Angst of the Red Robin

[Blkcasanova247]

Continuing the conversation in Tommys "MASSIVELY" cool mesh thread....Red Robin aka Tim Wayne. Like him or more schlock on the nonsense fire? I hope he never goes back to being Robin and truth be told I hope that is murderous forebearer Jason Todd becomes his archnemisis. I think that'd be a nice ironic twist...especially since Todd almost killed Tim. I just hope that this "breaking down" of Tim doesn't go overboard.

[tommyboy]

I don't mind him being Red Robin, (or any other identity for that matter), as Robin is sort of established as a transitional role for a younger hero (like Kid Flash, I guess). Of course I'd be really pleased to see any ex-Robin don the Earth-2 "grown up Robin" costume that's an amalgam of Batman and Robin.That would be megahellakewl, in my not so humble opinion.
I'm more concerned that Tim has gone from an effective, capable leader to a slightly oddball conspiracy theorist who shuns all human company. I'm hopeful that this is just a journey, not a destination, and that the journey is not to the grave, or worse, to the Jason-grave-bad-bottom-route (if that makes any sense at all).
Damien is sort of intriguing as Robin, I don't dislike him as Robin per se, but you have to admit it's a bit hard on Tim, who handled the role well, to get the boot in favour of what is essentially nepotism (ie Damien, Bruce's son gets the job, and Tim gets...err...nothing).

[Blkcasanova247]

Yeah I thought that that was a bit uncool the way that they handled that with Dick giving him the boot as Robin...massaging him all the way mind you with the whole "you're not my subordinate...you're my equal but I still don't have a role for you" bit. But the way I figure it all plays into Tim's spiral downwards. In a lot of ways he's had it a little worse than Bruce and Dick in terms of loss in brutal fashion. Smart, level headed Tim can is I think is showing his first real signs of how much of all that trauma starting from an early age has really broken him. I think they'll go a little deeper and darker before you see him rise again. I've faith and patience enough to see this story through...I liked the first two issues...they grabbed my attention. I don't dig the art so much...but I'm more interested in the story for this one...especially the Ra's angle.

[Jakew]

I like the concept of Tim Wayne ... he's a new twist on Batman, and is actually part of a previously existing story.

It must be pretty hard to keep doing fresh stories with Batman, considering the age of the character.

[Mystik]

Ok its pretty obvious that in 12-18 mths bruce will be back and the batbooks will probably relaunch again (which in my mind makes all the current stuff in the batbooks just filler) this will probably leave us with three guys who used to be robin. and that to me screams cannon fodder. so I just hope that when nightwing gives up the cowl that damian will also give up being robin.  dick will either die or become nightwing again, so where will damain be? hopefully dead, a villain or nightwings new partner but not robin.

tim is the only one looking for bruce- it shows that only he is worthy 2 be bruces partner

[BentonGrey]

I like the concept of Tim Wayne ... he's a new twist on Batman, and is actually part of a previously existing story.

It must be pretty hard to keep doing fresh stories with Batman, considering the age of the character.

A concern that I am infinitely sympathetic to, but since DC won't allow their characters to grow in any meaningful way, preferring to torture them and call it character development, they never get the endings that they deserve.  I'd love to see a story free of bad continuity, started over from early on, where Dick ends up as a grown up Robin in the Red Robin costume.  I really like that look.

[Courtnall6]

I'd love to see a story free of bad continuity, started over from early on, where Dick ends up as a grown up Robin in the Red Robin costume.  I really like that look.

Me too...way cooler than Nightwing. After Dick becomes Red Robin I would then abolish the Robin character. No Jason Todd, no Tim Drake, no whomever else...just no more Robin.

[BentonGrey]

Or rather, just the grown up Robin...I'd still have him be Batman's partner, but just change the dynamic.  Eventually Dick would take over for Bruce, either under the cowl, or maintaining his own identity, as Bruce retired with Selena Kyle.....ahh.....if only I ran DC.

[Courtnall6]

I would rather Dick maintain as Red Robin when Bruce retires. Bruce Wayne is Batman. No one else should wear that cowl.

Red Robin would do just fine protecting Gotham me thinks!

[BentonGrey]

I would rather Dick maintain as Red Robin when Bruce retires. Bruce Wayne is Batman. No one else should wear that cowl.

Red Robin would do just fine protecting Gotham me thinks!

I agree, but part of me likes the idea of the cowl being a symbol.  My plan for the DCUG, if I live to be 140 and thereby have time, is to have Robin end up as a grown-up Robin, with Bruce retiring, but I have to admit that the idea of him becoming Bruce appeals to me slightly.  What is really important to me, though, is that the angst is mostly excised from their relationship. 

[Courtnall6]

If Dick takes over as the Batman...I think it would be too much for him (or anyone for that matter) to live up to. He would be constantly mentioning that fact ad nauseum. It would seem to me that Dick is trying to get out from under Batman's shadow and become his own man...his own legend...and not by becoming that shadow.

[murs47]

I'd like to see Jason return to being the Red Hood and serving what he thinks is justice. I like Tim as Red Robin from what I've read so far. A bit of a detour from his "regular" personality but age and numerous traumatic events can change anyone. I really like Damian as Robin. He's so much of a brat it's entertaining. Dick as Batman is something new. Is it better? IDK yet. I do enjoy the dynamic between he and Damian though. So far it looks like the Bat books are heading in a good direction. Time will tell though.

[Blkcasanova247]

It would seem to me that Dick is trying to get out from under Batman's shadow and become his own man...his own legend...and not by becoming that shadow.

But at the same time as exampled "Knightfall" and lots of other Batman stories he resents others taking on the mantle not just because they're not Bruce but that "he" should be one to pick it up...that somewhere in the back of his mind it's what he's always been meant to do. I've always felt that he was always being groomed by Bruce to replace him...from father to son...until recently DC passed the torch/mantle to they're junior characters or a decent replacement (Wally and Kyle for example...now everyones back and want their costumes back ). Forget all the "well they'll bring Bruce back in 18mths-2yrs so what's the point" stuff...to the majority (i'll generalize a bit) of people that thought about who'd replace Bruce as Batman...the choice would "ALWAYS" be Dick Grayson. Now Tim is different matter...he never wanted to be Batman...if there was somebody forging..not trying too...but actually forging there own path it was him.

[GhostMachine]

The one thing I'm not too thrilled about is Damien - who isn't really Bruce's son; he's a half-clone or test-tube baby, depending on how you view things, if you read Batman #666 - now being Robin. However, I'm glad there was a costume change, as I hated Tim's last Robin costume's design.

murs, I completely agree with you about Jason going back to being the Red Hood. He's a villain, not an anti-hero. And considering fans hated him and voted for him to be killed off, I can't see any way they could ever redeem him and make him a hero again.

The big problem I have with Damien is he's more than willing to kill; he not only killed the villain known as the Spook, but even brought his severed head back to the Batcave and tried to take the Robin identity by force by beating up and trying to kill Tim. He's just too unstable to be Robin, and considering his origin, I really hope he eventually gets killed off if they don't decide to eventually straighten him out.

I'm glad it looks like Damien will only be used in Batman and Robin and not in Batman for the forseeable future, so I won't have to put up with him. (I'm not reading Batman and Robin due to Frank Quitely being the artist (bleech) and Grant Morrison being more miss than hit when he was writing Batman)

The problem I have with how Dick was handled in Battle For The Cowl and is being handled in Batman is that he was TOO reluctant to take on the mantle; heck in his first issue as Batman, he's actually still Nightwing except on the cover and last page!

[Tomato]

The problem I have with how Dick was handled in Battle For The Cowl and is being handled in Batman is that he was TOO reluctant to take on the mantle; heck in his first issue as Batman, he's actually still Nightwing except on the cover and last page!

See, that wouldn't have necessarily bothered me, in that he was troubled by Bruce's death and didn't want to take that role... He felt, like C6 and Benton seem to, that the role is Bruce's and only can be done by Bruce. But in the end Gotham City needed to have Batman as someone beyond death to maintain what little order Bruce had established.

What irritates me, and to be fair this seems to be mostly Morrison's doing (Morrison is not my favorite writer ever, so some disclosure there) is that after having this entire saga where Dick is finally forced to step up and be the Batman we knew he could become, that Bruce knew he could become... he's still whining about it. "Oh, I hate the cape, oh I can't be Bruce, oh Damian won't listen to me, oh my panties won't fit under my costume!" Instead of taking the comic forward and showcasing Dick coming into his own as Batman, showing how he's more this and less that (which seems to be what's been done in "Batman," where they've made Dick more theatrical then Bruce, which I can accept) he's consistently whining in the pages of B&R.

But yeah, I don't necessarily agree Tim should be Robin again (he's moved beyond that, and this is a good moment to start taking him down his own path, which was kinda what I expected from him during the pre-crisis-2.0 Teen Titans run) but yeah... my opinion is Damian can die in a fire.

[Zippo]

Here's my view:

A) Batman is totally replaceable under the right circumstances. Dick was obviously meant for the role eventually, but the circumstances now are not my ideal ones. I'd rather see a more Batman Beyondish situation, where Bruce retires and fulfills a more mentor/Alfred-esque role. That way Dick wouldn't need to wonder whether he's good enough. Bruce could just give some sort of tough-love motivational speech and be done with it.

B) Damien is great as Robin, but only with Dick as Batman. He would not work at all with Bruce, I think. The interplay between them is different than any other B+R pairing before, but I find it quite interesting. So what if he's willing to kill? He's still just a kid. He has uncountable lessons to learn still. If they do this right, it could make for some very satisfying character development, and Dick would be turning someone who would otherwise resurface as an incredibly deadly enemy in the future, into someone who (if batman 666 is any sort of indication) will eventually be a very dedicated Batman.

C) Tim is bugging the heck out of me right now. I like the Red Robin costume, but everything he's doing bugs me to no end.

[deano_ue]

i like the way they are heading in red robin, it's basiclly a young man who has been pushed and pushed, losing all the family he ever had, but still trying to maintain the morals he was taught.

if i had my way when bruce gets back, dick becomes nightwing again, tim stays as red robin and the first story would be built around damiens choice of which family he goes with, the bats or the ghuls. it could develop the little snot into a more likable character

on the idea of jason i loved him as the red hood untill every writer started to mess him up, toddopus??. i would have him be tims main adversary

batman-joker
nightwing-two face
red robin-red hood

[AfghanAnt]

Bruce Wayne is Batman. No one else should wear that cowl.

Red Robin would do just fine protecting Gotham me thinks!

I disagree. Batman is Bruce Wayne and the idea of Batman is what keeps order in Gotham.

Dick doesn't want to be Batman, he needs to be Batman. That is the only reason he is Batman and he realizes that fact.

"Oh, I hate the cape, oh I can't be Bruce, oh Damian won't listen to me, oh my panties won't fit under my costume!" Instead of taking the comic forward and showcasing Dick coming into his own as Batman, showing how he's more this and less that (which seems to be what's been done in "Batman," where they've made Dick more theatrical then Bruce, which I can accept) he's consistently whining in the pages of B&R.

Well Dick (Morrison) has a point. Dick hates the cape and it is why he got rid of it, he will never be the "Batman" Bruce was to Gotham or the reader, and Damien's a brat. As normal as it would seem for Dick to just be Batman. He doing it out of need as much as honor. Imagine if you were told you are the boss at your company because your old boss died. Sure, you know what he did and how he acted but he's not you and I'm sure you would complain about the day to day stuff too.

As for Damien, I like him. He's spunky and really raw. It is something "Robin" needed. I do have a feeling if/when Bruce is revived Damien may be on his way out.

[Blkcasanova247]

Damien is a bratty lil' so-and-so...and you're supposed to hate him...at first. They'll break him down and make a cool Robin out of him...mark my words. 

[Courtnall6]

In the end this discussion about Dick becoming Batman is kind of pointless really. DC will never make Dick a permanent replacement for Bruce. DC will never make anyone permanently replace Bruce. It will always come back to Bruce Wayne is Batman.

[GhostMachine]

In the end this discussion about Dick becoming Batman is kind of pointless really. DC will never make Dick a permanent replacement for Bruce. DC will never make anyone permanently replace Bruce. It will always come back to Bruce Wayne is Batman.

Yep. No one will ever permanently replace Bruce as Batman. In  fact, I'm thinking Bruce may turn out to be a wild card during Blackest Night. I don't expect him to be brought back to life as a result of it, but I will be darn surprised if the bad guys don't end up realizing they've made a horrible mistake if they do in fact make him a Black Lantern (ie, Bruce's willpower lets him fight whatever is making the revived heroes evil and he helps kick the crap out of the other ones and gives Dick his approval as his replacement). Marvel is already bringing Steve Rogers back, and I'll be surprised if DC lets Bruce stay dead much longer than he has.

I actually like Dick as Nightwing (even though his first Nightwing outfit sucked - even for the era it was introduced in), but I wouldn't mind it if he ever does become Robin again....provided its in an outfit with pants! But I don't think it will ever happen, and if it did, I'd expect it to be temporary, with him becoming Nightwing again soon after.

(Just imagine Dick in a Robin costume that's a cross between the one he wore and the one Tim Drake wore most of the time he was Robin, but with the hairstyle Dick had in Batman #687 and wielding the escrima sticks he has sometimes used as Nightwing)

What I really want, however, is a new Batgirl, since DC apparently is happy leaving Batgirl crippled because she's become a roll model to the handicapped (though they could easily find a way to keep her crippled and still let her be Batgirl AND Oracle at the same time). I don't like Cassandra Cain, and her costume is one of the worst I've ever seen.

[Tomato]

Well Dick (Morrison) has a point. Dick hates the cape and it is why he got rid of it, he will never be the "Batman" Bruce was to Gotham or the reader, and Damien's a brat. As normal as it would seem for Dick to just be Batman. He doing it out of need as much as honor. Imagine if you were told you are the boss at your company because your old boss died. Sure, you know what he did and how he acted but he's not you and I'm sure you would complain about the day to day stuff too.

I guess where my problem lies is in Morrison's take, there's no real balance between the his complaint and him doing the job. In "Batman" what I'm seeing is he's coming back and saying the cape needs to be lighter and so forth... I get that. And at the end of the day, he's going forth and BEING Batman in those pages.

In Morrison's though, the whining never ever ever stops. He's questioning his actions on the field, when he's talking to Gordon, when he's at the Batcave, everywhere. I'm sorry, but if I have to take over for my boss, even if I questioned the upper management "where do I take company/department/whatever" kinda stuff, when I got down to doing the same work I've done for years, I go into auto mode. And while I can accept the cape is an adjustment, it should not be that much of a hindrencefor a guy who has taken bullets, broken bones, has taken gashes to Lord knows where and yet still taken on dozens of thugs... really, short of Bruce himself, Dick should be the most capable guy in the DCU for rolling with the punches during a fight.

Dick is more capable then this, that's all I'm saying.

[Blkcasanova247]

Dick is more capable than this, that's all I'm saying.

Absolutely!

[Podmark]

I'm cautiously pro the new Bat status Quo. It's something new and different. I like that.
Yes we all know Bruce is coming back (I'm sure the exact when and how are already planned) but personally I wish DC would let Bruce sit it out for as long as possible. (I'm still annoyed with Marvel bringing Steve back so early...or at all).

Still I'd rather Bruce had retired. Dick take over, but with the Bat family closer. They always want to split them up. Never makes sense.

As for Tim, I'm not really sure yet on my feelings on Red Robin yet. Haven't picked up any issues yet, going to grab them on my shop next sale. The costume is kinda cool, but Tim's seems pretty angsty right now which makes sense but is kinda ugh. I do like him being called Tim Wayne though. And Tim will always be a fav of mine.

I am totally cool with Damien being Robin. Long term it depends how things develop but short term I think it will be a fun dynamic.

Now I just want to know what DC is doing with Batgirl.

[John Jr.]

Dick is more capable than this, that's all I'm saying.

Absolutely!

Agreed. But DC cannot show it now, since Dick is supposed to "fail" as Batman and make way to Bruce's triumphant return. I would like better the Dick as a grown up Robin or Red Robin, but i believe everything will return to pre "Final Crisis" status quo (Dick as Nightwing, Bruce as Batman, Tim as Robin). After all, Hal and Barry took their comics back from the new generation.
Tim's journey could be similar to what Bruce did after FC, he would "find himself" and returns a "stronger Robin", don't believe DC is up to change nowadays.

[Blkcasanova247]

Ok...why does he have to "fail" as Batman. I think that the comment was made to illustrate how awesome Dick Grayson is...the way they're writting him kinda sucks and is incongruous with the man he's become; the man that Bruce said in Infinite Crisis was the "best" he'd ever known. It's not like he's this inept guy who came outta no wheresville and decided to be Batman one day. He is highly trained...incredibly capable and universally respected by his peers and beyond. He should have been written coming outta the gate guns blazing and not missing a beat...not whining about a cape and being pushed around by a "10" year old. Dick's been to the "show" a long time...he proven himself and been through challenges. I'm on board with all the Bat books but they need to change the self doubting crap quick. [color]

[John Jr.]

My point was exactly that. I believe the DC editors think if they make Dick grows to the Batman role (what would be logical, give the character's history) it could make Bruce less "unique". So, IMHO, making Dick so unsure is a (wrong) decision of the DC editors within the lines of "only Bruce can be Batman, so Dick cannot be a great Batman".
A lot of current readers resented Barry's return because Wally  will loose the spotlight, i believe DC fears something similar could happens in Batman. After all, Dan Didio really wanted kill Dick in Infinite Crisis...

[Tomato]

My point was exactly that. I believe the DC editors think if they make Dick grows to the Batman role (what would be logical, give the character's history) it could make Bruce less "unique". So, IMHO, making Dick so unsure is a (wrong) decision of the DC editors within the lines of "only Bruce can be Batman, so Dick cannot be a great Batman".
A lot of current readers resented Barry's return because Wally  will loose the spotlight, i believe DC fears something similar could happens in Batman. After all, Dan Didio really wanted kill Dick in Infinite Crisis...

I think I fall into the resenting Barry thing at first, but I accept it more now. The thing is, Wally was flash for decades... and if new stories can be told with Barry (as they have been with Hal) I'm ok with it, just as I was ok with Hal's return. The change revitalized both characters, so when they came back they became more three dimensional, and more capable of sustaining stories on their own. And let's be clear on another point here... Kyle isn't gone. Wally isn't gone. They're about, even if they aren't in the foreground.

What I think should happen, more then anything, is that we give this "Dick is Batman" development more time then I think/know they will. Because to me, Dick being batman is not only interesting in terms of the legacy, but it'll bring Bruce back stronger then he was before, and help add to the character in a broader sense.

In the end... I think the way to look at is this: When Wally first became Flash, it was a new ordeal for the artists because now, instead of drawing a superhero+flash details, they needed to remember who was behind that mask, and what separated the two characters. Now they need to remember who's behind the mask of Batman is all.

[Spe-Dog]

I'm hoping more is done with Wally to still make him relevant, but the last 2 issues of Rebirth just make him look like an inexperienced kid again with no real character development or savvy. I could be reading a bit much into it but so much was made of Wally being the fastest man alive and to ever live once he touched the speed force that bringing Barry back just seems like trading down...but I digress.

I like the idea of Dick taking over for Bruce but I really thought that if everyone got to "graduate" Tim would have moved on to being Nightwing perhaps and not Red Robin (YUM...stupid commercial.  I always think that when I say his name.)  I get the feeling that Damien might be the catalyst to Bruce's return somehow ala Ra's Al Ghul.  He was trying to reincarnate in Damien's body and since there was a body at the end of Final Crisis I think that somehow Bruce will be reborn in Damien and that is how they will tie up that storyline and return him to the present.  I don't think that it it something that Bruce would willingly do but Damien will probably sacrifice himself in the end so he can end up being noble and shown really being his father's son.  I have no proof just...a Morrisonian hunch so to speak.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I forget what interview I was reading or podcast I was listening to but I know I heard the following out of Morrison's mouth.

"Batman is Bruce Wayne and no one else can be Batman."

He went on to state in that same interview that the reason he is telling this story is to illustrate the extent of that. 

The closest person capable of filling that cowl is Dick.  However, Dick doesn't want to fill that cowl.  I'd argue that he doesn't need to fill it either.  He realizes that Gotham needs Batman.

Tim Drake doesn't have the age or the experience to fill the cowl.  But he has outgrown his role as Robin.  He is where Dick was in the 1970s when it was time for him to come of age and become Nightwing.  Red Robin is the coming of age of Tim Drake in a lot of ways. 

Damien Wayne?  He is still a kid.  He was raised in such a way that violence and killing is acceptable to him.  The not killing thing is something that even Batgirl had to come to terms with.  Sure, it'd be easy for Batgirl to kill her prey as she has the skills for it.  She has developed into a character who has developed a moral core to not kill despite her skills.  By that same accord, Damien is a kid who has been raised by his mother Talia and the League of Assassins pretty much.  He has been trained to kill and has learned this as an accepted method of dealing with his enemies.  I suspect he will develop along similar lines eventually.  Regardless, Damien is still not of age nor maturity to take over his father's (Bruce's) mantle.

There is no doubt Bruce will be back.  This has been said.   Morrison's goals were clearly laid out by him. 

Now rather or not he is as successful has he desires to be is another matter.

And rather or not fans will be able to follow along is another matter as well.