DCUG - Canceled

[Vertex]

can some one tell me why my post was deleted

For god sakes!!! Look at your name man!!!

[Cyber Burn]

   If people don't like me after this, then that's alright.

  Everyone has made their points, Benton agreed to drop IPS's work, I think we should drop this here. I'd hate for something to be said that couldn't be taken back. I'd also hate to see the community break up over this, I know it won't, but you never know. I think that this thread should be locked, and anything that anyone really needs to say, should be left said in private. Thank you.

[Vertex]

but it's not a private matter. . it's a public community rule that was broken. It isn't settle until it's decided if that rule is to be recinded if so I say you should all go back and apologize to anybody else ever forced to follow it.. or have this fixed.

[GogglesPizanno]

how does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....

[bearded]

i made a mod based on rumble a couple of years ago.  it was nearly as big as dcug.  i think 2 ppl downloaded it.  nobody said boo, because it wasn't very good, and nobody downloaded it.
everyone is downloading this mod, and we have issues?  why issues over this and none over mine?
is it because this mod is successful?  jealousy over success?
i think any individual points you have made, ips, have been countered by various other ppl.  why ignore tommyboy?  and some of what cat said?  and other ppl.
i honestly don't think any rules have been broken.  what if he called it a rumble room mod?  would that be better?
and if someone doesn't want their work in the mod, just let bg know, and say it publicly.  i will personally delete anything on my hard drive.  like i did with xdud.

[Vertex]

how does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....

YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.

[bearded]

YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.

ok.  what about the skirmish missions?  they use a lot of characters.  the rumble rooms wouldn't be complete without them.

[tommyboy]

tommy with all due respect this is "almost" a rerun of the old electro fx pack debacle. Yes Benton made a mod.. yes Benton is a great guy with wonderful intentions... but then he tossed in a TON of extra material that honestly is not part of the mod in hopes of encouraging something.. but it still breaks the same rule and sets a bad precedent. the rule is no big mass download packages. Benton did a torrent type release.. without having a torrent.. rule broken. Personally I never agreed to rule as I stated above.. but it's still a rule and keeps things like what went with electro from happening again.

"Almost" a rerun, except that Benton announced his intention well before execution, as far as I know he sought permission, and has a rationale for including a lot of "content", that it's all the DCU, all a playable part of what the Mod is intended to be.
My AvengersSpecial did much the same thing, as did my LSH Mod. Bearded and Furie's Rumble Mod did. Dannyboy's DC Mod did. Big Mods, lots and lots of characters and meshes and skins, many of the same ones you'll find in DCUG. That precedent, or "rule" is set already.
There is a difference between lumping everything in a torrent, or ditching all the readmes as Electro did, and putting together a Mod with a lot of characters. There is a difference between a big Content pack and a Mod. This IS a Mod.
You and I both sat on that Hub, we come from the same place as far as methods of distribution are concerned for our own work, I think (we don't mind).
I respect if others feel their work should not be included in Mods but they need to make that clear, and hopefully have and will.
The problem I have here with this "rule" is this;
How many characters/meshes/skins may I include in a Mod before I break the rule?
And who gets to decide that Benton, or I or anyone else has included "too much" in a Mod?
So what if my mod has a "story" that "requires" every single Marvel and DC character? Seriously, I have an Avengers/JLA Mod that isn't far off that, based on the comic books, it would probably dwarf the dcug with all the heroes/villains/costumes involved.
If it's the Will of the Community that some line has been crossed here, lets make a Poll, and have the Community vote. Or have the Admins decide or something. Because as it stands, I see no clear "rules" in this area.
I'll abide by a decision if there is one, even if I disagree, but I'm of the opinion that no rule is being broken here. That would be my vote.
I can see what you are saying, and even that you could be right, Vertex, but we may need to have this cleared up and clearly defined somehow.

[GogglesPizanno]

how does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

Oh for peet's sake, could someone tell him specifically what the content is that he shouldn't have included, he can remove it and lets be done with this nonsense....

you aren't paying attention to what's been posted. which is fine but there is no reason to post if you aren't man.

YAY thank you okay according to rules any material that is no included in the actual mod..  as in the stories he created that required them.

OK Pardon my ignorance here, Im not trying to keep this going, but I need some clarification for any possible stuff I may or may not release in the future.

But are you telling me that If I release a mod that the "community rules" say I can only include content that actually appears within the missions of the campaign of said mod?

When was this decided?

What if the said unused content was stuff I may intend to use at some point in the future, and the creator gave the go ahead and said that its use is ok. Shouldn't the creators approval trump the community agreed rules (of which I never knew about?)

[AfghanAnt]

Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.

But unfortunately the problems still persist. I think there's no harm in suggesting another idea to help diffuse future situations, y'know?

And the final say in that was "BANNED" as I recalled, no offense to BG, but how is this different (with all the extra content wise).

[BentonGrey]

That's it.  This is over.  I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here.  I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable.  I don't believe that I have done anything wrong, nor that I have broken any "rule" established before I was a part of the community.  We have two people saying that I have broken a rule, and many more saying that I have not.  I have demonstrated my dedication to this project by pursuing it to this point, and I am not about to abandon it now.  I WILL be producing campaigns and missions that utilize the content that I have added, and I'm hoping that others will join me in this.  If others can add content into mods that they intend for future expansions, why should I not have the same ability?  As long as I still have permission from all of the creators whose work I use, I believe I am in the right, and that my efforts will help the community.

so the mod is the important thing. great. so what's the big deal? why won't you remove the stuff you are NOT using?! include it in any addons you do later if you ever do them. why are you making such a big deal about this?

I can only assume that you have not been paying attention, it is ALL the mod, the thousands of stories I've written for characters in the strings.txt, every single power description, every single short description, the hundreds of characters created in every detail and the limitless potential that they bring.  That is why I won't delete the "extra" content, because. it. isn't. extra.

[Cyber Burn]

  If people don't like me after this, then that's alright.

  Everyone has made their points, Benton agreed to drop IPS's work, I think we should drop this here. I'd hate for something to be said that couldn't be taken back. I'd also hate to see the community break up over this, I know it won't, but you never know. I think that this thread should be locked, and anything that anyone really needs to say, should be left said in private. Thank you.

how does removing my content address the issues that i've raised? he is still providing content he shouldn't be. it still keeps other artists work from being discovered. it's still something our community agreed not to do. etc etc etc.

   How, specifically, does the DCUG keep other artists work from being discovered? If someone really wants their work to get attention, well...that's what the "Skins" section of the forum is for.

[M25]

Banning this kind of mod sets a dangerous precedent.

The mod has original content both in the expression of the characters and stories included.  More importantly, it allows people to tell and share their own stories within the scope of the mod.  It fosters creativity.  

I've tried to make it easy to write the stories with EZ script, but I always knew it would never really take off unless there was a sandbox to play in.

Further, I suspect people will customize this mod to their own liking because it is a sandbox.  They'll change powers, fx, skins and even meshes.  They'll add new characters or new versions of existing characters.  They should be encouraged to do so.  The community can even thrive on things like this, if it chooses to.

[President Raygun]

Hey everybody, i'm fairly new here ( been haunting this site for almost a year now ). First off I'd like to say that I'm  a player not  a creator/ artist and I sympathize with IPS' view that (new) players may not seek out other content if presented with so much of it at one time, that being said,I have to say (and this is no knock on BG) the the DCUG is not the end all be all of dc related content.When I 1st started playing this game and discovered that mods were great way to get skins & meshes I thought "Great", but as my love for this game grew I realized I had to seek out more and thats what drew me to this site. I think if the players have even half the passion for the game that you the artists do I don't think they'll settle for just whats in this mod. I know i didn't settle for the original DCU ;I've spent hours searching for websites, going thru yahoo groups, even the internet archive. I've practically downloaded everything I could find even if I didn't need it. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't believe We (the players) will stop requesting dc content because of this mod, just as I don't believe You ( the artists ) will stop creating it (whether it's requested or not) If a player's gotten to this site they have to know there's more out there than just the DCUG.

[tommyboy]

For the Record, any of my Meshes, keyframes or skins may be used in any Mod, including DCUG, as main or "extra" content, as long as the readmes are present, or credit is given.
I'd be a little less happy about a giant torrent or Content pack, but so long as I get my credit, would not hunt you down like a dog.
Might help to have a Mod Use Permission Thread like the Nifskope one.
That would establish clear ground rules for usage.

Which we now seem to need.

[AfghanAnt]

That's it.  This is over.  I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here.  I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable.  I don't believe that I have done anything wrong, nor that I have broken any "rule" established before I was a part of the community. 

Take some action? Unfortunately action was taken and that rule was created. For you to say it is "unfair" would make the rule only apply to those who action was taken against i.e. Electro and a few others who wanted it.

I personally think that if the mods are cool with you ignoring rules, than I should be able to. I love using foul language but I can't and I wouldn't dream of asking "I know there is a rule but could you allow it for me because I've giving so much and worked so hard".

Also it would destroy this board if the rule was ignored for just you. And if this repackaging of content is cool than why aren't torrents or even the hub? I never had an actual problem with any of those ideas. But if you post a torrent, your banned according to the rules.  Hell, why not let people start releasing skopes of meshes that aren't allowed as well. Why don't we just ignore every rule that was established because we don't like them anymore.

Banning this kind of mod sets a dangerous precedent.

This precedent was set years ago unfortunately with the Electro's club and fx pak, which even though some people said yeah sure, was banned because he essentially got everything he could find and was organizing it for easy access. Which is the actual problem here. It's no the actual mod. It's the additional content that is packaged along with it.

[GogglesPizanno]

I thought the electro thing was more about him packaging up mass amounts of effects AND editing them without permission (kitbashing textures etc....) but its been a while so I may be remembering that wrong.

[AfghanAnt]

I thought the electro thing was more about him packaging up mass amounts of effects AND editing them without permission (kitbashing textures etc....) but its been a while so I may be remembering that wrong.

That and reposting meshes, skins, fxs, and herofiles in yahoo groups and the such.

[bearded]

so...we agree there is no comparison between this mod and whatever electro did.
i think the vote needs to be what the definition of a mod is.

[Vertex]

so...we agree there is no comparison between this mod and whatever electro did.
i think the vote needs to be what the definition of a mod is.

I agree to no such thing, and I say so as one who actually likes the idea of what Benton has done.. but knowing full well it breaks a long standing rule that was made to stop people like electro when he did what he did. Many of us might like what Benton has done.. many may not like it.. but make no mistake, to do this the rule should have been changed.. not circumvented to get what someone wanted. Benton is a great guy, has all the best intentions but I know when the spirit of a rule is broken and this was just a reinvention of something that was ruled forbidden.. hidden under the umbrella of a real mod he made.

[BentonGrey]

I'd like to make something clear, again.  I had never heard of this rule until IPS brought it up awhile ago.  That being said, I still don't believe that I have broken it, and I would very much like to have the matter put to the test.  I will not be censured by one or two people, but if the community agrees that this is what happened, that would be something else.  I still have not been contacted by any other content creators, and many of them have come here in support of me.  I ask again that we put an end to this by some method other than arguing about it in endless circles. 

[tommyboy]

benton you were part of the community when the electro thing happened. it was more than 3 years ago now. probably around 5.

this isn't some sort of rocket science. it's common sense that we don't have the right to redistribute each other's work unless it is expressly given. that's what electro did. he collected everyone's fx and repackaged them as his own group's fx pack and added some of his own stuff to it also and then hosted it privately to exclusive group members and made it available to the public. and then he said "no way, i don't care" and refused to remove the content. he effectively did the same thing that was done here. we just happen to like benton more. if it was electro doing this or anyone like vlad or catmanexe, he'd be banned already.

we don't need new permissions lists we just need to follow the existing guidelines that we have had. we have got along perfectly well understanding how to respect each other up until now. why make another list in 2 years (if there is a community left), when the next guy puts in some hard work to make a name for himself and breaks the rules, we'll be doing this all over again.

no one is saying this is some malicious thing. it's just a mistake - you thought it would be fine to include this stuff if it was part of a mod because we do that all the time, but it turns out it's not ok because of how it was executed. admit it's a mistake and remove the content you aren't using. it's that simple.

we could throw around the arguement of the sandbox to play in some more... but take out those meshes and skins you aren't using, and the character dats and templates are still setup for anyone to pop in their own choice of mesh and skin. the sandbox still exists. you said yourself the majority of work was the modding not the collection of the content. so, why are we still having this conversation?!

We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.
That is why we DO need a permissions list, not self-appointed arbiters of what the "rules" are, or what their "spirit" is.
I've said he can use my stuff, so have others. THAT is now "the rules".

I appreciate that you guys genuinely believe that you are acting in accord with the best interests of the community, and abiding by it's established practices. I even respect that. Under slightly different circumstances I'd agree with you.

However, this thread makes it very clear that the old "rules" as they stood were ill-defined and not written down anywhere.
Now, anyone like you who wants out of this Mod can say so, and their wishes will be respected.
As will mine. Because anyone can go and read what I, the person who owns that work of mine, stipulates about it's use. It's clearly stated and unambiguous, I think.

We needed a nifSkope permissions list.
We needed a mod use permissions list.
We now have both.
I'm sorry if some feel some sacred pact has been broken here, but I never signed up to it in the first place, and it's never been written down, or until now applied to any other Mod.
For my part, I've said my piece and done what I felt I needed to do. I'm taking a 24 hour cooling off period from this.
I don't think I'm going to help any more by posting more in the near future.

[bearded]

let's all be friends and calmly come up with a solution instead of taking sides and being devisive.
like...make a campaign that uses all the meshes, like avengers special!
or make mesh packs that go with the different campaigns.

[BentonGrey]

I for one was never part of the discussions, or whatever else happened with Electro.  I don't know, maybe I was writing my thesis or something at the time, but for whatever reason I guess I wasn't around.  I also wasn't around for any of these discussions about content torrents (which my mod is not, I will state for the millionth time, and your saying it is does not necessarily make it so) hindering creativity.  All I know is that I do not believe that my work will change human nature.  People who are going to contribute and pursue new things will do so, whether it exists or not, but it very well may encourage people to get their feet wet modding.

The difference between Electro and I is that, unlike him, I DO have permission.  Whether or not YOU agree with how I got it, or whether it is still valid or not doesn't really matter, as I have now removed my mod's previous iteration from its hosting site, so your work is not being distributed.  What matters is, do the other creators agree that I still have permission.  So far, everyone has.  I haven't heard back from a few content creators yet, but they definitely still have the opportunity to pull their work from my project.  It is their right, and one I will respect, especially since they have been minding their own business this entire time.

[Champion 2 of 11]

Some people are  sooooo throwed off thats all Im saying...Its a game people no one is making money off of! It's just for fun!

[bearded]

seriously.  i've got a mod.
fury gave me permission years ago to use rumble as i liked.  and i've mentioned to BG using his DCU as a base.
rumble needs all those characters to work.  one of the reasons i'm so excited about it.
now all i have to do is convert it.  will do.
rumble also has a lot of custom code from me adding new stuff.  give me a day or 3 and all the meshes will be used.  and i'm not just saying this now, i discussed it with BG a long time ago.

[Podmark]

I just want to point that we don't actually have a RULE about mass content releases, I just checked. We may have a unspoken rule about it (I honestly had no idea), but if you want to enforce it get it written down somewhere. It is far too easy for people to have missed these things, or be newcomers. This is why I created and maintain the nifskope permissions list - to avoid problems like this.

I really don't want to get too deep into this, I honestly don't have the time for it but here we go:

The concern of a mass content release screwing over other creators is probably not significant. The type of people who would be getting it are either a) People who lost their old content, b) new users who need to get caught up or c) people who don't care about the community at all and just want to play the game (these people shouldn't matter to us as they won't be posting here anyway). I really can't think of many others who'd even want such a thing in it's entirety, and individual meshes, skins etc can be acquired much easier.

Any member who sticks around or is already a member of our community who gets the mass content package is likely to come across the still active content available, unless they're only hanging around in general which probably means they aren't interested anyway which makes them again irrelevant to that discussion. So even if a content pack is all C6, if they come here there is every chance they'll discover AA, IPS, Megatallica etc and the rest of the active skinners. Old skinners/meshers etc is an entirely different thing especially if they're not actively hosted anywhere. But that's not even really a content pack issue, I mean how many newbies are going to know about Gryphon or Volt?

Now this might mean more if we were a larger more active community, but we're a small shrinking one with probably no hope of getting significantly larger. This website is basically our only hub for content and discussion and excluding yahoo groups we have very limited content sites. There is so much content that is dispersed or unavailable that a mass download pack of some kind would actually be quite helpful to many people.  

A content pack could help bring in new fans by cutting out the painstaking search to find meshes and skins you want. Stuff like that can turn off newbies. I can't see a pack affecting current members. On the other hand a content pack increases the likeness of someone just grabbing the pack and leaving never to return again, and some of those people might have stuck around had they been forced to come here and find stuff. I have no way of determining which of the two is more likely in our situation so I'll leave it like that.

There are certainly permission issues involved with such a release but presumably those don't apply here as Benton has acquired said permission either directly or indirectly based on the read mes. (the argument that the permissions in the read me didn't account for this only applies on case by case basis - for example the current wording of my read me allows for this situation).

If we were to allow a content pack the stipulations I would put on it would be that it list the address of FR and encourages downloaders to join here, and also the addresses of as many active content sites as possible, encouraging the downloader to check out those works and keep an eye out for new stuff. Permission, either direct, or implicit based on readme files would be required to place stuff in such a pack, and I would probably exclude newer works and stuff that is easily available on active websites (yahoo groups do not count). And of course credit must be listed for all content.

This is all in general about a content pack release, I'll discuss Benton's mod specifically shortly in a new post.

[AfghanAnt]

We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.

WTF does Obama have to do with this. You guys just took this to a level that his actually ticked me off.  I may be drunk but that is it I'm done with this board.

Later peeps, HF will be updated but dont except me to report updates here.

[Podmark]

We are still having this conversation because the "community", Benton or Barack Obama don't get to decide how MY work is distributed.

WTF does Obama have to do with this. You guys just took this to a level that his actually ticked me off.  I may be drunk but that is I'm done with this board.

Later peeps, HF will be updated but dont except me to report updates here.

See this is why it sucks everytime we have our annual wars.
ARRGH!

[Shazam]

I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.