DCUG - Canceled

[Gremlin]

I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.

Seconded. Thoroughly seconded. This is hurting everyone, even people unconnected with the project, and needs to stop.

[Cyber Burn]

   When I first started playing  , Flash_22798 had given me all of his back-up disks with FF content. I'm talking meshes, skins, mods, etc, both from other creators, as well as stuff that he did. I was basically given a "mass content file" that had almost every character that I could ask for in one shot. At no time did I draw the conclusion that I was set for life or that I had no reason to return to these boards. If anything, it gave me a curiosity to find out what else was out there, to check out other creators, to check out original characters, and an opportunity to belong to something where I could escape from everyday stress.
 This whole debate has been really frustrating, I think that there's always going to be differences in opinion between members, but there comes a point when you have to ask yourself, "Do I really need to come here just to acquire added stress?" I'm personally in a position to where I just can't handle any more stress, and can't think of any reason to add to anyone else's stress levels either. Maybe it would be beneficial to take some time away from the boards, cool off a bit, and then be able to return (hopefully) refreshed. If not, it's just a game.

[Johnny Patches]

(Episode 3472 of the Epic Saga continues the battle for Cobra Castle!)
Munch munch Munch munch    Munch munch Munch
                     

[The Hitman]

I believe there are those here that need to get a reality check. You need to listen to yourselves. This community will soon be a thing of the past, because you're all set on destroying it yourselves.

Seconded. Thoroughly seconded. This is hurting everyone, even people unconnected with the project, and needs to stop.

Third...ed? Yeah, I'm barely a content provider, and I'm gettin' razzled by some of these responces.

So, to double check, this all boils down to "the magic line" between a mod and a mass downloader, right? Because, as I read it, Benton went all out trying to get permission from everyone's content he used. So permission's not the issue.

On the one hand, we have folks saying it's good for the community, that it'll garner creativity, and overall be a boon to the community. These are primarily the folks that see this as a mod.

On the other hand, we have folks that see this as a noting more than a thinly- veiled "mass- downloader" and believe that this will kill the interest in other's content, which, in a community this small, is never a good thing.

(And on a third hand, we have Johnny Patches watching G. I. Joe or something.)

Does that sum it up? Feel free to correct me (as long as youall don't jump all ove my case).

Anyways, I think we need to take into consideration who will be downloading this... "project" (and I say project as to not tick off the overlords). The vast majorty of us that still play the game are, in some way, shape, or form, content providers. I have to ask- how many of you have multiples of the same character that you use. I don't mean varient costumes and such, but the same character done by two or three or four different skinners/meshers? Has that stopped you from using similar content?

What I'm getting at is, most of us know that when one skin is done, unless it's an obscure character, that skin is not the end- all for the character. That would be silly.

It's the same here. Just because Bent's project has a Batman in it would never stop me from checking out other fine folks' Batmen (Batman's? Can you plural Batman?) 95% of us get that. The other 5% are folks that don't give a hoot about the community and will do whatever they want anyways.

So, in a long- winded and very confusing and backward way, I'm saying that I agree with Bent on this one. I think that as long as he had permission from every content provider, he's in the clear.

Now, everyone can chew me out, and tell me I'm wrong, 'cause let's face it, every time I post something more that "Happy Birthday" or "Look great" someone usually does.

[BentonGrey]

As far as I can see IPS, there is still no "we," just you.  It isn't an us versus them thing, it is a you versus them thing.  Every content creator I have talked to, and I have talked to a good portion of them by now, is not against this.  Some of them are concerned, some are afraid that this mod could be misused, but even more of them are hopeful that it will garner creativity.  Still, none of them have told me that they don't think I should release it, or that I should bow to your demands.  There is no "we," so please stop pretending that there is, and stop being so dramatic. 

Someone suggested that the readme for the DCUG include info about the remaining content sites in the FF community, as well as links to FR.  This was something that (well, at least to link to FR) I had consciously avoided doing before, because I didn't want someone reporting my project as copyright infringement and that getting back to the community here.  Still, if the community is willing to take that (hopefully) minor risk, I would be happy to include that kind of info in the readme.  I'd actually be happy to include it in a cutscene in the mod itself, as well.

[AfghanAnt]

While I gave you permission it doesn't mean I don't think aspect of your mod aren't breaking rules. I.E. IPS isn't alone. While I may not like the rules I think if you break one, you should break them all.

I can't wait until everyone gets random!

[steamteck]

hey mr soap box please don't call me dramatic.

it's not a ME thing. if you think that, you haven't taken stock of the situation properly.

I know I've got no gravitas but I  hope you'll listen and enlighten me/us. I really would like to see this community strife disappear.

Ok, fair enough, But its certainly not any not the creators on the mod permission thread.But putting aside What are the fans like myself doing so much differently than other communities that fosters resentment. If we don't make anything what can we do other than praising, giving a little donation now and then. I always feel really excited about new stuff and try to say so.

Modders are a different beast than fans and are creators also seems to me. In other communities, meshes skins are often included in mods with the creators permission. I understand you feel the DCUG creates a monopoly so that's a separate issue. You big guns will have to hash that out. Believe me I understand!

I can see how scoping could cause tension but again they're producing something even if not totally original content. They are  not just fans IMO. Obviously caution and respect is needed there and I have seen some tension but also seen people genuinely don't want to disrespect anyone.

What do think the fans need to do? I may be missing something but I don't see anything different than in other modding communities I've been around. If somehow I/we could make the creators happier I'm sure we'd like to.

[AfghanAnt]

... But its certainly not any not the creators on the mod permission thread.But putting aside What are the fans like myself doing so much differently than other communities that fosters resentment. If we don't make anything what can we do other than praising, giving a little donation now and then. I always feel really excited about new stuff and try to say so.

The difference is there are rule, man! Rules that should be followed or you will be punish! WHERE IS THE MOTHER frelling PUNISHMENT!


EDIT:
frelling? What does that even mean!?! I hate the frelling censorship on this board.

[billdamn22]

I just want to say that these arguments that happen from time to time are the main reasons I take long sabbaticals from this forum. I have been a member here for close to 6 years and I have never heard of this "rule" of mass distribution. If it does exist, it should be posted under rules and regulations. Not everyone who is a member knows of the inner workings of why this member was banned or what they did in the first place.
I will now go back into the shadows and observe from the sidelines as usual.

[Previsionary]

I was going to post a long post...but I'm not. This thread is bothering me. It has every component possible that made me jaded with this community. Almost every trope...right here...this thread. Discouraging and reminds me as to why I'm nowhere near as active as I used to be.

I don't know where all the "VS." things came from. It's not a versus issue. It's a community problem now. Keep it that way.

This argument shouldn't have gone on this long. The positive thing that came from it...FR was actually active again. Good job. Moving on. The simple solution for everyone involved was to come to a simple compromise. A compromise that everyone could agree with and benefit from. I don't know why that conclusion was skirted around on for so long, but that should have been the finale. You really want to benefit the community...you sometimes make compromises. Fact. That's the way it is.

So this is to you, BG. What compromises are you willing to make with your work? As you can see, the way it is currently set up is causing negative waves. Time to middle-line 'em, eh? It's no longer about what you want...you have to do it for the community now if you really want them--us--to have and play with it as a base. And if no compromises can be made...I'm at the point now where I'd rather not see it at all. I'm burnt out on the mod and this thread--and I haven't even played it yet. That's how messed up this problem is.

And if need be...let's make a set of rules please. What Electro did years ago doesn't fully apply to BG. There're many variables involved. FR is "now" the hub of the FF community...so it should also contain what is expected somewhere on the site. That's my thinking.

And yes, this may be a little bolder than I usually am...but I don't even care anymore. Just find a conclusion and move the heck on.

[Courtnall6]

Sorry for not adding my 2 cents earlier but there was a whole lot to catch up on.

I must admit the DCUG mod had me confused. I thought it was a complete story mod with every character being used and not a massive downloadable resource. I commend Benton for trying to create something for this community for the simple fact that I'm surprised we're all still here. Freedom Force is old. We're still playing it due to all the creators that have left and the ones that have stuck around. I keep skinning because it's fun and very rewarding (choosing to start skinning for this game is directly responsible for me meeting Zapow and working on Honor Brigade...which lead to going to World Wizard Chicago 3 times and eating pizza with Gail Simone ).

I can see how this mod would hurt other creators. I knew Benton was using some of my skins...hell I was planning to update my Hawkman/girl skins plus adding Thanagar soldiers for it...but didn't have the time. It would be very disappointing to me if a player downloads the mod and doesn't bother to look for other people skins to use because mine are "standard". There are talented creators here who deserve to have there work appreciated. For this kind of mod it would have been better to include as many different creator works as he could squeeze in...or none at all.

If Benton does not want to remove any unused content for his mod than he should, at the very least, "spread the love" as they say and vary the creator content more....don't focus on 3 or 4 skinners for example...get every skinner's DC work in there. If he used my Superman say...then don't use my Batman or Wonder Woman...go with Ultimate Evil's, or AA's, or any of the other hundreds of Batman and Wonder Woman skins out there. Let the modder who is planning to make a full story mod choose who's skins to hunt down. Let the player comb through all this fantastic work we've done and select what works for them. I remember that being the most fun when I first started playing...going from site to site gathering all the skins (it was just skins at the time) I could find and testing them all.

In the end I would hate to see anyone leave over this discussion. We are a very small community that can't handle many more losses.

[BentonGrey]

You're right Prev, absolutely right, this should never have gone on this long.  I do want to benefit the community, so I'm walking away.  This isn't about the community, it is about one or two people dictating to the rest of us what is right and wrong based on something no one can agree on.  So, no compromise, no knuckling under, no mod.  If I thought it would solve the problem, I could throw together a few simple Skirmish mission in which you faced waves of characters, thereby "using" all of that content that is just sitting there, completely useless, unless you happen to know how to use the Rumble Room.  The catch is, that won't solve the problem, because it would still have "too many" skins and meshes according to our self appointed mother, and paranoia about what this might mean seems to be the driving force behind much of this nonsense.  As far as gutting the DCUG, the other "compromise" suggested, it would change the entire dynamic of what I have been trying to do.  If this isn't the DC "Universe" anymore, than it isn't what I started out to make, and it isn't really what I want to spend my time on.  I'm not willing to fight anymore, I'm tired, and I've got better things to do with my time.  I am sorry, because I know the community, the real community, and not an amorphous "we" used to shove a single point of view down all of our collective throats, has been incredibly supportive of my project.  I can't tell you how many PM's I've gotten thanking me for my work and expressing outrage about this thread.  Thank you all.  

C6, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and eventually, everything would have been used.  I don't have the energy at this point to go hunting through my collection and switching out skins because something might happen, because some lazy soul might not engage in the community the way we have.  Yeah, my mod may have more C6 than other things, but that is because I made it for myself, and I like those skins.  It also contains the work of TONS of lesser known skinners who have generously contributed content.  If anything, I would hope it would have encouraged people to explore, rather than to stagnate.

I started this for myself, and I wanted to share it with the community because I believed it would help us.  I started it because I wanted to give back some small portion of the incredible enjoyment and entertainment that it has given me.  I shall continue it for myself, and I'm sorry I won't be sharing the rest of it.  This is not an "I hate you all and I'm leaving" post.  I'll still be around...but maybe not for a few days.

[Champion 2 of 11]

Hey everyone BentonGrey chose the meshes skins he liked the most to go into this, whatever it is! why be mad at him its what he likes like I said its just a game. There is alot of skinners, meshers, fx makers, skopers, and modders out here and people are gonna like who they like. Why trip! I like seeing everyones work doesnt mean I have to use everyones work! And I dont believe BentonGrey ment any harm.

[Figure Fan]

WOW

Okay, before anyone strikes me from their high horse, I just read through every post in this discussion since January 18.

First of all, and this is directed at IPS: How does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists. This is a lousy point. Also, you seem to be toting this argument that all content is of equal quality in the community, and this is simply not true. Without naming names, the sad truth of that matter is that some content is simply just not as good as other content, and that people are naturally going to flock to what they like best, which just so happens to be what a lot of people like best. This decision is entirely subjective, and some people prefer different content, but we all know that certain creators end up getting a bigger slice of the 'download pie'. If I were still an active skinner, I wouldn't expect my work to be getting bundles of attention. If someone likes something I've done, then they are free to pursue, download, and use it in their game. Otherwise, I don't regulate what they 'should and 'should not' look to as alternatives.

AA--you know that we all enjoy your skinning work, and eagerly check your skins thread for updates. Don't feel so frustrated by all of this. Regardless of whether or not other work is included in this mod--or any mod for that matter--there's still going to be posters like me (and countless others) who know your work specifically and who will use it in their game. You're an amazing artist, bud.

C6--When you post in these discussions, you pretty much command attention. I agree with you that including a plentiful selection of artists' works is a good idea, but I don't feel that it is required. I think there are plenty of users who, like you (and me, apparently) will look through the various content sites and pick and choose their favorites. This is, as you mention, part of the fun of it.

Benton--I understand what you're trying to do here. I think it's a good idea, and have felt this way for the entire time you've been working on this. I know that you aren't evil, or out to destroy the sanctity of the community. To believe so is being dramatic, put simply.

I wasn't going just let this annual war of ours pass without saying SOMETHING. I just think that channeling the creatives of the community and seeking to defend them is somewhat silly, in a sense, seeing as how we all don't feel threatened by the release of a mod.

[Ares_God_of_War]

I'm going to preface this by saying I respect every creator that has been in this thread and probably have multiple skins from just about everyone here. My train of thought on this issue is basically "where is Benton advertizing his Mod?" Save for the actual download I believe everything has been on this website. I'm pretty sure that any searching for this mod would bring about 5 or 10 hits to this site. People are curious and if they are looking for content I am pretty sure they would search around the website. Me, when I find a forum I usually go around and poke a bit just to see whats going on. I personally believe for every random person who just downloads this mod and nothing else there would be another 4 or 5 who poke around and find all sorts of new things they like.

I can understand the frustration some of the content providers feel. I am not very artistic or handy with paintshop otherwise I would be making stuff as well. Because of that I do not have the sense of pride in the work I would be doing where someone like IPS who does make quality work would.

[Courtnall6]

Hey everyone BentonGrey chose the meshes skins he liked the most to go into this, whatever it is! why be mad at him its what he likes like I said its just a game. There is alot of skinners, meshers, fx makers, skopers, and modders out here and people are gonna like who they like. Why trip! I like seeing everyones work doesnt mean I have to use everyones work! And I dont believe BentonGrey ment any harm.

I'm not mad and I know he didn't mean any harm. I don't care when a modder creating a full campaign mod uses a majority of someones work...it's their "comic book" and the more uniformed the better(I just switch them to my skins anyway )....but Benton's mod is more of a "base mod". It probably would have been better received if he released the DCUG base mod alone with a variety of work...then release his JLA campaign separately with whichever skins/meshes he wants.

C6--When you post in these discussions, you pretty much command attention. I agree with you that including a plentiful selection of artists' works is a good idea, but I don't feel that it is required. I think there are plenty of users who, like you (and me, apparently) will look through the various content sites and pick and choose their favorites. This is, as you mention, part of the fun of it.

I'm not worried about the percentage of people that do look for more content...just about the percentage that won't.

[Figure Fan]

First of all, and this is directed at IPS: How does including extra content in the mod--directly used or not--screw over creators? Last I checked, I had a brain and free will, which allows me to seek out alternative content besides what's included in the mod download. If I don't like, say, a particular skin or mesh, I'm well aware that there are alternatives by other artists. This is a lousy point. Also, you seem to be toting this argument that all content is of equal quality in the community, and this is simply not true. Without naming names, the sad truth of that matter is that some content is simply just not as good as other content, and that people are naturally going to flock to what they like best, which just so happens to be what a lot of people like best. This decision is entirely subjective, and some people prefer different content, but we all know that certain creators end up getting a bigger slice of the 'download pie'. If I were still an active skinner, I wouldn't expect my work to be getting bundles of attention. If someone likes something I've done, then they are free to pursue, download, and use it in their game. Otherwise, I don't regulate what they 'should and 'should not' look to as alternatives.

it's not a lousy point. your statement is the answer to your own question. like kkohoho you proved my point for me. in fact i agree not all content is of equal quality and because of that selecting c6 (for example) stuff exclusively means lesser known (read into that term as you want) skinners, meshers etc work will never be found when otherwise it may have.

Haha! IPS aka "the statement devourer". And yes, it is a lousy point.

Just because one mod is released doesn't mean the world of custom content for Freedom Force is DEAD. If anything, you're insulting the intelligence and tastes of everyone who downloads it and plays the game. Believe it or not, even new players are capable of searching for content beyond the mod. We were new once, remember? Lesser known creators' work WILL be found, and life WILL go on beyond Benton's DCU mod. I know..scary huh?

Anyway, the creation of this mod and the selection of whatever content that goes into it is ultimately up to Benton, and of course the creators who gave him permission to use their works. Not every act of kindness on these boards has to one of supreme democratic political correctness. Benton didn't do anything wrong. He just decided to share something that he created, respectfully and within reason, with the rest of us. I'm a lessor known creator, and this does not have any sort of negative effect on me. Do you really think that having more obscure content included in the mod will stop people from putting their own preferred content into the game? If so, you're only fooling yourself. Believe it or not, trying to force people to download more obscure content won't necessarily make them like obscure content. I touched on this in my first post. You know, the one that actually didn't feed your argument?

[daglob]

Actually, I had a comment. Looking back at it, it wasn't very useful and could have been harmful, so...

never mind.

[USAgent]

I should of replied a few pages ago, but after seeing Benton give it up, I feel I need to voice my opinions on this matter as well.  I don't want to single anybody out but there is no doubt that IPS is leading the charge against Benton and his mod and most likely any comments we have that are for Benton are most likely gonna be against IPS unfortunatly.   So anyway.....  To bring up a something that has been said before, Benton has had this project going on for years, and has had many threads talking about his project and anybody who followed them knew he was going to have extra characters available for us to play with in the Rumble Room, plus he released a Beta version of it as well along time ago, but nobody had any issues at all with his old threads or the Beta.
I am one who can't see how by having extra characters in the mod is going to hurt the community at all (it might be because I am a player and not a creator) Since this community is so small anymore, we all know where to get skins, who's sites to visit, and what we like, I guarantee by him having extra characters in his mod will not cause anybody to stop coming to FR to check out any new skins/meshes and visiting sites and downloading anything. Like I said maybe I feel this way because I am only a player now a days, i don't know.

If this is viewed as just a mass distribution download, what is the difference from somone like me who emails hundreds and hundres of meshes and skins to community members who are posting in the "request" thread looking for a certain character?  I am not giving the requestor every available version of the requested character, or trying to track down what site the skin/mesh was hosted at (unless its a well known site). 

Lastly Benton has been asked to compromise his mod to suit a couple people, which I don't think he needs to at all for 2 reasons,
1. There has only been 0ne (1) person (IPS) who does not want his material in Benton's mod (even those who agree with IPS's views are allowing Benton to keep their material in his mod).  Benton is going to remove his stuff from his mod, but that doesn't seem to be enough for him.  If everybody else is fine with his releasing the mod the way it stands (being it right or not)that should be the end of it.

2. How about instead of Benton compromising, why don't those against him comprimise?  Obvoiusly no one has really heard of the rule that "you can only release a mod if every single skin/mesh in your Mod's Characters folder has a scripted story involving them".  Surely Benton has not heard of that rule, he would not have broken that rule if it was known.  He has always been a outstanding community member, never out to cause any issues with anybody.  So why can't we just let this mod be what Benton intended it to, and from this day forward let it be known that this kind of mod is no longer accectable.  Because right now it seems like this rule has been made after the fact.  Can we just let this mod be the exception for unknown unwritten rule? Or are we going to keep at it until total satisfaction is met?

[Figure Fan]

FF trying to single me out or draw me isn't going to go anywhere. incase you hadn't noticed, i'm not the only one who feels this way about the issue.

No, you aren't, but I addressed you directly seeing as how you're the one claiming to be "championing the rights of creators". You aren't going to make me dig up direct quotes now, are you? I'm not trying to "draw you in". My comments just required some semblance of a target in order to be effective, and yours were the most pertinent. Not to mention to the most prevalent..

I don't want to single anybody out but there is no doubt that IPS is leading the charge against Benton..

Eeexxactly.

[Gremlin]

The mod has been removed. Any further discussion is unnecessary. If we go on arguing like this, we're just going to hurt everyone. Both parties want what's best for the community, but prolonging this is ultimately causing more damage than if either side had one. We can't afford this divisiveness. While I'd like people to be able to resolve their disagreements here, I highly doubt that's going to happen in this thread right now.

Since he's the OP, only Benton can really authorize this, but I'd like to request that this thread is locked. Perhaps we can discuss the problem at a later time, without the passions and stress. But now, we aren't going to get anywhere.

[Figure Fan]

The mod has been removed. Any further discussion is unnecessary. If we go on arguing like this, we're just going to hurt everyone. Both parties want what's best for the community, but prolonging this is ultimately causing more damage than if either side had one. We can't afford this divisiveness. While I'd like people to be able to resolve their disagreements here, I highly doubt that's going to happen in this thread right now.

Since he's the OP, only Benton can really authorize this, but I'd like to request that this thread is locked. Perhaps we can discuss the problem at a later time, without the passions and stress. But now, we aren't going to get anywhere.

Yeah, you're right, Grem.

[BentonGrey]

USAgent, FF, Grem, thank you for your comments.  I am still open to arbitration, but I will not gut the work of three years to appease one person.  I would be willing to sit down (in a virtual sense) with the content creators whose work is still pertinent to the discussion and talk, but this is getting us nowhere.  If there is no other option to put an end to the bickering, then the mod is dead.

[Vertex]

Okay so you're going to sit down with ALL creators since it's pertinent to all.. not just those you included in mod. Then everyone can agree and come to a intelligent decision that's about whether an agreement way back when was violated or not and then decide what to do about it. That' very mature I salute you.

[BentonGrey]

Vertex, I meant exactly what I said, all creators for whom it is still pertinent.  This is not a subject for discussion, it is not the beginning of another debate, it is a simple statement.

[Vertex]

which is everyone to whom the rule would affect. which is all creators.

[BentonGrey]

Vertex, I said, this was not a topic of discussion.  You can respect that I have said all I intend to say on the matter unless some form of arbitration is arranged, or you can choose to no longer post in my thread.

[Vertex]

in other words if it isn't what you want to hear shut up.. I get ya.

[BentonGrey]

IPS, I have said everything that I have to say to you...no, that's not true, there are several hundred things I'd still very much like to say to you, but I am not so uncouth as to verbalize them.  You can call it a content torrent a thousand times, but it still won't make it true.  Enjoy the slow death of the community.

Vertex, thank you for your lack of understanding.

[bearded]

...it's cancelled?
...but i needed that to support the rumble mod i've adopted from fury and working on for years and years now...