In Over My Head

[BentonGrey]

Howdy folks, I need the gathered wisdom of the community once again.  As many of you probably know, I've been teaching at a really great little community college, mostly Composition 101 and Humanities 100, for the last few years.  Well, in my comp. classes, I always offer a few graphic novels as choice of subject for one of their essays, and I've had several students ask "Why don't we have a graphic novel course?  Better yet, why aren't YOU teaching a graphic novel course?"  

On a lark, I brought it up to my boss at the beginning of the semester meeting, and she actually said that she could definitely see that being a success.  She tried to push me into doing a comp. course with a focus on graphic novels, but I don't really think there is any responsible way to do that, as most of what comp. 101 is about is teaching students the basic skills.  Still, she encouraged me to put together a class proposal.  I'm working on that right this moment, and I would love y'all's input, as well as your suggestions on what texts should make up the class readings.  My intention is for the focus of the class to be on superheroes and the changing ideas about what is heroic.  Here's the class description I've got so far:

Study graphic novels as literature in text and film, focusing on the changing nature of heroism.

The graphic novel, or long-form comic has become a widely popular artistic form, attracting prodigious talent and transcending its origins as light, youthful adventure fiction.  Graphic novels offer a wealth of possibilities for critical examination, both as works of literature and cultural artifacts.  Now this continuously evolving medium has proven its ability to create complex meaning through the synthesis of art and text, reflecting the issues and conflicts of their eras of composition and beyond.  They provide their readers with a lens through which to study, not only their own changing worlds, but also the fluctuating and evolving values and archetypes of the tumultuous past half century.

And here are a few sample "objectives" for the course:

• Students will learn and practice the basic tools necessary for literary criticism, and they will also  receive a grounding in a number of critical theories, practicing their application in art and culture
• Students will understand the conventions of comics as a medium and be able to
  explain their uses and effects in order to participate in critical discourse about the genre
• Students will apply knowledge gained from their readings as a means of understanding
  contemporary and historical economic, social, and political issues and
  perspectives

I'm thinking of including several texts, but I'm not entirely sure what all should make up my list.  Here's what I've got so far:
Astro City: Confessions
Kingdom Come
Watchmen
Dark Knight

Other titles I'm considering are:
Astro City: Life in the Big City
Astro City: Tarnished Angel
Marvels
Justice
V for Vendetta

What do y'all think?

[Glitch Girl]

It's older, but you may consider some of Will Eisner's non Spirit stuff since he was one of the firsts  to do graphic novels.  I have not read "A Contract with God" though I hear it is very good,  "The Dreamer" is very good and is basically autobiographical, "Life on Another Planet" is more intrigue and deals a lot with greed and betrayal, and  "The Name of the Game" (which contains a bit more prose than the others) is all about social class and the things people will do the gain and maintain it.  There are others, but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.

[EDIT: Whoops, missed that part about the emphasis on "superheroes".  My bad]

Let's not forget Sandman.  Some amazing stories in that one, but unlike the titles you have listed, it is not a self-contained story, but many stories that often intertwine.  Some of the early run is still intertwined in the DC universe and some costumed heroes do make appearances.

It may not be as good as I remember it, but "X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills" might fit the bill.

(As a supplement, you you may want to consider Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" which explores a lot of the techniques in visual storytelling)

[hoss20]

   Congratulations on this not small accomplishment. I think your current choices are fantastic. I think choosing Watchmen will work on more levels than just being a classic graphic novel. The fact that it won a Hugo award and was the only graphic novel to appear on Time's "All Time Greatest 100 Novels" list should lend some credibility to any argument you may have with those who might question the validity of what you are undertaking.
  I might also suggest The Death of Captain Marvel by Jim Starlin. Although, not by any means, the first graphic novel, it did usher in the current age of the popularized form. Personally, being 13 years old when it came out, I had never heard of a graphic novel before. I think the story told would fit into what you are trying to explore. Where most super hero deaths happen in an instant and we are left to deal with the ramifications for the next few months, this story deals with a hero aware of and facing his own mortality and the respect and honor bestowed upon him by friend and foe alike.

[thalaw2]

I don't know much about graphic novels but, as a fellow literature major, I would say your list is too contemporary for really exploring historical issues. You may want to add some golden and sliver age compilations.  However, I do understand this is a 100 level course and I already feel sorry that the poor kids have to suffer through literary critical theory....at least they get comic books.

[tommyboy]

You may also want to consider the late 60's and early 70's comics, (both underground and mainstream).
O'Neil and Adam's Green Lantern/Green Arrow and a lot of Marvel stuff (Lee, Thomas, Englehart etc) touch on social awareness and even political issues. The comics may appear a little dated to a contemporary audience, but moved the (superhero comic) genre forwards to the point where much of the other stuff already mentioned could actually get done.
The "underground" comics pushed boundaries even more, in some ways, and by doing so served to push the mainstream further towards "relevancy", which could be understood as an attempt to address some issues which actual literature and art were and are concerned with.
If the medium has grown at all, the seeds were sown in that time, with those books. They showed the medium had a potential beyond childish or adolescent concerns, allowing the people working in the 80's and beyond to attempt works beyond humour, horror or power fantasy.
"Maus" should also be included, in my opinion.

[John Jr.]

If you consider the modern collections of older comics you can get something interesting. I agree with thalaw2, some older editions would get them a better source to discuss the changes the medium suffered, for better and worse. They can get political issues ("liberal" stories vs "conservative" stories) or philosophical (heroes as modern demi-gods vs heroes as humans with powers).
Anyway, you choose some very interesting material. I think Marvels and Astro City: Life in the Big City are great choices (the way the normal human sees and is affected by the super-humans) and you could take a look in "Superman: Secret Identity", it's a very different take in a different version of the character and a story about themes like politics, family and mortality. You could get a interesting parallel with this book (with a very human, non alien Superman) and All-Star Superman (with a very iconic, larger than life, mythological Superman).
I would drop Justice of the list, since it's just an over extended Super Friends story, there are a lot of more interesting stories out there.
Good luck and let us know if we can help anyway.

[murs47]

(As a supplement, you you may want to consider Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" which explores a lot of the techniques in visual storytelling)

Agreed.

Personally though, I'd drop the emphasis of superheroes and go with titles that tackle historic events and/or current events. I think adults would be more willing to try graphic novels if they include themes and topics they are familiar with and can relate to.

[daglob]

I'd love to teach (or take) a class like this that is sponsored by the Art Department. Provided they have them, you might check with the Art Department and see if they might give you some support(and check with the Mechanical Drawing department if you have one; they use plotters that are laser printers or inkjets that can print a 2.5x3' page)

I'd love to hear you try to explain how the quirky and stylized art of Ditko and Kirby is every bit as good as the more realistic work by Adams and the painted work by Ross.

[detourne_me]

I was fortunate enough to have a fantastic professor in my undergrad  that used quite a bit of comics in all of his courses,
I'd like to suggest the Martha Washington books, especially Give Me Liberty. Scott McClouds Understanding Comics should be a requisite.
A lot of Frank Miller's work is great for study.  Ronin, Give Me Liberty, Dark Knight, Sin City, you could do an entire course just on his work.
Watchmen and V for Vendetta are also amazing.

hmm, perhaps Maus too?

jeez... if it were up to me (kinda wish it was )
this would be my required reading list;
Understanding Comics
The Dark Knight Returns
Maus
Kingdom Come
...and Watchmen


Just keep in mind that the students need to buy the books too right... don't go too crazy with the Marvel and DC books that are kinda expensive.

[lugaru]

First of all... AWESOME.

Second: here are my own personal picks, some reasoning and hopes that you read 'em if you havent. As you guys have noticed from the forum, I'm less into "heroes being heroic" and more into stories with conflict.

Obviosly you have Allan Moore covered with Watchmen, and I really hope you go with that, it is already in most schools and I think it is full of social criticism and literary allusions. Here are some other good selections:

FUNHOME: Some of the best comic writing since Allan Moore. Allison Bechdel tells her "coming of age" story but she weaves in a ton of literary references and her command of "continuity" is up there with Slaughter House Five by Kurt Vonnegut. She jumps back and fourth to different parts of her life as she tries to solve the mystery behind her fathers death (accident or suicide?) and overall it is an amazing work.

Asterius Polyp: The style of illustration is a storytelling tool, the cynical protagonist is an architect and he often deconstructs the world into shapes and figures to better understand it. Meanwhile the love of his life is a conceptual artist who is better represented by stylized brush strokes and warm colors. Meanwhile the story itself is gripping, sad, funny and deep.

Palomar by Gilbert Hernandez: the "One Hundred Years of Solitud" of comics... multiple generations, magic realism and a style of cartooning that is simple but renders each character instantly recognizable, both by their face and anatomy.

Maus The holocaust with cute mice and cats. Seriosly though since it is based entirely from interviews it is probably the most neck deep you can get into that history using cartoons.

Black Hole This book is made for college courses... not only is the art incredibly dense, dark and realistic but every page drips with angst and vagely disturbing sexual metaphors. A real mind opener.

Sandman - Fables and Reflections & Worlds End One of the better stand alone volumes of Sandman by Neil Gaiman and it plays with history, literature and the concept of story telling in general. Worlds End is another collection of short stories... but it employs stories within stories within stories, producing a deep layered narrative where not everything resolves and probably not everything is true.

[GhostMachine]

Definitely get Maus in there.

I'd also recommend Adolf by Osamu Tezuka, which Viz Media published in English. Or Apollo's Song, also by Tezuka. It was adapted into English a few years ago, but I don't remember by who. Apollo's Song may be a bit too graphic, though.

(Yes, Tezuka's stuff is manga, but it should fit your class and give a foreign point of view on things for them to think about)

[Panther_Gunn]

My only input would be about early examples (had forgotten about the Captain Marvel one).  The Silver Surfer graphic novel (1978) looks to be the first super-hero oriented one I can find.  Perhaps the New Mutants graphic novel.

Any use of including at least one "bad" example, of how the medium was used poorly, or just how it should *not* be done?

[ow_tiobe_sb]

Having taught Watchmen once, I can say that you can accomplish all the goals you set above with that text alone.  I will try to PM you with my own approaches (because 'twould be a crime to have just one) to teaching that text.  For now, suffice it to say that you may want to end your semester with Watchmen after first preparing your class for the task of reading texts within a multitude of critical apparatus. 

I would add to the lists above a graphic novel that my wife introduced to me:

Persepolis: The Story of a Childhood by Marjane Satrapi

This autobiographical graphic novel (or autobiographic novel?) tells the story of a young Satrapi as she lives through the excitement and the perils of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979.  If you choose to teach Fun Home, I would say leave this novel off the list, as Bechdel's work will give you an equally good (though culturally different) opportunity to explore the intersection of various genres, including (women's) autobiography, Bildungsroman, and the graphic novel.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Whirled Braker

[lugaru]

Persepolis: The Story of a Childhood by Marjane Satrapi

This autobiographical graphic novel (or autobiographic novel?) tells the story of a young Satrapi as she lives through the excitement and the perils of the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979.  If you choose to teach Fun Home, I would say leave this novel off the list, as Bechdel's work will give you an equally good (though culturally different) opportunity to explore the intersection of various genres, including (women's) autobiography, Bildungsroman, and the graphic novel.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Whirled Braker

So funny you say that, I was gonna list Persepolis but left it out since I put in Fun Home. Truth be told the two books are extremely different but kind of fall within the same category as mentioned. I find Persepolis to be much more compelling (the time and place is incredibly interesting) but Funhome is more accomplished.

[Amazo Version 2.2]

if you could find them in graphic novel form: the original squadrom supreme from marvel comics, really a good story about how heroism can go to far. and dc's the golden age, another story of how heroes want/need to fit in, as well as how the power can corrupt.

[Stephy Grayson]

Where I can sign up for the class?
If you want to show some of the greek mythology influence in the comics you could use "WONDER WOMAN: HIKETEIA ". It's an story that shows ancient greek costumes and how they clash with our modern day values. It shows how the Erinyes (furies to the romans) try to punish someone who asked for asylum to Wonder Woman.
I don't know if already read Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces", but he analyzes the classic heroic mythology and how it influences modern heroic literature.

[Glitch Girl]

Just because, I'd like to throw "Transmetropolitan" into the mix as well.  It's  Warren Ellis' take on the near future, politics, racism, consumerism, and gonzo journalism and is one helluva read.  

You're going to have to promise to keep us posted on how the class goes Benton.

[Reepicheep]

has anyone mentioned We3 by author Grant Morrison and artist Frank Quitely?


You'll have to share class notes with us, if you're allowed.

I back up Stephy on Joseph Campbell's book. Everything to do with novels and storytelling can take something from it.

[Cyber Burn]

Where I can sign up for the class?

Me too!!!

The fact that you have put so much thought into this makes me think you'll do just fine. Best of luck Benton.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

The fact that you have put so much thought into this makes me think you'll do just fine.

'Tis true: he will.  Every semester, I intentionally teach something I've never taught before, just to experience that intensely instructive thrill of aleatory cooperative learning with the students.  'Twill be a great learning experience for Benton and his class.

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and Whirled Braker

[BentonGrey]

I knew I could count on y'all for a lot of excellent thoughts and feedback.  Thanks for all the responses and suggestions guys!  I've gotten a vaguely positive preliminary response from my boss; so far so good!  He said he found the concept interesting, and he suggested that we talk about it.  Here's hoping that the powers that be will get on board.

As for the embarassment of riches I have from y'all's posts here, they've been really helpful.  Let me make a few points, then I'll respond to a couple of posts specifically.

The first thing I should emphasize is that I'm more and more struck with just how gigantic a topic this can be.  Just look at the variety of suggestions y'all have put forward, and these cover only a few possibilities!  I figure that there are a number of different approaches I could use in teaching a course on graphic novels.  The first, and perhaps most common, is to provide a survey of the "best" examples of what can be accomplished in the format.  As most of the works usually held up as examples of the "best" are not necessarily my cup of tea, the fact that this course will have to serve as an intro to comics AND literary theory, and, more importantly, that I'd rather there be a stronger uniting principle behind the readings, I'm lead to another approach. 

The other obvious choice is to chose texts that are linked chronologically or thematically.  The driving force behind my scholarly pursuits latley has been the the evolution/devolution of the idea of heroism and heroes.  I feel like there is are a great number of other ideas and issues tied up in the shifts in a culture's heroic ideals, and, in many ways, the archetypes that a society reveres as heroic define it.  Thus, I'm leaning heavily toward using such a concept as the unifying principle between my class texts.  What's more, such an approach also lends itself to a sampling that is chronologically linked as well, and since I am a firm believer of the importance of context in critical consumption of literature, that suits me just fine. 

GG, I've actually received other recommendations for Eisner's non-Spirit work.  Do y'all have any specific titles that i should check out?  I'm not familiar with any myself.  I've considered Sandman a bit.  Those stories are really amazing, and I'd love to find a fit for them.  I'm worried that it's almost too large of a bite to chew, since so many things do entertwine.  Yeah, "God Loves: Man Kills" was really fantastic.  I was actually thinking that I'd like to bring in some part of Claremont's run, and that might be a good choice.  Also, I've received numerous recommendations for "Understanding Comics."  I've read part of it, and I agree it would serve as a good background/supplemental text.

Thanks Hoss!  I've actually never read that one.  I'll have to check it out.  I've heard all about it, but I've never tracked it down.

Thalaw, yeah, I completely agree.  I have a way too much that I want to do, and far too many of those desires seem mutally contradictory.  I really want to include a cross section of at least one character's chronological develompent, so I was thinking that I'd include at least one Golden and Silver age Batman story, then Dark Knight Returns, then Year One, and perhaps even Batman Begins.  However, I also really want to give these kids an understanding of the development of heroic fiction itself, so I would love to include a Doc Savage novel or the like to provide a foundation with the pulps.  I imagine I'll likely have to end up relying on an outside source like McCloud's book to provide that type of perspective.

Alright folks, class is starting shortly, so expect part two of my post this evening!

[daglob]

You do realize that all of Marvel's continued stories in the '60s (which I hated due to inconsistient distribution) could be considered graphic novels? I don't mean the ones with continued plot lines, I mean whole multi-issued continued stories, like the first appearence of The Inhumans, or The Coming of Galactus.

[Figure Fan]

Benton, this is awesome.

Do you have a plan for how many works you're going to focus on over the course of the semester? I'm assuming your semester is 14-15 weeks in total (potentially 16 with the last week being for final exams). As ow_tiobe_sb said, Watchmen is obviously a good choice as it covers a lot of ground. I like your idea of covering the changes in Batman's portrayal since his creation. I also like GG's suggestion of Transmetropolitan since it deals with a lot of emergent societal changes and a different kind of heroism. God Loves, Man Kills is a good choice to represent the core struggles of the X-Men, as it pits different ideologies and "heroic perspectives" against one another. It's also a concise read that's cinematic in its presentation.

Like the others, I hope you can share your finished syllabus with us.

[detourne_me]

Since I think you're heavily leaning towards a chronological progresion may I recommend starting with shorter standalone stories that you can put into a reading pack...things that are black and white and could be photocopied properly... maybe some Charley's War, Early Joe Kubert stuff, etc.
Cripes, there is just too much good stuff out there for one class...
I think Panther's Rage is considered the first superhero multi-issue story arc - and it stars Black Panther the first black superhero.  but just quickly looking online it's only collected in a hardcover for $50

[Mr. Hamrick]

I knew I could count on y'all for a lot of excellent thoughts and feedback.  Thanks for all the responses and suggestions guys!  I've gotten a vaguely positive preliminary response from my boss; so far so good!  He said he found the concept interesting, and he suggested that we talk about it.  Here's hoping that the powers that be will get on board.

As for the embarassment of riches I have from y'all's posts here, they've been really helpful.  Let me make a few points, then I'll respond to a couple of posts specifically.

The first thing I should emphasize is that I'm more and more struck with just how gigantic a topic this can be.  Just look at the variety of suggestions y'all have put forward, and these cover only a few possibilities!  I figure that there are a number of different approaches I could use in teaching a course on graphic novels.  The first, and perhaps most common, is to provide a survey of the "best" examples of what can be accomplished in the format.  As most of the works usually held up as examples of the "best" are not necessarily my cup of tea, the fact that this course will have to serve as an intro to comics AND literary theory, and, more importantly, that I'd rather there be a stronger uniting principle behind the readings, I'm lead to another approach.  

The other obvious choice is to chose texts that are linked chronologically or thematically.  The driving force behind my scholarly pursuits latley has been the the evolution/devolution of the idea of heroism and heroes.  I feel like there is are a great number of other ideas and issues tied up in the shifts in a culture's heroic ideals, and, in many ways, the archetypes that a society reveres as heroic define it.  Thus, I'm leaning heavily toward using such a concept as the unifying principle between my class texts.  What's more, such an approach also lends itself to a sampling that is chronologically linked as well, and since I am a firm believer of the importance of context in critical consumption of literature, that suits me just fine.  

GG, I've actually received other recommendations for Eisner's non-Spirit work.  Do y'all have any specific titles that i should check out?  I'm not familiar with any myself.  I've considered Sandman a bit.  Those stories are really amazing, and I'd love to find a fit for them.  I'm worried that it's almost too large of a bite to chew, since so many things do entertwine.  Yeah, "God Loves: Man Kills" was really fantastic.  I was actually thinking that I'd like to bring in some part of Claremont's run, and that might be a good choice.  Also, I've received numerous recommendations for "Understanding Comics."  I've read part of it, and I agree it would serve as a good background/supplemental text.

Thanks Hoss!  I've actually never read that one.  I'll have to check it out.  I've heard all about it, but I've never tracked it down.

Thalaw, yeah, I completely agree.  I have a way too much that I want to do, and far too many of those desires seem mutally contradictory.  I really want to include a cross section of at least one character's chronological develompent, so I was thinking that I'd include at least one Golden and Silver age Batman story, then Dark Knight Returns, then Year One, and perhaps even Batman Begins.  However, I also really want to give these kids an understanding of the development of heroic fiction itself, so I would love to include a Doc Savage novel or the like to provide a foundation with the pulps.  I imagine I'll likely have to end up relying on an outside source like McCloud's book to provide that type of perspective.

Alright folks, class is starting shortly, so expect part two of my post this evening!

I actually did a whole class in college on JUST the Sandman graphic novels.  It was an elective class that I designed with the help of a professor designed around the theme of "Comic Books as Literature".  The professor was a former sci-fi author himself so he jumped right into the idea with both feet.

While there is an overarching story for most of the series (and most of the graphic novels), there are themes addressed in each graphic novel that you might can utilize.  I strongly suggest "At World's End" (believe that it the one) because of the Chaucer like structure to the thing.  "A Game of You" also might work well as it departs somewhat from the overall narrative and focuses on events surrounding two secondary characters.  The themes in it involve identity and various gender related themes.

If you are going with intro to Literary Theme, then you best may be "Dream Country" for a few reasons.
1) Contains "A Midsummer Night's Dream" which is a version of the Shakespeare play put in a different light.  It is also one of the most acclaimed stories of the series.
2) Contains "Calliope" and the copy I have of the graphic novel contains the script for "Calliope" too which would be an excellent reference.
3) The stories there are stand along tales and don't connect to the overall story of the series.
4) Contains "Facade" which deals with Element Girl and Death.  There are some themes to that might evoke some interesting discussions as well.  (The idea of assisted suicide and other things.)

Might want to go with "Death: The High Cost of Living" or "Death: The Time of Your Life" as well

As for Eisner stuff... CONTRACT WITH GOD is a must.

I'd also maybe opt for the first "Strangers in Paradise" graphic novel, too.  Not only are there some serious themes there but it's also a title that merits the statement "Comics aren't just for boys."  The same has been said about "A Game of You" from the Sandman series.

Transmetropolitan might be interesting to do but would need to be done carefully.

The Crow might be a possibility.  Moreso because of the way it was adopted into certain social subculture in the 1990s than the book itself.

[BentonGrey]

Alright folks, I've finally made it home, and I came home bearing some new reading for the next few weeks.  A colleague of mine has been helping me brainstorm.  He was kind enough to go to the library and grab me a cross section of stuff that he felt was worth a look.  I'm really glad he did so, as my reading tends to be pretty limited, and although I want to focus on some specific ideas and themes, I don't want to give my students only my perspective and tastes in terms of texts.  One concern I had is that pretty much everything I really love and am familiar with (in terms of seminal graphic novels) has white male protagonists.  I want the heroic sampling to be more diverse, although what I know and love is obviously going to form a majority of the readings.  It is my class, after all.   Anyway, this fellow sent me home with: Swallow Me Whole, Buddha (which offers interesting possibilities), Hamlet, Nausicaa vol. I, and Mirror Mask.

Anyway, let me continue the responses:

Tommy, I have indeed considered the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run...but it's just so bad.   Ha, those stories are sort of painful for me to read since they just smash you over the head with the blunt end of the issue they're trying to address.  Still, they represent a REALLY important step in comic development.  If I had unlimited time, I would definitely have my class at least read the issue with Speedy's drug use.  However, considering how much there is to cover and how little time I have...ahhh, it's a harder choice to make.  I'm not familiar with the equivalent titles from the Marvel side.  What's there to choose from?

JJ, thanks, those are some great suggestions for a look at Superman.  I was actually thinking that I might do something with Alex Ross's four character "Superheroes" book.  It has some really interesting takes on four iconic characters, and the Superman story is a pretty strong one.  You're right about Justice, and there are certainly books that much more richly deserve a place on the list.  I was considering it because it illustrates the enduring nature of the older stories and ideas and the influence of fans turned creators in modern comics.

Murs, maybe so, but who says I'm doing this for my students?   Seriously though, I'd rather stick with what I have at least a grounding in, and superheroics or pulp characters are it.  Drama comics haven't ever interested me, and other than the high profile titles, I don't know much about them.  I've considered bringing in some comic adaptations of literature, but the question arises of how to tie everything together. 

Daglob, something a colleague and I have been discussing is that art majors and the like would likely be a lot more willing to take a graphic novel as literature course rather than a traditional lit class. 

DM, price is something that I am very much aware of.  It's something that I'm trying to keep in mind as I make up my list, and it isn't just time that puts a cap on the number of texts!  I read Maus during my own undergraduate career.  It's a brilliant story, but I have no desire to ever read it again.  It's one of the highest profile example of the storytelling power of graphic novels, but I don't think it fits into what I want to do here.  Sin City though....well, I'm tempted.

Lu, I haven't read most of the stories in your list, but I will keep these in mind.  Several of them sound really fascinating...of course, several of them also sound like the type of comics I like to avoid.   I'm trying to stretch my reading in preparation for this class, though.  Thanks for taking the time to tell me so much about these, man.  The more I read what y'all have said about Sandman, and the more I remember how very brilliant it was....the more I'm tempted to try and shoehorn it in someplace.....

GM, most of y'all know that I abhor anime and manga on general principle, but I'm actually making an effort to find a manga title to add to the text list in hopes of being relatively thorough and appealing to a wider audience of students.  See my comment above about what I brought home with me today.  I'll see if I can't track some of those down through the library.

PG, I don't think I could bear to include something that I didn't have a great deal of love or at least a great deal of respect (as in Watchmen) for when there are so many amazing stories out there that I WON'T be able to touch on.

Tiobe, I was looking forward to your comments!  I would love to see anything you'd be willing to share along those lines.  Yeah, Watchmen could easily support a semester's worth of reading and study by itself, but I couldn't bring myself to tackle it by alone.  I don't really like Watchmen, much less love it like I do many of the rest of these stories.  Like Kafka, it's important because it says something brilliant, says it first , and says it best, but what it has to say, though being an amazing reflection, dissection, and critique of culture and the heroic ideal itself, is something that my soul rebels against.  Thus, the advent of a series like Astro City, which posits a similar world, yet finds much more about which to be hopeful, seems to me to be a step closer to something important, skill aside.  It's for that reason that I would like to deal with at least a book or two AFTER I deal with Watchmen, although the complexity and length of the book make that very, very difficult.  Thanks for the suggestion of Persepolis.  That is one I hadn't heard of before!

Amazo, I've read a few of those.  I wonder if they've been collected anywhere.

Stephy, I'm a huge fan of archetypalism, but I'm more familiar with Frye than Campbell.  As far as I'm concerned, archetypalism is the most useful and instructive approach to literature we've come up with so far....little surprise that the theory that resonates most with me is fifty years out of date....

GG, with respect to you and others who have suggested Transmetropolitan, I'm afraid that isn't something I'm really interested in.  There are a lot of people here on FR who like Ellis' work, and he obviously has a large following in the wider world, but I'm afraid I'm not numbered among his fans.  Without treading unnecessarily into contentious territory, I don't have much respect or appreciation for his writing, though he is obviously a very talented fellow.  Yes, I will definitely keep y'all posted!  Thank you for the good wishes and the suggestion.

Reep, I'll definitely share!

CB, thanks!

Daglob, I suppose you're right.  I definitely intend to play fast and loose with the term "graphic novel" where it will suit me.  Those early Marvel stories are fantastic, and I would love to bring some of them in, but I feel like I could only really justify spending a small amount of time around that period, and it might be better used by something like an early story of a character for whom I have later stuff with which to make comparisons.

Thanks FF!  I'm not entirely sure how many I want, but I don't think I could manage more than 6 if I'm including Watchmen, and even that might be pushing it.  Tiobe, thoughts on that?

DM, I KNOW!  That's what's killing me!  There are just a zillion choices that would be awesome.

Hamrick, thanks for the suggestions, especially the more detailed thoughts on Sandman!  I'll try to check some of those out. 


Once again guys, thanks for all these responses.  There is a lot of great stuff here!

[John Jr.]

If you want to concentrate in the changes in the moral standings of the super-heroes (and don't mind reading something you know you'll hate with passion) you should give a look in "Infinite Crisis" and "Civil War". Both makes parallels between "old" an "new" school heroes. They show a very partial and one-sided look, but they show how the ideal of what is a super-hero has changed. 

[Podmark]

If you want to concentrate in the changes in the moral standings of the super-heroes (and don't mind reading something you know you'll hate with passion) you should give a look in "Infinite Crisis" and "Civil War". Both makes parallels between "old" an "new" school heroes. They show a very partial and one-sided look, but they show how the ideal of what is a super-hero has changed. 

If you wanted to go that route, you might try Ultimates as well. Kinda fits with your devolution of heroics theme.
Interesting class, I always wanted to take something like this when I was in University.

[lugaru]

If you wanted to go that route, you might try Ultimates as well. Kinda fits with your devolution of heroics theme.
Interesting class, I always wanted to take something like this when I was in University.

I agree about the first two volumes of Ultimates. What is funny is that Benton and I fall on almost opposite spectrums of the scale when it comes to the concept of morality in comics. In other words I would be just as annoyed as anyone would if Superman suddenly killed somebody in a cynical ploy to make him "hip", but that said I love anti-heroes. I love realistic moments of cowardice and moral lapses that are in character. It gives heroes something to overcome and villains a more "real world" feel.

That is why I really want to suggest the DARK AVENGERS run. It takes all the lessons learned from Thunderbolts and boils it down into a literal group of villains who are honestly trying to protect the world, in super misguided ways. If golden age heroes who have a laugh at the end of the story and talk about the lesson they learned is on one end of the spectrum, this group of miscreants is on the other. You have Norman Osbourne slowly going mad while he tries to keep people like Bullseye, Venom and Dakken behaving like heroes. Fights break out, manipulative affairs are common and Venom is put a ton of anti-psychotic medications.

I think it would make a nice book end to your argument of mutation of heroes in printed media, without being as extreme as "the boys". 

[Panther_Gunn]

PG, I don't think I could bear to include something that I didn't have a great deal of love or at least a great deal of respect (as in Watchmen) for when there are so many amazing stories out there that I WON'T be able to touch on.

Since there are so many things that you will want to include, but can't due to time (and other) constraints, perhaps you could give the class a list of "Suggested further reading", for those interested in exploring beyond what is covered in the class.  As list of bad examples could easily fit at the bottom of that.