Not even a fresh idea of course but one I thought we should bat around again. Obviously I'm talking about making a new Freedom Force game engine right from the ground up. I know we got the talent to pull it off easy here. So this is for putting down the rough draft and what it would need to have/should have. Even if it never comes to be and we just have a fantasy discussion. Right off the top of my head I'm thinking we'd want the most up to date Netimmerse graphics and such. Also being able to use any older format would be cool, like you could just stick :ff: and :ffvstr: things in it fine. Maybe some more right in game editor capacity. Just to start things off. Let's spread some imagination jam! :lol:
I feel like Unity would be the most accessible engine, since it's free, is it compatible with Gamebryo stuff at all?
I was looking at the Gamebryo page, and they offer a free trial, but we would need to license something for a bigger project.
What would people want out of a newer engine anyway?
A sandbox mode? The ability to map controls to a controller? Easier to produce mods? Metadata for hero files?
I was thinking Unity as well. That also gives easy access to mobile. It is compatible. I don't understand the specifics, yet, but in extraction I've found mobile games that are Unity engine based but also contain many different format types. As well Nif is a relatively easy format to convert to other types these days (to think how difficult it was about a decade ago?). Really that's more beyond me and something our talented scripters would know better though.
Sandbox mode is nice. I also think extended genre options, like racing, fighting, so on. A big need I would want to see is the ability to spawn self contained games for the designer, a step up from mods in other words. Even better if they could be shared via android and such. Much more cumbersome design ability for animations of course, that's long overdue. Like an actual in game character studio.
I like where this is going already, can't wait to see this pages deep.
I've always wanted to see a "Capture the Flag" Mode in FF. I wonder if this is possible with Unity?
Wasn't Bearded trying something like this awhile back using Unity?
Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken, there was a thread floating around which contained an executable file.
The thread with the exe is entitled "Something Big" and is either on the first or second page of this section. Would've linked but am on phone.
This is something that I've been pondering for a loooong time. There are so many features that I would like to adjust/change completely and I have a Lynda account so that I can learn how to use Unity (which I've had some practice with for my CS Capstone Project).
It's just a matter of time, really. I've been really busy, but in my free time, I've been learning how to use GIMP (why is Photoshop so expensive!?!), Blender, and Unity in hopes for creating a re-vitalized FF game.
As for the Bearded thread, yeah, he had some interesting projects in the works and I would have loved to see more of them.
Bearded was the inspiration yeah. But I'm convinced we could all work as a team together on something. I mean I seriously have no doubt in my mind that this community could form an actual game company and produce a quality game for that matter. After all it's really what we already do anyways. For that matter if a new engine needs a working title I'm suggesting Freedom Reborn right out the gate of course. Love the ideas so far BTW.
...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 02, 2017, 08:47:16 PM
...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....
You mean you weren't planning to?
Quote from: daglob on May 02, 2017, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 02, 2017, 08:47:16 PM
...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....
You mean you weren't planning to?
:huh:
Your statement almost sounds like you were not planning on skinning again; re-reading it you just mean in this instance. Sorry.
No excuse; the meds have worn off and it's time for more...
I'm interested! For years, I've been hoping some other game would offer appropriate modding hooks to make this easier than basically starting from scratch, but so far no luck. Using Unity (or, depending on the design goal, something cruder) seems indeed the best bet.
FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.
1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.
3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else
4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun
5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- Very easily moddable
- As completely moddable as possible
- ...
6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills
- Time
- Collaboration experience
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.) ;)
7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources)
b) closed source (easier to monetize to attract and retain pro collaborators; paid access to some unique resources)
8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]
9.What are the potential development platforms?
a) Vendor solution (Unity 3D)
- Unified out-of-the-box solution
- Professional quality
- Professional difficulty
- Limited transferable skills
b) HTML-based solution
- Different unmatched parts, harder to integrate
- More limited sophistication
- Easier to get involved -Very transferable skills
c) Modding an existing project
- Easiest entry
- Very limited scope
- Extremely limited transferable skills
10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!
11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
Quote from: Epimethee on May 06, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
1. What is our main design goal?
d) All of the above If it's at all Possible
2. How can we achieve it?
c) I'm not the most Tech-Savvy Person, but I'm trying to learn as I go. I'd say, maybe start with the Tech we have, and then upgrade as we're able.
3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
e) All of the above
4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun
a) Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun Yup, what you said :D
5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- As completely moddable as possible
6. Who can contribute what?
- Skills My limited Skoping, Skinning, and FX Making Skills are available
- Time Time is going to decrease, but what I have, I will freely give
- Collaboration experience Most of what I do here is the result of collaboration
7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources) If we can get something together, Id say go open source first. If it works out, then maybe go another route.
8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
These are the ones that would keep it Moddable, right? I only do Windows, so I'm not familiar with anything else.
9.What are the potential development platforms?
d) Um, huh???
10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!
a) There are a lot of options, personally, I'd try Google Docs first, since it has such a variety of ways to let us collaborate.
11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
a) With all of us having so many other responsibilities outside of FR, I don't know if putting a timeline on this is a good idea.
I want an even more powerful and user-friendly way to create missions.
Quote from: Epimethee on May 06, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.
1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
For most of the FF mechanics, I think the game plays very nicely, but there are more customization features that I would like to bring back from FF1 (like AD's with HP) and other things that I would like to change (e.g. Mental and Mystical damage being a thing)
2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.
Kind of a combo for me. I'd love to learn how to use new tools, but at the same time, I am not a AAA developer, so the lower tech approach would probably be a more viable route for me.
3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else
Renew the FF game's mechanics and modding capabilities. A character creator would be nice to have as long as an exporter so people can download their characters and modify them even more with whatever modelling tool they'd like (within the model file's type limitations, of course)
4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun
Inspiring creativity and providing each player with tools that will allow them to create the hero that they've always wanted to see
5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- Very easily moddable
- As completely moddable as possible
- ...
The ability to customize powers just like the FF games have allowed us to do, but with more options like the Mental and Mystical damage capabilities that I mentioned earlier. I have plenty more ideas, but power customization and character creation are my big two.
6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills Comfortable with various code languages and I have dabbled in Unity, so I at least understand the basic layout of the program
- Time Might be a bit tough to fit this project in on the weekdays, but weekends I typically have free (for the most part)
- Collaboration experience Like teamwork? I'm comfortable with working groups ^_^
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.) ;)
I'll add more later; gotta go :P
7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources)
b) closed source (easier to monetize to attract and retain pro collaborators; paid access to some unique resources)
8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]
9.What are the potential development platforms?
a) Vendor solution (Unity 3D)
- Unified out-of-the-box solution
- Professional quality
- Professional difficulty
- Limited transferable skills
b) HTML-based solution
- Different unmatched parts, harder to integrate
- More limited sophistication
- Easier to get involved -Very transferable skills
c) Modding an existing project
- Easiest entry
- Very limited scope
- Extremely limited transferable skills
10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!
11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
Will it be used for a possible Freedom Force 3 (fan project)?
Quote from: Epimethee on May 06, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
I go with all the above?
2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.
Lower tech is probably the cheaper way right now...
3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else
Uhhhh......
6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills
- Time
- Collaboration experience
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.) ;)
We all know what my skills and collab experience is but time constraints are closing in on me with two day jobs and mounting RPG contract work...
8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]
A and B are probably the best
11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
Whenever I run out of booze?
Quote from: Neros Urameshi on May 08, 2017, 08:08:16 PM
Will it be used for a possible Freedom Force 3 (fan project)?
Hypothetically... but that seems a wee bit ambitious given the current size of the FR community. A smaller scope might be less of a moonshot.
Well put and here's someone who has it all together.
Quote from: Epimethee on May 06, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.
1. What is our main design goal?
Given the amount of time put into what we've all done here and how Freedom Force, in fact noting the Nif format has organically evolved into it's own beast I think this one is a little more complex than all that. The design goal would be to recapture the accessible modding/creation engine we've played with for years as it is the foundation that has kept this going to date, and really quoting old and new members there's never been one quite like it. It however is out of date and lacks modern aesthetics as well is locked in a static format so needs to be upgraded visually and opened up to modern formats. I'd think in one hand we want it to be convenient to us and give us the things we always wanted but didn't have in the engine but in the other also make it cumbersome and appealing to anyone who never stepped foot inside our modding circle nor our sisterhoods, hence the suggestion for in game editors. In the former I'd think it imperative that our previous works (nif) be incorporated though probably more fitting convertible to the new. Naturally no one wants to lose the volume of their works, a hindrance already presented between both games despite workarounds.
2. How can we achieve it?
As far as the tech end is concerned Unity pretty much opens up both to us so that's covered. Else I'd think we'd want it open to any, again as well to other sister game modders already working elsewhere with the Nif formats.
3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
d) Legacy. Reaching the absolute zenith of everything any of us has learned, applied and worked together on and letting it run free in the world.
4. What is our design philosophy?
Evolution.
5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- As completely moddable as possible <---
6. Who can contribute what?
I think the forum is pretty much a dossier of this already, just a matter of when and whom has the time or inclination. As well the web itself in other communities and more in the general gaming mod arenas. There's clearly tons of interest in development out there and we all know people, a little handing out business cards goes a long way.
7. What kind of licence would the project have?
Open without a doubt.
8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
Mutliplatform but mobile centric is pretty much the standard of times and the next gen.
9.What are the potential development platforms?
Not my fortay so whatever is concluded to best meet our goals by those with an exact understanding of that.
10.How would we work together?
We already do now so par the course. I figure if we can do what we have already been doing than it should be just as easy to transition, added this would probably give everyone a much need spark.
11. What would be the timeline?
All the above really but more trend just as we have now, so organically. It seems to me our output and growth in this community seems to work on it's own clock regardless anyways, another really cool thing about what we have here when you reflect on it as a side note.
Off the top of my head anyways.
Quote3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
d) Legacy. Reaching the absolute zenith of everything any of us has learned, applied and worked together on and letting it run free in the world.
But..but..I thought I already had a legacy..... :P
Quote from: detourne_me on May 01, 2017, 10:23:40 AM
I feel like Unity would be the most accessible engine, since it's free, is it compatible with Gamebryo stuff at all?
I was looking at the Gamebryo page, and they offer a free trial, but we would need to license something for a bigger project.
What would people want out of a newer engine anyway?
A sandbox mode? The ability to map controls to a controller? Easier to produce mods? Metadata for hero files?
Man all I want is different gamplay I have been asking for years.I skin Mesh Skope Map you name it but I dont play because no offense to those of you that like it but I hate RPG.
I cant do the stop and choose it just takes me out of the game.
Id rather a first person or second perspective and play like behind the character nonstop sort of like the Batman Arkum series.
Quote from: Cyber Burn on May 06, 2017, 09:32:35 PM
7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources) If we can get something together, Id say go open source first. If it works out, then maybe go another route.
The point of open source is that it stays open source. But since we wouldn't be starting from scratch, the license would depend on what building blocks we use.
Quote8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
These are the ones that would keep it Moddable, right? I only do Windows, so I'm not familiar with anything else.
Those two and Linux would be the most obvious, but it depends how the modding system is set up. If we were to use a partially or fully web-based system, many platforms would be mod-friendly to some degree.
Quote10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!
a) There are a lot of options, personally, I'd try Google Docs first, since it has such a variety of ways to let us collaborate.
Good idea. We need to go further than this, though. Even for a one-person team, version control is now a prerequisite. Doing the project as open source would give us access to GitHub, for example.
Quote11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
a) With all of us having so many other responsibilities outside of FR, I don't know if putting a timeline on this is a good idea.
I'm as overworked as the next guy/gal, but if we intend to deliver something at some point, it's a necessity. Timelines do evolve, of course.
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 07, 2017, 12:58:39 AM
I want an even more powerful and user-friendly way to create missions.
+1
I'd avoid VR because the tech is very new, there isn't a definete code language that works with all VR components (some games only work with Rift, ect), and the cost of it makes it a niche group of gamers right now. As for web-based, with the current rash of viral breakouts I'm a bit hesitant of going that route. I think Windows, Mac, and Linux or Mobile are our best moves.
Quote from: spydermann93 on May 07, 2017, 04:52:06 AM
1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
For most of the FF mechanics, I think the game plays very nicely, but there are more customization features that I would like to bring back from FF1 (like AD's with HP) and other things that I would like to change (e.g. Mental and Mystical damage being a thing)
I'll take it as an a)! ;) But we shouldn't downplay how hard this would be. Recreating FF isn't the same as recreating Pong. And right now, I, for one, certainly wouldn't be able to recreate Pong without following a tutorial.
Quote3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else
Renew the FF game's mechanics and modding capabilities. A character creator would be nice to have as long as an exporter so people can download their characters and modify them even more with whatever modelling tool they'd like (within the model file's type limitations, of course)
A character creator/viewer is a fundamental part of the FF experience. This might help us define the first minimum viable product.
Quote6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills Comfortable with various code languages and I have dabbled in Unity, so I at least understand the basic layout of the program
Very good!
Quote- Collaboration experience Like teamwork? I'm comfortable with working groups ^_^
Like working on a team for building something, where individual creative control has to be limited ("great feature/art, but it doesn't fit the game concept, sorry") and a work method followed ("great feature/art, but it doesn't follow our production guidelines; we can't accept it until you redo it to standards"). Just speaking from my experience (professionally and from working on FFX etc.): This is hard, frustrating, and could turn off talented collaborators, but otherwise, the project ends up being a mess.
One thing we have to really worry with is the fact Irrational still owns the rights to FF. If we go thru with this, we could end up with legal problems...or something. Just being safe on this...
Quote from: SickAlice on May 10, 2017, 04:45:11 PM
b]1. What is our main design goal?[/b]
Given the amount of time put into what we've all done here and how Freedom Force, in fact noting the Nif format has organically evolved into it's own beast I think this one is a little more complex than all that. The design goal would be to recapture the accessible modding/creation engine we've played with for years as it is the foundation that has kept this going to date, and really quoting old and new members there's never been one quite like it. It however is out of date and lacks modern aesthetics as well is locked in a static format so needs to be upgraded visually and opened up to modern formats. I'd think in one hand we want it to be convenient to us and give us the things we always wanted but didn't have in the engine but in the other also make it cumbersome and appealing to anyone who never stepped foot inside our modding circle nor our sisterhoods, hence the suggestion for in game editors. In the former I'd think it imperative that our previous works (nif) be incorporated though probably more fitting convertible to the new. Naturally no one wants to lose the volume of their works, a hindrance already presented between both games despite workarounds.
I agree as completely as my extremely limited understanding of meshing. The work done by this community is huge and wonderful, but the FF mesh format wasn't cutting-edge for 2001... If we can have something more modular and open (and allowing better visuals), it could make creating new content easier and offer wider possibilities.
Quote2. How can we achieve it?
As far as the tech end is concerned Unity pretty much opens up both to us so that's covered. Else I'd think we'd want it open to any, again as well to other sister game modders already working elsewhere with the Nif formats.
If you or someone else could explore this aspect in Unity (insert puppy-eyed "pleeease"), that'd go a long way toward getting started on the right path.
Quote5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- As completely moddable as possible <---
I don't think you'd get much disagreement from the remaining FR members. :cool:
Quote6. Who can contribute what?
I think the forum is pretty much a dossier of this already, just a matter of when and whom has the time or inclination. As well the web itself in other communities and more in the general gaming mod arenas. There's clearly tons of interest in development out there and we all know people, a little handing out business cards goes a long way.
Love the attitude! :thumbup:
Quote10.How would we work together?
We already do now so par the course. I figure if we can do what we have already been doing than it should be just as easy to transition, added this would probably give everyone a much need spark.
The thing is, this project, even in a limited form, would probably be much more complex (i.e., many vastly different parts—requiring varied expertise—working together correctly) than anything else done in this community. Mind you, FFX, which has its share of connected parts, was more or less developed in isolation, but it still required major commitments from many people (I spent let's say a couple thousand hours on it, and I wasn't a key contributor). In the end, one of the many reasons it stopped getting updates was that it had become too complicated to update easily or to entice new collaborators.
The point is not that we have to get hyper-organized from to start this, of course. :) In fact, having different people working on early working prototypes of
their vision might be best, the "see what sticks to the wall" approach dear to Google etc. However, at some point, if we want to reach the larger goal, a bit more organization would be needed.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 14, 2017, 11:08:56 PM
I'd avoid VR because the tech is very new, there isn't a definete code language that works with all VR components (some games only work with Rift, ect), and the cost of it makes it a niche group of gamers right now. As for web-based, with the current rash of viral breakouts I'm a bit hesitant of going that route. I think Windows, Mac, and Linux or Mobile are our best moves.
I wasn't quite serious (as a Canadian, I really should have mentioned Blackberry instead). It'd be nice to do, but it's a completely different ballgame, and currently a rather costly one.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 15, 2017, 12:14:25 AM
One thing we have to really worry with is the fact Irrational still owns the rights to FF. If we go thru with this, we could end up with legal problems...or something. Just being safe on this...
Excellent point. In fact, since Irrational doesn't exist anymore at all, I don't think we'd get much leniency at all from the IP owners, 2K, and its lawyer department.
As importantly, creator respect is clearly one of FR's pillars; doing a complete ripoff of the game which made this very community possible would be quite the betrayal.
Of course, this shouldn't prevent someone from modding this hypothetical new game into an homage to FF.
Actually, Emp, Irrational does exist, they returned a few years ago with the most recent Bioshock game. From what I've read, the group still holds FF's rights, not 2K. That could've changed but I'm unsure.
Irrational reformed under the name Ghost Story or some such. I need to hit some of my buddies to make sure who owns FF rights for sure.
Most consider Irrational dissolved. The vast majority of the studio was laid off with just a handful of people left. It is arguable if you can call the few people left the same studio or not.
Sorry for spamming this thread...
I didn't want to give my take on the points I put forward right away to avoid influencing our reflection too much. Still, that doesn't mean I get to avoid the exercise, does it? :unsure:
Quote
1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above
c), as it's more to my interests and because doing a) or b) would probably be way more difficult. However, thinking about it further, thanks to the previous replies, I guess starting small and modular should change our initial focus to a character viewer/editor (and, say, plug in a second character and a basic dialog system and a basic dice-based "combat" and you've got a full, if limited game).
Quote2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developing new skills and by trying to attract fewer but more qualified collaborators.
I wouldn't bet the project development on attracting hypothetical collaborators. Still, the underlying question is the one of tools... Can we find something both easy enough and offering high enough quality/production value?
Quote3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else
b), especially if we were to use web technologies.
Quote4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun
Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun ;)
Quote5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- Very easily moddable
- As completely moddable as possible
- ...
Very
easily moddable, rather than more completely but in a more complex way.
Quote6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills
- Time
- Collaboration experience
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.) ;)
- Skills : Good at interface design (been doing it for a living for almost 20 years for the web and mobile, specializing mostly on UX, i.e., structure and behaviour). Some limited coding experience, mostly with Python and HTML/CSS/JS. Some 2D illustration experience, but it's been a loooong while. Some project management experience, even if I don't enjoy it. Some plot writing experience. A little (very little) level-editing expertise. No meshing, character animation, English-language speech (I have an accent), music composing or sound design chops.
- Time : Here lies the rub (as for many of us). Basically part of the weekend only, so on average, 3-8 hours a week.
- Collaboration experience : I'm working within teams (sometimes leading part of it) on web/mobile design, mostly in person, but sometimes remotely. Also collaborating on a couple novels.
- Other resources : Hmm... I guess that if things were to go very well, I could find some gaming professionals, as I'm in Montréal (for ex., one of our former art directors took a job with the local Unity 3D office).
Quote7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources)
b) closed source (easier to monetize to attract and retain pro collaborators; paid access to some unique resources)
I vastly prefer open source, but the tools might dictate what licence we need to take anyway.
Quote8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]
Mac first, as that's what I'm using. Windows, as that's what most of us here (and the world over) use. The web, because that's what I work with every day, know best and because it's the platform of the present and the future. iOS/Android would be nice to have, but could be served with web tech. Board games, only in conjunction with mobile. Don't care about consoles, and it's about impossible for amateur devs.
Quote9.What are the potential development platforms?
a) Vendor solution (Unity 3D)
- Unified out-of-the-box solution
- Professional quality
- Professional difficulty
- Limited transferable skills
b) HTML-based solution
- Different unmatched parts, harder to integrate
- More limited sophistication
- Easier to get involved -Very transferable skills
c) Modding an existing project
- Easiest entry
- Very limited scope
- Extremely limited transferable skills
I've looked into this a bit more since. On the vendor-solution front, Unity 3D does seem like the best solution, as competitors are either too platform-centric (Apple's Gamekit, for ex.), too limited (Game Maker), too much high-end (Unreal) or lack sufficient support and documentation (Godot).
On the HTML front, things are evolving at an amazing pace, and things unthinkable two years ago are now practical: The Babylon.js gaming framework, for example, allows to import 3D models and offers native-quality renderings. However 3D HTML game development isn't mature enough at this point, given our lack of expertise.
So, I've gone back to Unity, and kicked its tires a bit. While I'm not loving it (...yet?), it certainly looks solid and well-documented and supports a rich ecosystem. It remains to be seen how hard making something other than a basic demo is, and how much flexibility it offers, but it's probably our best bet!
Quote10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!
My suggestions: Adopt a clear decision process, define together clear and easy goals, standardize the way we deliver content where absolutely necessary and adopt a few web-based tools. For sharing assets and code, GitHub (if open source, otherwise BitBucket). For documents, Google docs. For discussion, Slack.
Quote11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...
The above was probably too much dictated by my professional experience, where I have a good idea of what can and can't be done and of how much effort it'll take. This isn't the case here. New suggested approach:
1. If the Unity 3D solution seems viable, spend time doing the tutorials, reading a few docs and playing around. [Edit: That what I'm doing for the net month.]
2. Based on the tips of https://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/topics/developer-advice/how-start-your-game-development we should probably do some throwaway game first to get it out of the system.
3. Define the basic concept of the minimal viable product. This could be thought as modular: For example, the first module could be a character viewer/editor, the second the tactical view, the third the strategic/base view, the fourth multiplayer, the fifth solving cancer, etc.
4. Deliver the minimum viable product.
5. Congrat ourselves!
6. Turn that minimum viable product into a minimum lovable product.
7. Sleep.
8. Start a new project/module.
My experience with unity 3d was rewarding, it was just too hard to go alone. The things I learned; you can use the nif files, animations and all, but they take some converting, it's not an automatic fit. With unity's updates, they would still work, but would fall under the legacy format. And it takes 3ds max to convert properly.
I managed to eek out a playable demo with beast and marvel girl, using ff style pause tactics. I did have some paid for tools helping me, and I still have them. I'd have to check the licensing, but I'm sure I could share what I have. I still have all the tools, but I don't think I can find that exact demo I made. I will look this week.
I feel I got the gameplay about right, does anyone remember it? the big bad was a large sentinel. Where I got really bogged down, working alone, was in character creation. I was trying to fit open creation in from the start. FF didn't even do that!
If you get to the point you want to hand out tasks, I can convert nif files, be happy to do it.
I agree it will be but have faith in the people here to learn and rapidly. Take Nifskope and editing keyframe animations on a coding/string scale. A few of us had no knowledge of the subject not too long ago, now it's vast. Same with weighting and rigging meshes which at a time was thought would always be impossible outside of two versions of 3ds max. The capacity for this community to adapt is outstanding imo.
Else already looking into convertion. Fortunately switching mesh formats is a big thing now anyways (Xentax, Zenhax, Facepunch, Noesis, Quickbms and so forth) so the ball is already rolling well. Just a matter of time and breaking down the formula. Again flipping the so called impossible here. Last month I reported I thought the model format for Spider-man Unlimited was impossible. Two days ago I cracked it and last night I looked at the entire volume of characters converted to a usable format. Consider me on the task already.
Quote from: bearded on May 15, 2017, 04:58:08 AM
My experience with unity 3d was rewarding, it was just too hard to go alone. The things I learned; you can use the nif files, animations and all, but they take some converting, it's not an automatic fit. With unity's updates, they would still work, but would fall under the legacy format. And it takes 3ds max to convert properly.
I managed to eek out a playable demo with beast and marvel girl, using ff style pause tactics. I did have some paid for tools helping me, and I still have them. I'd have to check the licensing, but I'm sure I could share what I have. I still have all the tools, but I don't think I can find that exact demo I made. I will look this week.
That's very nice of you, Bearded. It certainly would help!
[/quote]I feel I got the gameplay about right, does anyone remember it? the big bad was a large sentinel. Where I got really bogged down, working alone, was in character creation. I was trying to fit open creation in from the start. FF didn't even do that![/quote]I remember trying an earlier build with Minute Man, but not that one. Either because it was Windows-only or due to RL overload, I can't remember. Is the demo still available? And while I'm at it, because I'm a greedy <insert term of your choice here>: would you perchance be interested in making your work the basis of our hypothetical effort?
QuoteIf you get to the point you want to hand out tasks, I can convert nif files, be happy to do it.
Any contribution would be much appreciated. Your experience working with Unity would be precious.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 15, 2017, 01:59:05 PM
I agree it will be but have faith in the people here to learn and rapidly. Take Nifskope and editing keyframe animations on a coding/string scale. A few of us had no knowledge of the subject not too long ago, now it's vast. Same with weighting and rigging meshes which at a time was thought would always be impossible outside of two versions of 3ds max. The capacity for this community to adapt is outstanding imo.
Else already looking into convertion. Fortunately switching mesh formats is a big thing now anyways (Xentax, Zenhax, Facepunch, Noesis, Quickbms and so forth) so the ball is already rolling well. Just a matter of time and breaking down the formula. Again flipping the so called impossible here. Last month I reported I thought the model format for Spider-man Unlimited was impossible. Two days ago I cracked it and last night I looked at the entire volume of characters converted to a usable format. Consider me on the task already.
:thumbup:
...why do I get the feeling that aside from being roped into skinning, I'm going to end up creating villians...vuja de..
Quote from: bearded on May 15, 2017, 04:58:08 AM
My experience with unity 3d was rewarding, it was just too hard to go alone. The things I learned; you can use the nif files, animations and all, but they take some converting, it's not an automatic fit. With unity's updates, they would still work, but would fall under the legacy format. And it takes 3ds max to convert properly.
I managed to eek out a playable demo with beast and marvel girl, using ff style pause tactics. I did have some paid for tools helping me, and I still have them. I'd have to check the licensing, but I'm sure I could share what I have. I still have all the tools, but I don't think I can find that exact demo I made. I will look this week.
I feel I got the gameplay about right, does anyone remember it? the big bad was a large sentinel. Where I got really bogged down, working alone, was in character creation. I was trying to fit open creation in from the start. FF didn't even do that!
If you get to the point you want to hand out tasks, I can convert nif files, be happy to do it.
We must have been typing at about the same time, I missed this. Legacy format. Good to know. I have the Unity engine as well a bunch of other tools and Max. Mind linking some stuff so I can accelerate my process? Also I'll double back and see about getting a script that we can use later to make either an ingame converter or an extra convertion program. I'm sure most users in the long run won't want to use 3ds max. Seems to be another hang-up in the community, I only lucked out and got my school to get me a recent one myself. Ty.
Jam a bit more about your experiences with Unity if you can please as well, especially the technical ends of it. I have a bit of know how these days as well again friends with multiple communities that are now really good with it and can give us pointers. I think as your the one who had the most experience trying to build this from the ground up it would be important to start working from where you left off then and getting us all on the same page. Ty again and of course when you have the time.
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3000
I paid for this asset. As best I can read the licensing, it is good for one seat at a time. So, if someone wanted to use it, they would be the only one. More seats would have to be paid for. Anything made with it could be shared by the team. Also, the framework has been abandoned by the author, which makes it most likely, the author doesn't care what we might do with it.
It is a good base to work from. I got it to working with a dynamic nav gen. It is for an older version of unity, I might have to do some tweaking to get it working, but I have no doubt. I have learned a lot of c# since then.
Quote from: Epimethee on May 16, 2017, 02:48:04 AM
Is the demo still available? And while I'm at it, because I'm a greedy <insert term of your choice here>: would you perchance be interested in making your work the basis of our hypothetical effort?
Certainly. I'll find what resources I can. The controls were exact matches for ff, with a little ai. With no real limit on team numbers, but I only used 2. Who made the Sentinel mesh? One of the greats, he gave his permission to use his resources.
Backing up a little as far as rights are concerned :ff: itself is open-source as far as distribution is concerned anyways, I mean what we've been doing all these years anyways. Just up and sharing either entire game of course not, but we're allotted modding and creating full :ff: based works as it is. Else if it comes to namesake we've been doing just that as well for years, but a little gratitude goes a long way. I recently sent Ken Levine an anniversary thanks and invited him to come see the forum sometime. Really just getting in touch with the creator and asking for advocacy isn't a bad move (I found him on FB).
Quote from: bearded on May 19, 2017, 11:13:59 PM
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3000
I paid for this asset. As best I can read the licensing, it is good for one seat at a time. So, if someone wanted to use it, they would be the only one. More seats would have to be paid for. Anything made with it could be shared by the team. Also, the framework has been abandoned by the author, which makes it most likely, the author doesn't care what we might do with it.
It is a good base to work from. I got it to working with a dynamic nav gen. It is for an older version of unity, I might have to do some tweaking to get it working, but I have no doubt. I have learned a lot of c# since then.
Nice, thanks!
Quote from: bearded on May 20, 2017, 01:06:13 AM
Quote from: Epimethee on May 16, 2017, 02:48:04 AM
Is the demo still available? And while I'm at it, because I'm a greedy <insert term of your choice here>: would you perchance be interested in making your work the basis of our hypothetical effort?
Certainly. I'll find what resources I can. The controls were exact matches for ff, with a little ai. With no real limit on team numbers, but I only used 2. Who made the Sentinel mesh? One of the greats, he gave his permission to use his resources.
A HUGE THANK YOU!
The
Sentinel Classic mesh was by Grenadier. Definitively one of the greats!
Quote from: SickAlice on May 20, 2017, 01:49:49 PM
Backing up a little as far as rights are concerned :ff: itself is open-source as far as distribution is concerned anyways, I mean what we've been doing all these years anyways. Just up and sharing either entire game of course not, but we're allotted modding and creating full :ff: based works as it is.
If I'm interpreting correctly what you wrote, your interpretation of "open source" doesn't follow the legal definition. FF has never been licensed under open source terms. My understanding is that as far as IG was concerned, we could reuse their assets for creating content
for their game. They seem to have unofficially tolerated a bit more than that, probably as a gesture of good will toward the community, but I don't remember any official statement giving away rights. Anyway, IG doesn't exist anymore and AFAIK, the intellectual property now belongs to 2K.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd avoid releasing anything publicly which reuse their intellectual property, unless as a mod working only with FF or FvsTTR. It might be conceivable though, to allow importing assets into our hypothetical new game using asset a player has on disk in their FF directory.
QuoteElse if it comes to namesake we've been doing just that as well for years, but a little gratitude goes a long way. I recently sent Ken Levine an anniversary thanks and invited him to come see the forum sometime. Really just getting in touch with the creator and asking for advocacy isn't a bad move (I found him on FB).
That would be nice! There are a few former IG contributors which used to visit this forum way back when. George Ledoux, for one, was there quite a bit, even contributing his voice talents to the Great Hunt mod. :)
I also had permission from C6 to use his skins for a new game. If the only resources we take from :ff: are those 2 creator's creations, we're good, I'm sure. As for the Fury Framework, one seat per license works anyway, because you would really only want one person driving that car. I'll get started tonight importing Fury into the newest Unity update.
Not legal standard no. I hesitated on the term usage but "open source" was the best I could come up with, hence the explaining after. "Fit's GNU" would maybe be more proper but more still whatever term applies to "the game developers encouraged the clients to use the engine and entities found within to create their own works based on, literally in writ as it were". If that clears it a little better. In short Irrational straight up gave us the go ahead on the boxes of the product and their own website where they included the tools for it. I could dig out the legal stuff but we all have a copy, note to self I'll grab that for the copyright thread I made here though.
Otherwise I'm making faster strides than anticipated in format conversion. I'll lay that out in detail when it's concrete. Making an effort to educate myself in Unity for at least two hours every night as well now (I was already dabbling anyways and have the tools, interesting stuff really).
Also talked briefly about how we have a rough draft here for this and my high opinions of everyone's skills here. Other people including industry professionals took interest and said they would love to be involved in any capacity for free and just because it sounds like fun, one in particular an LA musician who would love to do music if not even just grunt texturing stuff. Told them it would be awhile of course but let me know what you peeps think.
I've kept my mouth quiet on the idea of using FFs characters/story and how fast some people are moving on this for a bit now. I got to say, though, that some here are moving too fast and forging ahead with the idea that creating a game using the FF story/charactes is the best - no matter the potential legal issues. Legally, if we stick with making a mod for FF using the FF characters we'd be okay because it requires people to own FF to play thus allowing 2K to make a profit, ect. The idea of a new engine/game using FF's characters/ect runs us into a grey area because we would end up using a companies characters without their okay which could easily run us into the whole "cease and desist" orders that skinners/meshers ran into early on (Marvel came after us back then and while they did relent in the end, it put us on edge back then).
While it might take longer and not be as glamourous/accepted, I think it's better to take gameplay ideas and some mechanics from FF - as well as other games - and create a new game with it's own new story and characters with no connection to FF/Marvel/DC/ect.
Personally, I think we are moving a bit fast on this with no clear plan or idea other than wanting to make an FF game and nothing else. We need to sit down and truly think what we want to do, what type of story we want to tell, and everything else that Irrational and other game creators go thru when they start a new game idea.
Of course, that's just me and we all know I'm one of the smallest/least useful cog in this and the forum.
Quote from: bearded on May 21, 2017, 04:26:28 AM
I also had permission from C6 to use his skins for a new game. If the only resources we take from :ff: are those 2 creator's creations, we're good, I'm sure. As for the Fury Framework, one seat per license works anyway, because you would really only want one person driving that car. I'll get started tonight importing Fury into the newest Unity update.
Having access to C6 work is certainly nice! :)
Let us know how the Fury upgrade goes. It's really too bad it was abandoned.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 21, 2017, 02:41:34 PM
Otherwise I'm making faster strides than anticipated in format conversion. I'll lay that out in detail when it's concrete. Making an effort to educate myself in Unity for at least two hours every night as well now (I was already dabbling anyways and have the tools, interesting stuff really).
Excellent! I'm also, if very slowly, going through the Unity tutorials, documentation and ecosystem. I was planning to do this for the next month, so I'd get at least a basic grip of things before going too deeply into stuff I know nothing about and making structural errors.
QuoteAlso talked briefly about how we have a rough draft here for this and my high opinions of everyone's skills here. Other people including industry professionals took interest and said they would love to be involved in any capacity for free and just because it sounds like fun, one in particular an LA musician who would love to do music if not even just grunt texturing stuff. Told them it would be awhile of course but let me know what you peeps think.
Great news! It sounds like we might need to organize a bit more quickly than I expected, then.
When it comes to story and character, I think we can easily come up with our own original stuff pretty well if need be. The Liberty Bay stuff was made by the community working together and we could easily come up with original characters if it comes to that.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 21, 2017, 02:41:34 PM
In short Irrational straight up gave us the go ahead on the boxes of the product and their own website where they included the tools for it. I could dig out the legal stuff but we all have a copy, note to self I'll grab that for the copyright thread I made here though.
I totally appreciate the enthusiasm and love of FF fuelling this. However, I really, really feel that's not what was intended by IG (and definitively not was would be perceived as "fair use" by a judge, I'm sure): AFAIK, they gave us tools to mod the game, not to reuse freely its content elsewhere.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 21, 2017, 11:20:25 PMThe idea of a new engine/game using FF's characters/ect runs us into a grey area because we would end up using a companies characters without their okay which could easily run us into the whole "cease and desist" orders that skinners/meshers ran into early on (Marvel came after us back then and while they did relent in the end, it put us on edge back then).
I doubt we'd get the same leniency we got then, as this would be considered a direct competitor. While our intent is to recreate a game and its characters we love, so it can benefit from current advances, and continue to be played on modern hardware and OSes, once we're public, it would, I'm afraid, only be construed as a rip-off, morally and legally.
QuoteWhile it might take longer and not be as glamourous/accepted, I think it's better to take gameplay ideas and some mechanics from FF - as well as other games - and create a new game with it's own new story and characters with no connection to FF/Marvel/DC/ect.
I fully agree! We might even grow to love them as much. More to the point, I'm under the impression that the core need we want to address is not the recreation of FF's story and characters, but of FF's sandbox: to allow gamers to create stuff. Whether their creations are based on the universe of FF, Marvel, DC, or their own (e.g. Liberty Bay or Strangers) would be their choice. Basically, the default game could have Generic Woman and Generic Man vs. Generic Mastermind and still be exactly what the modding community wants.
BTW, I'm not saying that a quick proof of concept prototype couldn't reuse existing assets, just that it should be kept from the public until it's kosher.
The other aspect, when we're talking of FF, is the implicit thought that reusing existing meshes and skins would be easier and, because it'd give us an instant library of thousand of assets, better. However, as SickAlice mentioned, Unity and modern 3-D meshing offers much more. I'd rather leave behind tech which would be 20-year old when we ship and have a more dynamic game (on-the-fly mesh warping?) , easier modding (shared individual keyframe files?) , better in-game content edition and access to a lot more external resources. Obviously I know almost nothing of Unity yet and even less of meshing, so I'd love to get Bearded and SA's (or other people's) take on this.
QuotePersonally, I think we are moving a bit fast on this with no clear plan or idea other than wanting to make an FF game and nothing else. We need to sit down and truly think what we want to do, what type of story we want to tell, and everything else that Irrational and other game creators go thru when they start a new game idea.
We certainly need to do that, indeed! However, I don't think we should yet. In fact, we should avoid thinking too much right now about the type of game we want to do, because don't have the skills yet to evaluate what's possible and the effort required. We should start small before trying to outdo a masterpiece from one of the greatest professional game studios ever. ;)
QuoteOf course, that's just me and we all know I'm one of the smallest/least useful cog in this and the forum.
I certainly appreciate your participation.* But you are belittling your capacities and contributions. :) (And personally, I can't pretend I'm going to be very useful in the end, as I have limited technical expertise and time.)
*the stench of your rotting undead carcass, a bit less, though. The worms falling out of your eyeballs are also rather distracting when trying to have a proper conversation.
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 22, 2017, 12:50:22 AM
When it comes to story and character, I think we can easily come up with our own original stuff pretty well if need be. The Liberty Bay stuff was made by the community working together and we could easily come up with original characters if it comes to that.
I agree with this. If we are making our own game, original characters should 100% be the way to go. I do not want to even try and attempt to use characters branded by Irrational Games, even if that company is now defunct. It's not like this community lacks any creativity.
If we're going to get caught up in all the IP stuff about reusing IG's resources then we'll somehow need to obtain or create tons of stuff - from buildings and trees to ambient sounds to footsteps noises to innumerable textures. :banghead:
Quote from: yell0w_lantern on May 22, 2017, 04:52:20 AM
If we're going to get caught up in all the IP stuff about reusing IG's resources then we'll somehow need to obtain or create tons of stuff - from buildings and trees to ambient sounds to footsteps noises to innumerable textures. :banghead:
There is a lot of free stuff on Unity, all need be done is pick a style.
Fury has 66 errors. I'm going to work on them tonight. Trust me, worth it.
Getting off track and agreed wholeheartedly that original content would be the way to go anyways if everyone else is voting for that. We certainly have the talent on this site for that as well. Still do think at least some sort of props should be there for FF, like in the tradition of or somesuch just to head-nod the inspiration and education the games gave all of us.
^_^ Indeed. In addition to Easter eggs etc., if a player has FFvsTTR installed, we could have a script which fetches things like voice packs and music and adds them to our game.
Quote from: Epimethee on May 23, 2017, 01:46:24 AM
^_^ Indeed. In addition to Easter eggs etc., if a player has FFvsTTR installed, we could have a script which fetches things like voice packs and music and adds them to our game.
If you want to get tricky, you could require FFvsTTR to be installed, and call the whole thing a mod.
I have success with Fury! I got it to run, but still some errors. 2 characters, you can click and give orders on 1 or both, same as ff. But movement is broken. I'll tweak it some more before I send it to you.
👍 Good work, Bearded!
Awesome bearded and that's brilliant. Irrational would love that for sure. Speaking of Easter Eggs we should totally stick the Minute Man statue somewhere in the game as a shout-out.
Firstly, welcome back, Bearded! :thumbup:
Can't believe I didn't say that last time :doh:
Secondly, how does everybody feel about squad size? I was thinking that perhaps five should be the squad limit rather than four. There have been many more times where I felt five people on a team would be more fun than just four. Namely trying to use teams like the New Teen Titans (Robin, Beast Boy, Starfire, Raven, and Cyborg), the Guardians (both the team in the movies and the originals), the original X-Men, and a few others here and there.
Perhaps a mode where there's no limit? That could get messy, though. Perhaps something like the Team Battle mode in FFX3 that lets you swap AI controlled teammates for player-controlled members would be a good option.
Quote from: spydermann93 on May 25, 2017, 06:22:15 PM
Firstly, welcome back, Bearded! :thumbup:
Can't believe I didn't say that last time :doh:
Secondly, how does everybody feel about squad size? I was thinking that perhaps five should be the squad limit rather than four. There have been many more times where I felt five people on a team would be more fun than just four. Namely trying to use teams like the New Teen Titans (Robin, Beast Boy, Starfire, Raven, and Cyborg), the Guardians (both the team in the movies and the originals), the original X-Men, and a few others here and there.
Perhaps a mode where there's no limit? That could get messy, though. Perhaps something like the Team Battle mode in FFX3 that lets you swap AI controlled teammates for player-controlled members would be a good option.
Maybe four or five, anything more and you're constantly swapping between characters. That's part of the reason Irrational stayed with four - it was easier to keep track of them for a person playing the game.
Yeah, I agree that's why they limited it, but I don't think five will be too much of a stretch.
At leat I believe that there should be an option that a user can enable that allows for more characters in a group. Total War has something similar where in Multiplayer or Custom Battles, you can double the size of unit slots in your army. While it may be clunky compared to the standard army size of 20, it's a fun option to have.
Perhaps for story purposes, though, we should stick with four.
A larger squad size would work best if every character is always on-screen or if it's not real-time or if the AI is top notch (good luck with that one).
Quote from: Epimethee on May 25, 2017, 10:02:01 PM
A larger squad size would work best if every character is always on-screen or if it's not real-time or if the AI is top notch (good luck with that one).
True that
If we go the "Sandbox " route, and allow for the type of customization that would let us use teams like The New Titans, or the original X-Men, then yeah, 5 is a good number. But honestly, I'd like to see where our story takes us before deciding between 4 or more Members.
Quote from: Cyber Burn on May 26, 2017, 12:41:18 AM
If we go the "Sandbox " route, and allow for the type of customization that would let us use teams like The New Titans, or the original X-Men, then yeah, 5 is a good number. But honestly, I'd like to see where our story takes us before deciding between 4 or more Members.
I'm with you on this one. I think if we work on the first few parts of the story, we'll start getting a good idea of what we want to do in regards to team control. Personally, I'm fine with keeping it just like in FF, but I am also open to other ideas.
One thing that I wish FF had was more modes in the Rumble Room. FFX3 did a great job adding more, but I'm greedy and I want more :P Things like adjusting team size, selecting starting positions, and other fun modes to play is something that I would really like.
A couple of quick questions (Kind of Noobish, I'm sorry):
1) Detourne_Me: You mentioned -
QuoteMetadata for hero files?
- can you elaborate on that? I don't think I've heard the term before.
2) SickAlice: You had mentioned -
Quoteextended genre options, like racing, fighting
- in regards to Racing, are you thinking something like Mario Kart? And for Fighting, are you thinking along the lines of Street Fighter?
Squad has to have a limit yeah, else too much hocus occurs. Four or six though...really don't see a large difference? I'd say relative option and maybe a call in character or something.
@Cyber_Burn: Pretty much that exactly. Or make a chess like game, whatever. I always thought it would be neat to be able to have the main as is but be able to stretch out to whatever. I know I've seen convert to fighting engine come up on and off over the years for that matter. So basically I guess thinking like Mortal Kombat Armageddon where there was this unlockable Kart mode or Shaolin Monks where the main game was an adventure but there was an unlockable Arena mode.
Mostly in our case though since I think anyone would want the focus to be the primary engine and game these wouldn't be as pronounced as all that, rather the capacity to do such a thing just available in the engine itself, or to make faux versions of a like kind. Like the way FF is already set-up it actually lends itself to an old school GTA style racing game or Micro Machines type when you think about it. Then just take two characters fighting as they already do, moves are there, FX are already in place but add a little more control and camera angles (thinking like Superhero TV here).
At any rate though not that extensive, just something to look into or more maybe leave the door open to be able to add-on such a thing after the first primary engine and game are all said and done.
I gotta agree with we need to hammer out a story before we splay out all the potential thingies we can do and want.....but I'm weird that way...
From a design point of view I'd make the game capable of handling a much larger squad number. What that number is should depend on UI and performance constraints. Doing so just gives you more options long term. The actual finished product could lock it to 4 or 5 or whatever.
If I were designing it, I'd go more for a setting without pre-set heroes. That is, have it designed around custom heroes, with a few pre-designed ones for those who want them.
For the story--how about a setting where the city's main superhero group has been killed off or captures, or scattered in some way. Your character is the grandson of an old retired hero groups who with the help and device of your mentor grandfather, reactivates an old team base and tried to put together a new team to save the city. I've been playing Invisible Inc some recently, and I'd love a semi-randomized campaign like that, with some preset villains and groups and a few prescripted missions allong the way.
I like the idea of leaving peeps like you in charge of plot. That to date has never been my strong suit. In RPG even I usually have other people write my characters backstories and I work out character designs. AA is levels above me in this though, hell if he'd be up to it I'd say let him be Art Manager and establish the look of everything.
Else reporting back I'm making fast strides in conversion knowledge. Going to need time out there though, like a week or two, just to study and experiment with various game engines and such. Luckily Netimmerse itself is pretty cumbersome despite dissenting points of view about that and follows a general tree structure as opposed to scrambled types that are broken up like a sprite sheet. I'll post again when I get some concrete stuff down.
* Also and this popped in my head just now but the need for base models is going to come up. Clearly we don't want to recycle Irrationals work. However luckily our community has already put years to making it's own models in. I'm thinking ask Gren and JP and use their basic models? Also though given trying to upgrade graphics perhaps go 4x and the face count to make it easier for people wanting to sculpt the base as well to cut down on jaggles.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 27, 2017, 06:01:11 PM
* Also and this popped in my head just now but the need for base models is going to come up. Clearly we don't want to recycle Irrationals work. However luckily our community has already put years to making it's own models in. I'm thinking ask Gren and JP and use their basic models? Also though given trying to upgrade graphics perhaps go 4x and the face count to make it easier for people wanting to sculpt the base as well to cut down on jaggles.
What about the work that Alex and Tommy were doing? Did they pull away from the Nif Format? Could we contact them about this?
Love toms work thing is he made a pretty complex and unique type of nif. Mostly and most hexers discovered this it doesn't play well and can be tricky a bit. Gren's on the other hand stayed pretty close to the original structure. I say it too as a matter of looking into conversion to Unity. I can see Gren's involving a lot less scripting and to align to the new engine.
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 27, 2017, 01:34:19 AM
If I were designing it, I'd go more for a setting without pre-set heroes. That is, have it designed around custom heroes, with a few pre-designed ones for those who want them.
For the story--how about a setting where the city's main superhero group has been killed off or captures, or scattered in some way. Your character is the grandson of an old retired hero groups who with the help and device of your mentor grandfather, reactivates an old team base and tried to put together a new team to save the city. I've been playing Invisible Inc some recently, and I'd love a semi-randomized campaign like that, with some preset villains and groups and a few prescripted missions allong the way.
Agreed on the emplhasis on customs, even if this is certainly harder to pull off. Your story setting seems an excellent approach for how we'd need the game to start.
Quick status: FWIW, Still going through the docs and tutorials, and planning to continue doing so for the next few weeks. Some stuff is definitively hard (lots and lots of things to learn... some of which is definitively not intuitive), but there appears to be fascinating possibilities.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 27, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
Aren't we a bit self-deprecating?
Beside, even if AA (which hasn't participated in this thread so far) or anyone else is part of the team, we're going to need many talented artists!
Not being self-depricating but trying to emphasis how "off putting" that comment about making AA the art director and designing everything sounded to me and possibly other skinners. Why can't all the skinners be part of designing it and all be the "art director"? Just saying...
To be honest to everyone, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about doing this....no definite reason per say just a combo of stuff.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 27, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
C'mon; we'll always need you... as a bad example at the very least.
Quote from: Deaths Jester on May 27, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
Oh, AA is involved? Well, guess that means I'm not needed after all. Good to know...
Stop bashing yourself. First off your more talented then your giving yourself credit for and your just as knowledgeable as any other person here. You also have more to contribute then just texturing, you already have just in the way of opinion and know-how in this very thread.
Else we're talking about a game and engine from the ground up here. To pull that off takes an entire team with many people working together on every facet of it, a list of credits if you will. In other words we will definitely need a whole team of people doing the texturing. Likewise modelling, scripting, animation and everything else.
And not sure if he is anyways, I was saying we should ask and more not to texture everything rather to come up with designs. You know like how the costumes should look and everything. He just has this skill for making a streamlined look to things where the visuals are immediately recognizable and memorable and also jump off the screen is all I'm saying. We'd still need people to actually make the skins based on his ideas however, as well all the glow, refl and bump maps for that matter.
We need you DJ and your valuable to us, always have been and always will. Hell truth is when learning to make better textures I actually studied you stuff because you knew how to make things elegant. Also I learned how to do Spider-man's costume webbing from your skins. No one person here has every been more important then the other, we all contribute as a team and you do too, always have. Give yourself more credit.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 30, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
Also I learned how to do Spider-man's costume webbing from your skins.
Not sure how you learned that from anything I did, seeing as I've never skinned Spidey....or much of any costume's with webbing....oh well, not important...
Forgive my brain or lack thereof. Point is you were someone I looked up to and that inspired me to learn more about all this, credit were it's deserved. Sorry for my demeanor too, but if someone else talked smack about you I would tear them apart. Your part of the family here mate and your worth your skills just as the rest of you are. Should congratulate yourself. Also I honestly believe your smart enough that you could teach yourself a new skill. There was a time when I felt like you did. I didn't do squat for models, animations, levels, FX or much else than skinning and at that point all I was really doing was coloring provided base textures. The resolve was to learn some new things and luckily I had a forum of great teachers. Doing that cured of me of feeling the way I did. Just a suggestion anyways but really why not? If you have the urge to be able to do more develop another skill. It turns it to be easier than it looks imo, especially when others have already paved the path and made nice programs to do such things with. Anyways I value you and so does everyone here.
Quote from: SickAlice on May 31, 2017, 05:35:10 PM
Forgive my brain or lack thereof. Point is you were someone I looked up to and that inspired me to learn more about all this, credit were it's deserved. Sorry for my demeanor too, but if someone else talked smack about you I would tear them apart. Your part of the family here mate and your worth your skills just as the rest of you are. Should congratulate yourself. Also I honestly believe your smart enough that you could teach yourself a new skill. There was a time when I felt like you did. I didn't do squat for models, animations, levels, FX or much else than skinning and at that point all I was really doing was coloring provided base textures. The resolve was to learn some new things and luckily I had a forum of great teachers. Doing that cured of me of feeling the way I did. Just a suggestion anyways but really why not? If you have the urge to be able to do more develop another skill. It turns it to be easier than it looks imo, especially when others have already paved the path and made nice programs to do such things with. Anyways I value you and so does everyone here.
FWIW, still digging into Unity tutorials. This is going to take a while... or three.
Nice thread here guys, i guess every member of this community dreamed about an ff3, and of course to use a free engine like unity looks like the better way to do it with the community resources...or maybe not?
reflecting on this argument i've thought that basically there is nothing wrong with the :ff: games, they are really far better then most of the games that exit now in the 2017! (in most of them you just need a "quick click skill" to play, really no creativity is needed) so i think most of us just want to implement things into ff (the list of things is obviously very long :rolleyes:) and maybe import more detailed meshs for maps and characters, but certainly we don't want to lost the compatibility with all the works we have already done.
The easy way to do it is to have the permission to use ff code or whatever a programmer call it, to use all the the ff software and teach him new things, now i think that maybe a letter from all the members of this community to whoever hold this licence could be a nice start, after all if i was this person and i could have a game to sell for free i was happy, and probably i would give an hand to such project .
Also have the licence to build a real ff3 sequel could gave the opportunity of work on a story that involve the characters of the other 2 games.