create a new freedom force with a freeware game engine like ogre 3d?

[Epimethee]

Yes, it is. Binaries are packaged for different distros: http://www.panda3d.org/download.php?runtime

As for the other programs, don't Blender and the Gimp work? As for the rest, well, if you don't need accelerated 3D, there's always the fallback solution: VirtualBox (or maybe Wine).

[Tawodi Osdi]

Wine is a bit touchy.  I've heard of a service that charges so much for a year or month that allows a number of games and programs to be ran.  As for Gimp, I have played around with it, but college and life in general leaves me little time to play around with.  What I would really like to do is use my growing writing skills (my major) for writing mods, and I have not gotten any of those programs to work yet.

[Cyber Burn]

I finally had time to sit and read all of this. All I can say, is that Tom and Alex have really blown me away with this.

I know I saw someone bring up the issue of compatability with the current  / skins and meshes, but I don't recall seeing it answered. If there is no compatability, would it be possible for extremely low level individuals like myself to create skins for this project using programs like (paint.net) or (gimp)? I have absolutely no familiarity with panda so I have no real understanding of what to expect, or how to contribute.

Also, once this game gets off the ground, what kind of programs will the average joe need to download/install in order to play?

[tommyboy]

OK, to spell out the compatibility issue:
Meshes and animations: ff and ffv3r use the gamebyro or netimmerse game engine, ie .nif files. Panda is a game engine using .egg files (though it can read some other formats).
Therefore, ff/v3r meshes and anims cannot simply be loaded in panda, or copied across, or currently converted en mass.
Apologies for megapost wall o' text.
However, if one is a mesh maker, one can take one's existing max files used for ff/v3r, and export them in a panda format (with a little deletion of unused bits, see my tutorial above).
You can also export to panda from Blender (free) or Maya (possibly free, cant remember).
I would imagine that a script to import .nifs into blender/max/maya and export .egg files would be possible. I am not offering to make it, because I can export meshes myself.
There are nif plugins which will allow ff/v3r meshes to be imported into Max/Blender/maya, and .egg exporters for all three platforms, so manual conversion is possible. WITH THE MESHER'S PERMISSION
So, to summarize, it takes some effort to get ff/v3r meshes into Panda at the moment *watches 99% of people lose interest at the mention of the word "effort"*, but that could change, possibly becoming nifskope levels of easy, or EZnif levels of easy.
Anyone already versed in Blender/maya/Max could already be making panda content.
Anyone who can programme a bit should be looking at scripting a conversion prog/plugin/script to mass convert, or easily single convert. If other meshers are agreeable. Take this statement as my permission to use my FF/v3r meshes and skins in Panda to get any other projects started, or to use in Alex's or my games when they are done. But you cannot sell my work, and credit should be given for what is mine. If the readme says I use anyone else's geometry, animations or skins in the mesh you may not use it in Panda unless you get their permission to do so. Other than that, knock yourselves out.

Skins: My panda meshes are made according to good old ff mapping (ie male_basic, etc), the skins you see are the skins I use in FF, with added bumpmapping and a different style of gloss(ie .refl).
Panda will "read" and "see" and display .tga, or jpg or bmp, but we decided for technical reasons (briefly, the best/most stable performance) to use .png in Alex's game.
But all the skins on all the meshes in all the screenies you have seen so far are actually .tga. (And mine. Nobody elses work/meshes/skins/anims/whatever is or will be used in this game without their explicit permission).
That's right. You could take your skins and copy them into our game (we currently are using the "meshname/skins/standard", "meshname/skins/alternate" naming/directory structure convention same as FF), AND THEY WILL WORK (you will still need to create/convert gloss/glow and bump yourself).
To summarize: Skins will work in panda, but gloss will need to be converted (takes about 20 seconds per file to greyscale and save the image to an alpha layer then save as a png, less time if you are a ninja), and a bumpmap should be added to see the full glory (bumpmaps can be made simply by running the male_basic.tga through nvidias normal map filter in photoshop, then saving as a png, though if you edit the result a little you get better effects, and the same is true with the gloss map).

So, ff/v3r meshes and animations will not work in panda, but can be converted, with some effort.
Skins will work in panda, but will need a little extra work to look their best.


As to what will be needed to play, the game will be self-contained, everything needed to play it will be part of the package, no extra downloads necessary. It will come as a standard installer which will make all necessary directories/shortcuts/what have you.
I hope that answers some of the questions about this subject..

[Cyber Burn]

Very much Tommy. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm really excited about what you guys are doing and appreciate all the work you're putting into this.

[Podmark]

I've sometimes wondered if it might actually be a good thing if we had to mesh and skin from scratch for a new game. With all the popular comic characters pretty much already made there seems to be less motivation from people to skin. Of course the flip side is that having to start from scratch may kill existing meshers/skinners interest because they'd have to redo all their work.

Regardless it's good to see there are some easy conversion methods. When the time comes I'll be happy to start up another permission list.

[Symon]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread. All the work so far looks amazing. Downloaded the SDK and at some point hope to have time to do something with it.

What I'd really like to see would the major think both FF/FF3R lacked. The facility to script more freeforme campaigns. (So they were more replayable and open-ended)

A little like DrMike's Free Roam campaign but on steroids.

[Tawodi Osdi]

Would air to air melee be possible?  Would it be possible to do such comic bookish cliches, like rescue civilians from burning buildings and such?  I understand that these restrictions are in place because of issues with the animations involved.  Or, am I jumping too far ahead?

[tommyboy]

Would air to air melee be possible?  Would it be possible to do such comic bookish cliches, like rescue civilians from burning buildings and such?  I understand that these restrictions are in place because of issues with the animations involved.  Or, am I jumping too far ahead?

Alex already has air-air melee in place and working, I still need to make more animations for it, (and to convince him to make air-ground and ground-air melee too, unless he already has..).
As for mission types like rescue, I hope so. As far as I know, he plans to have the game be open to modding, so I would hope that includes a flexible mission scripting system. Since it's all python-based, I think that sort of thing will be script-able, even if it's not built in to the game from the get-go.

[tommyboy]

Meanwhile, heres some of the stuff I'm trying to get in place:


First up, above: damage-decals. I want both generic and character specific stuff that can show people have taken damage.  Above is my first proof of concept showing the same damage on two different characters. You have an alpha'd skin (or skins) that the game layers on to the existing skin when A characters's helath hits certain levels. I'm hoping we can mix and match about a dozen different ones, so you will rarely see two chars damaged in the same way. Also will apply to objects, as you might expect. Still needs some work, as the decals need to be confined to the character and not their capes (unless we introduce ripped cape alpha damage decals...hmmm.)






Here we see my idea for modular building construction, and destruction. The idea is to have buildings which can be made up of simple wall and floor/roof parts,(first pic) making for greater variety in setting up maps. These will most likely also be packaged in pre-fab files to allow faster map making, if you arent one to build it all yourself.
The individual walls will take damage separately from each other (last pic), with total collapse occurring when enough walls get damaged enough.

Both ideas need a fair bit of work but are in principle things we can add that will make for a slightly more fun game..

[vamp]

  Thats awesome. I especially like the battle damage. Do they all come at one time, or do more and more pop up as the damage progresses?

[tommyboy]

Thats awesome. I especially like the battle damage. Do they all come at one time, or do more and more pop up as the damage progresses?

The model I favour is cumulative damage, with more and more small tears, rips, cuts, bruises, scorch marks, singes, cracks in armours etc showing up as your health bar goes down. Whether this is going to work,  I don't yet know. I was having trouble layering on more than one set of decals when last I played with it. But the Panda engine constantly surprises me, so it may just need some more thought..

[Podmark]

It's a great idea Tommy, I hope it works as you hope. I remember way way back someone was trying to see if a similar thing was possible in FF.

[Figure Fan]

I'm pretty much floored by all of this.

[lugaru]

What is funny is that so far you guy's are doing a lot of the things I had imagined would be awesome but never inquired about because it seemed impossible (the buildings is an example, I always wanted buildings done that way).

One thing I would LOVE to see though is an "interaction" system. Character plays a "manipulation" animation such as the one you use when you go to pick up an object or whatever. This animation can be used to disarm boombs, hack computers, repair technology, summon rituals... whatever. The idea though is to have an "X per second" based on skills. So for example a bomb requires 30 points of action and every turn you interact with it you reduce it by 3 until it is down to zero (disarmed). Somebody super fast (Flash) or super intelligent (or uniquely qualified) could reduce it by 6 or 10 or whatever each turn. That opens up the door to adding dozens of challenges to levels where one character is busy while the rest defend him. And it can be anything... freeing hostages, picking locks, disarming a doomsday device... anything. Just give it a statistic (like agility), an action point total and a trigger for when you are done.

So yeah, any typical item that requires interaction would have a total of action points required (say 40), what stat is linked (say intelligence) and stuff that modifies it (say +5 every turn if the character has scientist as an attribute). Also these things could be "blocked" so that you need at least 4 or 6 or whatever in a stat to make headway, therefore a character who is not super strong could not rip a metal door off its hinges (7 action points, so somebody  with 4 strength takes 2 turns while somebody with 8 does it instantly).

Hopefully since it would be "simple" your AI could engage these objects... like if you drop an AI controlled Batman near bombs he will start to disarm them if he is not being targeted by any foes.

[tommyboy]

That is an interesting idea. I sort of like how it would make certain events play out differently depending on your characters abilities (this idea is why I loved the original Deus Ex, back in the day).
But it could have the effect of narrowing choices for the player if not implemented carefully.
Let's take the bomb-defuse idea for a moment.
Suppose my character(s) are neither smart, nor fast, nor have any special tech or equipment that would speed defusing up. If the timing and circumstances (ie interruptions) are too tight, a basic bruiser could find it too hard, or even impossible. I think that you'd have to balance such events to reward certain traits but without punishing their absence too harshly, to keep gameplay interesting for everyone.
Or to reward players who think how best to use their characters abilities. Could a super strong char throw the bomb high/far enough to do no harm? Could they pummel the timer or detonator till the bomb broke but didn't explode (risky)? Could they cover it with lifted scenery items or fashion a bomb-shield out of nearby items?
I would like to make problems which do not have one solution requiring one type of character be the norm. But also to have some that are only solve-able/accessible to certain types, though these would not be mission critical ones.

Certainly it's food for thought..

[Podmark]

That's some good thinking Tommy.

One thing I liked about what lugaru said is that it could give some value to the smart heroes. FF doesn't really have any way to depict the intelligence of the Reed's, Batman's, and Tony's outside of specific scripted events and that a big part of those characters.

[lugaru]

Hopefully it would be entirely up to the scripter if a challenge is balanced or restrictive more so than the programmer. Say it is implemented, one guy could be real creative (fill the level with optional evidence for a detective character to collect for bonus prestige) while a newbie might make everything hinge on one very restrictive challenge... bring the wrong character and you lose. In other words hopefully if it is great or sucks depends on the guy who made the level you downloaded.

I don't know what the guts of it looks like but multiple solutions would rule, such as shorting out bombs with electrical attacks or freezing them solid (to either add time or defuse them). Still I have no clue if this game would allow damage types to trigger effects, it is something that never worked out of the box in Freedom Force. Of course I could see somebody like The Tick run with the bomb to somewhere safe while Superman level strength might offer a "throw into the sun" solution to most problems.

"oh no, I spilled red wine on the carpet"
"with my chemistry skills I can clean that in a few seconds"
"too late, superman threw the carpet into the sun"

[Symon]

Man of Steel - Brain of Steel!
(or should that be cantaloupe melon?)

[tommyboy]

Heh.
meanwhile, I got the damage decals to work randomly in-game, triggered by a set level of damage:



Still a few wrinkles to iron out, as I'm no programmer.
I need to set a flag to show that this particular level of damage has been done, as at the moment it's layering the same decal over and over, I think, causing chars to lose gloss and bumpmapping as the decals are applied for the second and third time.
I need to work out how to only apply the decals to the male/female_basic part of the mesh, rather than extras.
I need to find out if it is possible to layer on more than one different decal to give cumulative damage, or if I have to make several sets (ie first you get a minimum damage decal randomly called from that set, then a medium damage random, then a max damage decal random).
I need to work out how to set it up so that say hulk or iron man get character specific decals rather than the generic rip/flesh/cut.
But I'm moderately pleased with where I am so far..

[daglob]

Okay, the thing I notice is how The Thing looks. Everything looks great, but Ben...

[tommyboy]

Okay, the thing I notice is how The Thing looks. Everything looks great, but Ben...

umm... Ben what?
Looks awful? Great? Incomprehensible?
Whichever it is, he's still a work in progress as I got heightmaps working yesterday and he was the first character to receive one. (heightmaps or "parallax" maps are different from normal maps, and are used in conjunction with them to give the illusion of more polygons than there actually are).
Heres Ben with "just" diffuse, gloss and normal maps:

and here with the heightmap:


As you can see, I haven't quite mastered the use of heightmaps yet, but it's coming along...

I also just tweaked my damage decal script so it now has 3 levels of damage each of which adds in a random damage decal for Cumulative Visible Damage(c) TM patent not pending, no I'm happy about that 

[abenavides]

Nice work, TM!
Think I can resolve the remaining issues you mentioned.

[lugaru]

I love the extra dimension that hight maps ads, it should be able to do some cool stuff like make 2d facial features more prominent or make muscles seem meshed in.

As for the damage decals those are certainly above the call of duty but already as is they would add a really cool element to the game.

[tommyboy]

I love the extra dimension that hight maps ads, it should be able to do some cool stuff like make 2d facial features more prominent or make muscles seem meshed in. 

Yes.
It's really not apparent from static 2d shots, but the difference it makes having bump/height/normal on a mesh is huge.
It is, in many ways, going back to square one as far as the relationship between meshing and skinning is concerned.
It's making me rethink my meshing because now a skinned on belt can actually appear 3d (almost). Armbands, sashes, bandoliers, boots and other detail stuff I would have meshed in can be added at the skin stage. Some of us remember when male_basic or male_cape were the blank canvas the skinner bought to life. Well, we are back there, but better.
If other people choose to make content, specifically skins, I think that they will have a ball, because the diffuse and gloss textures are now only half the story.
Those muscles on Cap's legs, or Hawkeye's arms are not just painted on textures that look the same from any angle. They appear to be sculpted, meshed, 3d shapes with form and depth. I didn't paint on the white reflected highlights on Caps mail shirt, they are actually reflected and move as he moves, disappearing if he's in shadow, brighter if he's in a brighter light.
In essence we have high detail, high polycount meshes that are actually no more complex than ff meshes.
Look at this:

Again, the highlights and shadows on the eyes and hair are not painted on and static. But neither does she have a ridiculously high polycount (she does have a more complex head than female_basic, but it's the same as my Supergirl_tf or Silk_Spectre_tf or Namora_tf or other recent female ff meshes). Those eyelids and eyelashes that appear sculpted are skinned on in the normal map, as is the hair texture that actually is a texture.

I'm increasingly inclined to release a male_basic panda mesh for you to skin and play with, because I think until people do, and see it themselves, in pview (sort of ctool for panda), you won't know what you are missing. I'm by no means ashamed of my work (the big pics probably tipped you off to that  ), but I'm not sure it really sells how good this engine can look, because most of this stuff is placeholders and me learning as I go, or just proving principles.

[Panther_Gunn]

Okay, the thing I notice is how The Thing looks. Everything looks great, but Ben...

umm... Ben what?
Looks awful? Great? Incomprehensible?

I think what he was noticing is that Ben looked shiny.  On the closer-up shots, I can see it on certain parts of Hawk & Cap as well, at least parts that I wouldn't think would be that shiny.  Is shiny the way it will be, or are there a huge amount of options availble to skinners?  On the other side, I'm really digging the way it looks on Cap's scale mail.

And on a different topic, who's that naked guy takin a swing at Superman?   

[tommyboy]

Okay, the thing I notice is how The Thing looks. Everything looks great, but Ben...

umm... Ben what?
Looks awful? Great? Incomprehensible?

I think what he was noticing is that Ben looked shiny.  On the closer-up shots, I can see it on certain parts of Hawk & Cap as well, at least parts that I wouldn't think would be that shiny.  Is shiny the way it will be, or are there a huge amount of options availble to skinners?  On the other side, I'm really digging the way it looks on Cap's scale mail.

And on a different topic, who's that naked guy takin a swing at Superman?   

Yeah, the shiny issue is a thorny one.
It goes like this. If a char is matte, without reflection or specular highlight, you tend not to be able to see all the kewl bump/normal/parallax 3d type trickery.
The highlights a bit of shine gives you are the best way to actually see that stuff.
Getting it right is a balancing act I'm still learning.
Too much and you get the "plastic toy" look much complained of in mua, or everyone looks like Silver Surfer. Too little and you might as well not slave over the normal and heightmaps, as nobody will see them.

I initially leaned towards the left hand side of this pic, aka "my eyes! ze goggles, zey do nothing", but have toned it down towards the right hand side, settling on a compromise.
It's all adjustable in the gloss map, known hereabouts as "male_basic_refl", so if u r a h8t3r, you can manually adjust things to a less reflective world.
*wanders off whistling R.E.M.'s "shiny happy people"*

[Tawodi Osdi]

I liked Lug's idea about defusing bombs and hacking computers.  It gives characters whose abilities are limited to being smart more to do in the game.

[Podmark]

I'm increasingly inclined to release a male_basic panda mesh for you to skin and play with, because I think until people do, and see it themselves, in pview (sort of ctool for panda), you won't know what you are missing. I'm by no means ashamed of my work (the big pics probably tipped you off to that  ), but I'm not sure it really sells how good this engine can look, because most of this stuff is placeholders and me learning as I go, or just proving principles.

If you did I'd probably play with it. I'm very interested in all this.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I liked Lug's idea about defusing bombs and hacking computers.  It gives characters whose abilities are limited to being smart more to do in the game.

i'll go one further.  In addition to the idea about diffusing bombs and hacking computers, why not utilize some of the "ability" types seen in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.  I am thinking specifically with regards to the Adept, Infiltrator, and Engineer classes.    Powers that basically damage the shields of characters or barriers of characters in ME and ME 2.  And even things like levitating characters and putting them into stasis (though those abilities move past my point) would be a nice addition past the typical range combat and melee powers. 

The other thing, and the big one to me, would some sort of "stealth" ability.  There is a cloaking ability in ME/ME2 but there are similar abilities and concepts in Batman Arkahm Asylum and Spliter Cell Conviction.   

The point is that heroes who might be more the "brains" or not a traditional "tank" or "range" character would get nice little buffering abilities for the party and something to keep them from being constantly an easy target.