Thor vs Red Hulk

[B A D]

You don't "get around " the enchantment. Its not just really heavy. NOBODY who's worthy should be able to pick it up, much less use it as a croquet mallet on Odin's boy. It says so right on the side of the freaking hammer. The second thor let go of it , Rulk should have shot down toward earth like a missile, period. 

The enchantment states that only those that are worthy may lift the hammer right? It does not say that only those that are worthy may wield the hammer. In zero gravity one does not have to lift the hammer to use it, since the laws of gravity no longer apply. I know that you are going to say that Mjolnir is governed by magic and not gravity and that is true, but the enchantment does state "lift" not "wield". Loeb no doubt saw this as a great way to find the loophole in the enchantment and I think it is brilliant. Hey don't blame Loeb blame the guy that originally wrote the enchantments for Mjolnir. Loeb was being creative and you guys are bashing him for it.  :thumbdown:

Its an ENCHANTMENT. The laws of gravity, physics, and driving 55 don't freaking  apply.

[Previsionary]

Finally someone who is using their head and not crying foul play about their beloved Thor! I love Thor as much as the next guy but how Rulk managed to use Mjolnir against Thor is creative, not crappy writing as many of you here are saying. Loeb was thinking outside of the box and not following the same old same old.

By the same token, just because you "like" something and find it to be "creative" does not make it a good writing. Welcome to the internet...where opinions live. Also, it's not just a Thor thing, Red Hulk is going around doing ridiculous things like punching out Watchers. He's being built up to a ridiculous level and no one can take him seriously OUTSIDE of Loeb's *cough* creative *cough* writing. If Rulk ever leaves Loeb's hands, I can see him being beat down...a lot.

[Talavar]

I don't even really like Thor and I thought this was dumb. 

Some writers, whenever they introduce a new character, feel the need to have their little darling beat up more established characters to make them seem tough/powerful.  It rarely comes off as believable, and just looks like the author is playing favourites with his creation while dumping on those of other writers.

That's all that's happening here - I mean, Rulkie took out the Abomination, Idiot Green Hulk (why is he dumb again, who knows?) She-hulk, and now Thor, all without seeming effort.

Maybe this can cross-over with something Bendis writes and the Sentry can punt Rulkie into the sun.  Bendis seems to pull more weight with Marvel right now, so his plot-device characters should trump Loeb's, right?

[the_ultimate_evil]

thread jack:

i recently got the planet hulk TPB and what surprised me most is hulk is intelligent and talking normally, is this prof hulk or did i miss something when did he get his brains back

[Talavar]

Hulk's been intelligent for quite awhile now - since before House of M at least.  I don't know when exactly it happened, but at least Loeb's reset the status quo without explanation or comment. Yay?

[thanoson]

Hmm... maybe that wasn't the real Hulk we saw? Banner and Ross are being very secretive. Maybe there's something more we don't know yet? Anyone getting a Maestro vibe here? Maybe it's someone that has tapped fully into the rage. Could Maestro have given a beating like this?

[Core]

i would like to say that i very much disliked the space skirmish.

As to the whole 'zero' gravity thing, its my understanding that there is no such thing. A gravitational field extends infinitely, but diminishes with distance. Additionally, everything in the solar system is subject to the gravitational attraction of the sun. Although in space you can be 'weightless', there is no such thing as 'zero' gravity.

correct. gravitational forces exist between all objects with mass.

since mjolnir drops to the ground when people let go of it (and stays there when the unworthy try to lift it), it probably takes gravitational forces into account, and so, it would crash on earth or the moon (since those would be the most convenient locations  :D).

[Renegade]

I found this over at Newsarama. Loeb has some precedent on his side.

http://www.newsarama.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a46ada8ea-92e4-4618-9265-5be7cad0342bForum%3aeddf0de6-9daf-45e6-a15c-da5305371fbeDiscussion%3a9c399fcf-8eb7-401b-bc24-911ab91274c1&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

[captmorgan72]

Doesn't matter, everyone here already has it set in their minds that what Rulk did or rather what Loeb did was garbage. You can show them all the evidence in the world why this can happen and probably even if Stan Lee thought it was cool, they would still cry "that's just stupid, that could never happen."

I already settled the Rulk vs Thor thing in the rumble room awhile back anyway and Thor almost never loses to him. Why? One answer, the god blast.

[steamteck]

Doesn't matter, everyone here already has it set in their minds that what Rulk did or rather what Loeb did was garbage. You can show them all the evidence in the world why this can happen and probably even if Stan Lee thought it was cool, they would still cry "that's just stupid, that could never happen."

I already settled the Rulk vs Thor thing in the rumble room awhile back anyway and Thor almost never loses to him. Why? One answer, the god blast.

If that makes you happy to believe it I'm happy for you. The method he used isn't as important to me as the fact Rulk is going through the A list and thrashing them to prove  how great he is and the combo of him being crazy overpowered and his opponants being writer fiated too wimp out. ( Mjolnir in the face and unfazed, seriously,Also did Thor forget all his fighting skills and poor green Hulk his rage factor and durability )


Interesting I don't even give my version of Thor the godblast.  If Stan Lee thought something stupid was OK BTW, It would still be stupid.

[Previsionary]

I found this over at Newsarama. Loeb has some precedent on his side.

http://www.newsarama.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a46ada8ea-92e4-4618-9265-5be7cad0342bForum%3aeddf0de6-9daf-45e6-a15c-da5305371fbeDiscussion%3a9c399fcf-8eb7-401b-bc24-911ab91274c1&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Thanks for the link, Ren. This was mentioned earlier, but it's nice to see scans. Capt Morgan, just stop. All those generalized comments aren't gonna make anyone reconsider their stance. Your mind is made up too and no one is trying to convince you or call your opinion wrong, so why are you trying to do it? They don't agree with it and they don't have to no matter what you believe. And please...Stan Lee may be a comic legend...but why should his opinion on something dictate anything to the public? He's a fan like the rest of us.

What I find interesting is that you keep focusing on Thor when most people here are tired of Red Hulk in general. I find it especially funny because you start all these threads asking others how so and so did this and then you argue against it...like in that captain america thread you started, iirc.

What issues did Cap fight and beat Sub Mariner and the Wrecker? I don't believe that Steve could beat any of these guys. If it did happen it was terrible writing, no way should this happen. The Wrecker was beating on Cage's Avengers and it took all of them to take him down.

So...what was the difference between then and now? How the tables turned. :P

[Ares_God_of_War]

This all reminds me of the Onslaught saga. This whole thing is a common practice with superhero and science fiction writing. The reason I bring up onslaught is that after that I didnt have the ability to get comics as easily as I used to so I stuck with the trade paperbacks. But anyway in that arc they sent a no-name villian called Post to basically trounce Cable and the X-men, then an overpowered Mimic and also Juggernaut got punked hardcore. All they are doing is setting up this Jerk to be the Big Bad of the season and then Hulk, or the Avengers or some combination of Hulk characters will end up trouncing him and save the day and then Rulk will basically be useless in future encounters unless they do portray him as Doc Samson

[captmorgan72]

I found this over at Newsarama. Loeb has some precedent on his side.

http://www.newsarama.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a46ada8ea-92e4-4618-9265-5be7cad0342bForum%3aeddf0de6-9daf-45e6-a15c-da5305371fbeDiscussion%3a9c399fcf-8eb7-401b-bc24-911ab91274c1&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0

Thanks for the link, Ren. This was mentioned earlier, but it's nice to see scans. Capt Morgan, just stop. All those generalized comments aren't gonna make anyone reconsider their stance. Your mind is made up too and no one is trying to convince you or call your opinion wrong, so why are you trying to do it? They don't agree with it and they don't have to no matter what you believe. And please...Stan Lee may be a comic legend...but why should his opinion on something dictate anything to the public? He's a fan like the rest of us.

What I find interesting is that you keep focusing on Thor when most people here are tired of Red Hulk in general. I find it especially funny because you start all these threads asking others how so and so did this and then you argue against it...like in that captain america thread you started, iirc.

What issues did Cap fight and beat Sub Mariner and the Wrecker? I don't believe that Steve could beat any of these guys. If it did happen it was terrible writing, no way should this happen. The Wrecker was beating on Cage's Avengers and it took all of them to take him down.

So...what was the difference between then and now? How the tables turned. :P

If you would have kept reading the posts in that thread you would have seen that I changed my view about that, after reading tons of Captain America issues. So sorry no tables turning over here.  ;) Also don't tell me to stop when all I am doing is discussing this issue that everyone is so fired up over. Geez, some people here think they have some sort of authority to dictate what others can say. If you don't like what I have to say don't read my thread, simple as that bud.  :rolleyes: I am not making "generalized comments " and I am not trying to persuade people to "reconsider their stance". I am doing the same thing as everyone else is, discussing the issue and what Loeb did. You must hate Rum or something.  :blink:

[Previsionary]

mhm, sure. You didnt post anymore in that thread so it's kinda hard to read on. You keep harping on about thor and everyone who doesn't agree with your stance and going on about evidence when people keep posting that they dont particularly care for the way it was handled and red hulk in general. And no, I don't think I have authority and no one is even really fired up over this issue...so...what? But yeah...sure.

Also, I was pretty sure you would miss the point of me posting something you wrote. You didn't think Capt could beat those characters posters posted and immediately called it bad writing without even any knowledge on the issues (you certainly didnt bring up creativity). The difference here is, now you think Rulkie can go around beating up high class characters like thor because of "creative writing" and people who also read the same issue don't. See, how simple that was? Wasn't even insulting you. ^_^

[Talavar]

Doesn't matter, everyone here already has it set in their minds that what Rulk did or rather what Loeb did was garbage. You can show them all the evidence in the world why this can happen and probably even if Stan Lee thought it was cool, they would still cry "that's just stupid, that could never happen."

I already settled the Rulk vs Thor thing in the rumble room awhile back anyway and Thor almost never loses to him. Why? One answer, the god blast.

What Loeb does in Hulk doesn't matter - everything he writes these days is garbage.  I enter Ultimates III as evidence, and the prosecution rests.

[gengoro]

Sorry to change the subject but, how did red hulk even beat hulk though?  I thought hulk still had his world war hulk persona which means he was stronger than ever before or something?  :unsure:

[Previsionary]

Sorry to change the subject but, how did red hulk even beat hulk though?  I thought hulk still had his world war hulk persona which means he was stronger than ever before or something?  :unsure:

No, Hulk regressed as soon as Loeb came on board and we still don't know why. So smart, strong Planet-WWH hulk is now dumb, weaker, hulk again. Fun in a can, no? Anyway, going by what i remember reading in reviews, Red Hulk strangled Green hulk until he passed out and then carried him up onto a bridge...for some reason. Green Hulk escaped and Thor showed up for one reason or another. Actually...like AA mentioned, I don't have any idea why Thor appeared in this book.

[captmorgan72]

mhm, sure. You didnt post anymore in that thread so it's kinda hard to read on. You keep harping on about thor and everyone who doesn't agree with your stance and going on about evidence when people keep posting that they dont particularly care for the way it was handled and red hulk in general. And no, I don't think I have authority and no one is even really fired up over this issue...so...what? But yeah...sure.

Also, I was pretty sure you would miss the point of me posting something you wrote. You didn't think Capt could beat those characters posters posted and immediately called it bad writing without even any knowledge on the issues (you certainly didnt bring up creativity). The difference here is, now you think Rulkie can go around beating up high class characters like thor because of "creative writing" and people who also read the same issue don't. See, how simple that was? Wasn't even insulting you. ^_^

Oops my bad, I thought you where quoting my "what's so super about the super soldier serum" thread. In that thread I did a John Kerry and flip flopped. After reading a ton of Captain America issues I saw the light. Also your right about me prematurely calling those Captain America stories bad writing. I'll admit to that. I don't think that Rulk can go around beating up high class characters because of creative writing though. In my opinion, I think that Loeb was being creative with how he handled the Mjolnir enchantment. I realize that it is splitting hairs but the enchantment does say lift not wield. I hope you don't take these debates personally. I have a blast debating with the people here but sometimes I wonder if I go to far.  :unsure:

[Jakew]

Meh, I'm not particularly interested in Loeb's Hulk, but I'm not really that worried about Thor's hammer. Bad guys have been manipulating it for years (riding it when it returns to Thor, removing its enchantments, etc), so Loeb's use of it isn't particularly controversial.

As someone else pointed out, Loeb isn't even the first person to present the "lack of gravity" scenario.

Loeb is obviously trying to create a new superstrong villain who is a Hulk-level "threat" in the Marvel universe which, post-World War Hulk, is no easy feat (World War Hulk beat up EVERYONE!). Having Red Hulk beat up Cloak & Dagger or the Runaways isn't going to make him look formidable. He beats up on She-Hulk, Hulk, Thor, etc ... conversations, arguments, and discussions are started on comic message boards. "No way so-and-so could have beaten so-and-so because in issue #113..." Back issues are consulted. Previous feats are debated. Attention is drawn to the comic.

Anyway,having the new baddie on the block beat up on the good guys during the first round is nothing new. I'm sure the goodies will rally and return the status quo.

OT, Captmorgan72 ... did you ever end up reading that Avengers storyline where the Masters of Evil invade Avengers mansion? If so, what did you think?

[herodad1]

i dont know if that questions for anybody but i read it and yeah it was believable.they caught the avengers with their pants down.hardly anyone was at the mansion,the ones there were lower power leveled,(except jarvis),well thought out assault,and it was a quick assault with alot of power.oh yeah...and herc was drunk & drugged.but they rallied and came out on top.

[detourne_me]

i think i mustve missed reading Hulk #3,  how did banner get out of that jail he was in?
i guess hulk reverted back at the end of WWH when hulk and sentry released all that energy,  it just burned out both of them.


and i gotta stick up for loeb, ultimates 3 may stink,  but seriously, what in the ultimate line doesn't right now?
Loeb and Sale are doing Cap: White and that's already off to a great start.
does everyone forget Jeph Loeb's incredible track record, and work with Heroes?  (not to mention Teen Wolf!!!)

[Previsionary]

Um...ultimate spider-man. Also, Ultimate X-men is back on a rise until Loeb takes over and kills a bunch of the cast...so...yeah. There's also Ultimate Origins. Ultimate Ironman II and Ultimate Human were good too, so that line does hold some merit. Also, tv and comics are two different mediums. :P Even people who loved Long Halloween said it doesn't hold up after a few readings and the plots he's doing now can also be found in that book...it's kinda odd to me. Every book he's doing right now (not including cap since im avoiding that until more comes out) has a mystery going on (Red hulk and Black Panther). He's off his game in Ultimates and Red Hulk, me thinks. I can't remember the last time I enjoyed something by Loeb. :S

Anyway, I could take the burned out reasoning if Sentry wasn't still running around as fresh as a daisy. But yeah, this should have been stated in the first few issue instead of just being dragged out. As to your question, while Red hulk and A-bomb/Rick fought, they cracked the cell holding Banner allowing him to hulk out and escape.

[Zippo]

Well, I believe part of the reason Hulk was so strong during WWH was that he was "madder than he's ever been". Now that WWH is over, and certain things have been revealed about who's really responsible for the things that happened to Hulk, I think he feels more guilty and/or sad and less angry, therefore less powerful (possibly less smart aswell?).

[Talavar]

i think i mustve missed reading Hulk #3,  how did banner get out of that jail he was in?
i guess hulk reverted back at the end of WWH when hulk and sentry released all that energy,  it just burned out both of them.


and i gotta stick up for loeb, ultimates 3 may stink,  but seriously, what in the ultimate line doesn't right now?
Loeb and Sale are doing Cap: White and that's already off to a great start.
does everyone forget Jeph Loeb's incredible track record, and work with Heroes?  (not to mention Teen Wolf!!!)

I haven't really ever liked Loeb's writing, so his "incredible" track record doesn't do much for me.

[captmorgan72]

Meh, I'm not particularly interested in Loeb's Hulk, but I'm not really that worried about Thor's hammer. Bad guys have been manipulating it for years (riding it when it returns to Thor, removing its enchantments, etc), so Loeb's use of it isn't particularly controversial.

As someone else pointed out, Loeb isn't even the first person to present the "lack of gravity" scenario.

Loeb is obviously trying to create a new superstrong villain who is a Hulk-level "threat" in the Marvel universe which, post-World War Hulk, is no easy feat (World War Hulk beat up EVERYONE!). Having Red Hulk beat up Cloak & Dagger or the Runaways isn't going to make him look formidable. He beats up on She-Hulk, Hulk, Thor, etc ... conversations, arguments, and discussions are started on comic message boards. "No way so-and-so could have beaten so-and-so because in issue #113..." Back issues are consulted. Previous feats are debated. Attention is drawn to the comic.

Anyway,having the new baddie on the block beat up on the good guys during the first round is nothing new. I'm sure the goodies will rally and return the status quo.

OT, Captmorgan72 ... did you ever end up reading that Avengers storyline where the Masters of Evil invade Avengers mansion? If so, what did you think?

I have and I liked it. I can relate with Herc getting his arse kicked fighting drunk, hard to concentrate on what your doing when everything is spinning  :lol:

[herodad1]

with different personalities of the hulks comes different power levels.he's not as strong/invulnerable when he's mr.fixit and the banner/scientist hulk.he's stronger when he's the child like minded hulk and the tough guy quasi-intelligent hulk(WWH).both those are fueled by explosive hair-triggered anger.they also have more ego thrown in also.(the strongest there is!)

[Mowgli]

In my opinion, that whole issue was just poorly written.

- Thor was a match for the Hulk before he got the Odin power. Now that he has it, he is... weaker? Dumber? I mean, he's no rocket scientist, but all Thor tried was punching and hammer swings. Red hulk even mentioned that Thor's fighting skills were legendary... so where were they?

- The "magical" enchantment" was explained as gravity? Just plain stupid. Loeb's writing did for Thor what Highlander II did for Highlander: It turned something cool, mythological and even magical into something very trite, poorly explained with simple science. In both cases, the latter explanation greatly defaces the original creation.

- Thor's a god. No wait... Thor is now a god to other gods... and this 5 issue old red Hulk shrugs him off like he's nothing. I guess we have our new Galactus, or Beyonder, or whatever.

I'm not saying Thor had to win. I mean, it happens in the pages of the Hulk, and everybody knows a hero is at their strongest in their own comic. But they way they wrote it, it may as well have been Jubille fighting red Hulk for all the difference Thor made. Loeb wasted a great chance to write a legendary clash of titans and turned it into tripe.

Oh, and this..

"Finally someone who is using their head and not crying foul play about their beloved Thor! I love Thor as much as the next guy but how Rulk managed to use Mjolnir against Thor is creative, not crappy writing as many of you here are saying. Loeb was thinking outside of the box and not following the same old same old. "

Someone liking Thor doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours. That was arrogant. In my opinion, Loeb's writing was a crappy and denied the fans a great fight, whoever would have won.

[captmorgan72]

In my opinion, that whole issue was just poorly written.

- Thor was a match for the Hulk before he got the Odin power. Now that he has it, he is... weaker? Dumber? I mean, he's no rocket scientist, but all Thor tried was punching and hammer swings. Red hulk even mentioned that Thor's fighting skills were legendary... so where were they?

- The "magical" enchantment" was explained as gravity? Just plain stupid. Loeb's writing did for Thor what Highlander II did for Highlander: It turned something cool, mythological and even magical into something very trite, poorly explained with simple science. In both cases, the latter explanation greatly defaces the original creation.

- Thor's a god. No wait... Thor is now a god to other gods... and this 5 issue old red Hulk shrugs him off like he's nothing. I guess we have our new Galactus, or Beyonder, or whatever.

I'm not saying Thor had to win. I mean, it happens in the pages of the Hulk, and everybody knows a hero is at their strongest in their own comic. But they way they wrote it, it may as well have been Jubille fighting red Hulk for all the difference Thor made. Loeb wasted a great chance to write a legendary clash of titans and turned it into tripe.

Oh, and this..

"Finally someone who is using their head and not crying foul play about their beloved Thor! I love Thor as much as the next guy but how Rulk managed to use Mjolnir against Thor is creative, not crappy writing as many of you here are saying. Loeb was thinking outside of the box and not following the same old same old. "

Someone liking Thor doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours. That was arrogant. In my opinion, Loeb's writing was a crappy and denied the fans a great fight, whoever would have won.

Now why would you say this "Someone liking Thor doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours" I completely agree with you and I am not sure why you said this. You think Loeb's writing was crappy and I don't, that's cool, everybody has their own opinion. A writer can't please everyone with their ideas obviously. I love Thor, he's one of my all time favorite marvel characters and mythological characters. Despite being a huge Thor fan I was not bothered by Rulk beating up on him. Obviously Loeb is trying to build up Rulk to be the next big threat for the marvel universe and beating down someone like Thor is a given. I have no doubt that Thor will come back to kick his arse. As far as how the enchantment on Mjolnir was handled, I thought that was clever. Apparently it's not the first time a writer used that angle either. Either way it's just a story and certainly nothing to get worked up over. Comics are full of stories that contradict previous stories and violates canon already established. So this is nothing new. In the end did it entertain you? It did me.

[Mowgli]

Captmorgan72: This quote, "Finally someone who is using their head and not crying foul play about their beloved Thor!" says that you think Thor fans are only crying "foul play" because they love Thor. Being a fan doesn't make someone's opinion of a fictional character any less valid.

And as far as being entertained goes, it seems like the vast majority of readers were not (check other boards as well). I certainly wasn't. I am a fan of Iron Man and Captain America. I didn't really care who won this fight, as long as it was good. And it was far from good. One character stomps all over the other who barely fights back at all. The loser acts like an idiot throughout the fight. And let's face it, it wasn't even a fight. Thor did nothing the red Hulk didn't shrug off. One panel of the red Hulk saying, "You suck and I don't" tells as much story as that entire issue. I'm sorry I paid for it. I expected an epic battle of titans, but I got a mild drive by. I guess it's entertaining if you like watching an adult beat on a child (because that's how one sided it was).

I will sincerely reconsider anything Loeb writes from now on (that perspective also inlcudes what he has done to the Ultimates).

[B A D]

Oh gods, why bring up the Ultimates? Thats not fair.