DC Comics Reboot

[HarryTrotter]

Well,at least we can say sloppy editing has been a constant for the last 35-40 years.

[HarryTrotter]

After Veitch left in a middle of the arc,DC handed the title to their cantina worker(or so the legend goes) Doug Wheeler.Results soon followed.
Bad jokes aside,I know Wheeler had big shoes to fill and little time to prepare,but his Swamp thing is just boring.A lot of people in the letter pages share that opinion.

[HarryTrotter]

After Wheeler,Nancy Collins takes over.And she focused more on the setting and local legends and locals in general.You could say the focus is less on Swamp Thing and more on Swamp People.
I apologize...

[detourne_me]

So i heard Jeff Lemire is going to do a Fantastic Four styled book at DC called "The Terrifics" with Mr. Terrific, Phantom Girl, Metamorpho, and Plastic Man.  This is nearly my dream book. The only thing that could make it better would be Mike Allred on art, and a third arc with the New Gods. First two being earth based adventures.

[kkhohoho]

So i heard Jeff Lemire is going to do a Fantastic Four styled book at DC called "The Terrifics" with Mr. Terrific, Phantom Girl, Metamorpho, and Plastic Man.  This is nearly my dream book. The only thing that could make it better would be Mike Allred on art, and a third arc with the New Gods. First two being earth based adventures.

Sounds awesome.

And I can bet you it's only going to last 12 issues. If that.

[HarryTrotter]

http://atomicjunkshop.com/6772-2/
While looking at some SDCC news I found this interesting opinion piece.Interesting because it parrots every other opinion piece.
Okay,there are some good points about DC and its leadership.But singling out Marvel as doing so great and Axel Alonso as an editor exemplar is a bit...whats the word here...fanboyish,pants-on-head retarded.

[Silver Shocker]

So I was going to respond with a very general commentary at first, then decided to check the link first and I'm a bit confused.

Is the article you linked to the one where they mention Alonso? And it's not been edited or swapped out with newer article or anything? Because I didn't see a reference to Alonso, just a reference to Bob Harras being the EIC in the late 90's during the comic crash.

Honestly, if this is the article you're talking about, then the only thing it mentions is that Marvel has some books that are selling well through digital. Which doesn't sound like an unreasonable point to make to me.

[HarryTrotter]

Weird,it was tuned since last time I checked.And its an odd position these days if I find myself defending DC.
Still,a few things:

Representatives from DC Comics say that the comics industry is on the verge of collapse.
I say that's Pure Unvarnished Bunkum.
Sales on individual titles are dropping, but sales overall are up. Basically, companies are selling fewer copies of, say, Green Arrow, but, overall, including digital sales and trade paperback sales (neither of which figure into DC's sales figures), more comics are being sold.

Maybe because there are now a lot more titles then there used to be,say 20 years ago?Does that really show how healthy the industry is?

Marvel's successes are coming in things like Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur and Black Panther (both of which are performing poorly in direct market sales, but are selling in extremely high numbers through Marvel's digital service) and Unbeatable Squirrel Girl rather than in high-profile 'events' like Secret Empire.

I would like to see some numbers on those digital sales for once.IIRC All-Star Batman and Flash did outsell Secret Empire,but I dont remember anything about Squirrel girl.

DC's current marketing strategy is to reboot everything and start from scratch. In the 3 decades since 1986, they've done it almost a dozen times.
They paint themselves into a corner, then burn the corner (and indeed, the whole house) down and start building anew using the same materials in slightly different configurations.

Okay,hard to argue with that one.

How about taking those creators and letting them bring in new perspectives and new ideas to familiar comics, just like British creators like Moore, Gaiman, Ellis, Ennis, Milligan and Morrison did?

1)Because those British creators didn't magically spring into existence.Before JLA,Morrison had Zenith,Animal Man,Doom Patrol.If somebody with that kinda credentials shows up,Im sure he/she would get the job.
2)Simply,hiring new people is always a risk.If you traffic in nostalgia even more so.

As Marvel Editor-in-Chief, Joe Quesada once said, "...they have Batman and Superman, and they don't know what to do with them."

Well,people in glass houses sink ships,Quesada.

[Silver Shocker]

So they really did edit the article? What did they originally say about Alonso?

Yeah, about Moon Girl. Someone told me recently "it sells really well", but now I'm curious how one would know that if it only sells well in digital but we never get to see the figures for digital. And here's the thing about the sales numbers.....Marvel lies their butts off about them. I don't know if this is still the case, but they used to vehemently deny the accuracy of sales numbers that 1. Were supplied by Marvel themselves. and 2. They were legally required to provide.

[HarryTrotter]

There was a shorter  observation about Alonso unified vision(or something along those lines) near the passage about digital sales.Apparently,he knows what hes doing.
Oh,and meanwhile:
https://www.newsarama.com/35592-superman-year-one-by-frank-miller-john-romita-jr.html
Does Superman's origin story really needs to be retold?Again?By Frank Miller? 

[BentonGrey]

They paint themselves into a corner, then burn the corner (and indeed, the whole house) down and start building anew using the same materials in slightly different configurations.

That's an excellent description of their process.    It's hard to end up anywhere different when you never actually change anything you do.

[HarryTrotter]

To be fair,if we learned anything so far its that comic readers hate changes.So its a no-win situation either way.

[BentonGrey]

And yet, they are in a state of perpetual change, constantly reinventing the wheel and flipping over the table every other month, never establishing, much less enjoying, a status quo.  Their desperation to generate sales has them constantly alienating somebody.

[kkhohoho]

And yet, they are in a state of perpetual change, constantly reinventing the wheel and flipping over the table every other month, never establishing, much less enjoying, a status quo.  Their desperation to generate sales has them constantly alienating somebody.

And when they're not flipping over the status quo, they're making a status quo (or at least a temporary one,) that appeals to no-one but those who came up with it.  It's the same with Marvel. I'm assuming everyone knows about Captain Nazi?

[daglob]

You mean the old Captain Marvel Jr. Villain?

(Unfortunately, I know what you mean )

[BentonGrey]

Right Kk, and that is usually the result of a "bold new direction" that no-one asked for, like the recent Cullen Bunn run on Aquaman.

[HarryTrotter]

And yet, they are in a state of perpetual change, constantly reinventing the wheel and flipping over the table every other month, never establishing, much less enjoying, a status quo.  Their desperation to generate sales has them constantly alienating somebody.

Again,hard to argue with that.Yet for all the bold new directions,they are still fond of revisiting 30+ year old stories.
Tom Kings Fourth World,really?

[BentonGrey]

Well, it's all terribly incestuous these days, isn't it?  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to restart their universe, but keep all the history so they can reference things obliquely instead of actually telling stories, trusting in a comic-savvy audience to pick up on their references and follow along, despite the fact that it makes no sense in the world they've created.  Everything started over, except everything also has a big past full of classic stories that have now never been told.  The Flash already has a bunchy of villains.  The JLA has already gone through multiple permutations and fought multiple villains, and everyone is already well into their careers.  It's a terribly slovenly way to tell stories.

[kkhohoho]

Well, it's all terribly incestuous these days, isn't it?  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to restart their universe, but keep all the history so they can reference things obliquely instead of actually telling stories, trusting in a comic-savvy audience to pick up on their references and follow along, despite the fact that it makes no sense in the world they've created.  Everything started over, except everything also has a big past full of classic stories that have now never been told.  The Flash already has a bunchy of villains.  The JLA has already gone through multiple permutations and fought multiple villains, and everyone is already well into their careers.  It's a terribly slovenly way to tell stories.

That's my biggest problem with soft-reboots. Regardless of the actual quality of the stories therein, you're still at a point where everything is supposed to have already happened, except it didn.'t They try and build up some sort of imagined universe as if it had been around all this time, but it hasn't really, so we don't actually get to see most of what's happened, which makes it hard to form any sort of real connection with what's going on. And they still try to keep the really popular and 'important' bits of the old universe even though everything around these bits is no longer the same. Archie did the same thing with its' Sonic comics, (which are amazing by the way,) and while the actual Postboot stories themselves are enjoyable, it's still more or less the same feeling as the Nu52 and Rebirth. To be fair, the main writer (Ian Flynn) actually wanted to a hard reboot proper, but the higher ups just wouldn't let him, so he had to resort to a soft boot. Now that the comic's switched hands to IDW though, it seems like they're doing a hard reboot after all while still keeping Flynn on board, which is really what they should have done in the first place. So at least Sonic's getting a chance to do it right, which is more than I can say for DC.

[HarryTrotter]

Well, it's all terribly incestuous these days, isn't it?  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to restart their universe, but keep all the history so they can reference things obliquely...

Like that time Forever Evil confirmed all the Silver Age stories happened?Apparently between pages of JL.Oddly I still use the term JLA,despite the "A" part being dropped years ago.
Now,I still think Rebirth was a good thing,but here is the problem-it was a year ago.How long can they ride the wave of excitment from Rebirth?And how long can they avoid answering the questions raised there?Mister Oz and all that?

[HarryTrotter]

Too late to complain,but after rereading No Mans Land Im pretty sure this is the event to blame for all the events that followed.From a premise that doesnt make sense to pointless death of a supporting character,it sets a template that will be followed for years to come.At least we got Cassandra as Batgirl so it wasnt all that bad.
Join me next time as we relive Fall of Green Arrow.(jk,no chance of that)

[detourne_me]

Did anyone else read Mister Miracle #1 by Tom King?
I liked it,  reminded me a little of Lemire's Moon Knight, as is seems like both a deconstruction of the character and a celebration of their past.
Looking forward to seeing where it goes.

[BentonGrey]

I've heard good things about it, but it would have to be pretty amazing to make me pick up a modern DC book.

[Silver Shocker]

I've been reading the newest volume of the Ostrander Suicide Squad reprints....I'd forgotten what a great book this is. A good chunk of this volume is devoted to the proper introduction of Oracle (she'd been teased several times earlier in the run), though I haven't gotten that far yet.

Spoiler

Deadshot is hired by a villain from earlier in the run to assassinate Waller. Waller gets him to switch sides by matching his offer....plus 1 dollar more. Awesome!!! 

[kkhohoho]

I've been reading the newest volume of the Ostrander Suicide Squad reprints....I'd forgotten what a great book this is. A good chunk of this volume is devoted to the proper introduction of Oracle (she'd been teased several times earlier in the run), though I haven't gotten that far yet.

Spoiler

Deadshot is hired by a villain from earlier in the run to assassinate Waller. Waller gets him to switch sides by matching his offer....plus 1 dollar more. Awesome!!! 

I've started reading the reprints myself. It starts off a bit slow, (did we really need that Secret Origins issue right at the start,) but once you get to the actual first issue, it's amazing. It's one of those rare books that thrived in the Dark Age of comics rather than suffering from it, mainly because it's a book that should be dark. Ostrander hit it out of the ballpark here is, as he tends to do, and it's really something everyone should check out.

That said, has anyone read the Nu52 and Rebirth stuff? How does that stack up to Ostrander's run, if you don't mind me asking?

[HarryTrotter]

Im probably in minority there,but I liked N52 Suicide Squad.It wasn't genre bending,but it was okay in a sort of action movie sense.I didnt care much for New Suicide Squad however.It went a bit too big with the villains.Deathstroke,Harley,Reverse Flash,Black Manta.Come on,we know none of them are going to die here.
See the previous few pages for Rebirth version,thou I fell behind on it,a lot.
Oh and apparently,Hawkworld collection isnt happening.That is,the miniseries is collected,the ongoing most probably wont be.

It's one of those rare books that thrived in the Dark Age of comics rather than suffering from it

When you think about,quite a few at DC.Aforementioned Hawkworld,Wasteland,Spectre(notice a theme here?),Grells Green Arrow,or a personal favorite---Hitman.

[Silver Shocker]

I've started reading the reprints myself. It starts off a bit slow, (did we really need that Secret Origins issue right at the start,) but once you get to the actual first issue, it's amazing.

Yeah, that Secret Origins issue was kind of hard to get through. I would say it needs to be there though, just because stuff that's established in it comes up later in the run.

That said, has anyone read the Nu52 and Rebirth stuff? How does that stack up to Ostrander's run, if you don't mind me asking?

I read the first few issues of the Nu52 series and dropped off after that. It was...ok. Like Spade said, it's kinda an action movie. The art could have been better.

I'll definitely be reading more in the future. I bought pretty much all of it during Comixology sales and I'm going to get a reprint of Justice League vs. Suicide Squad at some point in the future so I'll read the stuff leading up to it first.

Im probably in minority there,but I liked N52 Suicide Squad.It wasn't genre bending,but it was okay in a sort of action movie sense.I didnt care much for New Suicide Squad however.It went a bit too big with the villains.Deathstroke,Harley,Reverse Flash,Black Manta.Come on,we know none of them are going to die here.

Yeah, that's kinda an important part of Suicide Squad. A sense that anyone could die. Filling up the book with more high-profile characters might help sell the book, but it does undercut that theme.

When you think about,quite a few at DC.Aforementioned Hawkworld,Wasteland,Spectre(notice a theme here?),Grells Green Arrow,or a personal favorite---Hitman.

Yeah, as you and I discussed a while back on this forum, the Ostrander/Mandrake Spectre run was a pretty sweet book.

[HarryTrotter]

We did,but its worth mentioning again.
What a lot of said titles benefited from was realism.Not in the popular sense of realistic= everyone is a dick and gallons of blood are spilled.But they showed a realistic setting and realistic problems that also plagued our world.Hawks were police officers(Hawk street Blues,anyone?),Green Arrow fought serial killers and terrorists,and Spectre got involved into a standoff between not-Black Panthers and Jewish Defense League.A tough guy from the 30's tries to get used to the modern world,an alien policeman tries to figure out differences in laws and rights between Earth and Thanagar(spoiler,its not that different),and and aging vigilante stalks the urban jungle while also figuring out the career robbed him of family and pretty much any chance of happiness.Hey,nobody said its an easy read.
On the other hand,in the late 80's Shadow started dual wielding Uzis,which proves that a realistic rework isn't for everyone.

[Silver Shocker]

Yeah, Ostrander's Suicide Squad was firmly entrenched in Cold War cloak and dagger/black ops skullduggery, Something that, from what I've seen, the newer iterations of the property haven't really done. I'm not really sure if there's a specific reason for that. I might be because they guest starred in Justice League Unlimited, Arrow and the Batman Arkham series before being a DC mainstay with it's own comics and feature film, it might be because tying into the more superhero stuff helps sales, it might to minimize possible controversy by using real life politics and nations, it might be a combination.

I don't think I read that part of Spectre (I don't think I got terribly far in the series, maybe the first 5-10 issues? enough to know it was a really good book). But I remember the book being very thoughtful and philosophical, and not in the overly-flowery purple prose way comics have had a bad reputation for (though to be honest I have a soft spot for that kind of older writing style, since it's not used as must these days).

The Shadow also had a robot suit in the 90's because of course he did. As for duel-wielding Uzis, I'm not exactly an expert on the Shadow, but isn't he supposed to be pretty violent towards criminals? So using guns might not be that out of place for him.

[HarryTrotter]

The Shadow also had a robot suit in the 90's because of course he did. As for duel-wielding Uzis, I'm not exactly an expert on the Shadow, but isn't he supposed to be pretty violent towards criminals? So using guns might not be that out of place for him.

Im not even surprised.Im not an expert on The Shadow either*,but the decision to transport him from 30's** to 80's is really weird.Problem isn't really with Uzis,but rather that its weird to rob the character of his setting.Its like if you transport Conan to modern times,or if Batman moved to San Diego.And ofc,this is Chaykin.***
TL;DR version-that series didn't age well.


_{*I like the visuals and ideas of the character,but I really only read a few comics.And seen the movie,but that was a long time ago.
**It shares that theme with Spectre,oddly enough.
***Over the top violence,personal fetishes and scratchy artwork all included.}