Hero debate: who cant be replaced? Which replacements do you like?

[lugaru]

There was a talk on a podcast I listen to about somebody taking over the Batman mantle and if this is a big deal or not. Captain America came up as a great example... the character is well defined but his successor is different enough to be interesting and it is not like Steve Rogers disapearing from the marvel universe is as big a deal as Cap disapearing.

Superman of course is the impossible one, even though he was really bland in the 80's they started to flesh him out, make Clarke into less of a nobody and define him by his upbringing rather than his origin (he is a kid of great parents first and an alien second). In Marvel I would say Wolverine cant be replaced... I mean everyone calls him Logan and he does not even bother wearing a mask much anymore. The Fantastic Four are the same... nobody ever says Mr. Fantastic or Invisible Woman... it is always Reed and Sue.

Also what do you think of heroes becoming legacy heroes? Like the idea that there have been a ton of Iron Fist and Ghost Riders and that every character will eventually pass on the costume.

[Glitch Girl]

I'd say Green Lantern is probably the best example of a Legacy hero, simply because of the nature of the job: a GL is one of many chosen to protect the universe. 

The fact is, each time someone gets the ring, they add their own spin on it.  I was glad and a little suprised that Kyle was allowed to be Green Lantern sans Hal Jordon for as long as he was.  True it didn't last forever, but I liked the new take on the character (especially in some of the Morrison JLA stuff at the time).  John Stewart is another different take on the character, one that got a major boost from the JL animated series which is yet another interpretation of the GL role. 

And of course, there's Guy. 

"Green Lantern" is a job description, not a specific character, and it works well for passing on the legacy, even if some people don't want to let it go.

(note: I did not include Alan Scott in this list since his ring and development seem have always been divergent of the "Green Lanterns of Oa" In some ways I see Alan Scott as a Mentor type character in the whole "legacy aspect", yet  still having a unique niche.)

[JeyNyce]

If you say GL then you'll have to add the Flash to the list as well.  From my past reading, The flash mantel seems to be past down from generation to generation (Barry, Wally, Bart).  Like GG said each one add their own twist to the role.

[Gremlin]

I have very mixed feelings on the idea of Batman as a legacy hero. Bruce Wayne is such a uniquely compelling character, and he really transformed himself into the Batman by his own sheer will. I can't really see something that's as much a part of Bruce as Batman taken up by someone else. On the other side, from a realistic stance, I completely understand why the mantle would be passed down to Dick or Tim when he's older: Wayne's not immortal, and Batman has to be more than human. It makes the most sense from a "realistic" storytelling device.

Artifact heroes in general are good for legacies; Green Lantern, Thor, etc. I DON'T like Scorpion Venom for the same reason I'd be worried about a non-Bruce Wayne Batman, but that's a little different.

You know who else is great for it? Wonder Woman. A new Amazonian diplomat every couple of years would be great.

[JeyNyce]

I agree with you some what about Batman, but then there's Batman Beyond.  He had Bruce's guidance, but it was somebody else under the mask.

[GrizzlyBearTalon]

Interesting concepts, though more of something done in DC than Marvel.

It exists in Marvel comics *in theory* but in the cases it does it is usually for either villains, side switches (ie sucessor to hero is villain or vice versa), some random future version of the universe (2099, Spider-Girl, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.), or heroes but the catch is this so called legacy hero is the ONLY version of that hero we have ever seen. An example of that would be Black Panther (T'challa) it has supposedly been around forever but we've only met T'Challa. This would also apply to Dr. Strange as well.

Another legacy hero is the Blue Beetle, we've had three total. Though the legacy isn't quite as thoroughly done as other legacy heroes. That being said I really love the new Blue Beetle and I don't miss Ted at all. Pretty sure they'll probably bring him back though, kinda defeats the purpose of the bothering with legacy at all. Anyways I liked how they tied in all of the blue beetle history into the new one, some may not like it but I enjoyed it.

I think a good legacy hero possiblity would be Iron Man myself.

Personally, I think the real trick of a legacy hero is giving us a new character that is as interesting as the old one. Batman had a lot of issues, so if you are going to replace him you need someone just as interesting. You can't ride the "will I ever fill his shoes" or "i'm not as good as the original" drama cliche train forever. I think it is trickier to do with Batman simply because he IS so damaged of an individual. It is like some always say about the difference between Batman & Superman, with Batman Bruce Wayne is the mask and with Clark Kent/Kal-El the mask is Superman. I think part of what helped Batman Beyond was that we had a whole new setting (the future) to go along with everything else, it gave us a new look to everything to go with the new hero.

[detourne_me]

I think there can be a basic formula for legacy characters.
If the name of the superhero is meant to be iconic, to represent something that is deep in our psyche, or expresses a great human desire, then it can be a legacy character. However, if the person in the role of the superhero is more exciting, more relatable, then it could never be a good legacy character.
For example Green Lantern, Flash, Captain America and Captain Marvel (both of em) are strong iconic heroes, and it almost doesn't matter who is under the mask, as long as that person exudes the qualities needed to live up to the legacy.
On the other hand, Wildcat, Blue Beetle, and Black Panther are failed Legacy heroes because who was under the mask was more important, and the title of the hero has never had a real position of power.
Ghost Rider is a good example of a newly made legacy hero (heck there already was danny ketch and johnny blaze) because the iconic look and purpose of Ghost Rider makes it so.

[Glitch Girl]

@Jey
Flash is definitely a legacy character.  In fact, the GL/Flash pairing is practically a legacy pairing. 

RE: Batman
Batman Beyond's Terry was a great legacy character IMO.  He brought his own spin to the Dark Knight while keeping the core of the Batman persona.  This was very evident in "The Return of the Joker"  (where they also explained why Tim never took the mantle in a nicely done creepy way) 

I'm not sure what to call Nightwing: he's obviously Batman's protege, but instead of taking the mantle of the Bat, he chose to make his own path (note: I'm not following "Battle for the Kowl", so this may have changed temporarily)  I do like it though - a character allowed to grow up. 

As Griz pointed out, Marvel doesn't have this.  There are very few mentor/protege relationships in Marvel that I know of.  Captain America/Bucky comes to mind, but otherwise... I'm drawing a blank. 

RE: Blue Beetle
I would LOVE to see Ted Kord come back, but not as the Blue Beetle, but in some other capacity.  He's too fun a personality to lose in such a blah way, but I think that Jamie should be allowed to continue to develop as the Blue Beetle.  Also, I agree tying all the histories together is kinda cool, and gives them something they can build on.

[Gremlin]

You know, Batman as a legacy character works very well as an inspiration. As much as I enjoyed Batman Beyond, I could never buy McGinnis as the Batman of urban myth; he always came across as a kind of stealthy technological Spider-Man (stealthy Blue Beetle? ). Nightwing works well, and heck, the whole Bat-Family. And I've always enjoyed the army of Bat-vigilantes in DKR.

[JeyNyce]

Batman could be legacy, but not in the way we're talking about here.  Batman has been over so many times and there are so many different version of him.  There mid-evil batman, Vampire, Pirate, "church" batman, etc....so in a way he is legacy, but only to the readers, not in the DCU.

[Zippo]

I'm a fan of legacy characters. It just makes sense to me because superheroes are supposed to inspire people, not just protect them.

Probably my least favorite legacy is what happened with The Question. It frustrated me to no end how they brought him back into the spotlight from relative obscurity, made him totally awesome (not that he wasn't always... perhaps "established" is a better word here) , then killed him.

Kyle Rainer and the new Blue Beetle are probably my favorite legacies, just in terms of their characters.

Making Bucky Captain America was a great idea IMO, because it fits entirely with the mindset of the states at the moment (at least in my opinion, though I'm Canadian). I'm not even talking about the gun use. Bucky, a character who grew up idolizing Cap, the pinnacle of the American ideals, has grown up himself into something very different. The way he looks back at what Steve would have done in a given situation, but really follows his own path is, i think, quite representative of the times. There's a reevaluation of the American dream, and what it means to be American, and I think a lot of people might be confused about it. Bucky really shows this, and brings the Captain America idea into the new age.
Anyway, that's just my take on it. Real American citizens probably have an entirely different view, but this is what has made Cap interesting to me for the first time in my entire life. 

[DrMike2000]

Superman can't be replaced, as already said. Its part of his mythology now that he's still alive one million months from now.

Spidey can't be replaced. He's all about who Peter Parker is rather than who Spiderman is.

[lugaru]

Very true about spidey... it is not tough to have somebody with similar powers put on the costume and swing around but a lot of the character is Peter with his family obligations, money problems, scientific curiosity and his optimism that sometimes gives way into a certain darkness. He is one of the few characters where I buy it when he snaps because he is very hard working yet never apreciated (hated in the papers, taken for granted).

[BlueBard]

Very true about spidey... it is not tough to have somebody with similar powers put on the costume and swing around but a lot of the character is Peter with his family obligations, money problems, scientific curiosity and his optimism that sometimes gives way into a certain darkness.

Don't you really need to extend that logic to Batman?  The most interesting part of the whole character is Bruce Wayne's obsession and how it drives him.  He's always dancing on the edge of madness, in a way.  You can put the Batman suit on someone with similar skills (and they have done that before), but it doesn't make that person 'The Dark Knight' or 'The World's Greatest Detective'.

To argue the flip side, hasn't Marvel effectively replaced Peter Parker with 'himself'?  The guy currently slinging the webs is not the same Peter who married MJ if you care to look at it in a certain way.  And don't even get me started with the clones.  Ben Reilly was just Peter Parker with another name, in some sense.

At one point I would have said Iron Man would make a perfect legacy hero.  Stark hasn't been the only one to wear the armor.  But Stark's obsession with controlling his armor technology and the development of the extremis tech (which I am not a big fan of, btw, too big of a deus ex machina plot device) makes that far less likely.  There will be other Iron Men, but they won't be the same.

[lugaru]

Don't you really need to extend that logic to Batman? 

To argue the flip side, hasn't Marvel effectively replaced Peter Parker with 'himself'? 

Yeah, I think batman is one of the hardest to replace because of all the Bruce Wayne stories and his specific skill set. As is there is some difference between one Robin and another, so anyone taking on the mantle would have to be very different unless they can be an effective detective, forensic scientist, ninja, financial genius and the works.

As for the spidey comment that is actually really clever, I would have never thought of that. They replaced convoluted Peter with Simple Peter. My only problem is that I always loved the stories that took into account his marriage, it was another thing that is rare amongst heroes.

[GhostMachine]

The only character who could ever replace Bruce Wayne as Batman is Dick Grayson, and I'd rather they not do that permanently.

I grew up with Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, but my favorite Green Lantern, aside from Alan Scott, is Kyle Rayner.

If they had to replace Steve Rogers as Captain America, I'm glad it was Bucky who replaced him. If it had been USAgent, who I refer to as "A-Hole America", again, I'd be beyond angry. Bucky in the role is the one thing that's kept me reading Captain America, as Cap (Steve) is my favorite Marvel hero, and if it were someone else I'd probably have dropped the title immediately after they killed off Steve. My only gripe is the costume makes him look more like Captain Puerto Rico than Captain America.

[Tomato]

Honestly... My main exposure to comics has always been the Kyle/Wally era, and I always found them more compelling then Hal or Barry... until GL:Rebirth, that is. I've grown to appreciate Post-Crisis-Crisis Jordon 

So yeah, I'm a big fan of legacy characters, and I'd love to see (even as an elseworlds or whatever) Dick grow into the Batman role, legitimately. And I don't mean the "oh Dick's Batman now!" kinda thing, but an actual comic that dealt with him becoming Batman, embracing that role.

[GrizzlyBearTalon]

At one point I would have said Iron Man would make a perfect legacy hero.  Stark hasn't been the only one to wear the armor.  But Stark's obsession with controlling his armor technology and the development of the extremis tech (which I am not a big fan of, btw, too big of a deus ex machina plot device) makes that far less likely.  There will be other Iron Men, but they won't be the same.

He lost those powers.

After the Skrull virus infected him during Secret Invasion, the Extremis effect was catastrophically purged from his body, and because of this he no longer has these powers.

I'm glad he did they were a bit much.

But you do make a good point, he is far too secretive to allow for another Iron Man at least right now. I can't imagine Stark dying w/o having a replacement. I think it would bother him to have his tech and all he worked for useless because it's secrets died with him. Of course I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he even pulled a Doom and has an army of cloned Tonys waiting to be created and programmed to replace him when he dies. Not sure if that would count as legacy or not, but I really do wonder if he does have something like that waiting around.

He may not want everyone to get their hands on his toys but I don't think he wants to leave them to rust for eternity after he dies either.

[marhawkman]

Don't you really need to extend that logic to Batman? 

To argue the flip side, hasn't Marvel effectively replaced Peter Parker with 'himself'? 

Yeah, I think batman is one of the hardest to replace because of all the Bruce Wayne stories and his specific skill set. As is there is some difference between one Robin and another, so anyone taking on the mantle would have to be very different unless they can be an effective detective, forensic scientist, ninja, financial genius and the works.

As for the spidey comment that is actually really clever, I would have never thought of that. They replaced convoluted Peter with Simple Peter. My only problem is that I always loved the stories that took into account his marriage, it was another thing that is rare amongst heroes.

Yeah, confusing Spidey was the GOOD Spidey.

[steamteck]

LOgically Batman like the phantom should pass down the role but "Batman Beyound" ,the only timverse cartoon I really hated, Knightfall etc has left so bad a taste in my mouth I don't want to see it happen. Bruce as Batman is more interesting than any replacement so far.

I preferred Wally to Barry and he still is the most interesting to me. They made him an interesting and eventually worthy successor.

I never liked Kyle , he seemed so small and normal . I can't tolerate either of those things in my larger than life heroes.


I don't think its about logic or worthiness . I think its more about interesting  with depth characters and the collective unconscious.

If you replace someone everyone knows who they are and they've become iconic its not going to work well

If you replace an interesting character with a lot of depth its going to go poorly

Finally I LIKE veteran heroes and always have even as a kid. ( I've always loathed kid heroes also)

another thought is to me Power girl or the Huntress work because they may be the next generation but they're different characters. In many cases this  is an interesting way to go especially if the original generation is not completely gone.