Benton Grey's DCUG Mod, Yes or No?

[Podmark]

My bad, Pod. I guess I should have asked how you meant it first. I read it as in you saying what IPS said was irrelevant. Whether that is what you meant or not i don't know. Either way, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Nah it's cool, it wasn't a really clear post. And it is part opinion because I don't see it, the monopoly thing.

*Also irrelevant I love Scrubs*

[Kommando]

Other:  The people who run Freedom Reborn should evaluate why they are paying good money to run a set of forums dedicated to a game most of them don't even play anymore when one mod causes a crapload of drama over ownership of content, none of which is the creator's Intellectual Property to begin with.  So yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum.  No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama.  Problem solved.

this is very easily taken care of.

Really hard to convey sarcasm in a forum.  Of course I wasn't serious about dumping FF in favor of COX, but in the last few days seeing the mood of the posts is not a pretty picture.  FR has bar none been the reason FF has lasted this long.  Every snipe I see is another nail in FFs coffin to me, and I have to wonder if anyone even realizes this.  I have an interesting perspective as kind of an outsider to Freedom Force.  I know that sounds odd, but when my laptop died a couple of years back I lost everything I ever did for the game:  skins (including all my bases), hexes (as redundant as they are now), maps, voice packs, hexed keyframes, music, even mods I was working on (I was partway through an AVP mod when my lappy died, not to mention the Dreadstar work I had done with Rain) and the only stuff I have left is a paltry few hexes I have on FX Force.  That's actually why I stopped doing FF stuff.  So yeah, as someone who comes here to check and see how friends are doing its kind of sad when things get ugly.  

Personally, if I were to create content again (which would require finding disks which are in a storage space somewhere), I would make sure that readme file stipulated how I wanted my content to be distributed, and including the readme in the distribution would be one of the conditions.  Thus, if creations were distributed without said readme, that would be the first indication that my wishes were not being respected.  Of course I would really only care for stuff that was my own creation, thus my own IP.  I've said in the past if someone wants to use something of mine, go ahead.  Its not my Intellectual Property anyways, so I don't expect more than a mention.  Heck if that had happened more, than maybe more of my work would still exist.  However, if I happened to care more how my stuff was distributed, and someone did not respect that, the most I would likely do is go on record stating that I dissociate myself with any work done by so and so, and leave it for the community to work out themselves.

Then again, I am surprised when people even read my comments, even more so if they care.

[tommyboy]

And as for IPS and Tommyboy, I understand their are hurt feeling between the two of you, but please settle that through pm. This is far more important than any one of us.

Sorry, no, I don't think I should do that.
I will continue to reply to IPS. I have not insulted him, called him names or done anything wrong. I have been quite patient about his repeated personal comments, slurs and innuendo about me, but have no intention of allowing him the luxury of continuing to do that via PM, which is all that would happen.
So no.
If he posts at me here, I'll reply. It's my thread, such is my right.
I am not following him to other threads, I am replying directly to his posts here on their content, which has been me, my mods, my lack of talent, my ego, my ranting, etc etc.

If a Moderator or Admin commands me to stop replying to personal comments about me (made by someone who has followed me in here to do that), I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Otherwise, I would prefer to discuss the topic, but will reply to any post directed at me, whomever it's from. That's only polite.
Sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intention.

[Blitzgott]

I hope youre referring to everyone besides me because there is a precedence that was set obviously before you were a member. While there are no written rules, there are a lot of unwritten ones. Such as don't kitbash, don't take mod code and make a few changes and call it your own, and what was most important a few years ago, don't take a bunch of content and shuffle it to the masses.

If it's important, write it down. That's common sense. Is this community above common sense, perhaps? That was a semi-retorical question, because, from some of the posts I've read, it seems it is.

Do you even know what your "unwritten rules" are? Discussion bait. Basically, because you people insist on keeping those rules a secret, you're risking some well-intentioned, yet ignorant of the community's inner-workings sod joining the community, doing something against your secret rules, and then getting flamed out of the community because of it. But I'm sure that's fine with you.

As for you PM, I could only laugh. It is interesting to know how you envision yourself in this discussion, and how hypocritical a view it is.

wow. what a joke. firstly, blitzzgott is clueless and has no grasp over what's been said at all. if you can't describe the opposing arguement back when trying to describe it, you didn't understand it correctly. like when your waiter repeats your order to you. it's confirmation that they understood what you're requesting. why are you bothering with this conversation?

Do you mind pointing out which post of mine you were referring to? Making an ambiguous comment about something that you're not being clear what it is and then claiming you've won is not exactly fair. Either way, I'll just assume you're responding to my second post in this thread (my response to AfghanAnt). If that's the case, then the joke is on you, because it seems you don't even know what YOU are talking about. What I've said is just that, and you can refer to your own posts over at the DCUG thread if you don't believe me. What you're trying to do is speak for a community that has a voice of its own. I'm quite sure nobody would ever have brought up any arguments against BentonGrey's mod until you did it yourself. How? By deciding, in the name of the creators of the content that was part of the DCUG mod, that their content should not be distributed as such. That's what I've said there. If you refuse to understand that, too bad. But don't worry - you won't be letting anyone down by ignoring facts or "understanding" them in the way best fit for your snobbish responses. That's all you've been doing ever since this struggle began.

if we were a creator community? that would be great. tons of those exist and thrive. but you know what would happen without creators? you would have moved on 6 years ago. like it or not, without creators as the backbone of this moddable game you would have no activity in this community and people wouldn't still gather here to form a community.

Don't speak for me, because first: I wasn't around six years back, and second: I'd still play the game regardless of user-content. As a matter of fact, DCUG aside, the only meshes I have in my PC are the ones I am using for hero files, which do not even amount to fifty, and I have even less when it comes to maps, FX and what have you. Anyway, as I've said before, "backbone" or not, creators are just users, and are not entitled to more rights than the average user. That's not how I think it should be; that's how it is. The existance of the community wasn't even an issue. I just made that point because AfghanAnt suddenly felt like he should have an active voice in everything, regardless if his comments are harmful or not to the community, simply because he has contributed.

conversely, as vet members there is NO need for a content pack like this, since we've all collected it over the years already.

this pack is for the noob. it's there to make it easier to just come in here and request a single all in one solution eliminating the need to request more. so by intention it is doing what i'm concerned it will do, and you say it won't do. if it wasn't going to actually do what i say it will do, why would he create it and why would anyone want it?

And so, because you already own everything, the rest of the community can go screw itself? Let the noobs scratch themselves if they want any content? What you're saying does not make any sense. Please list any communities out there that value making the lives of their users HARDER instead of EASIER.

it's a catch 22. it will do what he wants it to do, and at the same time kill off the remaining creators slowly. do you know how many skinners say... oh so and so already did that character really well, there is no need for me to do that character again. bam. no more content creation. that's how it works.

"Minor skinners filled with hubris", as you have referred to them yourself in the DCUG thread, such as laughting paradox and FigureFan have already given their input on that matter. They don't feel threatened by the work of others. If they skin, they do it because they want to. Besides, all of the skins released on this site, and in any other active website, for that matter, have screenshots showing what they look like. Therefore, the problem you've mentioned would exist regardless of DCUG mod. The only difference is that the users would have to download the same skins Benton used in his mod individually.

Oh, man... So many new posts. I'll just summarize my thoughts, then.

Basically, like I've said before, there is no point to this discussion. People have disagreed with you over and over again. First of all, your points are moot. Everything you say is based on something you believe the community itself believes, which has already been proven not to be true. Your worries? Baseless. The community won't die because of this project, but it certainly will if we follow your policy, since you actually believe that it's all right to make the lives of the community members harder instead of easier, and because apparently you think that spamming the Requests board or browsing countless Yahoo Groups in hopes of finding a certain mesh is a big turn on to the community.

Why don't you look at the poll results, if the other members' posts are not enough to convince you? People do not agree with you. Let go of your pride and finish this asinine discussion you've started yourself, therefore saving the community of a lot of head(and heart, I suppose)ache.

[jeremy355]

I have one problem with this whole rights argument about whose skins are used and whose aren't, and if someone could explain it to me that would be cool. It's Benton's mod isn't it? He made it. Shouldn't he get to say whose skins he uses. He is spending his time and effort to put this together, why should he have to use skins that he doesn't like? I understand the whole "it's set up for new player's", but they are going to have to come to these boards at sometime. My first post at the old crave boards was because I downloaded Alex's JLA mod. A friend got me to buy the game, and download his mod, and when something didn't work right with the mod I went to the boards and posted. That's how I found out about other people's skins, meshs, etc. And after I discovered all the content, someone on the board was nice enough to tell me how to change meshs, skins, etc, in the game, in mods, and everything else. I don't think the board has changed that much, and I still see older members help out all the time. So I think if it was released people would still have to come to the boards, and then they would discover other peoples stuff. Also didn't Kssaints do a whole lotta skins for this mod? I didn't get to download it, but I'm pretty sure C6 hasn't skinned every DC character.

[vamp]

I have one problem with this whole rights argument about whose skins are used and whose aren't, and if someone could explain it to me that would be cool. It's Benton's mod isn't it? He made it. Shouldn't he get to say whose skins he uses. He is spending his time and effort to put this together, why should he have to use skins that he doesn't like? I understand the whole "it's set up for new player's", but they are going to have to come to these boards at sometime. My first post at the old crave boards was because I downloaded Alex's JLA mod. A friend got me to buy the game, and download his mod, and when something didn't work right with the mod I went to the boards and posted. That's how I found out about other people's skins, meshs, etc. And after I discovered all the content, someone on the board was nice enough to tell me how to change meshs, skins, etc, in the game, in mods, and everything else. I don't think the board has changed that much, and I still see older members help out all the time. So I think if it was released people would still have to come to the boards, and then they would discover other peoples stuff. Also didn't Kssaints do a whole lotta skins for this mod? I didn't get to download it, but I'm pretty sure C6 hasn't skinned every DC character.

Well, its a little more detailed than that. Had he used only the amount of skins/meshes that were going to be in the story, I'm guessing it would have been fine. But he had a some extra content which was not used, so to some it appeared more like a mass downloader. Thats about all the facts for now. What you get from it, and decide is all up to you.

[tommyboy]

grind grind grind that axe bud.

Lol, weak. But keep posting to me, and I will reply. Every. Single. Time.
Is that axe grinding on my part, or simply replying to you? I think the latter.

it's not all about me. i'm not the one creating threads on any of the issues. 30 days. you just couldn't leave it alone no matter BGs actual wishes. isn't this your poll? getting enough attention? you're the one carrying the torch grinding that axe.

Well, allow me to answer this by referring you to my quote of Benton on holding a poll, in which he says he wants one (just after one of your many, many posts in his thread, actually) and also to this post of yours earlier today:

if you want to discuss bentons mod let's do it now. i personally don't want to wait 30 days for an argument if it's really just a ploy to discuss benton's mod again.

I took you at your word that you wanted to discuss Benton's Mod today. I'm sorry, my mistake.
Whilst I may be grinding an axe here, I think everyone in this community who has followed this can see who owns the axe. It has your initials monogrammed on it. I promise I'll give you the axe back so you can continue to protect us from ourselves.

your poll which includes non-creators is 32-1 in favour of releasing the mod. guess what i voted? the bold option. i'm the one little guy that voted "Add Missions to the Mod which use the extra content and we are good"

*sarcastic mode* I wonder who could possibly have put in that option which you so bravely voted for? Was it you? No, because you don't want a poll. You just made that clear, with your hilarious "axe grinding" comment, above. *sarcasm off*
I'm glad someone voted for it though, because I felt it a reasonable compromise attempt. So all sarcasm aside, thank you for that, at least. I appreciate that someone else thought it a viable alternative.

But you do know I will have to keep replying to you if you address further posts here to me, don't you?
I'm a stickler for good manners.

[AfghanAnt]

Blitzgott, I don't have any beef with you so if you want to continue to "bait" me in public, go ahead. You are of no concern to me or my life so I've decided I'm not going to waste time fighting with you or anyone else on this forum. It's pointless and dangerous to my presence in this community.

[Blitzgott]

i still haven't figured out why you've involved yourself. it's like we're speaking an alien language. at least when tommy insults me or makes his arguements they are coherent and pertinent.

I find it hilarious that you can take yourself seriously when you post stuff like this.

To enlighten you: I'm part of this discussion because I'm part of the community. There is no sign anywhere saying that only the instigator may choose who takes part in it.

Anyway, I have nothing to say to someone who has nothing to say. Have fun trying to destroy the community.

[M25]

I know this is the Internet, but a flame war isn't going to solve this issue, and it will drive people away.  Everyone please reconsider your next post.  

[tommyboy]

i still haven't figured out why you've involved yourself. it's like we're speaking an alien language. at least when tommy insults me or makes his arguements they are coherent and pertinent.

I find it hilarious that you can take yourself seriously when you post stuff like this.

To enlighten you: I'm part of this discussion because I'm part of the community. There is no sign anywhere saying that only the instigator may choose who takes part in it.

Anyway, I have nothing to say to someone who has nothing to say. Have fun trying to destroy the community.

Although we may be destroying the community, I doubt it's what any of us want.
But we seem to have so few options other than further (possibly pointless) discussion. I hope the polls may provide an insight to what the community wants, at least. Knowing that may provide a route forward.
For my part, your views and opinions are very much welcome here, everyone's are.
I realise my own culpability in continuing to engage and debate, after others have suggested leaving it for a while (sorry again, cat), or doing it via PM (sorry again Vamp), or just not doing it at all (sorry again everyone else who has asked for that).
All I strive for and ask of others in this debate is honesty, consistency, civility and to think "what's for the best here?". The last is the trickiest because there are different viewpoints as to the answer. And I aknowlege that my answer could be wrong.
I'm tired, and doubting my actions and motivation. I wish I could be certain I'm all right, all the time, but have been too wrong, much too often.

[BentonGrey]

I was really hoping to avoid doing this, but the level of venom in this and other threads, as well as some...I think exaggerations is the best word, have convinced me to cut short my vacation and make another appeal for civility.  I can only assume that many of you people just don't read the posts on these boards.  Ha, many people seemed to think I packed up and left forever because of what happened in my thread.  I wrote that I was going to leave the boards for a week or two, relax, and get away from all the stress, but that I would be back.  Well, I am back, for the moment, but only to try and help the situation here.  Apparently the statement I asked Vertex to relay had no effect at all.  Please, I am asking one last time, as the author of the mod at question here, stop the personal attacks.  They aren't doing any good.  This poll is a good idea, although I would have preferred that the matter be handled differently, as I suggested.  None the less, we have what we have...including the opinions of many of our content creators, as well as the community at large.  I appreciate the support, but the larger issues do need to be solved.  I hope that AA's thread will help do so.  To that end, I think that I should clear up a few things that have been said about my project. 

IPS has stated that my mod is predominantly C6 skins, and this is not strictly accurate.  Out of somewhere around 330 characters, 85 are skinned by C6.  That may seem like a rather large proportion, but it isn't quite as big as it seems.  You see, C6 is a PROLIFIC skinner, and of those 86, 55 are of characters that only he has skinned, or rather, that his are the only skins available for.  Alex's Freedom Fortress is a pretty powerful tool for filling out the DC rank and file.  You can go right there and download tons and tons of C6 skins, most of the ones that are in my mod.  The rest can be found at Ren's site, because most of them are the standard skins for his meshes.  So, instead of two locations, my mod makes those skins available in one location.  It isn't that big of a change, especially when you consider the fact that 245 skins in my mod are by OTHER skiners.  In fact, Kissaints outnumbers the C6 skins that I had any choice in by a decent margin.  He has 45 skins in my mod.  That is 45 skins that might not see that big of a circulation otherwise, given that he is a "lesser known" skinner.  AA, TUE, Rev, Tommyboy, Unkoman, they each have over  or around 20 skins in the mod.  In fact, my little project includes the work of over 30 skinners, most of them "lesser knowns."  While I think this illustrates a point about my work rather nicely, I don't post it to accomplish such.  I really am just trying to clarify what I imagine many people don't understand.  I myself wasn't clear about the exact layout (although I had my suspicions) until I actually made the count. 

On another matter, an excellent suggestion has been made by Tommy, and it is one I myself mentioned in my previous thread.  When I mentioned it before, it was with the caveat that I did not think it would solve the problem, because I did not think it would be allowed to solve the problem.  Still, it was certainly worth the effort.  Perhaps I should have made it more stringently then, but I foolishly thought I could put a stop to this nonsense by removing my mod.  Tommy has suggested a massive brawl mission "using" all of the characters.  I would be willing to work on this with him.  Furthermore, I'd be willing to delay a release until I finished my next two campaigns, which would include several of the characters that are not currently used in missions.  Specifically, the JSA, the CSA, several other villains, Aqualad, and several Aquaman villains, and supporting characters.

[BentonGrey]

sounds like my and c6's original suggestion personally, not tommy's - although he specifically mentioned how to use it all. but whatever, use the extra content and end this.

Happily.  May we all quickly get over the ill-will that this debate has caused.

[tommyboy]

sounds like my and c6's original suggestion personally, not tommy's - although he specifically mentioned how to use it all. but whatever, use the extra content and end this.

Happily.  May we all quickly get over the ill-will that this debate has caused.

Yes, it's true.
IPS did try to suggest compromises early on before we all attended the international festival of dumb.
And the idea I put into the poll was, I believe originally mooted by IPS, or Benton, or both at different times.

So we finally have a way out with regard to Benton's Mod, and maybe some new ideas for codifying our rules, and what those rules are.

I'd like to repeat my apologies for my part in perpetuating any of the needless bickering, to both those who asked in various ways that I not do it, to those I argued for, or against, and to the wider community. I promise not to do it again until next time...No, seriously, I hope I've learned something here. I hope the community has.

Oddly, I'm leaving the thread open because reasonable people may have reasonable points to make, and not everyone has been as bad as I have.
Please learn from my mistake, that a good intention doesn't make everything you post right, or nice.
But I think I may have said enough.
We have an accord, and, I hope, more than five people left here.

[deano_ue]

OK EVERYONE START MAKING UP SMART INTELLIGENT DECISIONS, NEXT ONE ACTS LIKE A SMARTASS WILL BE GET MY BOOT SO FAR UP THERE arse THEY'LL TASTE SHOELACES

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Man, I'm glad nobody liked my content enough to use it in anything.

Ahem.

Is this on?

[tommyboy]

Man, I'm glad nobody liked my content enough to use it in anything.

Ahem.

Is this on?

I use your skins, they are great.
Dunno why none got into AvengersSpecial, it was released in 2004, how many skins of avengers had you released back then?

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Oh. I think the four old-school Avengers were released by then. Quicksilver, The Vision, Captain America and Wonder Man, I think.

I wouldn't have minded if they were included. All I've ever asked is that my skins aren't altered and re-released, and that I get a heads-up if they're ever used in any other capacity, just so I know.

[tommyboy]

Oh. I think the four old-school Avengers were released by then. Quicksilver, The Vision, Captain America and Wonder Man, I think.

I wouldn't have minded if they were included. All I've ever asked is that my skins aren't altered and re-released, and that I get a heads-up if they're ever used in any other capacity, just so I know.

I know I added all those into my personal playing copy, but I must have missed them somehow prior to release

[HumanTon]

I've been away from the FF community the last while for the usual reasons (FF machine died, got a new job that demands my attention, etc.)

I stopped by Freedom Reborn last night to see what cool things people are up to and ... oh my. I feel like the time-traveler in a science fiction story who returns from the past only to find his cosy, happy home turned into an apocalyptic wasteland.

I've cast my vote, and having done that I intend to get back into my time machine and travel far, far away. Perhaps the next time I return to FR the bitter, hostile, prickly wasteland full of empty talk will have returned to the happy, welcoming, supportive place full of cool things I used to know.

[bat1987]

I didn`t get involved in discussion, because I`m not a content creator (I did few skopes for Alberik, but thats it), but as a member of the community I`m glad that common sense prevailed. Both sides had some good points, and I voted for using the extra content option, because it deffinitely seems like the best solution both for Benton and the content creators. Cheers! 

[cmdrkoenig67]

Now see....I was intending to add a couple of Non-playable characters that I hexed and skinned with my mod...Now I'm not, just so I won't peeve anybody off. 

Hopefully, the fact that I made all the maps, skinned all the characters and made all the voicepacks isn't going to inadvertently cheese somebody off.  I gave credit for everything that's included as part of the mod, so I should be safe.

Dana

[Gremlin]

Now see....I was intending to add a couple of Non-playable characters that I hexed and skinned with my mod...Now I'm not, just so I won't peeve anybody off. 

Hopefully, the fact that I made all the maps, skinned all the characters and made all the voicepacks isn't going to inadvertently cheese somebody off.  I gave credit for everything that's included as part of the mod, so I should be safe.

Dana

Actually, I don't think original content is in contention here. You can add those original characters, no problem.

[Champion 2 of 11]

So yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum.  No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama.  Problem solved.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! 

[BWPS]

The Freedom Force aspect of this community isn't like it used to be. I think the odds of someone downloading the mod just to use all the extra skins and stuff is low. Not a whole lot of new people are buying up Freedom Force and starting to get into it, the rest of the people know how to get resources and know who made them. It's not me getting "hurt" by this, so maybe that's why but I think there's nothing to worry about. Benton just wanted to have all the characters available to use, he didn't work 3 years on this mod because he wanted to make a content torrent and he isn't advertising it as such.
The people who are upset about this either
1.) Didn't have any content they made in the mod and I guess think that someone won't download their stuff because everyone can just download DCUG to get the stuff from there. Which is unlikely to have much of an effect (because I'm pretty sure very few people are downloading things these days), wasn't Benton's intention, and is really not different from any other mod, their "problem" would still exist if he DID use all the characters in campaigns. But why should he have to put them in campaigns before releasing this?
2.) Did have content they made in the mod and don't want him using it. Well then I'm not sure why you made it, but I can understand that and I'm sure Benton would have removed it. But I don't think anyone even complained about this.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

I voted No, I have another objection.

The problem with Benton's mod was that he distributed and used content in a manner that is against the intent of some of the content creators.  He is working to correct that situation however.  Once the content is used towards the intent of the content creators then I no longer have an issue with the mod.  I wouldn't post here, but if the poll is used in any sort of decision making then I wanted to get my vote in, and the option I voted for specifically asked for a reason why I voted the way I did.

[BentonGrey]

That's not true, Nymie, I distributed the content in a way that was against the intent of ONE creator, who's work I removed.  The rest of the creators gave consent and supported the project in one way or another.  Even those who had reservations still agreed that I could release it.

[stumpy]

Folks, I have removed some recent posts and I am locking the topic, as will surprise no one who saw some of the posts removed. Which posts were split out is somewhat arbitrary, since it was tough to decide where things went too far.

My current intent is that the locking be temporary. The posters with itchy trigger fingers need to give this topic (in this thread and others) a rest for a while and it won't hurt anyone to let this go until tomorrow.



Okay, the thread is unlocked again. If people want  to continue this discussion, then let the watchword be "civility".