samoa Joe
Brock Lesner
Kurt ANgle
Chris Benoit
Big Van Vader
Bam Bam Bigelow

These are not in any order. I loved heels more than the good guys. Piper and his crew during the Mr. T/Hogan days was down right racist. But they were awesome promos and some of the best heels in town. 2nd only by the original 4 Horesmen.

[BWPS]

I don't watch wrestling anymore because of work, so it's been a while.
I like heels, they make the shows interesting, they're funnier, and I really hate when good guys win against all odds. I also hate when guys I like as heels turn face. And I love cruiser-weights.

The Rated R Superstar, Edge
Christian, though I'm not much of a TNA fan, so I'm really disappointed that he left. And now there's little chance of seeing the greatest tag-team of all time return.
Rey Mysterio
Randy Orton, he's the handsomest and one of the strongest, but he's great because he's so damn evil.
Miiiiiiiiiiiister............ KENNEDY..... ... ... ... KEN-NE-DY
I really liked Carlito when everyone hated him, before he turned good
I liked the Hurricane, I see no reason to abandon such a great shtick



I hate John Cena so so much more than anyone else in the world.