Avengers

[tommyboy]

damn i knew i was behind on x-men but when did emma go evil again

In the Bendisverse all women are eeevil. Or driven insane by power they can't handle, or evil, insane and slutty. Or just slutty.
Not that he's a misogynist, oh, no. Far from it.

Ms. Marvel is none of those things written by Bendis and neither is Jessica Jones, Spider-Woman (before the big Skrull reveal), Black Widow, Wasp (except for that flashback), She-hulk, Emma Frost (who he writes as rather sharp and more in line with Morrison's changes), etc, etc...

That would be Jessica "@**l sex with Luke Cage whilst going out with Ant Man" Jones, would it?
And Spider Woman uses sex pheremones as her "power", nuff said. The Black Widow and Ms. marvel have no actual character, they are just....there, and basically do nothing. And who wrote the Wasp in flashback except his holiness, and also has her say or do nothing?
I don't have to prove that every single appearance by every single woman in his comics oozes contempt for women, my argument is that whenever a female character plays a large role they are evil, insane or there for sex (all three if it's Wanda). Or a plot device.
Or do you think that his charming little scene with Tigra being brutalized in her own home by the hood in New Avengers was the work of a feminist? Or the defile scenes by the Purple Man in Alias? Yeah, Brian loves the ladies.. :rolleyes:

[AfghanAnt]

That would be Jessica "@**l sex with Luke Cage whilst going out with Ant Man" Jones, would it?
And Spider Woman uses sex pheremones as her "power", nuff said. The Black Widow and Ms. marvel have no actual character, they are just....there, and basically do nothing. And who wrote the Wasp in flashback except his holiness, and also has her say or do nothing?
I don't have to prove that every single appearance by every single woman in his comics oozes contempt for women, my argument is that whenever a female character plays a large role they are evil, insane or there for sex (all three if it's Wanda). Or a plot device.
Or do you think that his charming little scene with Tigra being brutalized in her own home by the hood in New Avengers was the work of a feminist? Or the defile scenes by the Purple Man in Alias? Yeah, Brian loves the ladies.. :rolleyes:

Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.

SW's pheromone power was created by Chris Claremont. So if anyone is to blame it is him not Bendis for using the ability. Also how is this ability any different than say Wonder Woman animal ability because it is a woman subduing/manipulating a man rather than an animal? I just don't see how this is slutty or even seen as disrespectful.

You think Nat and Carol are background characters when written by Bendis? That's funny because it was Carol who held the team together during Lady Ultron's attack and Nat who take the helm at Shield when Carol and Tony were disable and both stepped up during the Invasion. Yes, neither lady is Ares with his yelling or Sentry with his whining, but Nat has always been the strong, silent type. I would think it was OOC if Nat just started being the foreground, throw down type instead of the cunning, smart, and able woman she is. Carol has always had issues (at least she's not a lying drunk anymore as Busiek and Perez depicted her).

Wasp was the whole reason, Ultron was a lady. It was Oedipus complex all over again and wasn't a reflection on Janet as all and to say other wise is like blaming a victim for a stalker's behavior. While I thought it was sort of lame, it was plausible and in Ultron's character. He did kidnap her and program Jocasta with her brain patterns. What has Tony or Simon done lately in Mighty for that matter? I have no idea why Sentry is even on the team. To cry? To have bad things happen that he fixes? If anything, Sentry is the flaw in Bendis' writing.

You are right, the way he handled Tigra was offensive on some levels but she did get revenge. As for Wanda, purely plot device driven. Magneto, Lorna, and Quicksilver have all gone evil or mad at times and I find it realistic that the supposedly level-headed Wanda broke down. It wasn't her first breakdown or her first time abusing her powers besides it did a lot of clean up in the mutant population and actually made the Avengers a number one title again.

Comics have always abused its female characters no matter how strong (not that it is right) so I think blaming Bendis is really unfair. Besides bad $#!% happens in comics all the time to men as well.

[Previsionary]

Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.

Hi, AA!

Have you met me? I put down Cyclops and Emma and their constant sex scenes/talk all the time (it actually annoys quite a few people). I'd do it for Wolverine as well if they showed up as frequently as Cyclops and Emma's do (every week). Everything else you said, I agree with. It's a societal flaw. I'd also like to point out that "sex/gender" pheromones is hardly unique. Longshot and Gambit have that as well. Well not pheromones...but having the ability to easily influence the opposite sex. But, Longshot was also called a "slut" (kinda) by Dazzler...which is funny.

[AfghanAnt]

Hi, AA!

Have you met me? I put down Cyclops and Emma and their constant sex scenes/talk all the time (it actually annoys quite a few people). I'd do it for Wolverine as well if they showed up as frequently as Cyclops and Emma's do (every week). Everything else you said, I agree with. It's a societal flaw. I'd also like to point out that "sex/gender" pheromones is hardly unique. Longshot and Gambit have that as well. Well not pheromones...but having the ability to easily influence the opposite sex. But, Longshot was also called a "slut" (kinda) by Dazzler...which is funny.

As they should be, his wife wasn't even dead and he was like "whatever, I've got a bitchy blonde now." In fact, Wolvie showed more mature love for Jean than Scott ever did. While I do blame Grant for this mess, Brubaker's constant sex scene between them is just...urgh. Do they do this to remind us, how boring Scott and Jean was?

I also find Longshot as a slut funny because he's so naive. I miss alien, dumb, uber-blond Longshot who was confused by Rogue's jealous and Dazzler's possessiveness. Speaking of Dazzler, does she even remember she loved Longshot anymore? Since her return, she has been kept extremely far from LS and it kind of sucks because it tells me that X-title relationship do not last.

[Podmark]

A couple of updates from my original post:

-I incorrectly listed Dave Finch as the artist of Dark Avengers. It is in fact Mike Deodato.

-Based on the latest solicits it appears Huberto Ramos will be the new artist on Avengers: The Initiative.

Not sure how I feel about Ramos on A:TI. It's one of my favorite books right now, but Ramos is an artist who at his worst I find his art infuriating, but at it's best I like it. Problem is I find he usually hits both extremes in every issue. I have a real love/hate relationship with him.

[AfghanAnt]

A couple of updates from my original post:

-I incorrectly listed Dave Finch as the artist of Dark Avengers. It is in fact Mike Deodato.

Deodato? Really? That's kind of disappointing. I find his work hit and miss. And it really going to be called Dark Avengers?

While I do not like Ramos' work on Runaways (his art is killing my love for the title), I don't think he'll be a bad fit for A:IT if it looks like his Carey's X-Men run.

[Podmark]

Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg

[AfghanAnt]

Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg

I just posted that same image!

[Previsionary]

Ramos? Eh. Deodato? Uh. That picture disturbs me because I'm tired of female versions of old characters. We already went through this trend once. CREATE NEW CHARACTERS, MARVEL! If you want a female villain/hero so bad...create new ones without ties to already established heroes and villains. Gah.

[AfghanAnt]

Ramos? Eh. Deodato? Uh. That picture disturbs me because I'm tired of female versions of old characters. We already went through this trend once. CREATE NEW CHARACTERS, MARVEL! If you want a female villain/hero so bad...create new ones without ties to already established heroes and villains. Gah.

For some reason reading you comment made me think of FemDrOct...what the f? Just what the f?

[murs47]

What if Marvel started making male versions of female characters instead?

[Previsionary]

Im tired of gender swaps. That covers that. :P

Besides, that's been done also. Sunfire in Exiles. Mystique in Exiles. And for another male/fem swap...cyclops in Exiles. Hrm...claremont's last few storylines did this a lot actually. :P

ETA: and if ya don't count Sunfire...there's always Namora. ^^

[AfghanAnt]

Im tired of gender swaps. That covers that. :P

Besides, that's been done also. Sunfire in Exiles. Mystique in Exiles. And for another male/fem swap...cyclops in Exiles. Hrm...claremont's last few storylines did this a lot actually. :P

I think the ultimate Claremont comic would be every male character was a woman with quasi-homosexual relations with other female characters as they fight crime heroically but still lay a smack down with Goddess-like might. What happened to him? He was once a really good writer.

[tommyboy]

Okey dokey...

Maybe we have a difference opinion on what "slutty" is. Jess was a single woman at the time and how different was her behavior from the average, single New York woman (or man for that matter)? I never understand how women are slutty for sexual experimenting or being forward while characters like Wolverine and even Cyclops get a slap on the wrist and wink at their sexual encounters (psychic cheating is cheating). I think Jess' character since her relationship with Luke and birth has made her mature and I live her for interactions with Luke regarding their family and superheroing because she is the voice of reason.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Jones was dating Scott Lang whilst sleeping with Cage on the side, which is writing her as slutty, (just as it would be for a male character, but Bendis' males don't do that stuff). Her 'character' has only ever been a cheap knock-off of Spiderwoman anyway, because originally Marvel would not let him write Spiderwoman doing what Jones did/does. Since Cyclop's and Wolverine's sex lives are not written by Bendis, I don't think it relevant to discussing his portrayal of women, any more than my citing plot points from Moby Dick would be.

SW's pheromone power was created by Chris Claremont. So if anyone is to blame it is him not Bendis for using the ability. Also how is this ability any different than say Wonder Woman animal ability because it is a woman subduing/manipulating a man rather than an animal? I just don't see how this is slutty or even seen as disrespectful.

Was that power created by Claremont? because I thought she was created by Archie Goodwin, with that power. Perhaps you are right and Claremont added it later. I know nothing of "Wonder Woman animal ability", but given her past associations with bondage symbolism, you really are making my case for me. But again, Wonder Woman is not and never has been written by Bendis, so is not really relevant to the discussion. The point is that of the half-dozen "Spider-Woman" characters Bendis could have chosen to use, he brings back the one with the sex-pheremones, rather than, say, Arachne, who actually was an Avenger already. It (sex pheremone) is a lame power whoever has it, and a lamer writer who wants to use it. Remember, my argument is not that Bendis is the ONLY bad, borderline misogynist writer in comics, just that he's the main one at Marvel today. Coming up with examples of bad writing by others doesn't actually weaken my case at all, especially when Bendis chooses to perpetuate others' bad ideas that degrade women, as he has with Wanda (Byrnes crazy witch) and Spiderwoman (mmm...sex pheremones).

You think Nat and Carol are background characters when written by Bendis? That's funny because it was Carol who held the team together during Lady Ultron's attack and Nat who take the helm at Shield when Carol and Tony were disable and both stepped up during the Invasion. Yes, neither lady is Ares with his yelling or Sentry with his whining, but Nat has always been the strong, silent type. I would think it was OOC if Nat just started being the foreground, throw down type instead of the cunning, smart, and able woman she is. Carol has always had issues (at least she's not a lying drunk anymore as Busiek and Perez depicted her).

If you want Black Widow out of character lets discuss the stupidity of her using guns rather than her Widows Bite, or Widow's line or gas bombs.
Or let's not, because if it works for you that after forty years a character who has never used guns suddenly starts, (and the whole Black Widow Spider powers motif is rather thrown away by gun usage, unless there is an Uzi-spider I'm unaware of) then good for you.
You see the female 'avengers' as strong and effective, I see both 'avengers' groups as totally ineffectual, male and female alike. They generally take six months to accomplish nothing. All are there to showcase Bendis talking to himself. At length.

Wasp was the whole reason, Ultron was a lady. It was Oedipus complex all over again and wasn't a reflection on Janet as all and to say other wise is like blaming a victim for a stalker's behavior. While I thought it was sort of lame, it was plausible and in Ultron's character. He did kidnap her and program Jocasta with her brain patterns. What has Tony or Simon done lately in Mighty for that matter? I have no idea why Sentry is even on the team. To cry? To have bad things happen that he fixes? If anything, Sentry is the flaw in Bendis' writing.

Well, I'm no expert on Greek tragedy, but I'm pretty sure that Oedipus didn't actually try to become his mother, so either you and Bendis both need to read (or re-read) that story, or stop trying to pass off "lets have a hot nekkid chick villain" as some sort of classical literary allusion. That sort of lazy ignorance I expect of Bendis, it's one of his trademarks. I expect a little better of you, AA.
The original Jocasta story you mention actually was an Oedipus allegory, and of course that was not written by Bendis. Your questions as to the male 'avengers' echo my earlier mention of the whole lots' uselessness.

You are right, the way he handled Tigra was offensive on some levels but she did get revenge. As for Wanda, purely plot device driven. Magneto, Lorna, and Quicksilver have all gone evil or mad at times and I find it realistic that the supposedly level-headed Wanda broke down. It wasn't her first breakdown or her first time abusing her powers besides it did a lot of clean up in the mutant population and actually made the Avengers a number one title again.

What revenge did Tigra get? I don't recall the Hood being humiliated in his underwear in his house by a jeering group of men whilst the image was transmitted for others to leer over. It was a nasty, repulsive, small minded bit of trash writing that was offensive on pretty much every level. And other than showing up to be boinked by the skrull Hank Pym (another abuse of a female character), what else has Bendis had Tigra do?
And if you think his portrayal of Wanda the crazy witch was the writing of a man who likes and respects women, well, I give up, I really do.

Comics have always abused its female characters no matter how strong (not that it is right) so I think blaming Bendis is really unfair. Besides bad $#!% happens in comics all the time to men as well.

Of course it's fair to blame someone for doing something you disapprove of! And citing other writers is no defense of Bendis. I don't give a rat's elbow if every other comic has been wrong, that does not make his comics right. He may not have started it, but he's the best selling protagonist of it.

But I could be way off base in my interpretation of his work, and he's actually the most feminist writer in comics today. But I doubt that.

[AfghanAnt]

He may not have started it, but he's the best selling protagonist of it.

See that is what I think this whole conversation boils down for me: it is about selling comics. Death, shock, confusion, misdirection, sex, these things sell comics and Bendis is smart enough to figure that out. No, I'm not one of those people who want vulgar comics but I do want realistic depictions of comics characters and not have everyone smiling after the beat up the bad guy.

With that aside, while I respect all of your points regarding Bendis, I personally don't think he's being misogynistic. I also think you are attacking a writer because of the behavior of his characters. While you think all the characters are in fact Bendis, I think the only characters in the Avengers comics that reads like who Bendis (based on interviews and discussion forums) really is  is Jessica Jones. I feel he speaks through her and even though you seem to think she is a slut because she was dating Antman and had sex with Luke, I can tell you that happens (a lot). People make mistakes and if heroes are suppose to be people I expect them to be as flawed if not more so (they wear costumes and beat each other up every time a villain isn't around) than myself.

As for the Hood's actions, he's a supervillain. They are evil. If he had done the same actions to a male character it would not have the impact or it would have been seen as the male victim being "weak" and "getting his butt kicked". So either way, I am sure people would have complained.

Also, wow...you got a little personal over fictional situations and characters, I would not like to discuss political, religion, or some combo of the two with you ever.

One more thing, I think comparing what other writers have done is valid because comic writers build on what others have written (which is why I made the points I did). Yes, Nat has in the past shown to use her spider-weapons rather than guns and Ultron was never a naked lady but did you ever think that was the artist (who is notorious for his depiction of women). So is Frank Cho a misogynist as well? I would say the opposite, he loves the woman form which is why he draws it so often and so curvy. The same with gay artists (Joe Phillips comes to mind). So I think calling Bendis a bad writer because of (no doubt) artist request (he did request Leisure suit Wondy) is out of line.

[herodad1]

i know this is going in another direction but it is an avengers topic/question but what was you guy's favorite line up?one of my favorites was in the 80's( i think) when the gov. limited their membership to 7 members and a couple alternates.the team was ironman as chairman then there was cap, scarlet witch,ms.marvel, vision, falcon, beast, and scarlet witch.wasp and wonderman were also hanging out with them as alternates.a good mix of characters and not to powerful but enough to get the job done.hawkeye was also with them.

[Talavar]

It's interesting that you bring up female Loki.  That's a character I look at and think, gee, it's too bad they took Loki and changed him to be a female character-cliche.

How so?

The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly?  It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc.  All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.

[Podmark]

i know this is going in another direction but it is an avengers topic/question but what was you guy's favorite line up?one of my favorites was in the 80's( i think) when the gov. limited their membership to 7 members and a couple alternates.the team was ironman as chairman then there was cap, scarlet witch,ms.marvel, vision, falcon, beast, and scarlet witch.wasp and wonderman were also hanging out with them as alternates.a good mix of characters and not to powerful but enough to get the job done.hawkeye was also with them.

I unno, probably the Busiek/Perez team. That was the first one I ever read and is usually the one I most associate with the Avengers. Plus it had Firestar and Justice, probably my favorite comic couple.

[AfghanAnt]

The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly?  It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc.  All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.

While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.

I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.

[Silver Shocker]

The universe needs a good reboot.

I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.

[thanoson]

Just 2 words for ya: Heroes Reborn. :P

[AfghanAnt]

Anyone reading Marvel Adventure: Avengers? It is actually really refreshing.

[Epimethee]

The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly?  It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc.  All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.

While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.

I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.

IIRC, in mythology, Loki was said as occasionally shape-changing into a woman (say, to learn Balder's weakness) or another female creature (such as a mare, under which form Loki mothered Sleipnir) .

[Talavar]

The stereotypical secretive female plotter who's "too weak" to fight her opponent openly or directly?  It's a character-type that's as old as the hills: biblical Jezebel and Delilah, Norse Hel, Greek Hera, etc.  All those characters pre-suppose that a woman can't directly oppose her male counterpart, and while that may have always been true of Marvel's interpretation of Loki (Thor always wins in the end, right?), deciding "eh, Loki might as well be a girl then" rubs me the wrong way.

While I would completely agree with you normally, I think the fact that in Norse myth Loki has been such an ambiguous character that this seems natural and normal to me.

I honestly thought you were going to point out some Marvel supervillain stereotypes.

IIRC, in mythology, Loki was said as occasionally shape-changing into a woman (say, to learn Balder's weakness) or another female creature (such as a mare, under which form Loki mothered Sleipnir) .

Very true - and if it was just Loki deciding to be female him/herself for whatever reason, I'd be okay with it.  The current situation however, is that Loki's stuck as a female due to the manipulation of some higher power, and it's been presented like some sort of punishment - and that rubs me the wrong way.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Another Avengers related tidbit I'll throw up here:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/WhoIsTheNewBlackPanther.jpg

Hmmmmm...makes me want to throw up too...LOL.

Dana

[Epimethee]

Very true - and if it was just Loki deciding to be female him/herself for whatever reason, I'd be okay with it.  The current situation however, is that Loki's stuck as a female due to the manipulation of some higher power, and it's been presented like some sort of punishment - and that rubs me the wrong way.

:blink: Ooookay... Now I understand. It looks indeed to be of dubious taste. Don't Marvel editors, when judging ideas like this, ask themselves if the story would be acceptable if the group represented was replaced by Jews or Afro-Americans? (Apparently not. Or they just don't care.)

[bredon7777]

The universe needs a good reboot.

I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.

Well, I think that one of the big reasons OMD was such a dismal mess was that it was only a partial reboot.  Had the entire MU been rebooted, there would've been no need to make that silly deal with Mephisto.  I think a full reboot would be much less controversial then selectively rebooting parts of the MU.

[Podmark]

The universe needs a good reboot.

I'm kinda surprised noone brought up Spider-Man in reference to this. The discussion mostly went in a different direction.
Anyway, Spider-Man's corner of the Marvel U just had a reboot, and look how the fandom handed that. It's been a huge topic of debate (to be fair, a big part of that was OMD, but there are lots of people who hate BND as well, and it's BND that's the new status quo). Can you imagine the far outcry that would result from the entire Marvel Universe being rebooted? It'd presumably be the OMD/BND debacle multiplied several times over. Even if it was a "good" reboot, it wouldn't please everyone, because, well, that just doesn't happen that often. Especially when you have a huge shared universe like Marvel or DC.

Well, I think that one of the big reasons OMD was such a dismal mess was that it was only a partial reboot.  Had the entire MU been rebooted, there would've been no need to make that silly deal with Mephisto.  I think a full reboot would be much less controversial then selectively rebooting parts of the MU.

Yeah the OMD retcon was lame, but there's no way I want a whole universe reboot.


Some more Avengers: The Initiative news. Christos Gage confirmed that Ramos is on the book for at least a full arc. I think the number were 21-25.

[Previsionary]

haven't they tried a full line reboot. I think the name was...Heroes: Reborn. ^^

[thanoson]

Hey, was nobody listening when I said that 1st? Sheesh! It's like I'm invisible or something.