Benton Grey's DCUG Mod, Yes or No?

[AfghanAnt]

You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.

Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.

I don't think this discussion is necessarily relevant to the issue at hand.

Now, I'm a little confused here. I'm seeing two conflicting precedents.

"Wrong," resulting in banning in the past
-Electro's fx pack
-

Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.

Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.

"Okay," resulting in no conflict.
-EZFX
-VPMAX
-

...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.

How do we define the difference? DOes anyone have more information on who has been banned in the past for stuff like this?

Honestly I'm not sure why there were distinctions but they were made. To be fair, the first EZFX was around before the rule and it created by all the people who were involved with it.

I still haven't installed VPMAX and I assumed it was all of Crim's work.

Unfortunately I never dled AvengersSpecial.

Edit: Electro did more than a FX pak. He gathered content together and hosted it on yahoo groups, and while I never personally had a problem (I remember asking him to just link to the other yahoo groups or websites) but the whole decided him put everybody's work together in one area for easy dl was frowned on.

Regardless, this topic is stupid and if the majority of the people want to be able to gather content together and redistribute it, I say why not pitch in and create a new search based resource. It would solve a lot of these problems.

[AfghanAnt]

EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.

There have been threats of banning by mods regarding the use or posting of torrents. That is what I was referring too. As for the rest of your post tl;dr.

[tommyboy]

Partly in response to Benton's message above (for which, thank you, Vertex);
Yes, there have been some bad feelings, and some name calling. But I think it fair to say that both those things are the minority of posters and posts. A lot of other people are willing to rationally and reasonably discuss matters, and even those who have flared up a bit are generally managing to hold their tempers, as long as respect is shown.
To what extent the community is being destroyed by this, I couldn't say. I've seen some post that this arguing is putting them off the site, and off the community, so I suppose the effect must be a negative one. But I'd wager a lot of others simply dont mind or care if some of us argue sometimes, as that is what tends to happen on forums.

How do we go about outlining what rules we want? We try to establish a public consensus, then iron out details with creators individual consents.
I'll use NifSkope as an example. It came along relatively late in the  FF timeline, and there were no existing rules which covered what it did. So we established the basic principle that it was to be allowed (by common consent from public discussion), then Podmark created the Permission thread so that individual meshers could state their specific preferences as to how their work was to be used, or not used, by 'skopers. So first we agreed publicly on general principles, and then individual creators could sign into or out of the deal. Result? that any skoper can know whose meshes are available for use, and that skoping in general is OK with the community, provided that permission has been given. Everyone gets a say about the basic principle but the rights of the individual creators are protected by the opt-out option. We know that model works.
There is no reason why we cannot publicly codify a rational principle about Modding and "extra content" Modding, and have a permissions thread for usage of individual creators work. It may be that 90% of non-creators will vote for "everything to be available, all the time, in every way", but the creators are protected by the right to opt out, as well as by the general goodwill of the community. The fact is, that we do look out for each other here. Even this mess was caused by someone concerned that a rule had been broken.
We blow whistles when we see "wrongdoing".
Likewise, there can be an accord as to the general principle of whether content torrents are allowed or not, along with the right of any given creator to opt out or into them. Those worried about floodgates opening, don't. People have been privately sending each other CDs, or using the Hub or other file sharing for years, and the community survived. And that was when the game was current, and relatively popular.

In the case of Benton's Mod, if there is public feeling that it should be released and Benton decides to, any creators unhappy with that can opt out of the Mod. And those in the Mod should explicitly state that they know the "type" of Mod it is, and that they are OK with that. If the vote goes the other way on it, or Benton declines to release it, we will still have a Permission/Forbidden list if a similar Mod emerges in future.

I'm not 100% sure, but I have an impression that any torrent bannings were perhaps to do with a lack of permission, or credits or both. If both proper permission and credits are present, I don't think personally that torrents are intrinsically evil, any more than Mods or Websites or emails or any other way we distribute content. That may be a community consensus, or the reverse may be true. But without discussions we cannot know either way.

 

[lmalonsof]

It's been a long time since my last post here. I want to tell you a little tale about mods, games and creators, it's a real story:

There's a racing game called rFactor with a huge community that produces great mods. One of the groups of the community made a F1 mod, named FSOne. One day, another group released another F1 mod (f1rt08). This mod has lots of stolen models, kitbashed skins, etc, etc... lots and lots of them from the FSOne mod. All the forums in the community have banned the 'illegal' f1rt mod but... it is widely massively played on the internet. No matter how the FSone creators (spanish by the way) protested, no matter the 'official' ban of the mod... players around the world decided to play the illegal mod.

Benton didn't break any rule. He got all the permissions. He did everything 'by the book'. So please, put the ego aside and feel part of the mod because that's exactly what you are. Benton in particular and this community in general is very well mannered and here will never be anything like the 'illegal' F1 mod thing. However, creators must remember that even though they may have worked a lot and they can decide about their work, once it's released they can't do anything to stop people/users/others to use it as they want to. 'OMG, what's he saying?' you're thinking. I'm sorry but it's true, any of your great and talented work could be kitbashed or missused in any way that you can't control or it even could be modificated and they could say it's their own work, not yours. These things happen everyday: X-Wing Alliance, Bridge Commander, Starfleet Command, GTA saga, rFactor, ... Lots and lots of games with lots and lots of modders that steal something from others creators of other games and the claim that work as theirs. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. BENTON FOLLOWED ALL THE WRITTEN/UNWRITTEN COMMUNITY RULES So creators, please have in mind all the respect and care that everybody has always had here with you. This mod should be released because: i) it broke no rules, ii) there are no rules (for the final player, I don't mean for the community)

Freedom Reborn has principles as a community. This community always understood the importance of the creators: modders, programmers, skinners, meshers,... All of them. However, it is a pity that the same ego that fosters one to skin, mesh or whatever and gives us the chance to enjoy these work will also destroy the community.

It's a pity to see how a thing like this could finally kill the community.

[Blitzgott]

I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.

Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.

And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.

There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.

In a nutshell, this discussion does not make any sense.

[Overthrower]

Voicing my opinion about Benton Grey's Mod:
I voted for yes with precedents.
I was quite happy that the mod was to include hero files for all characters being built-in.
I though that this would be great for EZScript stories as not just Benton, but ANYBODY could write EZ script stories that could be plugged into the mod.  
I thought this would be an innovative way to keep all of the custom content fresh.

Very much agreed. I don't see how packaging everyone's work with proper credit is a bad thing, this should have been done a long time ago with constant updates if anything! I can't ell you how much time I had spent downloading and installing individual content into one mass folder for the game, only to eventually lose it and have to start all over again. And by lose it I mean due to the eventual Viruses or computer upgrading, where even though I may have backed up the content long ago, a few different times, some how some way over the years it gets lost. Obviously this is not a game where it is the only thing I'm playing over and over again, there are plenty of other fun distractions on the computer to take away from it, BUT, this game is one of the few that can be revisited over and over again because the great work put in by the modding community. But if I'm forced to start from scratch all over again it takes away from the experience, believe me. So if BG's mod broke a rule that's unfortunate, but it's even more unfortunate that the rule exists.

Sorry if I'm butting in and my opinion doesn't count, if it does then great!

OT.

[AfghanAnt]

I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.

Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.

And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.

There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.

I hope youre referring to everyone besides me because there is a precedence that was set obviously before you were a member. While there are no written rules, there are a lot of unwritten ones. Such as don't kitbash, don't take mod code and make a few changes and call it your own, and what was most important a few years ago, don't take a bunch of content and shuffle it to the masses.

I'd like to point out a few things I've actually been saying throughout this whole thing:
1) I want Benton to release his mod
2) I don't care if it came with all the content out there allowed if everyone reached agreement that we can all do this in the future
3) I am all for a resource that has everyone's work so this argument could go DIAF

[TaskMasterX]

I believe TaskMasterX has summarized it all.

Basically, there is no precedence to the "torrent rule" that has been brought up by the instigators as the main focus of this discussion, as it is not written down anywhere. I don't see how can you enforce a rule that only you and a small circle of people know of and/or care about.

And, regardless of such rule have ever been documented in the past, it contradicts the instigators own belief that a content-creator should have the final word on how their content should and/or should not be used.

There was never any precedence to the beginning of this discussion. The instigators themselves believe that content-creators should have full control over their content, while at the same time they are trying to bind them to rules that restrict how these same creators distribute or allow the distribution/use of said content.

In a nutshell, this discussion does not make any sense.

Bingo. You actually summarized it better than I did.

EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.

There have been threats of banning by mods regarding the use or posting of torrents. That is what I was referring too. As for the rest of your post tl;dr.

But yet with Bliztgott's post, which is longer then mine, you did take time to read and quote the whole thing. If you can't take the time to read the whole post then don't quote part of it and take it out of context. Actually, don't even reply to my post if you can't read all of it.

[AfghanAnt]

But yet with Bliztgott's post, which is longer then mine, you did take time to read and quote the whole thing. If you can't take the time to read the whole post then don't quote part of it and take it out of context. Actually, don't even reply to my post if you can't read all of it.

I read his post because he personally attacked me which has happened a lot in the last two days because I voiced my opinion which, as I've been told, has no impact on this community. So I'm not going to even bother anymore.

And obviously you didn't read my pm which I thought would put an end to this bickering but I guess not and I don't know why I would have thought trying to be the bigger man would work in this place anyway.

[TaskMasterX]

The other side of the argument keeps stating that torrent-type Mods are anti-competitive, when this argument really should only hold any weight if this was a booming Community for a popular game. Most of us here already know about other skinners, meshers, FXers etc. As a matter of fact, me and I'm sure there are many others that probably already have the meshes, skins, etc. that are included in the DCUG, already downloaded from their original sites and installed in the game. All of us veteran FR members, which last time I looked, make a majority of this community, already know of alternate sources for these characters, and also know that the creators of the content have other work that can be downloaded from their sites on the net.
So, I guess that leaves the noobs who happen to purchase this game on eBay or at an Electronic's Store in the Used Section. How are they going to find other people's meshes, skins, etc. that aren't included in the DCUG? You mean to tell me the noob will find Bent's DCUG first, and through his searches that led him/her to the download page of the DCUG, they never would have encountered other FF-related pages with other content from other creators? It seems to be a pretty weak argument, IMO.

[deano_ue]

i've lost it with whole thing, i've spoken to BG and he knows where i stand on the mod, and i made my feeling clear in the last thread

but i will say this the few that are for a lack of a better term opposed to aspects of the mod are basically being  vilified by what could be described as mob mentality. i have spoke to many people on the new gimme gimme gimme  attitude this board has developed over the past year and it is simply pathetic.

honestly the main reason i stay on FR is simply a small group of mates and the fact there is no where else to go for the game

[tommyboy]

-

...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.

tommyboy's mods are also NOT precedent setting in any way since they are all HIS own work and do not cover something as large in skope as the entire DC universe. and his work won't result in people not having to look for alternatives because it's simply not that good. his work won't result in lower demand for other meshers' work. c6's work is considered the best in the community by the majority and a pack like this means less people requesting dc characters since they'll already have them all by the best there is (in their minds). the problem with torrents has never been permissions it's been it's agreed impact on the community and the other creators. i don't have an opinion on torrents in general but in this case it amounts to an anti-competitive practice that will suffocate any remaining creators over time. admit it or not. that's how it's gone down so far and it will repeat itself again.

i was the one that originally asked for benton to release his mod. i wanted it. but not with the extra content if it is unused. if he created missions which made use of all the characters and the story included the entire dc universe then i would have had no problem. and i said that initially after which you all vilified me. considering my recent interest in dc characters i wanted this mod out more than anyone here probably but after looking at what it really was i became really concerned with the implications it would have for the community.

c6 himself suggested he didn't know the real nature of the mod, none of us did. and he also suggested as an alternative to my suggestions for getting it released, replacing the content with a variety of other people's content so as to avoid my concerns also.

Umm...no, sorry, wrong again.
Please don't post about my Mods because you clearly know nothing of them.
The AvengersSpecial Mod contained meshes and skins from a vast variety of people. Each character had multiple skins, set to randomly appear.
From the "credits.txt" file:

Spoiler

MESHES:
Irrational
   
Beyonder -human torch, male basic wings(,hawkman), Hawkeye, Thor, firestorm, Darkseid, Green Arrow, Hawkgirl, Scorpion, Rhino, Male_basic_gloves_boots(iceman,cyclops), Azrael_Helm(melter,annihilus),Diablo,Steel,wolf
Male_alpha_collar(booster gold),blob!!,

Jude Martin - Thing

Mienk - female cape

ComicBookFan - Beast

X-Dud - Sentinel

Abdul Brown - Juggernaut

JiK   - Hero_with_shield(Cap. America, Usagent),Spiderman
      
Keyframe swap thanks to KennX  - Male_hulking_lean
      
Halfscan   -  Female_Tiny_Alpha(wasp), Female_Insect_Alpha(mantis
)
3dMaster   -  Beast, Iron_Man_Final, Iron_Man

Mike D. Swain

Sean Latham

Bobby69    -   Dr.Fate,Magneto,Unicorn,Flash69,Captain Marvel69,Scarlet Witch69,Quicksilver69,Ray69,Colossus69,Warbird69,Whirlwind69,Yellowjacket69,Wolverine69,Tigershark69,Ironman_v69,Antman69,CyclopsBC69,Hellcat69,  Iceman_crystal69, Iron_Fist69,swordsman69
Vertex    - VxJocasta,VxLivingLaser,VxWizard-Marvel,

Valandar   -   Thanos, Microwave_Armour_Faceplate, Iron_Man_Classic,Dormammu,Galactus
   
interceptor  - Female_bald_cape,Valkyrie

Beardedinlair  -  Classic_batgirl(scarlet witch),Superman,AwBatman,Wonder Woman,Medusa,Vixen,Electro,

AntmanNext   -  Quicksilver*, Yellowjacket, Cyclops,

Renegade   -  Male_Titan(atlas),Male Muscle Tall collection(Captain(Shazam)Marvel),Dr.Spectrum,GL_johnstewart,Guy_Gardner,Hal_gl,Kyle_Rayner,wrecker

Grenadier  - almost too many to count, and almost all the Max files from which my own (inferior)meshes derive;
absorbing_man,Annihilus,Batroc_Gren,bishop,Black_Panther_Gren,firelord,FVE_Sersi_Gren,FVE_Thena_Gren,Galactus's Punisher_Gren,hyperion,Ikaris_Gren,joh,Makarri_Gren,Male_Hulking_Brute,Nighthawk_Gren,Sasquatch_nohair,Sentinel_Blue,Sentinel_Classic,Sub-Mariner,taskmaster,terrax,vision1,Whizzer_SSinister,wrecker,AND the Max files from which most of my "own" meshes derive.

Ink       - Moondragon,Storm,Shadowcat,Madrox,Psylocke,Banshee_green,Bishop,Blackcanary,Magneto,nightwing,Photon,Sentinel_Blue,Sentinel_Classic,sunfire,zantana

TexasJack  - AtomTJ,Plastic_man

Felideo  - CapitainMarvel-DC

Gni  - Gambit,Red skull(hex by tb from the_mask)




----------------------------


MESHES and SKINS:

----------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
Absorbing_man
by Grenadier
skin by Gummo
------------------------------

Airwalker
by Grenadier(?)

skin by?
------------------------------
Angel
by tommyboy
angel by ink4884@aol.com (ink)
Angel Classic Created by Styles email address: stylesstan@aol.com
angel_blue by ink4884@aol.com (ink)
angel_classic_csn by DarkJared(?)
angel3_csn by DarkJared
angelC6 by C6
archC6 by C6
archC62 by C6
archC63 by C6
C63 by C6

-----------------------------------
Annihilus
skin: annihilus
skinmesh: male basic draconus notail
Mesh: Grenadier
----------------------------
mesh: antman tiny
author: kraven
note: this a mesh modification of antmans antman mesh, using the hex editor. the mesh fits the scott lang version of antm

Antman
Skin by: Friction
listenbub@aol.com
MARVEL
Base skin by: Strangefate@ www.Strangefate.com
Mesh: Antman
www.meshforce.com
FTP: http://68.68.170.136:8080
     
~(ANT MAN)~mesh:the_Ant  
Skin created by "INK"

skin: antman
mesh: antman
author: kraven
note: the scott lang version
----------------------------
Animal_man by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy(from Juancho's Mimic_classic skin)

-----------------------------
Atom_tj
by TexasJack
skin by Courtnall6

----------------------------
Attuma
by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy
----------------------------
Aquaman
by BeardedInLair
Skins For Freedom Force
by DarkJared
The skindex - Comic Skin Network
http://www.skindex.net/ff/ffmain.htm
skindex@shaw.ca
----------------------------

AWBatman
this batman made in honor of adam west.  skin by trainwreck.
altered from male cape by irrational for freedom force.
by beardedinlair (knyghtwill@aol.com)  i welcome email.
batman with robin coming soon!

----------------------------
Azrael_Helm Mesh created by The Beyonder 5-18-02
jpj802@hotmail.com
Gryphon male_belt base skin used to help create the Azrael Skin.

Melter skin by tommboy adapted from Azrael skin by Beyonder(?)
----------------------------
Aztek
by tommyboy
skins, by tommyboy,AfghanAnt
-----------------------------
Banshee_Green
by Ink
Skin by AfghanAnt
------------------------------

BeastAlpha2
by tommyboy
-----------------------------
Beast_Classic(classic_beast)
Male_heavy by Irrational Hexxed by tommyboy,keyframes by tommyboy
Skins by C6,Styles,
----------------------------
Beetle
by tommyboy
skin by tommyboy
----------------------------
Bishop
Mesh By Grenadier and Ink
Basic shape was orignally a Male heavy. Modified the height and shape slighty.
Male heavy = 1.09m   Bishop = 1 m  and hands made more proportinate.
Animation -  Base Set by Dimmoro from Female_two_guns_jacket
            Modified and Tweaked by Grenadier    
Skin - by Ink
-----------------------------
Big Barda
(formerly Mesh Female_Versatile_more_goodies,by Captain (or Commander)Carrot,hex edited by tommyboy)
Now by tommyboy
Skin by tommyboy,based on the Jack of hearts skin by  ?          , and the FVMG2 standard.
----------------------------
Black Canary
Mesh Model:  Black Canary
Mesh: Ink (storm)
Animations: female_basic
skinner: Courtnall6
E-mail:ink4884@aol.com
Email: Courtnall6@hotmail.com
Base skin: Court6's base skin
---------------------------------------------
Black Knight(bk)
by Grenadier
Skin by DarkJared
The Skindex - Comic Skin Network
http://www.skindex.net/ff/ffmain.htm
skindex@home.com
BK3 by Courtnall6
bkcsn by Darkjared(?)

----------------------------
Black_panther
black_panther by tommyboy
Standard by Courtnall6
Panther2 by Thunder
Black_pantherNL by NextLegend
C6new by C6
----------------------------
Black_lightning
black_lightning by tommyboy
Standard by tommyboy
---------------------------
Black_widow
by tommyboy
Standard by ?
1 by DarkJared(?)
2 by Courtnall6
Black widow by Interceptor
Gryphon by The Gryphon
-----------------------------
Blob
mesh created by The Beyonder 09-01-02
jpj802@hotmail.com

I am making most of the new generic meshes where you don't have to rename
the .tga files.

Standard skin by Ink
----------------------------
Blue_Eagle
Male_basic_wings by Beyonder
blueeagle by MijMan
------------------------------
Booster Gold
(formerly Male_alpha_collar)
by tommyboy
Skin name: Booster Gold
Created by Styles
email address: donaldgoines@netzero.net
mesh: male_basic_effects
Comic Universe: DC Comics
BGC6 by C6
BgC6new by C6
----------------------------
Cable by Grenadier
Skin by Ink
----------------------------
Etc etc etc

And I had to truncate that to fit under the 2000 character limit here.

Similarly, the LSH MOD was mostly my work for meshes, but as the credits reveal, plenty of skins by other people are included:

Spoiler

Other meshes:

Composite_Superman_REN_FFvT3R by Renegade
dragon by Jik
Eagle by Bamphalas (bamphalas@cfl.rr.com) w/ animations by Aphex
Kryptonite by Renegade
Medusa by Bearded in Lair
Professor X by Ink





-----------------------------------------------------------------
SKINS:

Skins by tommyboy:
Many of the "standard" skins for any "tv" or "thv" mesh, exceptions should have a "readme.txt" in the "standard" folder
Since all the _tv or _thv meshes are new and unreleased, most of the extra maps in them are by me, even when the main skin is by someone else.
All Skysphere skins by tommyboy.


All Other skins by:

GREYCOUNT:
Blok,
Bouncing Boy,
Calorie Queen,
Chameleon Boy,
Colossal boy,
Cosmic Boy,
Cosmic King,
Dawnstar,
Dr. Regulus,
Dream Girl,
Dev Em,
Element Lad,
Emerald Empress,
Ferro Lad,
Fire Lad,
Flare
Invisible Kid2,
Infinite Man,
Karate Kid,
Kent Shakespear,
Kid Quantum2,
Jo Nah,
Laurel Gand,
Lightning Lad,
Lightning Lass,
Lightning Lord,
Magno Lad,
Mano,
Mist Master,
Mon El,
Nemesis Kid,
Neutrax,
Night Girl,
Ol Vir,
Persuader,
Phantom Girl,
Phantom Girl2,
Polar Boy,
Radiation Roy,
Saturn Girl,
Saturn Queen,
Shadow Lass3,
Shrinking Violet,
SOD Kalibak,
SOD Orion,
SOD Superman,
Sun Boy,
Sun Emperor,
Star Boy,
Star boy2,
Superboy,
Tharok,
Timberwolf,
Tyr,
Tyroc,
Ultra Boy,
Universo,
Validus,
Westerner,
Wildfire,
Wildfire_reboot,



WYLDFYRE:
Brainiac 5
Chameleon boy
Chemical King
Colossal boy
Cosmic Boy
Dream Girl
Element Lad
Ferro Lad Iron
Ferro Lad
Invisible Kid
Karate Kid
Light Lass
Lightning Lad
Lightning Lass
Matter Eater Lad
Mon El
Phantom Girl
Ultra Boy
Lightning Boy
Saturn Girl
Shadow lass1
Star boy
Timberwolf1


EL INSENSATEZ:
Bouncing Boy
Universo
White Witch
Bouncing Boy
Chameleon Boy
Wildfire
Chameleon Boy
Element Lad
Phantom Girl
Karate Kid
Lightning lass
Molecule Master
Mordru
Night Girl
Phantom Girl
Polar Boy
Princess Projectra2
Starboy
Supergirl
Time Trapper
Ultra Boy
Colossal Boy2


C6:
Blok
Karate kid2
Mon El
Superboy



THUNDER:
Wildfire,
Timberwolf,
Triad,
Saturn Girl,
Mon el,
Karate Kid,
Violet,
Cosmic Boy,
Chameleon,
Cosmic boy,



FIRESTORM:
Duo Damsel,
Element Lad2
Brainiac5
Invisible kid2


JKCARRIER:
Calorie Queen
Charma
Esper Lass
Grimbor
Spider girl


FORCER:
tyroc
ultraboy
wildfire
timberwolf
starboy
blok
cosmic boy
dreamgirl
lightning lad
dawnstar
mon el


TIMBER WOLF:
Dawnstar


JUSTIN:
Duo Damsel
Matter Eater Lad


MRS.ARATAK:
Lightning Lad1
Mano
Triplicate girl


INTERCEPTOR:
Triad


ACE FRANKLY:
Brainiac 5,
Wildfire,
Chemical King,
Dream Girl,
Lightning Lad2
Princess Projectra2
Saturn Girl2
Shadow lass2
Sun boy
Timberwolf2


TOXICJ:
Wildfire,
Timberwolf,
Sun Boy,
Star Boy,
Ferro lad,
Element Lad,
Cosmic Boy



AFGHAN ANT:
Kalibak
Supergirl


BFSKINNER:
Cosmic boy (new, cosmic boy pink)



LIGHTNING MAN:
Ferro lad
Mano


DMENACER:
Lightning Lad2


DARKJARED:
Supergirl


FUSION:
Saturn Girl
Lightning Lad2
Ferro Lad
Sunboy
Ultraboy
Timberwolf
Phantom Girl2
Light_lass
Wildfire
Element Lad2
Duo Damsel
Cosmic boy2

So tell us again they are not established precedents for Benton's Mod.
Because it's very plain that A) they are exactly that, and B) their existence has caused no problems whatsoever.
Face it.
Your arguments do not hold water. None of them.
Your facts are wrong.
You are wrong.
You may have meant well, but look at the harm you have caused and tell me truthfully, would Benton's Mod have done as much harm as your arguments against it have done? Have MY mods done the community as much damage as you have in the last few days?


Oh, and thanks for the public insult about the quality of my work being "not that good".
Shows what a classy guy you really are.

[Kenn]

Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.

....

[tommyboy]

avengers special is not as sweeping in skope and lacks polish
lsh is featuring your meshes which is a deterrent for most quite frankly regardless of the skins included. and it is not that sweeping in scope.

no your mods are not precendent setting. you didn't collect the best of the best and try to create something that would elminate a need for people to get anything else.

again with the insults?
Wow, must be getting pretty desperate, looking at those votes, realizing that you really don't speak for anyone, not even your "friends" here.
I know! Insult me again. You'll feel a bit better, and look so clever and reasonable, too.
Deny the factual precedent I've established by some convoluted guess as to what Benton or I was "trying" to do, or how much my meshes "deter" people.
If you are really lucky, you can goad someone into a personal attack on you and you can play the victim card you have been using since you started this. But it wont be me.
But don't let that stop you from the same sort of snide comments you've made about my work for years now, if that makes this all a little less bleak for you.
Honestly, now I just pity you.

[tommyboy]

i'm not insulting you tommy. i'm being honest. i'm being frank. lose the ego. you aren't the c6 of the meshing world.

you spent 2 pages taking shots at me and you think i'm going to be complimentary? i'm not even insulting you, i'm not taking shots at you, i'm telling you how the majority perceives your work when compared against your claims. you have fans no doubt. we all do. we can't all be superstars like c6 but that doesn't mean that you can claim your work is strong enough to create a monopoly the way his can and set any sort of precedent.

i'm not desperate at all. the community can vote all it wants.

BG himself acknowledged that the community doesn't have a say in how the creators work gets used. we have to decide that amongst ourselves.

in fact your whole thread here goes against BGs wishes which vertex relayed. instead of taking time off to respect both side of the arguement's wishes you created this thread. you have an axe to grind. keep grinding for the next 30 days until no one is left to listen.

Lol, that's the ticket, imply that I'm egotistical and oversensitive, as well as talentless!

"i'm telling you how the majority perceives your work when compared against your claims"

Umm...what claims?  I haven't "claimed" anything about my work, just pointed out you trying to insult me, yet again.

What else you got? because frankly, I'm loving this.
The stench of desperation clinging to every word you write.

Although I sort of feel bad for you, too. I mean, you can't even get ME irritated anymore. ME.

[TaskMasterX]

With the amount of talk about how popular C6's skins are and how no one will want to download any one else's by IPS and his supporters, any noob that happens upon these forums, will realize pretty fast which skins are the most popular. With such statements they've already done more damage than tommyBoy and Benton's Mods combined.
And to think that noobs would only find Benton's Mod and no other custom content before they come across Benton's Mod when searching the Net for FF stuf. Sheesh! Apply reality to your arguments, people.

[Podmark]

I may as well give my opinions since I expect this place will be long dead soon  

On the mass content thing I don't really have a problem with it. I missed it when the rule was established so I'm not really sure what the main issues were. Actually I think having a mass resource of older content particularly would be a good idea.

That said permissions would be an absolute must, but that's the usual around here. Might even be best to set guidelines on how we allow such packages to be setup. For example they must include a variety of skinners rather than one say just C6.

-----

Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.

-----
I can only speak for myself on the monopoly thing IPS speaks of. It's of no consequence to me. I have 100s of characters I'm willing to skin if I had the time, and that's just mainstream stuff. If I ever finished those I work on my original ideas. But this is just me, it's quite likely others will feel differently.

-----

If the mod and titans are anti-torrent for whatever reasons, and aren't planning to change that view, all this talk of mass content packages is moot. They own this place, they get last call on what is posted here.

-----

Lastly, if there had been a sticky somewhere of rules (or perhaps a better term would be expectations) Benton would have seen it and this whole thing might have been averted (although probably not because the mod is in the gray area of that rule). So whatever we decide needs to be written down.

I've maintained the nikskope list very closely because I wanted to avoid any and all problems with nikskope. If someone was planning a skope of Fusion's stuff I wanted to be able to very nicely tell them that wasn't allowed and direct them to the nifskope permissions thread.

I'm willing to maintain all such lists in the future if need be.

[tommyboy]

you're making claims that your work is precedent setting etc. is there something here that i missed when you posted your mods as some sort of reason why bg's mod is justified? i didn't say you were talentless i said your work wasn't good enough to substantiate your claims. specifically i said "not that good." in fact you've made many discoveries the community has benefited from etc. but this isn't about you is it?

again, you spent 2 pages taking shots at me, i don't need pity from the masses over it, but it's pretty hard to be surprised if i'm not specifically nice regarding you.

maybe you're reading into this what you would like to see. you're ranting and raving btw. at least that's how your posts read.

Excellent!
The old "ranting and raving" tactic, one of your favourites. I mean, I've GOTTA bite on that one, right?
Sorry no.
The "claims" I made about my Mods had nothing to do with quality, that is a seperate issue brought up by you. I said that my Mods set a precedent by containing "extra content" (which is factually correct, they do), lots of characters/meshes/skins (also factually correct), thereby proving no "rule" has ever been enforced as to Mod content. And that no harm comes of mods which have those things in. All true.
Your frankly pathetic attempts to goad me by switching this to a discussion of my talent, or ego or axe grinding just aren't working.
Maybe you aren't well. Do you have a temperature?

Let's review our little exchange.
You made a claim that was either a blatant lie, or was wildly incorrect. I picked you up on it. Rather than having the good grace and simple common decency to apologize, you continue to try and bait me, which only serves to amuse me.
Remember?
You falsely stated, as bold as brass, that :

tommyboy's mods are also NOT precedent setting in any way since they are all HIS own work..

I rather gently pointed out to you that this was not in fact true, and provided ample proof thereof.

So you changed to:

avengers special is not as sweeping in skope and lacks polish
lsh is featuring your meshes which is a deterrent for most quite frankly regardless of the skins included. and it is not that sweeping in scope.
no your mods are not precendent setting. you didn't collect the best of the best and try to create something that would elminate a need for people to get anything else.

though how you would know what I was "trying" to do is beyond me, since you didn't even know what was in the Mods. Oh, you may want to use a spellcheck if you are going to try to use words like "precedent" or "eliminate". Or stick with the little ones.

Next up was the claim of ego on my part, followed by my favourite so far, "ranting and raving".

Have I left any of it out?

Very much looking forward to your next bout of self-humiliation,
Tom

[murs47]

The thread below this one could use some thought out opinions as well.

[President Raygun]

You know as a newer member and player I resent this whole "gimme gimme gimme" thing I don't see it. Plus it makes me and I'm sure others feels as if were ungrateful. I think most of us who don't contribute content due to a lack of time, tools, or sadly talent, are pretty much in awe of those who do or can, but we are also at your mercy, i mean i can request a Snapper Carr skin til my face turns blue that doesn't mean someone will actually do it. We need you guys, plain and simple. You guys really run the show around here. you're the guys who anybody who's still interested in even playing this game turn to .It's sad that something that should have been handled privately or through mods has degenarated into this. Personally i basically dload everything i see, whether i use it or not; everything I ever got off the old websites I lost in a crash, that was like 6 yrs ago, I finally got back to this game last year and am very grateful that this forum  (and the yahoo groups) exist. I downloaded the dcug and it's just sitting there, right now I'm too obsessed with sifting thru yahoo grps to play it. In other words I'm a collector, and i bet i'm not the only one here. I thinks it's fair to say that most of us are comic fans ( maybe even disillusioned fans ) and that is the reason we stick around, that's also what brings us together, we shouldn't let a misunderstanding( and that's really what is) tear us apart. Finally, and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but a lot of this just seems like ego, and i think with a community this small that can only hurt, not help. If this continues i feel i will be forced to make deal with devil and forget all this craziness (and my wife)

[vamp]

I don't even know where to begin...I have tried to stay quiet, to just watch this whole mess unravel and hope that this crap will fix itself. But it has become apparent to me that this will never happen. Why?  Because you people won't listen to each other. So I am going to state my opinion on the matter. Like it or not it is my opinion and is not right or wrong, just different.

The "main" issue is about mass downloads, or torrents or whatever right? It seems to me, that ips has a point in the matter that mass downloads may deter some newer members from downloading other content. But it so what? If they enjoy your skin better than mine, then they should by all means use it. This isn't a competition, its about making others happy, and mainly yourself. If we can't see that, then maybe we should sit back and question our own motives before attacking others.

Now the other issue I see, is creators rights. I believe that the creator has the right to have full control of where and how their content is distributed and think that tommyboy's thread is a perfect place to start.

I understand a few of you are hurt that your "fans" have basically told you your opinion doesn't count and you should shut up and get to creating content. I understand the pain and frustration you are going through, but that does not give you the right to insult each other for any reason. We are adults here, I don't think the mods or anyone else should be having to referee your stupid, insignificant fights. I think all those involved should shake hands like gentlemen, agree to disagree and walk away from the situation. I understand there is a need for rules, but those rules should be decided on by the individual content creator and not some sort of faux-Illuminati or the boards as a whole. So stop acting like a bunch of idiotic teenagers, and grow up.

If you have any problem with my post, I am sorry you feel that way. If I offended you, I am sorry, but I assure you this was not aimed at any specific person. If you want to take this personally, then do so, but please tell me through pm as opposed to fighting it out here like you have already done. I respect all of your opinions, and would like the same from you. Thank you

[tommyboy]

...But did you vote?

[vamp]

No, I didn't find the point. Its really just up to Benton, not us.

[Podmark]

it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.

I still don't see how Benton's mod or a content pack will actually affect that.

*also completely irrelevant to this conversation "ZWA!"*

[TaskMasterX]

Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.

Well, why don't we find out who is actually concerned about a monopoly. Which content creator is actually concerned about their content (meshes, skins, FX, etc.) not being in the DCUG? Which content creators think that the DCUG will actually inhibit players from downloading their creations, and are actually worried about it? Speak up. Your opinion counts.

[President Raygun]

IPS I'd leave my wife for your Black Canary

[vamp]

vamp i pretty much don't have a problem with what you've said except that i don't feel it extends far enough in scope basically. this isn't about competition and individual rivalry at all... it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.

I understand your view point. I am sure that it might make some people less likely to try or continue skinning if they think they aren't good enough. But look at it this way, I am a c list skinner, and you are a A list skinner, if the two of us make the same skin, and get into the mod, it doesn't because in the end its going to be the downloader who decides which he likes better. If we are to ensure a variety of content providers are to exist in the future we have to nurture them from when they start, by actually paying attention to their skins from the get go. You could critique, tell him what he is doing good, help with the stuff that need work. Sure he is no C6, but heck C6 wasn't C6 when he started

I guess what I am getting at is that we as a community are to ensure we exist in the years to come, it is our job to help the newcomers from day one.

it's about ensuring that there is a variety of creators creating content sharing a variety of work in a year or 2 from now.

I still don't see how Benton's mod or a content pack will actually affect that.

*also completely irrelevant to this conversation "ZWA!"*

I'd have to disagree pod,I think that is what the whole mass download thing is about.

Honestly I haven't played a mod in forever so I'm not invested in anyway with Benton's mod. I think the sheer size makes it unwieldy and kinda scares me, but otherwise I think it's good. Now I seen IPS on the subject but I don't recall anyone else other than C6 speaking on the subject of a monopoly (I have only skimmed many posts). I certainly agree with them that a variety of skinners work would be good, but unless there's more skinners concerned about the Monopoly I am withholding an opinion on it.

Well, why don't we find out who is actually concerned about a monopoly. Which content creator is actually concerned about their content (meshes, skins, FX, etc.) not being in the DCUG? Which content creators think that the DCUG will actually inhibit players from downloading their creations, and are actually worried about it? Speak up. Your opinion counts.

I think that is a lovely idea, but I think it may be wise to start in a new thread. One with a little less, um, bloodshed?

IPS I'd leave my wife for your Black Canary

[Podmark]

I'd have to disagree pod,I think that is what the whole mass download thing is about.

It's not really something you can disagree as my comment is really more of a question than an opinion.

[tommyboy]

No, I didn't find the point. Its really just up to Benton, not us.

well, yes and no.
Benton himself posted this in the thread that spawned all this discourse:
"That's it.  This is over.  I'm officially asking the Admins to take some sort of action here.  I think voting on it as a community, or a ruling by the admins to solve this would be acceptable."
Since the admins seemed otherwise engaged, or perhaps thought it outside their jurisdiction, I started a poll.
Benton may have changed his mind about a poll since.
And Benton of course gets final say on whether it's released or not.
So yes, it's his call, about his mod. But this poll/discussion on his Mod leads to a discussion about Mod Rules, and that is the business of everyone here.
Maybe you are right, and the poll is pointless. If nobody participates in it, it definitely is pointless, so that is sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy you have going on there.
To those tired of all the arguing, to those who want it all to stop, a demonstration of the will of the community will settle some disputes. I'm sure that there may be others it won't settle, but you have to ask whether you are part of the problem or the solution by not bothering to make your wishes known (other than your wish for us to shut up, of course).

ugh. tommy it's just not about you. not even a little bit.

Now that, I have to agree with. All of this is about you. You've started it, you perpetuate it, you won't leave it alone. You, you, you.

your mods set no precedence over the issues we're concerned with.

Well, again, and with all due respect, that's something only you have said. Other people agree with me.
In fact, if one were to look at the votes, the community seems to feel that it's you who are wrong, by quite a margin, so far.
Of course that's not binding in any way, so you keep posting and I'll always be here for you.

please get over yourself. incidentally, i really hope i spelled something wrong.

I have, and don't worry, you did, Oscar, you did.

[vamp]

  My bad, Pod. I guess I should have asked how you meant it first. I read it as in you saying what IPS said was irrelevant. Whether that is what you meant or not i don't know. Either way, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And as for IPS and Tommyboy, I understand their are hurt feeling between the two of you, but please settle that through pm. This is far more important than any one of us.