My five rules to making better comic book movies.

[lugaru]

Just was wondering what you guy's think makes a successful comic book movie and what is an outright bad sign...

1) Unknown talent is cheaper and often brings that unexpected edge. Seriosly I have loved marvels technique of using low profile directors with strong visual styles to direct their recent movies. Sam Raimi, Bryan Singer and Christopher Nolan (on the DC side) are all known for strong visual styles and crazy narrative yet none of them had really broken into the mainstream yet. As for actors that is pretty much true as well although stuff like Batman Begins (wall to wall with famous actors) works pretty well too.

2) Make it fun! For me Superman Returns bored me in a lot of places and even though I am a huge defender of Ang Lee's hulk that one had it's big sagging moments as well. Seriosly at the end of the day you are making a movie about superheroes, so keep it lively!

3) No CGI grand finale. I always defend CGI tooth and nail as one of the best things that has happened to the industry. When used shrewdly it is invisible, simply making the impossible happen without any visible wires. When used poorly you get stuff like the grand finale of the hulk, daredevil or hellboy where massive ammounts of CGI fire, enery or biomass swirl and explode in a really superficial and inimpressive way. Take The Punisher on the other hand... few people will tell you it was an amazing movie but almost everyone loved the ending which is just 20 minutes of Frank Castle doing really nasty things to mobsters with minimal special effects. And even though that movie has a grand fireworks display at the end as well it still feels a lot more practical than most of these flicks.

4) Avoid camp. Seriosly. Ugh. Maybe a little wink and nudge is ok. A tiny bit of fan service or cheesecake. But outright camp... that's the territory of Joel Schumancher and never ends well.

5) Change is good, but not for no reason. Some things done in movies arent that toxic in retrospect such as spider-man with organic web slingers or the batmovile tank (actually I was never against those but 99% if the internet was). Then again some things are mildly annoying such as making Kingpin Black * while in other cases people create an entirely separate continuity within the movies. Think of supermans son (?!?) and Frank Castle having his entire extended family exterminated (!?!?!?!?!) or the fact that EVERYONE killed Batmans parents (first it was a random mobster, but that mobster was the joker, but really the poverty created by Ras Al Ghoul killed his parents, but I'm sure it's all part of a larger plot...)

Got any of your own or any comments?


* one of the great rarely addressed things about the kingpin is that he does not belong to a single Ethnic mob (he is not Mafia or Yakuza or Triad or anything else) but somehow he is mean enough that every single ethnic mob in New York follows his orders.

[The_Baroness]

6) If you don't have the same actors or team, do not continue a franchise that have 20 years of inactivity... just make a reboot...

7) Don't change the character origin, motivation or looks for no reason (catwoman anyone?)

[tommyboy]

1. Respect the source material. Seriously, movie writers and directors, these characters have often been published for 50 years, you haven't got better ideas than that, really you haven't. You might think costumes are 'cheesy', or that you need to simplify by having the main villain be hulk's dad, or the joker kill batman's parents, or Dr.Doom be in on the FFs origin, but dont. Plus, you do not design better characters than Jack Kirby did. So stop trying to.

2. Have one story. Don't assume that you can put five years worth of comics into one movie.

3. If in the comics the character wears a mask, the actor must suck it up and wear a mask except when in 'secret identity' mode. If they dont like that, get a different actor.

4. If it's a superhero movie, lets see action. Lots of action. 45 minutes of talking prior to a 5 minute fight is a bad choice.

5. Just because it' the last film in YOUR trilogy, you don't get to kill off lots of characters. So don't.

6. If any of the above grate, create your own superhero and make a movie about him/her/them/it. Then you can do whatever you like.

[GogglesPizanno]

4. If it's a superhero movie, lets see action. Lots of action. 45 minutes of talking prior to a 5 minute fight is a bad choice.

On the flip side 5 minutes of talking and 45 minutes of action can be just as boring for different reasons... I dont care how much time it takes, make the action entertaining, but back it up with enough characterization that i care about the action. Iron Man is a great example of for the most part pretty minimal action setpieces, but backed up with a lot of good character work.

5. Just because it' the last film in YOUR trilogy, you don't get to kill off lots of characters. So don't.

and

6) If you don't have the same actors or team, do not continue a franchise that have 20 years of inactivity... just make a reboot...

These go hand in hand. I dont have a problem with killing characters off provided it drives the story. This usually happens at the end of a particular film run... so if you follow the reboot idea, bringing characters back from the dead is one of the most time honored comic book traditions.

[GhostMachine]

Keep Joel Schumacher and Uwe Boll out of it. In fact, hire armed security guards with orders to shoot to kill either on sight so they don't even get a chance to stink up things with their presence.

No black leather outfits....unless the character is: a. Catwoman b. The Black Queen or c. The Punisher

[Failed_Hero]

1. Do not change a characters personality to fit "your vision" of the character. X-men for example, Cyclops is the leader, not wolverine.  Cyclops is the guy who gives the inspirational speech that makes people willing to die for the professors dream, if Cyclops isn't available  get Storm as she is the second in command.  Wolverine is a godless killing machine searching for his soul, not an inspirationally leader.

2. Symbioates don't make people dance.

3. Lex Luthor doesn't commit real estate scams in every issue.

4. Batman does not kill.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

4. Batman does not kill.

Actually, he did quite a lot of killing in his earlier comics book appearances.  Batman is one rough dude.

[GogglesPizanno]

2. Symbioates don't make people dance.

No Sam Raimi does that, and I still argue that was the best sequence in the whole movie.
So please... More evil villains busting a move!

[Glitch Girl]

All the special effects in the world are not a substitute for a decent script.   If it looks bad on paper, chances are it will look bad on screen too.

[BlueBard]

2. Symbioates don't make people dance.

No Sam Raimi does that, and I still argue that was the best sequence in the whole movie.
So please... More evil villains busting a move!

Ugh.  I refused to go see S3 in the theatres for that very reason.  That and that hair-flipping clip that turned my stomach.  Still haven't seen it.

Characters I could care less about?  A little humor and a little action and I'm happy.  Mess with one of my favorite characters ever?  My entertainment budget is better spent elsewhere.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

And related to that is this rule for producers.

Don't force your director to use a character or plot line that he doesn't like or doesn't want to do, no matter how popular it is.   If you must have it find a different director.  If you must have that director then give up that charactor or plot line.  It's better to have a less popular character well done that a popular one done by someone who doesn't like or understand it.

[BlueBard]

And related to that is this rule for producers.

Don't force your director to use a character or plot line that he doesn't like or doesn't want to do, no matter how popular it is.   If you must have it find a different director.  If you must have that director then give up that charactor or plot line.  It's better to have a less popular character well done that a popular one done by someone who doesn't like or understand it.

Absolutely. 

S2 was one of the best movies ever, IMO.  They could have taken it in so many wonderful directions... but no, [sarcasm on] gotta have Venom in S3, which means you have to squeeze in the whole symbiote suit story too.  So instead of gradually turning Peter darker and web-slinging in his sleep, he almost immediately starts to look and act like a parody of a schizoid psychopath.  Throw in Green Goblin 2 and Sandman because more is better, right? [sarcasm off]
:P

[ow_tiobe_sb]

1. Writers and directors, to the best of your ability, avoid overemphasising trite Oedipal relationships/motivations unless you have something brilliantly innovative to bring to the equation.  Superheroes are complicated, often tortured beings, to be certain, so don't oversimplify what gets them up in the morning to "I hate my father/what my father did to me" or "Mum died and it's all your fault!"  This goes for surrogate fathers and mothers as well.  If the comic books did not limit these characters to these relationships/motivations, neither should the translation of the comic to the silver screen.

2. In a related vein, if your film involves a female lead, let her lead--don't make her warm the bench.  Regardless of how peripheral the comic book might have made the superhero's object of affection, such a relationship will seem contrived and flat (or appear to be nothing more than a mere device to buttress the spandex-wearing hero's heterosexuality) within the context of a feature film available to a general audience.  Even though certain heroes' lives make having steady relationships difficult (e.g., Spider-Man, the Hulk, even Superman), this is no reason to keep your leading lady off camera for 50% of the film only to employ her as a helpless, hapless, hysterical damsel in distress during the finale.  :thumbdown:  Comic books may need to limit how often love interests occupy their frames due to page constraints, but they always imply that a believable, full-blooded, living, breathing relationship--however vexed that relationship might be--exists between the frames.  In film, you can explore those interstices between the comic book frames more convincingly and rewardingly.

3. Don't pander to untutored audiences by dumbing down a complex character or plot or drastically transforming the context of the original comic book in the interests of making a killing at the box office due to the film's wider demographic appeal.  By now you know that there will typically be a loyal army of fanboys with photographic memories champing at the bit for the opportunity to purchase a ticket to see your movie at least once or, if 'tis down well, twice.  Goodness knows I'd even be tempted (tempted) to see a Forbush Man movie...  :huh:  Let the film, with its story and its characters' rich history, sell itself without unnecessary codswallop or oversimplification wasting screen time.

4. Don't be afraid to make a film that takes risks instead of fulfilling audiences' normative expectations.  Release an almost three-hour The Incredible Hulk before it goes to DVD (especially considering that this new film is hardly the comic book character's first television or film outing).   Leave the paternity of Lois Lane's son a mystery.  Put something redeeming into the script of X3.

5. Don't be afraid to let us know how much you respect and love the character/s via your cinematography, screenplay, and direction.  Jon Favreau and the Iron Man writing team seem to love Tony Stark.  Bryan Singer, for all his faults, seems to love Superman.  While it is true that art reflects the observer and conceals the artist, the love of the artist for the art can be reproduced in the observer's love for that art and thereby revealed indirectly.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

P.S. Sorry, cat.  I wrote my Rule #5 before I had the chance to see your post.

[GogglesPizanno]

Leave the paternity of Lois Lane... 

On the drawing board

Put something redeeming into the script of X3

Like a dancing Peter Parker  :P

[crimsonquill]

Put something redeeming into the script of X3

Like a dancing Peter Parker  :P

Or even better.. a dancing Wolverine doing showtunes.. after all Hugh Jackman doing anything sexy for the women makes more money, right?  :lol:

- CrimsonQuill

[GogglesPizanno]

Or even better.. a dancing Wolverine doing showtunes...

Chicks and ducks and geese better scurry
When I take you out in the surrey,
When I take you out in the surrey with the fringe on top!

SNIKT!

[daglob]

Or even better.. a dancing Wolverine doing showtunes...

Chicks and ducks and geese better scurry
When I take you out in the surrey,
When I take you out in the surrey with the fringe on top!

SNIKT!

"MMMMAAAAAAAANNNNitoba where the winds come screaming down the plains,"

[Carravaggio]

Plus, you do not design better characters than Jack Kirby did. So stop trying to.

Best line ever.

[Glitch Girl]

Or even better.. a dancing Wolverine doing showtunes...

Chicks and ducks and geese better scurry
When I take you out in the surrey,
When I take you out in the surrey with the fringe on top!

SNIKT!

"MMMMAAAAAAAANNNNitoba where the winds come screaming down the plains,"

Off topic, but
WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!...

[gasp]  Okay, I'm good.

on topic:

This was semi-covered earlier, but to add to it: do not overload your movie with villians.  Two is okay, occasionally too much depending on how the characters are handled.  Three or more notable baddies is just wrong.  There is just nearly no way to balance focus between that many adversaries and your hero who is SUPPOSED to be headlining. 

The one possible exception is team based hero movies, but then it needs to be a team of roughly equal presence and power and even then, it's going to be hard as heck to deal with without some characters getting shafted.

Remember: More ≠better

Edit:

DArn you guys....


INT: X-Mansion -DAY

Kityt Pryde sings:

Summoning lightning and causing rain showers
Ice beams and eye beams and quick healing powers
flying and armor and stretchable limbs,
these are a few of my new mutant friends....


(I'll stop now)

[doctorchallenger]

If you are not Christopher Nolan and you are doing a Batman Movie, not every Bat-villain is the Joker in a different costume with a slightly different schtick.  Riddler is a planner, out to prove his wit, Two-Face is not a giggling idiot who plays with a coin, and Mr. Freeze should not crack jokes. 

Also will you guys let a villain live so that he/she might come back in a sequel if the franchise happens to be successful.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Also will you guys let a villain live so that he/she might come back in a sequel if the franchise happens to be successful.

And on that note, it's just as bad to have the same villain every single time.  We've seen Lex Luthor before, he's getting old, move on.

[Jakew]

* Stick to the source material.

* Balance the characters in terms of screen-time.

* When possible, get the creator/s on board as a consult.

* Assume your target audience is composed of both young and old ... guys.

* Use character actors or relative unknowns ... not mega-stars.

* Get a good casting agent who has actually read the comics.

[House Quake]

1. Try as best to bring in people already familiar with the character(s).  From director, to screenwriter, to actors... as many people as you can have who don't have to cram in 25+ years of history about a character.. the better.

2. Some artistic license is OK... but try to stay true to the character and 'his' story.  If it was successful in the comics... it can be successful on the screen.

3. Hire good actors... period.  Whether big names or little knowns... it doesn't matter as long as you get actors who can bring the best out of the character.  Strong 'up-n-comers' are probably best.
* I have seen big names do good (ex. Ed Norton), some do bad (ex. Nick Cage, Halle Berry)... a couple no names do good (ex. Hugh Jackman) and do bad (anyone whose name you can't recall).  But it seams the best have been the up-n-comers and b-list name actors (Christian Bale, Robert Downey Jr., Toby Maguire, Ron Perlman, Hugo Weaving, Patrick Stewart, ect).  These actors come with either long or short resumes with some  proven success... though not always blockbuster level... yet.

4. Make sure you satisfy the 'fan-boy'.  When it comes to superheroes... people will always seek the 'geeks' and good word of mouth from geeks can go a long way.  Heck... even while watching the movie and the geeks go 'yeah!'... it becomes contagious.  Other people may not get it at the moment... but they feel as if something cool happened.

5. The villain is just as important as the hero.  Treat him with respect.

[UnkoMan]

And related to that is this rule for producers.

Don't force your director to use a character or plot line that he doesn't like or doesn't want to do, no matter how popular it is.   If you must have it find a different director.  If you must have that director then give up that charactor or plot line.  It's better to have a less popular character well done that a popular one done by someone who doesn't like or understand it.

Absolutely. 

S2 was one of the best movies ever, IMO.  They could have taken it in so many wonderful directions... but no, [sarcasm on] gotta have Venom in S3, which means you have to squeeze in the whole symbiote suit story too.  So instead of gradually turning Peter darker and web-slinging in his sleep, he almost immediately starts to look and act like a parody of a schizoid psychopath.  Throw in Green Goblin 2 and Sandman because more is better, right? [sarcasm off]
:P

But think, honestly, about the movie if it didn't have Venom... Can you say you would dislike it or would it, in fact, become the best Spider-Man movie of all?

[Talavar]

Spider-man 3 had more wrong with it than Venom.  The lame amnesia plot for Harry, his last-minute switch to good when his butler tells him so - his butler who comes out of frickin' nowhere by the way - the lack of resolution with Sandman, Gwen Stacey's general pointlessness in the film, etc.

[BWPS]

It would've been better if Venom had been the only character in the movie. Topher Grace was awesome I don't care what you say!!!!!exclaimations

[Jakew]

I agree ... it wasn't that Venom was a poor character, the film just had a poor script.

As mentioned, campy 'evil Peter', the butler deus ex machina, the amnesia, cramming two superpowered villains into the film, portraying Venom with the 'meteor origin' when the previous spider-man films had strived for 'realism', etc. It was half-arsed and silly compared to spider-man 2, which was almost a perfect superhero film.