Smash Brothers Ultimate

[Tomato]

I guess we're in thread derailing mode at this point, but I've never really gotten the whole Waluigi thing, but for some reason or another people really want him in Smash, and I am surprised and disappointed Nintendo hasn't done it. Of all the characters, 3 goshdarn season passes for Ultimate, and a gosh darn Piranha Plant, Bayonetta and who knows how many Fire Emblem characters, you still can't play as Geno, Fawful, Meowth, Groose (from Zelda: Skyward Sword, who was basically Flash Thompson with the character development), Girahim, Fii, Demise, Midna, anyone created for Hyrule Warriors, Shantae, Shovel Knight, Chun-Li or Eggman. The Sonic voice actors even recorded a skit for the official twitter mocking the lack of playable Eggman in Smash.

As a quick correction, there's 2 fighters passes for Smash Ultimate, and as far as I've heard that's it. It FEELS like 3 because it's been years now, but we're still only halfway into the second pack. That "only" has 3 more characters left.

See, I want Waluigi because I fell in love with him back when he was the blue Mario guy in Mario Tennis (really it's more of a purple but that wasn't really clear) and it nags my OCD that he's not in Smash. Really though, I'd be just as happy if they'd make a Mario style Costume set aka overalls so I can just make a Mii fighter. At least Geno gets that much, there's no good costume for a Waluigi mii fighter despite his hat being a thing since Smash 4. For me personally though, I'm pretty sold on what we've gotten this generation: We finally got Ridley, K Rool, Daisy, Banjo, Sephiroth... I think Spyro/Crash should get a rep(speaking as a person who has played none of their games but knows their rep), but otherwise I'm pretty happy.

There's always going to be more that "deserved" spots above others... hard not to when Ice Climbers is a thing... but I dunno. Maybe it's just my experience with action figure collecting, where I see waaaay too many people go "this character DESERVES to be made before THAT one, how dare" rather than being happy with the cool characters they got.

[Silver Shocker]

I guess we're in thread derailing mode at this point, but I've never really gotten the whole Waluigi thing, but for some reason or another people really want him in Smash, and I am surprised and disappointed Nintendo hasn't done it. Of all the characters, 3 goshdarn season passes for Ultimate, and a gosh darn Piranha Plant, Bayonetta and who knows how many Fire Emblem characters, you still can't play as Geno, Fawful, Meowth, Groose (from Zelda: Skyward Sword, who was basically Flash Thompson with the character development), Girahim, Fii, Demise, Midna, anyone created for Hyrule Warriors, Shantae, Shovel Knight, Chun-Li or Eggman. The Sonic voice actors even recorded a skit for the official twitter mocking the lack of playable Eggman in Smash.

As a quick correction, there's 2 fighters passes for Smash Ultimate, and as far as I've heard that's it. It FEELS like 3 because it's been years now, but we're still only halfway into the second pack. That "only" has 3 more characters left.

See, I want Waluigi because I fell in love with him back when he was the blue Mario guy in Mario Tennis (really it's more of a purple but that wasn't really clear) and it nags my OCD that he's not in Smash. Really though, I'd be just as happy if they'd make a Mario style Costume set aka overalls so I can just make a Mii fighter. At least Geno gets that much, there's no good costume for a Waluigi mii fighter despite his hat being a thing since Smash 4. For me personally though, I'm pretty sold on what we've gotten this generation: We finally got Ridley, K Rool, Daisy, Banjo, Sephiroth... I think Spyro/Crash should get a rep(speaking as a person who has played none of their games but knows their rep), but otherwise I'm pretty happy.

There's always going to be more that "deserved" spots above others... hard not to when Ice Climbers is a thing... but I dunno. Maybe it's just my experience with action figure collecting, where I see waaaay too many people go "this character DESERVES to be made before THAT one, how dare" rather than being happy with the cool characters they got.

I do know that Waluigi started out with the Tennis games, but, I dunno. The whole thing with him, of course, is that he's supposed to be the rival to Luigi, but unless they plugged it into the sports games (I am genuinely baffled that they put more story into Tennis Aces and the Olympic game than the main games - these people handling the property do realize they're insane, right?) they apparently don't do anything with them. Wario, due to his own pretty damn good games, so IMO he's earned the disctintion of being an unique character all his own the way Mario distanced from DK. When Smash 1 came out I was of the opinion that Wario should have been in it instead of Yoshi based on the fact that he had his own wholly unique rogues gallery, but after Melee came I no longer had that concern.

The other part, though. "The cool characters that they got." You mean the cool characters they're expected to pay extra for. I concede I didn't actually remember exactly how many passes it was and I didn't want to bother looking it up. It's still way too much, especially when they just raised the rates for games (You got your wish finally after 10 years Bobby Kotick)

In Canada, new games now cost over $100 dollars. Just thinking that makes me feel genuinely ill, and I feel confidently the DLC and microtransactions is the main reason why. Street Fighter V has an entire another YEAR of characters coming out, and every single character in SFV has their own story campaign, DLC ones included. Were getting ANOTHER Batman game, which probably means ANOTHER $40 dollar season pass with story content. And it's all about the Batman Family, each of which has been story DLC in the past, so we all know FULL well what the DLC is going to be. The version of the PS5 that actually comes with a disc drive launched at literally Four-Hundred-And-Nintie-Nine-U.S. Dollars (credit where credit was due guys, it was not $599 this time. It's still not good). Guys, I can't do it anymore.

And I don't know if I've ever going to bother with Smash Ultimate because all my friends IRL who used to play it with me bailed on me in the last two years so I'm stuck playing the SP stuff. I haven't decided if I've ever going to buy the DLC unless someone who genuinely tickles my nostalgia bones gets announced. That's why. For example, I never bought the DLC for WIIU, and lucky me, all of those characters were in the base game of Ultimate. It's especially gross for Nintendo, because they've been atrocious in recent about their big releases going down in price or getting the budget rerelease. I didn't get the WiiU Paper Mario until around the time it went out of stock because I was waiting for it to go down in price or get a Nintendo Selects and it never happened (this might be moreso a Canada thing, but it still starts with Nintendo) I have so many titles these days I'm not getting at all because they never go down in price, I actually have to write them down in a notepad file because I can't remember them all. Ande they're still nickling and diming the customers for a game that came out 2 years ago that launched with 40 characters after the Switch became a huge success. Absolutely disgusting. Oh, and lest I forget, I joked for years about Nintendo doing DLC for Pokemon when the games themselves are already functionally DLC, but they've actually done that.

For me personally though, I'm pretty sold on what we've gotten this generation: We finally got Ridley, K Rool, Daisy, Banjo, Sephiroth... I think Spyro/Crash should get a rep(speaking as a person who has played none of their games but knows their rep), but otherwise I'm pretty happy.

There's always going to be more that "deserved" spots above others... hard not to when Ice Climbers is a thing... but I dunno. Maybe it's just my experience with action figure collecting, where I see waaaay too many people go "this character DESERVES to be made before THAT one, how dare" rather than being happy with the cool characters they got.

I've pretty much given up on getting caught up on games for the moment sadly, and I'm even struggling to get caught up with the trailers themselves, so I haven't watched the Sephiroth stuff, but I will admit that is pretty cool. But the FFVII remake in general looks AMAZING and I really do want to get my hands on it and play it sometime especially since I played the demo and checked on Tvtropes and know that they actually got the translation right this time and Western fans are getting the real story and characters this time. I could tell from THE DEMO alone that they actually got Cloud right this time, and yes, internet, Jesse is indeed best girl.

We DO have some neat ones. Dragon Quest Hero is pretty cool and I find it HILARIOUS that he is apparently, as of the launch "more broken than God" and supposedly people wanted Goku for years, then got a spiky haired protagonist designed by Toriama who's more broken than God and they still complain. I do kinda want to try him out. Choosing your moves from a drop down menu is a very inspired and very appropriate choice.

We also have a LOT of Fire Emblem, and the series gave us Fox, Falco and Wolfe (ALL WITH LANDMASTER! I surprised that they didn't add in Krystal with the exact same moveset instead of the staff) and one of the reasons I'm harder on them (I'm letting them get away with Minecraft - I've been told a lot of kids these days really love it and good for them) is that they clearly care little for whether the move sets are redundant. I get it, I'm a Street Fighter fan, I understand that a lot of these characters play almost identical, which is why you should put the characters in.

People like their characters. For me personally, I KNEW I was going to get the DLC for PS All-Stars because Kat from Gravity Rush was in it. And the only reason I would not be so arrogant to suggest she be in Smash is because (1. Sony exclusive characters aren't popping up in these things....yet) and 2. Sony of America doesn't give a pig's knuckle about Kat - Sony Japan does though, and bless them for that)

And Nintendo knows this. The Kid Icarus conversation for Mega Man (one of the my favorite characters in the whole series, along with Pac-Man) is literally Pit, Palutena and Viridi gushing about Mega Man being in the game (LOL Mighty No. 9 and Gunvolt confirmed for Smash - actually no, that would be cool!)

Sure, Demise can easily be a Ganondorf skin or whatever an "Echo Fighter" is suppose to be. After all, you can turn Bowser Jr into every single Koopa Kid, and that warms my little 90's kid heart. And Netherrealm has proven with Mortal Kombat and Injustice 2 (all four Ninja Turtles! I've had the game just sitting on my shelf for two years  ) that you can do alternate skins that are completely different characters with their voices and lines (you can turn Supergirl into Power Girl - complete with an unique voice!) And we don't need all the Zelda characters - that is what Hyrule Warriors is for. But people like their characters and when you have someone like me, who WOULD buy the DLC if they put someone in there who really gets me excited, there you go. I'm sorry, there is NO excuse for Meowth and Eggman to not be in there as playable characters with mechs and gadgets and such when you have Bowser Jr in the Koopa Clown Car with extending boxing gloves that shoot out of it. Hell, you could probably make BOTH of them clones of Bowser Jr.

So...yeah. Smash Ultimate. Lots of fun stuff. I'm glad they brought back the story mode (I still haven't played it  )

[Tomato]

Story mode's fun. There's a lot of tactics there, and you can build some truly broken characters (a friend developed what's come to be known online as "One Punch Mac").

FYI, the reason the sports games have so much story in them (and why Waluigi isn't really in anything outside those games) is because Nintendo, like many big game companies, has a lot of different studios. The one that handles the sports/party games is separate from the "main" studio that handles the bigger titles. They used to have a ton of leeway and did basically whatever, but Nintendo's been cracking down more in recent years and trying to keep the Mario franchises more consistent across the board, at least as far as branding and designs.

Waluigi is in this weird place because he's technically owned by the sports studio specifically (they created him), which is why he doesn't show up in any main series games. It's not that the sports studio is being selfish with him or anything, but because they own the character the main studio would have to jump through additional hoops so they don't really bother, especially given how derivative he is. Smash doesn't have that problem obviously, but because he has no main series games to pull from, it's harder to justify giving him a slot and a moveset.

Sure, Demise can easily be a Ganondorf skin or whatever an "Echo Fighter" is suppose to be. After all, you can turn Bowser Jr into every single Koopa Kid, and that warms my little 90's kid heart. And Netherrealm has proven with Mortal Kombat and Injustice 2 (all four Ninja Turtles! I've had the game just sitting on my shelf for two years  ) that you can do alternate skins that are completely different characters with their voices and lines (you can turn Supergirl into Power Girl - complete with an unique voice!) And we don't need all the Zelda characters - that is what Hyrule Warriors is for. But people like their characters and when you have someone like me, who WOULD buy the DLC if they put someone in there who really gets me excited, there you go. I'm sorry, there is NO excuse for Meowth and Eggman to not be in there as playable characters with mechs and gadgets and such when you have Bowser Jr in the Koopa Clown Car with extending boxing gloves that shoot out of it. Hell, you could probably make BOTH of them clones of Bowser Jr.

So I won't go too into the weeds, but the issue with much of this is that, in an effort to give the DLC characters more value, the team has made a point of not letting any of them be Echo fighters. Even the new FE character has a vastly different playstyle to the multiple Marth clones. They won't make a Demise over Ganondorf, for instance, for exactly the issues you mentioned: They know they're charging a ton for all the DLC, and they don't want people having to pay for a character that isn't worth that money.

Meowth... sorry, but that is not ever going to happen. As is, Smash Ultimate has effectively 6/7 reps from the Gen I already (for context, there are 8 Fire Emblem characters *total*), and aside from his prominence in the anime, there's no reason to include him. He doesn't add to the gameplay, there are more interesting and diverse pokemon they could include (certain generations don't have a rep at all right now), and arguably his role as the pokemon "antagonist" is filled already by Mewtwo. They couldn't even really justify the sort of moveset you're referring to because that's basically anime only. In the games (which is what they're pulling from because Red) all he really has is payday and claws.

Eggman though, I'd love to see that tbh. There's so many boss fights and mechs to pull from for him, that they could do a lot with it. Whether they will... we'll see. I'd love it though.

[Silver Shocker]

So I edited my earlier post before seeing your latest reply, and I mentioned that they now do paid DLC for Pokemon itself. So yeah.

FYI, the reason the sports games have so much story in them (and why Waluigi isn't really in anything outside those games) is because Nintendo, like many big game companies, has a lot of different studios. The one that handles the sports/party games is separate from the "main" studio that handles the bigger titles. They used to have a ton of leeway and did basically whatever, but Nintendo's been cracking down more in recent years and trying to keep the Mario franchises more consistent across the board, at least as far as branding and designs.

Waluigi is in this weird place because he's technically owned by the sports studio specifically (they created him), which is why he doesn't show up in any main series games. It's not that the sports studio is being selfish with him or anything, but because they own the character the main studio would have to jump through additional hoops so they don't really bother, especially given how derivative he is. Smash doesn't have that problem obviously, but because he has no main series games to pull from, it's harder to justify giving him a slot and a moveset.

Color me impressed. I didn't know those things (though considering Nintendo just bought Next Level, and they developed the last Luigi's Mansion games) But they also don't know about a third or the roster that's actually in these games these days.

What I DO know, is the main Mario and the last few Paper Mario games going light on the story and characters was a direct edict from Miyamoto, who, bless his creative soul, has become to Mario a bit like what Gene was to early TNG.

As for the other two things, the other issue, on top of all the other issues I brought up (those would be the weeds?) Is, and I just double checked this, you can't buy an individual character. (checking Nintendo's site confirms I did indeed buy the first pass. Did not remember that) I don't think any other studio for games on any other platform does that. If I want to buy Dan when he launches in SF V I can just buy Dan. No such option with Nintendo.

As for Meowth. First, I don't just mean in Ultimate. He should have been there since at least Melee. And the anime is pretty darn relevant considering the entire cast of Pokemon characters in Smash has voice actors from the anime, with all or almost all 
of the non-playable Pokemon having repurposed audio. And all three voice actors for Pokemon Trainer are voiced by actors from the dub of the anime (Ooh, I see you can now play as female Pokemon Trainer, voiced by Kate Bristol. Nice) And the fact that Crogunk is in Pokken Tourament. And the fact that every single playable Pokemon you can play as in Smash was heavily featured in the anime. And the fact that Pikachu is in Smash because of the anime (I would argue Meowth is the second most iconic Pokemon in Pokemon - and I don't even like the character much, but I'd also argue he's a better character than Pikachu) And the fact that the official name for Red is "Pokemon Trainer". And the fact that Red HAS APPEARED in the anime several times over (as have most of the game protagonists. Ash teamed up with Solana. Twice. And Alann was hinted to exist in the games). And the fact that Ash-Greninja has appeared in at least two games despite it being a fusion of Ash and his Greninja. I had look up Greninja in Ultimate just now on Smash Wiki because I haven't unlocked it in Smash yet and I just went ahead and assumed his Final Smash has been changed to Ash-Greninja (it has not). Ash-Greninja is also not an alternate costume. Genuinely surprised at that.

Taking a moment to talk more specifically about Red. Pokemon Trainer is an adaptation of Red, just like Ash. PT was originally voiced by Michealle Knotz, while Red in the anime, originally depicted as an in-universe character in a movie Ash watched, was voiced by Ash's VO at the time, Veronica Taylor. Alternate universe characters based on Red appeared two times in the PUSA era, included the movie "I choose You" which itself starred an alternate universe Ash. Furthermore, the mainline games version of Red canonicly doesn't use Squirtle and Ivysaur. You can only get one of the starters from the Professor in any mainline game and your rival always get one other, so if a player character canonically has all three, he got at least one somewhere else. And he appears as an NPC in canon in future games with a canon team, headlined by Pikachu in nearly every game, as well as Venusaur and Blastoise.

And the fact Jessie and James were added to Yellow AND Let's Go. (I had to look them up in that too just to see if they had any Pokemon other than Koffing/Weezing and Ekans/Arbok. They did not. I'm surprised. I thought for sure they'd have added Wobbefett). Wobuffet also appears in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, and directly references the anime by saying (in that game you can tell what the Pokemon are saying) "That's right" which is a double reference to the anime (it's Meowth's catchphrase AND a translation of the Japanese wordplay involved with Wobufett that entire character is based around in the anime)

I also forgot about this and only rediscovered it when doing some research on Bulbapeda but Pokemon Puzzle League for N64 featured Ash, Gary Oak, Jessie, James, Meowth and Richie.

Actually that's a good point. I have been told the fandom has wanted the Trio specifically for Smash since the first game. I only ever wanted Meowth, but having the Trio as a kind of Pokemon Trainer-esque character would also negate some of the reasons you gave about why he wouldn't be a good player to play as.

I don't even know if Jessie or James or Ash or someone else is in any of those little stickers or trophies in Smash.

And the fact that the anime has used an in-canon multiverse more than once. And the fact that everyone in Smash is a doll representing the franchises they come from. And the fact that the Pokemon franchise has pretty much always been an advertisement for itself, to the point that Mega Evolution was featured in nostalgic adaptation of Red&Blue/Green. And as for the moveset, Smash had made up moves for Pokemon for the game that weren't in the Pokemon games. Pikachu's Volt Tekka was likely the inspiration for Electro Ball (thought Volt Tekka itself may or may not have itself been inspired by Volt Tackle) and Shadow Ball appeared in Mewtwo Strikes back before it appeared in the games (and may have been created for the movie, as it does unnamed in the film, all future anime depictions of Shadow Ball are clearly based on it, and it is of course in Smash. It probably inspired Aura Sphere so. Also I've assumed beam Lugia fired in Pokemon 2000/Power of One was Aeroblast, which debuted in Gold and Silver). It's pretty hard to argue Meowth not being in there considering Jigglypuff was in there from the very first game. And admittedly, while Jiggleypuff is hardly God-tier, it's always been a favorite of mine.

And, as of Journeys, where Ash has a Reolu, which I have been told was a fan suggested pick for years, I assume because the story connections between the two of them over the years (me, personally I'm far more impressed by the Dragonite) other than Mewtwo (and I wouldn't put it past them) Ash has EVERY POKEMON you can play as Smash, other than Jigglypuff, (and I wouldn't put it past them to do that too - since they wrote it back in in Sun and Moon, and Ash got Sandile which was a replacement for Jigglypuff in the anime) even if it's the pree-volved version (especially now that Journeys confirmed that Pikachu evolved from a Pichu.

They might as well make Brock a playable character with Smash as a clone of Pokemon Trainer with Crogunk, Sudowoodo and Steelix (oh, shoot, now I want that too!)

One fewer Fire Emblem character is not going to kill them (especially since Nintendo obviously spends a lot more money on the voice actors for the FE franchise than the vo cast for literally everything else. They even recast Palutena and Viridi)