tommyboy's Map Making Misadventures and Conundrums

[style]

Let me get this straight before l get my hopes up. Will this awesome map just be for :ffvstr: ? Maybe I  I'm missing something here. :huh:

[GogglesPizanno]

Again being at work behind the cursed "Web Filter of Death" I can't see screen shots or look at the game files, but you are correct in that Hex editing was done extensively to basically replace all instances of "area_specific" with area_speciff1" - And as you saw it allows the maps to work as is, and it allows you to manually place building and objects via the in game editor, but things can get a bit wonky with the template stuff. It was one of the tradeoffs when I did the mappack (as like you I didn't want to spend 90% of the time setting drop down template values), as most people would be either playing FF1 maps, or placing a few FF1 objects... and for that its ok. For something on the scale you are talking about, quirks and issues rear up.

You might check the FF1 building object directories to make sure they have a "template.txt" file and that there is in fact a template that matches in FFedit. If I remember correctly, buildings were handled a bit more loosely by the game engine in FF vs. FFvTR. If they dont have that, adding it and trying to reimport the level layout might work -- its a longshot, but hey.

I have a couple of other suggestion that are just spitballed off the top of my head right now, though neither of them is perfect.

My best idea would be to do the map as an FF1 conversion (like I did with the FF1 maps)
Basically build the map as an FF1 map. Then edit the map in a hex editor and do a batch and replace of "area_specific" with area_speciff1". At that point you should have a giant working FF1 map converted to FFvTR like I had done it. You would then need to manually swap out or place any new FFvTR content in the editor.

The other option would be to figure out in a hex editor where that template value is set for each object, and then come up with some kind of pattern recognition to search out and add/replace. While this kind of thing CAN be done (and I have) it can get really ugly really fast -- especially if you miss an empty byte somewhere along the way.

[tommyboy]

Let me get this straight before l get my hopes up. Will this awesome map just be for :ffvstr: ? Maybe I  I'm missing something here. :huh:

There will be, and already is, an FF version of the map. The troubles I am having is with version that is a hybrid of ff and ffv3r stuff. At some later date there will be (I hope) an FFv3R 'only' version which will use the slightly superior (IMO) FFv3R buildings only.
So there is an FF 'only' version.
There is an ff and ffv3r version featuring buildings and objects from both games.
There should be an FFv3r only version for those without any ff content at all.

[tommyboy]

Again being at work behind the cursed "Web Filter of Death" I can't see screen shots or look at the game files, but you are correct in that Hex editing was done extensively to basically replace all instances of "area_specific" with area_speciff1" - And as you saw it allows the maps to work as is, and it allows you to manually place building and objects via the in game editor, but things can get a bit wonky with the template stuff. It was one of the tradeoffs when I did the mappack (as like you I didn't want to spend 90% of the time setting drop down template values), as most people would be either playing FF1 maps, or placing a few FF1 objects... and for that its ok. For something on the scale you are talking about, quirks and issues rear up.

You might check the FF1 building object directories to make sure they have a "template.txt" file and that there is in fact a template that matches in FFedit. If I remember correctly, buildings were handled a bit more loosely by the game engine in FF vs. FFvTR. If they dont have that, adding it and trying to reimport the level layout might work -- its a longshot, but hey.

I have a couple of other suggestion that are just spitballed off the top of my head right now, though neither of them is perfect.

My best idea would be to do the map as an FF1 conversion (like I did with the FF1 maps)
Basically build the map as an FF1 map. Then edit the map in a hex editor and do a batch and replace of "area_specific" with area_speciff1". At that point you should have a giant working FF1 map converted to FFvTR like I had done it. You would then need to manually swap out or place any new FFvTR content in the editor.

The other option would be to figure out in a hex editor where that template value is set for each object, and then come up with some kind of pattern recognition to search out and add/replace. While this kind of thing CAN be done (and I have) it can get really ugly really fast -- especially if you miss an empty byte somewhere along the way.

It appears to me, (through my vast beer goggles), as though you are making sense with the 'convert an ff version' hypothesis. However, I have to assess the information in my more sober alter-ego, lest Beer-Goggle-Boy lead me astray.
Woooo...is the room spinning for everyone else..? I don't recall putting on roller skates..
I'll leave it until I return to the dessicated Shores of Sobriety, whereupon my ability to spell may return..
Worst case scenario if I follow your advice? I reload the backups I'll make before trying anything..
At least I whupped my friends at Wii Golf down the pub, although that may be nothing to be proud of it covered my drinks for the night..

[tommyboy]

Well, a quick test this morning seems to prove that taking the FF mission.dat and replacing area_specific with area_speciff1 where ever appropriate via hex editor, and using it in ffv3r works just fine. Thanks for the tip Goggles.
Having had that sorted for me, the only other problem I have currently is that object shadows are messed up in both FF and FFv3r versions. See pic below:

It's as though it's trying to display the shadows at a greater distance than the view is actually set for.
It may be specific to my graphics card, a Geforce 8800gt.
But I suspect that the sheer number of objects is overloading the engines capacity to calculate where shadows should be.
So I just turn 'em off. It's a shame to lose the shadows, but there have to be some costs to a map this size, and no shadows is one of them.
And speaking of costs... I manually added in some civilians, trying for one male and one female per block. I stopped when I'd added seventy (35 of each). And although it's nice to see them walking around, or running away, the cost in processing power is, I think, too high. Between animating 70 civs and the traffic, my pc is starting to choke. Ergo, no civs, and I'm considering having no moving traffic. Now, obviously once the map is released, people can add civs to it in the editor, if they feel it's too empty, or they are needed for a mission. And loathe though I am to deprive new york of the patriot city sport of vehicular homicide, again, the costs may outweigh the benefits. Plus I rather stupidly have a jam at every junction at the moment, so its not as if the cars can go very far..
Well, back to adding in stuff for me...

[AfghanAnt]

This thread is one of my recent favorites. I am so glad someone is making more maps. It getting really dull playing in the same sandbox over and over again.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

At least I whupped my friends at Wii Golf down the pub, although that may be nothing to be proud of it covered my drinks for the night..

"Wii Golf"--isn't that a game most frequently played after, and not before, putting down a number of pints? ;)

As I've noted elsewhere, 'tis a beautiful Chrysler Building you've done there, Tom.  I especially admire the way you've reduced what could be massive mapping distortion to an unnoticeable minimum on that spire.  Very nicely executed. :)

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

[tommyboy]

At least I whupped my friends at Wii Golf down the pub, although that may be nothing to be proud of it covered my drinks for the night..

"Wii Golf"--isn't that a game most frequently played after, and not before, putting down a number of pints? ;)

As I've noted elsewhere, 'tis a beautiful Chrysler Building you've done there, Tom.  I especially admire the way you've reduced what could be massive mapping distortion to an unnoticeable minimum on that spire.  Very nicely executed. :)

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

Thank you kindly. The mapping isn't quite accurate of course, I....errr...improved it. Yes, that's it, it's actually better than if I'd made it accurately. Seriously, I am quite pleased with the steeple/spire/top bit. The rest is pretty average and hastily done, but looks OK in game. I'm not 100% sure I have it scaled correctly in the game, but FF/ffv3r both have such weird scaling of buildings that it probably doesn't matter too much.
As for the Wii golf (Tiger Woods 08, to be precise), we played before, during and slightly after imbibing the nectar of incompetence. Plus you have to remember the tradition of 'the 19th hole'.

[style]

Let me get this straight before l get my hopes up. Will this awesome map just be for :ffvstr: ? Maybe I  I'm missing something here. :huh:

There will be, and already is, an FF version of the map. The troubles I am having is with version that is a hybrid of ff and ffv3r stuff. At some later date there will be (I hope) an FFv3R 'only' version which will use the slightly superior (IMO) FFv3R buildings only.
So there is an FF 'only' version.
There is an ff and ffv3r version featuring buildings and objects from both games.
There should be an FFv3r only version for those without any ff content at all.

Got Cha! :thumbup:

[cmdrkoenig67]

Tom...A while back, I tried to help Valandar with a giant map project of his(by placing buildings and such on it), but the map proved far too big (and it had nowhere the amount of stuff this one does) and wouldn't be usable/accessible in the Rumble/Danger Room. 

Yours may work, but I don't even think Val's map was as big as this one (and the one he made was huge).

This probably wasn't helpful, but I just thought I'd mention it.

Dana

Dana,
I'm not sure quite what you are saying the problem was with Val's map. When you say it wouldn't be usable/accessible in the danger room, did it crash the game, not load, prove impractical because it's size confounded the AI?
Because mine runs both as a mission and as a danger room level (only in FFv3R so far, havent tried in ff yet), though obviously it's relatively sparsely populated so far. And should it prove too big, I will simply trim bits off till it does work.

Goggles, I'll see if I can get a number for the shifts in x and y co-ordinates between blocks. Then it would be up to someone with some shreds of intelligence and programming and mathematical skill to write any putative programme, since that would most likely be far beyond my meager abilities.

I apologize for not getting back to you til now, Tom...If I recall, Val wasn't happy with the fact that parts of his map blacked out the further you moved from it (including objects).  Sounds like you have the same issue.

I had to recently reinstall all of my FF and FFVTTR stuff and I reinstalled his map too.  It does the same thing...But it does show up in the Rumble Room and it is playable...It's just impossible to see the end/horizon of the map from the middle, other side, etc...

Dana

[tommyboy]

I apologize for not getting back to you til now, Tom...If I recall, Val wasn't happy with the fact that parts of his map blacked out the further you moved from it (including objects).  Sounds like you have the same issue.

I had to recently reinstall all of my FF and FFVTTR stuff and I reinstalled his map too.  It does the same thing...But it does show up in the Rumble Room and it is playable...It's just impossible to see the end/horizon of the map from the middle, other side, etc...

Dana

Yes, what I call 'pop-up' (that a black 'curtain' appears over everything beyond a certain distance) is present, but I can and will live with it, since its a built in game limitation of the engine, as far as I can see.
Of course it's ugly (but so are the black skies of the original game), and I'd really like to see my skysphere, and navigate by sighting the ESB or Chrysler Building from a distance, or just to see a battle from fifteen blocks away, but there you are, the limit is there, and nobody ever accused me of being a perfectionist, so I'll make the map regardless.
Thanks for at least trying to warn me of it.

[Boalt92]

I apologize for not getting back to you til now, Tom...If I recall, Val wasn't happy with the fact that parts of his map blacked out the further you moved from it (including objects).  Sounds like you have the same issue.

I had to recently reinstall all of my FF and FFVTTR stuff and I reinstalled his map too.  It does the same thing...But it does show up in the Rumble Room and it is playable...It's just impossible to see the end/horizon of the map from the middle, other side, etc...

Dana

Yes, what I call 'pop-up' (that a black 'curtain' appears over everything beyond a certain distance) is present, but I can and will live with it, since its a built in game limitation of the engine, as far as I can see.
Of course it's ugly (but so are the black skies of the original game), and I'd really like to see my skysphere, and navigate by sighting the ESB or Chrysler Building from a distance, or just to see a battle from fifteen blocks away, but there you are, the limit is there, and nobody ever accused me of being a perfectionist, so I'll make the map regardless.
Thanks for at least trying to warn me of it.

I'm sure you already thought of this, but ....

Is there a way - via scripting or otherwise - to increase the camera's field of vision?  Kinda like a python telephoto lens?

Secondly, I'm not sure what the "visible" distance is, but it seems more realistic (I love using that term when discussing video games!) that you couldn't see the entire map;  no more than you could see across a real city.

IMHO as always.

B92

[tommyboy]

Actually, thats exactly my view, that if on one side of Manhattan you wouldn't be able to see to the other side, which is partly why it doesnt bug me too much.
As to getting around it, it seems pretty python independent to my ignorant eyes, but I'll poke around to see what I can find. I'm pretty sure that Valandar must have looked at this and not found a solution too, but I'll look at it anyway.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

I'd bet good money that SouperIan could hack--erm--fix this problem or, at the very least, verify that the problem cannot be fixed.

*illuminates the Soup Signal*
[spoiler][/spoiler]

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning

[tommyboy]

Ho hum, another day, another new york landmark:

[Core]

i cannot wait to play this map!

also, looking at all these screenshots makes me want to go back and play spider-man 2  :D

[tommyboy]

Sweet christmas! It's a work in progress! Imagine without the awning, and the streetlamp better placed, if you can,

[tommyboy]

Better, I think:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[stumpy]

I like that, especially the "HERO FOR HIRE" sign.  :cool:

[R.O.M]

these look great :thumbup:

[Lunarman]

Nice, Nice, Nice, Nice, Nice, Nice, Nice

Is there any word to describe your devilish doings apart from NICE!?

[tommyboy]

My post yesterday got eaten, so heres some more preview pics:
Another NY landmark
[spoiler][/spoiler]
and the right way round now...
[spoiler][/spoiler]
A placeholder fictional building
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[C4]

Wonderful stuff here Tommy. Really exciting.  :thumbup:

A lot of this stuff will be very useful to me in my modern mod. not the statue of liberty and chrysler building of course but those modern buildings, hmmmmm.....

[tommyboy]

And giving a sense of what's where, some long shots:
N.B. In all of these following shots 'south' is counter-intuitively placed at the top. I just rotated the view for these.
Visible clockwise: Chrysler Bldg, Empire state Bldg(only base visible), Baxter Bldg, Central Park, Avengers Mansion
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Barely visible: Doc Strange's Sanctum (middle block, third block down), Gem Theatre(2nd block from right, 2nd block up tiny yellow triangle), Baxter Bldg:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The ever popular Lady Liberty
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Visible Clockwise: One of the bridges (GW maybe?), Flatiron Bldg, Empire State Bldg, Chrysler Bldg, United Nations Complex.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So you can see how cramped it is, I'm afraid, but an accurate topography just isn't possible without dramatically increasing the size of the map, or splitting it into separate districts or neighbourhoods. And for now, neither of those is getting done.

[style]

Cramped is GOOD!!!! :thumbup: We love it TB! :wub:

[herodad1]

hey tommy,will people be walking around as well as cars driving?

[tommyboy]

hey tommy,will people be walking around as well as cars driving?

Probably not, because even with only a couple of civs on most blocks it causes a lot of slow down. You have about 150 city blocks in the map. So one civ per block is 150 characters before any super heroes show up. And less than one per block still leaves it feeling oddly deserted. I might trade one of the cars per block for a civ and see how that works out.
But bear in mind that anyone with the Editor will be able to add whatever they want to it, be that civs, thugs, dinos or just lots and lots of rats.

[Avalon]

Very awesome. I am excited about this.
You are missing the Daily Bugle building.
Great work on the Flatron and Chrysler buildings. I would just put like a few small crowds every so often. Also have a nice traffic jam in front of the chrysler building just to make it feel like home.

[Epimethee]

Great work, Tommy. :)

hey tommy,will people be walking around as well as cars driving?

Probably not, because even with only a couple of civs on most blocks it causes a lot of slow down. You have about 150 city blocks in the map. So one civ per block is 150 characters before any super heroes show up. And less than one per block still leaves it feeling oddly deserted. I might trade one of the cars per block for a civ and see how that works out.
But bear in mind that anyone with the Editor will be able to add whatever they want to it, be that civs, thugs, dinos or just lots and lots of rats.

I may be wrong about that, but IIRC there was a way to disable AIs outside the active zone. Can't find it for now, but at minimum, it should be possible to script it using AI_SetEnabled() or carOn() and regProximityEnter() or similar events.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

Very awesome. I am excited about this.
You are missing the Daily Bugle building.

I won't post my preview pics in Tom's thread to prove it, but rest assured that there will be a (destructible--sorry J.J. ;)) Daily Bugle building in the Manhattan map.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Fop o' th' Morning