Forum Situation: Update

[Boalt92]

 

I happend to click on the wrong bookmark and...



From a legal standpoint, the Freedom Force Forum can continue without issue with original content and characters.  The End User License that came with the game allows for that.

I'm not condemning or condoning anybody or their beliefs or actions, but individual artists do have the right to control work they produced, even it was done in violation of an existing copyright law.

As far as your personal portfolio sites, you should be able to continue to display copyrighted characters as long as you don't distribute any of the work.  Most companies have "fan art" allowances in their copyright policies and, from what I understand, web sites are o.k.

Please keep in mind, however, that art is not my specialty, so if you have any concerns you may want to consult somebody.

Of course, I'm not active in the community any more, but, Stumpy is right, this appears to be an isolated incident and you don't need to overreact.  If anything, you can remove the posts of members who may be banned in the future.

I am admittedly ignorant on file sharing laws, but it seems to me that, unless his work was being distributed by the forum itself, the forum could not be held liable for how it was used (or for the actions of it's members).  This is particularly true if he voluntarily posted images of his own work on the forum (which, if I'm not mistaken have to be hosted somewhere else anyway?).

If this is the case, a simple disclaimer stating that, by posting images on the forum you give the forum the right to display (but not distribute) said images, might be enought to protect you.

Again, this is not my area of expertise, I can only go by what I know of property rights and contract law, so please don't take my word as anything other than my own opinion.


B92

[Gremlin]

BTW, as sort of a general "silver lining" note, as much frustration as everyone has felt during this incident, I must say that I have been heartened by the way this community has pulled together, in support for one another, and in appreciations for the titans' and admins' work to keep us up and running. This is a great bunch of people and I am proud to be part of it.

Nicely put Stumps (may I call you Stumps?).  In fact I agree whole-heartedly with all you've said just there, but it was the last bit that warmed the cockles of me heart...

What the heck is a cockle, anyway?

(Oh, I agree with TPE and Stumps too, I guess... )

[Sledgehammer]

Good to know that everything seems to be setting down a little bit, GG. Thanks for your hard work in order to solve this problem. And thanks to everybody else responsible for keeping this together.

[BlueBard]

Sheesh... leave the kids alone for awhile and look what happens....

I'm like a lot of folks.  I don't play FF anymore.  I have no particular skill as an artist.  And I'm not as active on FR as I used to be since real life snuck up and whacked me on the back of the head.

But I will re-iterate that I'm glad FR is still here and I completely applaud and appreciate the efforts of the Titans, Admins, and Mods to keep it that way.

And I will remind everyone that this isn't the first time that the community was threatened by the extinction of its' message boards... nor is it the first time that someone childishly decided to ruin peoples' enjoyment of them.  Okay, maybe it is the first time both happened at the same time...

Just remember that there are no copyright restrictions on friendships and that you can't break up a community by filing a complaint with an ISP.

One thing does occur to me, though.  Could the Titans and Admins publish a policy that all posts hosted by FR are the property of FR management (or whomever might be appropriate).  Let's shut down the ridiculous argument that somehow any nonsense someone happens to type here is their own property.  If people want to post their own copyrighted material, they can link to it... which is pretty much what normally happens anyway in the case of artwork.

[lugaru]

This episode does have me wondering about forum message copyright and charging royalties whenever I get quoted. Forget that actually, I rarely get quoted...   

[Tortuga]

One thing does occur to me, though.  Could the Titans and Admins publish a policy that all posts hosted by FR are the property of FR management (or whomever might be appropriate).  Let's shut down the ridiculous argument that somehow any nonsense someone happens to type here is their own property.  If people want to post their own copyrighted material, they can link to it... which is pretty much what normally happens anyway in the case of artwork.

Not many people would go for that and that's the kind of thing that could get FR into more problems.  If any policy is introduced it would need to say something to the effect of "Any posts made by forum members are done by their own free will, and products posted by members are done with their consent.  FR does not host images or files and is therefore not responsible for any copyright infringing products posted by the members -- just as a lamppost is not responsible for the flyers someone tapes to it."  That's not very legalize, but you get the idea.

We're all adults here (well, most of us act like them anyway) and we all make our own choices.  Once you make a choice you have a responsibility.

[herodad1]

my question is...when is the resource part of the forum coming back?i'm sure theres quit a few skinners/meshers out there with things theyve created because of their love of the game and the enjoyment they see their stuff brings people that are just waiting for a green light.

[BlueBard]

One thing does occur to me, though.  Could the Titans and Admins publish a policy that all posts hosted by FR are the property of FR management (or whomever might be appropriate).  Let's shut down the ridiculous argument that somehow any nonsense someone happens to type here is their own property.  If people want to post their own copyrighted material, they can link to it... which is pretty much what normally happens anyway in the case of artwork.

Not many people would go for that and that's the kind of thing that could get FR into more problems.  If any policy is introduced it would need to say something to the effect of "Any posts made by forum members are done by their own free will, and products posted by members are done with their consent.  FR does not host images or files and is therefore not responsible for any copyright infringing products posted by the members -- just as a lamppost is not responsible for the flyers someone tapes to it."  That's not very legalize, but you get the idea.

We're all adults here (well, most of us act like them anyway) and we all make our own choices.  Once you make a choice you have a responsibility.

I'm cool with that sort of language, too.  You'd think "post by consent" would be inherently understood, wouldn't you? 

I just don't want to see numbskulls thinking they can hold the site hostage by crying wolf.  Now that someone has essentially done it, it opens the door for future disgruntled persons to try the same.  I'd like to see that door shut, locked, and barred to the extent that it's possible to do without ruining the site for everyone.  At a minimum, some recognition that when someone decides to post here it is not the responsibility of the admins to remove that text or link.

I guarantee that if it's clear that if you want your own posts removed you go do it yourself, that will put a kink in things.

(I'm chuckling at the image of someone rooting through hundreds of posts trying to delete all of their own.)

[BlueBard]

Nevermind... the technical difficulty of having a banned person remove their own posts escaped me momentarily.

[Gremlin]

Nevermind... the technical difficulty of having a banned person remove their own posts escaped me momentarily.

...HA.

[stumpy]

It's not uncommon for boards to have a couple lines in the board rules or user agreement that make it clear that posters are giving permission to host the content that they post. I saw something pretty extensive in the Washington Post's rules for submitting comments and I am pretty sure that if someone demands that all their posts be removed, the WaPo could legally just ignore them.

Anyway, it may be worthwhile to have a short statement like "FR does not host members' images, files, or other content; such content linked in posts must be hosted elsewhere. Posters give permission to FR to host the text and formatting of the posts indefinitely."

[Gremlin]

It's not uncommon for boards to have a couple lines in the board rules or user agreement that make it clear that posters are giving permission to host the content that they post. I saw something pretty extensive in the Washington Post's rules for submitting comments and I am pretty sure that if someone demands that all their posts be removed, the WaPo could legally just ignore them.

Anyway, it may be worthwhile to have a short statement like "FR does not host members' images, files, or other content; such content linked in posts must be hosted elsewhere. Posters give permission to FR to host the text and formatting of the posts indefinitely."

Sounds good to me.

[Cyber Burn]

   What the heck?!?!?! I popped in to find my happy place, but it's not all here. I skimmed through some of the posts here, and am blown away. I want my happy place back! 

   But seriously, I'm glad the boards are continuing. There's alot of good people here, and I hope that the resource threads do come back. But if for any reason that FR does go under and a new board is created, could someone drop me a line? There should be a few people around here who have my  e-mail, I know Benton does for sure.

   Until later, everyone take care. 

[crimsonquill]

It's not uncommon for boards to have a couple lines in the board rules or user agreement that make it clear that posters are giving permission to host the content that they post. I saw something pretty extensive in the Washington Post's rules for submitting comments and I am pretty sure that if someone demands that all their posts be removed, the WaPo could legally just ignore them.

Anyway, it may be worthwhile to have a short statement like "FR does not host members' images, files, or other content; such content linked in posts must be hosted elsewhere. Posters give permission to FR to host the text and formatting of the posts indefinitely."

Yeah, sounds like a good idea to me.. because really all FR was doing was providing links and those that don't wanna share anymore just have to remove their pics from their source and break their links.

- CQ

[detourne_me]

Seriously, there are much larger forums based on illegal torrents, roms,(actual copies of copyrighted material) that are legally safe because they do not actually host the content themselves.
In our case, it's fan art, and it's free. Nobody is bundling their skins with a scanned comic book or video file from a movie. I'm not sure about the legal implications of distributing skins, but I don't see any reason why FR wouldn't be perfectly safe without a disclaimer stating "We do not host files here" (or any other variation that has been previously worded, and better phrased)

[The Nemesis]

Possibly, but I think I remember one of the mods saying on another thread that the board is down to protect others as well as FR.

Not only that but it seems like IPS threatend FR more than individual sites (if at all) because he knows this is the nerve center. I think if a holder of any infringed copyright saw it as such they could possibly set their eyes on it the same way the RIAA used to keep the evil eye on torrent sites (and probably still do). Not that I think that would happen, but for some reason putting up a disclaimer doesn't strike me as something that would change much for FR.

I think in reality if Marvel/DC did take an interest they would go stright to the artists than a forum where nothing is hosted.
That would in turn probably just cause FR to lose the posts/sections that pertain to the Marvel/DC stuff simply cause there would be no more need for them.

[BlueBard]

Legal questions:

If I spray graffiti on a wall, is it copyright protected?  If someone comes by, takes a picture, then posts it on the internet, have they violated any copyright protections?

If I fax somebody my mother's recipe for oatmeal chocolate chip cookies for free, is the recipe copyright protected?  Can Mom sue me?

If I send somebody an email and they forward it on to a million of their closest friends, have they violated copyright protections?

I'm a little hazy on the distinction between what's public domain and what's subject to copyright, but common sense ought to apply here.  Posting on FR in my own words should be public domain and I think the ISP ought to recognize that.

Am I wrong?

[House Quake]

Legal questions:

If I spray graffiti on a wall, is it copyright protected?  If someone comes by, takes a picture, then posts it on the internet, have they violated any copyright protections?
- technically yes.  Your art.  but you may have issues about the wall itself (if you don't own it)

If I fax somebody my mother's recipe for oatmeal chocolate chip cookies for free, is the recipe copyright protected?  Can Mom sue me?
- I can't remember about things like recipes... I don't think it falls under copyright..but there are other protections which may apply

If I send somebody an email and they forward it on to a million of their closest friends, have they violated copyright protections?
- depending on the email... there could be privacy issues, slander issues, copyright issues, etc

I'm a little hazy on the distinction between what's public domain and what's subject to copyright, but common sense ought to apply here.  Posting on FR in my own words should be public domain and I think the ISP ought to recognize that.

Am I wrong?

Most of what you asked are vague and thin lined wtih no clear cut answer... thus is the nature of copyright laws.

But let me throw a few tidbits out there.

I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the musician Prince...and his recent 'war' vs. the internet... in this relevant case... his own fan sites. In order to avoid legal ramifications, the sites which 'DO NOT' and never did host any files... have been forced to remove any links to videos, links to music, unauthorized images, etc  The sites banned together vs. his threats of legal actions... but were advised by their lawyers to comply voluntarily or be forced to comply and face real penalties.  As part of a compromise... the fans can post images of Prince with the exceptions of a few which were never released to the public either officially or taken by the paparazzi or fans.  But... no links directly or indirectly to any music or videos...period. 

This is not unlike how 'Freedom Fans' treated 'copyright' material.  We were not allowed to display... link to... or even discuss any material of a 'copyright' nature on those forums..ie no DC, Marvel, etc.  We couldn't even link to sites which had the material.

Both of these examples lead me to believe that there may not be exact wording in the laws against this, but at some point legal precedence has been set which allows for legal actions to be taken vs fan sites and the like by copyright/trademark owners. And in these, cases hosting the files aren't relevant... its the distribution aspect.  Even posting a picture on a forum is in essence distributing a file.

I'm pretty sure it may blanketed by file distribution issues which have been decided over the years. 

Detourne_me, mentioned how some site are, "... legally safe because they do not actually host the content themselves."  This is only true in part.  Those sites are usually safe because they do not fall under specific copyright jurisdictions.  Pirate Bay is one of the most notorious in this aspect because their site is hosted on servers in a country which U.S. copyright laws aren't enforced nor are any other copyright law which would make what they do illegal.  This is a common safety net for sites which distribute copyright protected material... they find hosting in countries with more relaxed laws who don't honor U.S or most other international copyright laws.

[cripp12]

Tommy,
Please do not blame yourself any longer. You were the victim here. From the beginning you have helped this community to better the game where the other guy had a totally selfless attitude toward the Community . Me Me Me. I always new that some day he would be the cause for FF's downfall here. Hold your head up and keep doing what you do here and with MUA.
God Speed.

[laughing paradox]

I was curious, and please don't take this as an insistence more than an inquiry, but is there a general timeline of when the FF forums may be back up?

[Xenolith]

The part I don't get is how an artist can draw the Flash, for example, and put the picture on a website and not get in trouble, but another fan can create a skin or mesh of the flash, put it on a website, and then get in trouble.  There is no difference between the two other than the media used.  Heck, a lot of professional artist get paid to draw the Flash and none of that money goes to DC.

From what I've heard, there is a provision somewhere in some document (that I've never seen a copy of or even named) that allows for private artsits to create comissions using Marvel ad/or DC characters.  Does anyone have a copy of that?

Maybe I'll dig around a little bit.

Later...

Found this on the Marvel website:

If you are aware or suspect any persons infringing on the intellectual property of Marvel, please describe the suspected infringement below. Please be as detailed as possible so that the claim can be investigated properly. Please also provide as much information as possible on the suspected infringer (ex. name, address, website, e-mail, phone number).

Such examples of intellectual property infringement are: 1) Unlicensed merchandise using Marvel's characters or names; 2) Unapproved commercial use of Marvel characters or trademarks; 3) Counterfeit products; and 4) Illegal copies of Marvel material being sold or distributed.

Certainly none of that applies here, but they are only examples.

I can't find anything on the DC site.  Really strange.

[deano_ue]

i know a lot of lawyers would say 4 applies here and to fan art, basically you are taking a copy of there character design and passing it around without there permission

[BentonGrey]

Yeee-Haw!

[Zapow]

As Benton noticed, the FF section has been restored.

[Xenolith]

I'm not sure "illegal copies" applies to fan or commissioned art.  Fan art isn't a "copy" unless they are directly recreating comic books or merchandise, right?  I mean, if it were, then people like John Byrne, who is likely making several tens of thousands a year doing comissions, would be paying Marvel royalties.

I just want a reason why they can do it but we can't?

[Gremlin]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Thanks to all the mods, admins and titans yet again for doing all they could to get everything back in working order.

I must admit, I gave a cry of triumphant victory when I saw it was back up!

[wickerman]

Thanks powers that be!!!!

[tommyboy]

Thanks for resolving this.

[clownprince]

  wat i'm i doing here 

[Alaric]

Even though I haven't actually played the game, or even downloaded anything for it, in a while (something that may change soon... I do miss it), I'm very happy to see that section of these boards that they originally centered around back. Felt like something important was missing. Great job, everyone involved.