Everybody's Favorite Mutated Reptiles Are Back in Action

[Silver Shocker]

I have read the Bebob And Rocksteady destroy everything. It was insane and fun.

Spoiler

They seemed to imply that Time Lords such as Renet and Savanti Romero are the same characters in all TMNT iterations....which would be an interesting idea, except if memory serves, neither character acts that way in any prior appearances in the franchise. I would write it off as me reading too much into it, but they made a point of having the comic open with Savanti fighting the original Mirage comics TMNT, red bandannas and all.

In other Turtles news:

There's a crossover between the Nicktoons Animated TMNT and Batman TAS. Pretty neat idea.

[HarryTrotter]

First issue of Batman/TMNT adventures was okay.Thou,Im not sure why they chose BTAS,its unlikely that kids watching 2012 turtles are familiar with it.Also,"Yo,mama" jokes?Again?

[SickAlice]

Book is still my most looked forward to every month. I'm also 100% addicted to the new IDW Hasbro line (Revolution) which says a lot for a line that just kicked in. Even that Rom book is great!

[BentonGrey]

I just got a big batch of comics in the mail, and I can't wait to read the TMNT books!  I'm way behind!

Also, I have GOT to get my hands on that Bebop and Rocksteady series!

[oldmanwinters]

I definitely recommend experiencing the Bebop & Rocksteady Destroy Everything mini-series in TPB format!  It's the kind of story that will have you scratching your head and flipping back and forth through the pages. 

Plus, it also borrows from classic Mirage TMNT comic canon in a surprising way!

[HarryTrotter]

So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

[kkhohoho]

So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

Aren't the Turtles themselves more or less Superheroes when you get down to it?

[Silver Shocker]

I definitely recommend experiencing the Bebop & Rocksteady Destroy Everything mini-series in TPB format!  It's the kind of story that will have you scratching your head and flipping back and forth through the pages. 

I would definitely second that.  I certainly felt that way reading it. It's fun (how can it not be with that title and premise?) but it's the kind of story I'd rather not scrutinize because (a) it takes the fun out of it and fun is definitely what they were going for and b) I'm not entirely convinced the time travel elements make sense.

So we got Wyrm.Okay.
Btw,one thing I noticed IDW continuity does different then all the others is: No Superheroes.And honestly,its all the better for it.

Aren't the Turtles themselves more or less Superheroes when you get down to it?

Yeah, I've thought of the TMNT as superheroes as least since the 2003 series. Also, I'd say Nobody counts as a superhero. wears a costume, fights crime, has a superhero name.

Personally I really enjoyed the superhero stuff in the 2k3 series so I honestly wouldn't mind if IDW did more with them. Considering their run draws from the mirage comics, 87 cartoon and aforementioned 2k3 cartoon so heavily (I've even found at least one reference to the Nicktoons show) not drawing from that well seems a bit odd an omission. On the other hand, the plots of the IDW are so corset-tight that adding in superhero characters and not having them show up for every major conflict ever would immediately draw attention to it. As much as I enjoyed how the 2K3 series drew from that extended cast when appropriate, there was a heavy sense of "If x, why aren't the Justice Force doing y?" What would you call the JF's appearance during the Triceraton invasion , if not jobbing so the Turtles can save the day?

[HarryTrotter]

Depends on the continuity.Mirage Turtles are a ninja clan first,they just happen to know a lot of superheroes.They dont go on patrols or rescue the city on a daily basis.Original cartoon turtles are superheroes.They are even refered to as such on several occasions.2003 and 2012 version mix the two styles.In different quantities.
Personaly,I dont mind the existence of superheroes,but it does make the Turtles less unique.And IDW already has too much characters for 2 monthly titles.

[SickAlice]

I'd say no. They aren't defined as "capes" at least and came into the industry as an independent. More "action hero" defined then "super", like one would see Link, Ash or Snake. And I agree it's better for it as well, it adds that unique flavor. Also totally happy to see the franchise succeeding to the point of spawning more titles. I'd rather read another Turtles book than another...well I'll be polite but you know where it's going. Destroy Everything was awesome BTW, delivered all that and so much more.

[BentonGrey]

They aren't necessarily superheroes, but they are superhero adjacent. 

[HarryTrotter]

The TMNT scholar Mark Pellegrini explained it best,I think. http://tmntentity.blogspot.ba/
From his reviews of Vol. 1 #15 and #52:

Eastman and Laird made it a point to illustrate that the Turtles live in a world already populated by superheroes and general comic book weirdness fairly early on, with characters like Complete Carnage and Radical, etc. Probably a good idea, as the Turtles so frequently encounter aliens, monsters, super villains and other miscellaneous insanity that there's just gotta be this sort of stuff waiting around every corner for their world to make any sense.

In a way, it makes the Turtles seem a little less unique, as how can they be freaks and outcasts in a world where robot midgets and rock-men can make lucrative licensing deals and be accepted as heroes by the general populace? It actually seems counter-intuitive to Laird's own personal insistence of reducing mutant animals in the franchise offshoots he has a hand in because it "makes the Turtles less unique". So bizarre superheroes are okay in abundance, but not mutant animals? Okay, sure, whatever.

I don't hate the presence of superheroes in Turtle comics; Nobody is a favorite recurring character of mine and I adored most of the Image series, which had a ton of superheroes in it. The issue I take with "Dome Doom" is more that it overloads the audience with the fact that "oh by the way there's a retired team of superheroes operating out of Northampton who license their likenesses out to media outlets to maintain luxurious lifestyles but nobody ever talks about them because meh". Nothing would really be done with the idea of a substantial superhero population in the Mirage TMNT universe until the Image series, and after that got retconned out of continuity, the Volume 4 series (which had several interesting ideas as well as a decent use of the Justice Force characters).

As for the Turtles, I was amused by Raph's statement that fighting street crime isn't their responsibility; that the only thing that matters to the Turtles is taking down the Foot.  It's a great spotlight on what differentiates the Mirage TMNT from their cartoon and more mainstream counterparts.  The original Mirage TMNT weren't created to be superheroes.  They don't go on patrol like Batman and fight crime.  Sure, they'll get involved if they're in close proximity to danger because they have functioning moral compasses, but they aren't "guardians" of truth and justice.  They're ninja.  They're assassins.  And they're at war with a rival ninja clan.  Any other adventures they partake in are either out of accident or boredom.

Obviously, that doesn't paint them in a very marketable light and, yeah, I don't think we've ever seen the Mirage Turtles walk away from helping someone in mortal danger.  But Raph's dialogue still underscores one of the fundamental differences between the Mirage TMNT and the, well, more marketable cartoon and kid-comic incarnations.  They're a warring ninja clan first and "superheroes" second.  If at all.

[SickAlice]

Heads up, four part Karai spotlight incoming this week!
http://comics.gocollect.com/priceguide/view/973300

[HarryTrotter]

Stump and Galactic wrestling are back.I did not expect that.
Universe harkens all the way back to Secret History of the Foot clan.I guess Koya is this universes version of the blind Foot elite with a grudge against Leo.Broadly speaking.We still dont reall know anything about Bludgeon.He looks and acts as some surfing/zen guru,I guess.

[BentonGrey]

Stump Wrestling, really?  That is too awesome!  I can't wait!

[oldmanwinters]

Stump Wrestling, really?  That is too awesome!  I can't wait!

I thought the first two issues of the Dimension X mini-series were fun but forgettable adventures.  Haven't got around to issue #3, but I will be curious to see how this whole series bridges the gap between ongoing #73-74.

[Silver Shocker]

So I just finished the new volume of the trade with Agent Bishop vs. The Mighty Mutantanimals. Oh boy was that ever a good one. There's few volumes of this run of TMNT I enjoyed as much as that.

Bishop was the man in that one. I officially declare IDW Bishop best Bishop because IDW Turtles is best Turtles. They even got a little homage into Bishop's Hong Kong style martial arts fights from the 2003 series. NICE!

On that note:

Spoiler

I really enjoyed seeing the dynamic between Bishop and his father. It added a layer of humanity to a character who's incredibly cool, but pretty hard to actually sympathize with (This is the guy who, in 2003, advocated mass murder of civilians because at least it'd kill those pesky aliens living among us) of course, the payoff is that he ruthlessly murdered his own father during a fight, because he's just a ruthless jerkbag. And he gets his to a degree, and I'll touch on that in a bit.

The reveal of him being at least part machine is a interesting one. I think of it a nice middle ground between the Nicktoon versions incredibly lazy "He's just a regular old Kraang/Utron but this one has sunglasses!" and the 2003 show's idea of a man who gained superpowers because of an alien encounter (and I wouldn't be remotely surprised if they thought up the "didn't this guy just die" moment and then made up the backstory later) but it's an interesting moment just because the characters barely react to it because it's just like "well of course he replaced his body with a robot body and/or robot parts because he's just that devoted and insane."

But on another note, and I alluded to this earlier, Am I the only one who thinks IDW TMNT is burning through some of the villains a little too fast? I know the series has built up this massive cast of characters who are always involved in the plot in some way,
and this rich, multi-layered ongoing storyline, but in the previous arc we've had Darius Dunn "Done in" and now Bishop's "disarmed". Now he didn't die, but his humbling defeat was just a little too quick for my tastes.

Speaking of that Darius Dun story, without spoilers for future arcs, am I the only one who got a "Splinter's going evil" vibe? Because that's a story I could totally see play and I'd enjoy seeing that.

On a related note, a sequel to the Batman/TMNT Crossover Scott Snyder, James Tynion and Freddie Williams did was just announced. Same creative team, Bane will be the villain. Neat.

[HarryTrotter]

Well,not everyone can be Shredder or Baxter.Some villains will only last an arc.And it invented some new villains.
Dimension X was okay,but it comes off as something of showcase for writers and artists.Sittersons(we probably wont see him again) Ace Duck issue might have been the biggest surprise.
On the subject of a lot of characters for one series,thats why we have Universe.Karai arc has been pretty cool so far,even if the yakuza family dynamics are a bit cliche.

[Silver Shocker]

Over in the "Best Comic of 2020" thread, the topic ended up moving to TMNT, so I'd opted to continue here in the proper thread.

I've started reading the first issue or so of TMNT/Power Rangers. It's quite neat, but as an iteration of the TMNT franchise, it's quite odd and unusual and very much its own thing. It's very much it's own continuity wholly separate from the main IDW comics run, similar to what the Batman/TMNT crossovers did over time, but even moreso by a lot. It throws elements from more than one prior version of TMNT into a blender and creates an odd kind of mishmash, similar to the main IDW run but somehow even more, pivoting more heavily toward late 80's/early 90s nostalgic (because of course it does, this is the Nick/Paramount era of the franchise of course  ) Not sure if I like how they've handled it but it certainly keeps things interesting. It almost feels like this book is designed PURPOSELY to be adapted into a standalone animated movie like the Batman TMNT one. On that note, I'm actually surprised they've not bothered to journey into the realm of animation with Power Rangers. You'd think that would be a no brainer and they could get mirage out of it, but I guess part of the appeal of Japanese sentai shows is supposed to be the live action stuntwork and costumes, plus the animated equivalent of a sentai show would be a mecha cartoon like Voltron. And yet, the massive nostalgia revival of this specific IP, and once again, the laser focus on the "Mighty Morphing" era (with Lord Zedd, Tommy ect) would indicate that these specific characters and designs hold a nostalgic fondness for those my age (and I'm hardly innocent in that regard myself)

Spoilers as to how this iteration of the TMNT franchise's continuity/status quo is handled:

Spoiler

April is a reporter, there's an unamed character that would seem to be Vernon, Irma is namedropped, some G1 TMNT iconography, naturally can be seen in the TMNT's lair, and naturally Donnie is trying to impress fellow geek Billy by bringing up that he has a robot of his own, Metalhead. This, by itself, seems to be a pretty overt reference to the Fred Wolfe era, as Metal Head was very much a villain on the loose in the main IDW comic run, and the 2003 cartoon iteration was an enemy robot built by Stockman called the "Turtlebot", since "Metalhead" was the name of a member of the Justice Force.

Most curious for me is how Shredder and Karai are depicted in this comic. The two of them together represent a truly unique mishmash. Karai's visual design is undeniably modelled after her design from the 2003 cartoon, with the exact same hair and wardrobe. This of course made me quite amused, was one of the first things I learned about this comic, as I saw her design on the TMNT wiki, and made me look forward to getting and reading the trade of this book. She's also loyal to the Shredder, though I don't think her particular relationship to him has been clarified yet. In both the 2003 and 2012 cartoons, she was the Shredder's adopted daughter, in the IDW comics she is his granddaughter, and in several other iterations she seems to simply be a foot ninja who is loyal to him. Rise of the TMNT, in its single best plot element IMO, had Karai appeared in the very last arc of the show as an member of Splinter and the Turtles's own Hamato clan, presented 100% as a good guy.

Shredder himself appears to largely designed to look after the version from the Fred Wolfe cartoon, and Shredder and Karai are hanging out in the Technodrome, which is, of course, located underground. This is such a surreal scenario for me I can barely process it. The Technodrome, IIRC hasn't been Shredder's base since the Fred Wolfe cartoon.  Later iterations has always associated with Krang ever since, with Krang and his species being a sperate group of antagonists from Shredder. Even the series that featured an incarnation of the Shredder who was the same species as Krang, didn't have him hanging out in the Technodrome. Lastly, the part that makes this the most surreal and unique for me -- the only time Karai has ever had a chance to be there in any iteration I'm familiar with is Turtles Forever, during the memorable and amusing sequence where she sneaks into the Fred Wolfe version of the Technodrome (which this version is, of course, directly based on), curb stomps the FW versions of Shredder and Krang, and takes over the whole operation in service to her own master while deriding the robot foot soldiers as "cartoonish". Perhaps this decision was made to highlight a similar dynamic between the group of villains from the TMNT half of this with the villains from Power Rangers, who would often be shown plotting and bickering from the safety of their own hidden base. Makes about as much sense as anything else.

Another notable distinction is that unlike the Batman/TMNT comic and The Power Rangers/Justice League comic (which I made a point to start reading recently because of this crossover with TMNT), they don't go through a portal, but, as in early 90's crossover comics (appropriate?) and the Batman/TMNT animated movie (again, a deliberate attempt at an "evergreen" template for cross media purposes?) they simply coexist in the same world, with Donnie being fan of the Rangers as local superheroes and thus is depicted as if he's a fan of Power Rangers franchise. Speaking of this, Donnie spouts an inspired crack at the property that I somehow don't recall ever stopping to think about - - how does the Green/Gold Ranger blow into a flute to play music while he has his faceplate up? 

Looking forward to reading some more of this inspired lunacy to see just how much more insane this bizarre mishmash turns out to be.

In general, the dialogue and back and forth between the two heroic groups is cute and fun (I mean, that's sorta the appeal of these kind of crossovers in the first place, isn't it?) and the art, which as I understand it comes from the Power Rangers corner of comics, has that kind of funky but dynamic energy you'd expect from the IDW TMNT comics where the fight scenes and movement looks really good, but the human or humanoid figures look a bit odd and the turtles themselves look ugly as sin.

I'm not nearly as into Power Rangers, so I can't really comment on that half of the comic other than to say that fans of the "Mighty Morphing" era would probably have fun with this. I grew right out of PR as soon as that era ended, and I haven't been able to get back into the main tv show version of it ever since. I recently put on the first few minutes of the first episode of it on Netflix and I don't think I'll be able to watch it because of how overwhelming cheesy, dated and kid-focused it is.

[Silver Shocker]

More TMNT related stuff. Not specifically the comic, but relates to it.

The Netflix licensing deal for Power Rangers is ending this month, and going with it is the infamous 90's live action series Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation, best known for the original female fifth turtles Venus.
I tried watching the first episode of Power Rangers while doing some other things, as I thought it would be neat to revisit since I started reading the PR/TMNT crossover comic, but I found it too childish and cheezy to get very far. So I switched to NM.
It's.....interesting. It's the first time I've seen it since I was a kid, when it first aired.

In some regards, it is indeed terrible. The dialogue is cheesy and childish even for TMNT, the costuming is below par, the show is full of goofy sound effects added in for no good reason and in some cases the acting (specifically Shredder, Splinter and any nameless Foot Soldiers/Rank Soldiers) is atrocious.

Specifically, Shredder, in his brief appearances, looks and sounds terrible. However, his defeat at the beginning of the series posits an interesting concept that would be neat to explore in a future iteration - that The Shredder is a more evil split personality of Oroku Saki's.

The show in general can be described using one of my favorite descriptive phrases - "conceptually interesting".

Dragonlord is not an inherently bad villain, but was disliked by the fandom for replacing Shredder (I seem to recall as a kid I didn't care for him for this reason). His minion, Wick, is kinda fun but is a little too manic and some of his dialogue is pretty bad.

On the other hand, it does a feature a hammy live action performance by legendary Vancouver voice actor Scott McNeil as one of the recurring villains.

The other villain I thought was conceptually interesting was Vam-Mi, a melodramatic female Chinese vampire who was a kind of foil for Venus. I could definitely see Venus and some of the original villains in this show being brought into the IDW comics and used well (as Jammerhead and Darius Dunn are), but apparently there are rights issues with this show.

But of course, the thing everyone remembers the show for is Venus, and part of the fun is revisiting the show in light of the new fifth turtle in the comics.

I've come to the conclusion, after the first five episodes, that while Jennika is the better character, Venus is the better fifth turtle.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my problem with Jenny as the 5th turtle is she doesn't have that comedic energy a Ninja Turtle should have and doesn't have that character dynamics with the other major characters a Ninja Turtle should have. But Venus actually does. As a magic user, her science vs. magic debates with Donnie are a highlight (as has been the case elsewhere, Donnie is best Turtle)

Yes, most of the humor coming from her is bad, consisting mainly of broken English (the character was raised in China), with an accented voice and bungling of slang and common phrases, with the other Turtles correcting her. But ALL of the humor in the show is bad, so it's not her fault specifically. The main problem I have with her is her main character trait (bungling the phrases) only happens half the time, and the other half she's saying the same dopey phrases the other Turtles would say, as if someone swapped her dialogue with Mikey's. 

Overall, the big question for me is, do I think this show is better than the awful unfunny kid-centric comedy Rise of the TMNT? Actually, yes, surprisingly. The humor's probably worse, and the production values and acting are definitely worse (Rise was a very well animated and well voiced show - it's just the writing was dreadful), but the actual overall story and original villains are better, and that's what I prefer about it. With just a few simple tweaks ("be less cheesy") it'd be a pretty good TMNT show, actually.

There is however, at least one genuinely great joke in the show: when the TMNT leave in their Turtle Jeep (yes really, a Jeep) and Raph with his motorcycle, Splinter complains about them being too noisy and says "Next they're going to want a helicopter, or maybe a tank." See, THAT'S actually a clever reference to the overall franchise. I like that a lot! 

One funny piece of trivia is at the opening story arc Donnie uses a radar to track each of the main good guys, with Splinting coded as yellow, the color used for Jennika in the new comics.

Looking further into the trivia for the show reveals lots of interesting tidbits:

-At one point the show was going to be not a sorta-continuation of the live action movies, but of the 89 cartoon. Interesting.
-There was originally going to be a fourth live action movie with a fifth turtle named Kirby (of course) and this character was going to be repurposed for this show, but Saban wanted a female Turtle, so Venus was created.
-Leo was going to have yellow at one stage, so that Venus could use light blue. Bizarre.
-Also at one point Venus was in fact going to use pink. Funny, I always thought that was an awful idea, so I was fine with light blue, yellow, white or black.
-The second season would have been animated and would have had April and Casey Jones. That actually sounds really cool. I would have liked to have seen that.
-Splinter would have died in the second season.

[HarryTrotter]

So I caught up with the ongoing. What a tease...we get Tokka and Rahzar breaking free...and we switch to Jennika giving a pep talk to a pig-girl and Mikey and Mona discussing mutant town politics. Then the white turtle from the future shows up (btw she looks exactly like Karai's Japanese sidekick,down to the tattoos,is that foreshadowing or a weird coincidence) and it just gets annoying... At least we are promised Tokka and Rahzar VS Bebop and Rocksteady. After probably 2-3 issues of Mona ruining for mayor   of Mutant Town or something. 

[Silver Shocker]

Then the white turtle from the future shows up (btw she looks exactly like Karai's Japanese sidekick,down to the tattoos,is that foreshadowing or a weird coincidence)

You made me think for a hot second that you meant Shinigami from the 2012 series and I got really happy, then remembered who you're actually talking about and got sad, because I really liked Shinigami. IDW should bring her back.

At least we are promise Tokka and Rahzar VS Bebop and Rocksteady.

That DOES sound like a all-time TMNT franchise highlight. 

Getting back to The Next Mutation: After the opening five-parter, I skipped straight to Scott McNeil's debut episode, and I'm glad I did, because performance wise, Scott McNeil is AMAZING in this. He's pretty much what it'd be like if Jim Carrey was a Ninja Turtles villain. The funny thing is I'm pretty sure I hated Bonesteel as a kid, but now that I know it's McNeil, that makes it way more awesome, and I've come to appreciate a hammy villain performance a lot more as I've gotten older.

I peeked in on Phealous' review of the episode and his take on Bonesteel is pretty inspired, he says he reminds him most of "Edgar" the Bug from Men in Black, and that it's an appropriate comparison because Bonesteel seems like he too is only pretending to be human. 

Though Phealous is decidedly less generous on McNeil's performance than I: "Really though, if you only saw him in this, you'd think Scott McNeil couldn't act, and that's really not the case."

[EDIT] Checking the comments section of another of Phealous' videos reveals one person point out that Scott McNeil's performance seems to be a Beetlejuice imitation...which, yeah, I could definitely see that.

[HarryTrotter]

I meant (checks the wiki)...Natsu. Apparently,she was supposed to be Tatsu from the movies,but copyright issues.

Oh yeah,i remember when Phelous did a review of Turtles Forever and just whines how the FW turtles are portrayed as pizza obsessed idiots...Like,do you remember the FW cartoon at all?

[Silver Shocker]

Yeah, we all had our licks over that like 10 years ago. Still waiting on the re-releases and the TF Director's Cut there Nick. I'm watching Next Mutation over there for crying out loud!

Phealous was also far more positive towards the good seasons of Real Ghostbusters then I was on a rewatch last year or so. Though Collect Call of Cthulhu (and most of JMS' episodes) was indeed great, and the IDW comic definitely took inspiration from the cartoon.

[BentonGrey]

No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery. 

[HarryTrotter]

No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery.

Not that Im giving you homework...but try watching the movie and any random episode from the middle seasons of the original cartoon. They act exactly like that.

[Silver Shocker]

No, Turtles Forever definitely cranked the silliness of the FW Turtles up to 11 and then broke off the knob.  It was all stuff that was based on their portrayal, but it was definitely exaggerated for effect.  I didn't care for the movie because of that, as it felt less like loving homage and more like mean-spirited mockery.

Well, I don't call myself the fleshy organic Thundercracker for nothing! HERE AH GO~! [For context, Transformers Cybertron/Galaxy Force Thundercracker was an otherwise joke character that the Autobots underestimated, and in what I consider one of the best episodes in the show - "Ambush", he holds his own against Jetfire and earns his respect, fighting him to a draw - technically he won, since Jetfire passed out and he didn't, and the other Autobots had to show up and take him out]

Benton, the show featured a character based on Mr. Mxyspklk (sp)/Great Gazoo/Bat-Mite who sounded exactly like Pee-Wee Herman, Xenomorphs made of Pizza, Leatherhead as a Cajun voiced by Jim Cummings whose catchphrase was "I guarantee", Casey Jones as a shallow parody of Dirty Harry (LAWBREAKERS!!), a parody of the Phantom of the Opera, An episode about elderly turtles at a retirement home (a gag that was done multiple times on Teen Titans Go), an episode about Shredder's mom, Bebop and Rocksteady as superheroes, Shredder voiced by the late great James Avery, aka Uncle Phil from the Fresh Prince, as an almost entirely comic relief character who bickered with Krang like a married couple, references to the three Stooges,  the Turtles almost getting ran over by a Zamboni (which was a gag in the Deadpool movie), they broke the fourth wall multiple times (with Raph's doing that replacement his character from every single other iteration), Burne as a weaksauce J.Jonah Jameson, Vernon and Irma (just Vernon and Irma) and that show is the reason Stockman is a laughing stock in everything except the 2003 and the comics.

And all that is off the top of my head, and I haven't watched the show in over a decade.

I'd take a shot at Rob Paulson as Raph and The Tick as Mikey, but Paulson was a highlight as 2012 Donnie and has proven his self evident talents time and time again, and if nothing else, Townsend Coleman gave Sentinel Prime depth when playing off Elita-One and Wasp in Transformers Animated.

By the comparison, TF had ONE scene of the characters fighting a few strange creatures that included a banana that they defeated by unpeeling it, and the 2012's multiple crossovers with the FW show weren't especially reverent to it.

Look, like I always say, nostalgia's a hell of thing, and like what you like, but ~Let it goooooooo...

Turtles Forever was excellent, (will watch again soon - Director's Cut, of course - your move, Nick), and in terms of what you can watch, nothing they've put out since can touch it. TMNT/Batman, the better parts of 2012 and the finale of Rise come close, but not quite. The only possible improvement on it IMO is redubbing the FW characters with the originals and Kevin Michael Richardson, since he did a near perfect James Avery in the 2012. And considering the re-release of the Telltale Back to the Future dubbed in Thomas F. Wilson for Biff Tannen and his ancestors and descendants, and the fact the 2012 got back almost the entire voice cast, I would not rule out the possibility.

Plus Hun from that movie taught me the meaning of the word "superfluous", and for that I am eternally grateful.

Also TMNT 2012 (which, in fairness, is about 50% an excellent show - but the other 50% is atrocious), tried to retcon the FW Krang as a rogue member of the 2012 Kraang who had hopped to another dimension, which was almost unforgivable in how incompatible it was. They also got me hyped as hell for my main man Agent Bishop only to give me a random Kraang with sunglasses on and turned Hun into a shallow Bruce Lee knockoff with 0% impact on the plot. And that's without getting into how they butchered Mikey and Casey on a writing level. Compared to that, Turtles Forever was the height of classiness.

Plus the FW turned the original comics story into something that was almost unrecognizable and a parody of the source material. It was basically if the entire MCU was Hemsworth as Thor (which, I mean, that's basically Teen Titans Go, granted). Mirage Turtles may have been a parody (Mirage Leo's Frank-Miller-esque dialogue from the final act of TF is lifted directly from the first issue of the comic) but it was a dry, low-key parody. It fell to darn near every version of TMNT since (even including Rise) to repair the damage while attempting to give the fans what they want. There's a reason every single version of Shredder since (except Next Mutation - which was a bad show - I finished the 4-episode Vampire arc, and withdraw my earlier comments) has been complete business.

Putting aside bitterness for how it treated the super serious FW show, If you thought Earth's Mightiest Heroes was the shiznit because it had connected stories and well utilized characters, you're going to have a stroke if you ever watch the 2003 from start to finish, assuming you haven't already (skipping every Fast Forward except "The Journal", the Turtle Titan one, and the one with Bishop and Stockman, that is). That show had Leo as having to deal with anger issues/PTSD and having to overcome it on an Empire-Strikes Back style spirit quest during a pivotal time in the story, some really underrated Mikey content, one of the best versions of Karai , Stockman, Leatherhead and Shredder (multiple times over) and April and Casey getting married.

[HarryTrotter]

Yeah 2003 version ended up being the middle child of the franchise. To this day,there hasn't been a complete DVD release.( And probably wont be now. ) I guess because people who worked on Nick version grew up with the original cartoon and never cared for the 2003 one. I wonder how its doing on...CBS All Access? Oh...
That neglect is a bit odd considering it went on to influence EVERY version after it and even the Mirage comics.

tried to retcon the FW Krang as a rogue member of the 2012 Kraang who had hopped to another dimension, which was almost unforgivable in how incompatible it was.

As the original cartoon mentions every episode,Krang lost his body before the show began. And when he clones the Krangzoids from himself,they are big reptilian things.

An episode about elderly turtles at a retirement home

Isnt that a Robot Chicken gag?

It fell to darn near every version of TMNT since (even including Rise) to repair the damage while attempting to give the fans what they want.

Rise also had a fat,lazy Splinter who watched Japanese game shows all the time. Why is every cartoon these days Teen Titans Go with a different skin?   

[Silver Shocker]

Yeah 2003 version ended up being the middle child of the franchise. To this day,there hasn't been a complete DVD release.( And probably wont be now. ) I guess because people who worked on Nick version grew up with the original cartoon and never cared for the 2003 one. I wonder how its doing on...CBS All Access? Oh...

To my knowledge, the 2003 is not available legally in any capacity outside of the old out-out-of-print DVDs, and the last three seasons were never given a proper release, with Back to the Sewers not being released at all. Yet the  FW series got a full series DVD release, complete with a box set that came in a container made to resemble the turtle van.

No forgiveness until the series is fully released, including the uncut Turtles Forever. Preservation of content is one of the biggest issues in the entertainment industry, and while the video game industry is almost a lost cause, I expect far better from everyone in the age of Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney + for Rao's sake, Street Sharks got a full DVD release. The 90's Double Dragon cartoon is on TubiTV to watch for free while the 90's Street Fighter cartoon gets the same treatment on a few other free streaming services.

As I like to say, "Rights issues are not my problem. They're your problem. And when you make it my problem, that's a problem."

The fact that we got the Castlevania Collection AND the  Contra Collection from Konami (who put out the 90's TMNT classics), and the awesome Disney Afternoon Collection from Capcom with both Ducktales games (AND A FULLY VOICED REMAKE FROM WAYFORWARD) and they finally got the Scott Pilgrim rereleased, but the classic beat-em-ups aren't currently available means someone is slacking the heck off (Nick/Viacom/Paramount or Konami; pick your poison)

Now the good news and the bad news is that outside of a retro phsyical arcade cabinet that was released within the past year or so, there is one place to get your hands legit on the 90's classic TMNT: Turtles in Time outside of the original SNES and Genesis ports: The third video game tie-in to the 2003 show, which is on PS2 and Gamecube and adapts some of the best arcs from Season 3. The bad news is ordering one online will set you back 70-80 bucks. A reproduction cartridge of the original SNES will set you back 40 bucks (I checked Amazon, obviously other sites exist). I say you could better justify the purchase of Mutant Nightmare by thinking of it as two games in one, with one of those being one of the greatest games of all time.

Maybe I'll have to check the local pawn shops sometime if I have the option and see if I can snag a copy on the supercheap. It's the only reason I have the 2003 seasons sets I do have.

Anyway, to bring it all back, I have a theory that those who defended the FW show this way are conflating the show itself with the classic Konami beat em ups, which had minimal scripts and featured boss enemies that put up incredibly challenging fights, in particular Krang and Shredder at the end, with Shredder turning into Super Shredder in the games.

And Back to the Sewers not getting a season set OR airing in Canada especially sticks in my craw because even with the goofy cyberspace gimmick that was in maybe half the episodes, it was a very admirable return to form, improving the art style, theme song, and bringing back the classic characters. Casey even became a more competent fighter, something that definitely felt like it should have happened, and, of course, the series finale was the wedding of April and Casey, which was absolutely chock full of meaningful cameos. Though it did feature Karai with Dr. Chaplain as her + 1, and as much as I love that series, pairing up Karai with Chaplain was atrocious. I love both characters, but that's seriously one of the worst ships I've ever seen in any series.

That neglect is a bit odd considering it went on to influence EVERY version after it and even the Mirage comics.

President of Mesa Verde from Better Call Saul: YUP!

Again, that show's 1. The only reason we have new TMNT at all and the only reason anyone knows who Karai is unless they read the original comics or played that one game from the 90's. And yet not only did it get the shaft, you got folks online going "Oh boy, here come the 2003 fans" And why do you think that might be?

And lest I forget, that cartoon is not only my favorite show of all time, it's also the show I judge all other Western-made action cartoons by. Why? 8 seasons and a movie, and only two of those seasons were anything less than great, that's why.

As the original cartoon mentions every episode,Krang lost his body before the show began. And when he clones the Krangzoids from himself,they are big reptilian things.

YUP. One of my favorite episodes of the original show.

And past that, Dimension X is radically different in 2012 than in FW, and separate versions of Traag and Granitor exist in both shows. It was bullcrap of the highest order.

Isnt that a Robot Chicken gag?

It was, and it's also in the original show. As they said with Friedberg and Setzer, it's hard to make a parody of something that was already a parody.

Rise also had a fat,lazy Splinter who watched Japanese game shows all the time.

Yep, and I hated that with a white hot passion. He gets over that at the end of S1. I hated about 80% of that show, but the remaining 20%? Actually rather good.

Why is every cartoon these days Teen Titans Go with a different skin?

Because for some reason quite a few animated comedies these days (Go, Rise, Star Trek Lower Decks) think comedy = "Hey, what if the entire cast are a-holes for no sensible reason?"

At least Rick and Morty, like Go, was self-aware of it, though a good chunk of its fanbase managed to miss that.

Even the Harley Quinn did that too with the Mister Freeze storyline, which I really enjoyed.

[HarryTrotter]

Good news is that the whole 2003 show is up on CBS All Access. If anyone uses that.

With video games preservation...pretty much. IIRC GOG/CD Project Red had to write most of the Blade Runner code on their own. Richard Garriot has a computer running the original Ultima at all times so he doesn't lose the code. When hes not getting trolled by fake Spoony on twitter,ofc. And I think I mentioned that Frank Herbert estate didn't even want to discuss the Dune games with GOG. 

Action cartoons are not really a thing anymore,it seems. Compare Thundercats 2011 and the current TTG inspired version,for example. Or even 2012 TMNT and Rise. 2012 version is kind of a link here. It was an action cartoon and it was good when it was that. But also wacky races,horror parodies and butt jokes. And oh boy,the homages in that version...One episode of not-Mad Max would be bearable,but a whole tv-movie/3 episodes? That's just a waste of everyone time.

On the original cartoon,any episode with Casey was pretty damn hilarious. When he goes undercover at a company,while still wearing the mask ofc.