Batman v Superman

[bat1987]

Liking what I'm seeing so far. And wow Snyder sure is a big Miller fan. Cool stuff.

[Tomato]

Meh. Personally, all the Miller references leave me feeling very frustrated. I personally detest Miller's Batman, PARTICULARLY regarding his relationship with Superman. It makes me less enthusiastic about the whole movie.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Ditto.  Millar may have done some good stuff in the (distant) past, but I'd rather keep his influence out of it, thanks.

[JKCarrier]

If Wonder Woman's going to have a sword, I think it's only fair that Superman start carrying around a battle axe. Batman, of course, should have a baseball bat, perhaps with a few nails stuck in it to show he means business.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That's silly.  I know you're trying to make a point about giving characters weapons--but your just plain wrong here.  Superman doesn't often carry around a battle axe in the comics.  Batman doesn't often have a baseball bat (although he did used to carry about a gun and shoot people with it) Wonder Woman does use a sword.  Not all the time, but it is something she's been known to do quite a lot.  It's well within her established character.  Not when super-heroing, but when acting like an Amazon warrior, all the time.

[BentonGrey]

That's a fair point, Cat, but we are seeing a move in modern comics back towards lethal heroes, much to the detriment of the genre, in my opinion.  Aquaman is gutting folks with a trident, Wonder Woman is slicing people up with a sword, and there are several "heroes" whose powers seem to be "guns."  Yeah, Wonder Woman has an origin that makes her a warrior, but in general, her carrying a sword has become a more common occurrence, or so it seems to me.

Given Snyder and co's predilections, it seems reasonable that we might see a lethal WW in this film.

[JKCarrier]

Wonder Woman does use a sword.  Not all the time, but it is something she's been known to do quite a lot. It's well within her established character.

Wearing a mullet is within Superman's "established character", but I'd still point and laugh if they put it in a movie. "Wonder Xena" is the first resort of clueless, lazy writers in all media.

[Silver Shocker]

If Wonder Woman's going to have a sword, I think it's only fair that Superman start carrying around a battle axe. Batman, of course, should have a baseball bat, perhaps with a few nails stuck in it to show he means business.

Don't give Frank Miller any ideas in case he ever writes some more All-Star Batman and Robin. 

I'm not really an expert on Wonder Woman, but I've heard people who feel very passionate about the character saying she should be kind and inspiring (like Superman). I think the Justice League cartoon is probably the best example of I think Wonder Woman is/should be, of the stuff I've been exposed to (which is mostly that, some of the animated movies and cartoons, JLA comics and event comics, ect). A lot of alternate universe versions (Miller's ASBAR being the absolute worst example) tend to play her up as a sword wielding warrior, who is aggressive and ill-tempered (I think the Injustice video game played up the "sword-weilding warrior" aesthetic). In the New 52 comics she has the sword, but I mostly only read Justice League so my knowledge of her is based on that. That mostly spent time on her relationship with Steve Trevor and Superman, neither of which is probably relevant to the movie. (those bullet points in my previous post were a joke at the expense of the modern comics, btw, in case people didn't get it)

Tomato, I think if the movie has a different reason for Batman to fight Superman that doesn't replicate Miller's politics or take on those characters, it'll probably be fine. A lot of adaptations put in familiar elements without telling the same story (Captain America: The Winter Soldier, for example, isn't really the same story as Brubaker's storyline in the comics). If you feel differently, that's ok. Personally I didn't even like the original Dark Knight Returns comic that much and the main reason I like the animated movie a lot better is because a few of the elements I didn't like from the comic (notably the talking heads politics and Miller's inconsistent art) were either absent or downplayed in it.

[Shogunn2517]

Wonder Woman does use a sword.  Not all the time, but it is something she's been known to do quite a lot. It's well within her established character.

Wearing a mullet is within Superman's "established character", but I'd still point and laugh if they put it in a movie. "Wonder Xena" is the first resort of clueless, lazy writers in all media.

Normally, I would agree with you, like when I went to see the Avengers with my non-comic-literate friends and they ask me "so that guy with the bow and arrow is Green Arrow right?"

But in this case, this is Wonder Woman and she has about a 40 year head start on Xena.  Though there could be comparisons, in a movie with Superman and Batman, I think most will assume it to be Wonder Woman.

[spydermann93]

Wonder Woman does use a sword.  Not all the time, but it is something she's been known to do quite a lot. It's well within her established character.

Wearing a mullet is within Superman's "established character", but I'd still point and laugh if they put it in a movie. "Wonder Xena" is the first resort of clueless, lazy writers in all media.

Normally, I would agree with you, like when I went to see the Avengers with my non-comic-literate friends and they ask me "so that guy with the bow and arrow is Green Arrow right?"

But in this case, this is Wonder Woman and she has about a 40 year head start on Xena.  Though there could be comparisons, in a movie with Superman and Batman, I think most will assume it to be Wonder Woman.

I think that JKC was referring to "lazy writers" making Wonder Woman use weapons in combat more than her actually trying to NOT kill her opponents, not so much people confusing Wonder Woman for Xena.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think that I personally know anybody that would mistake Wonder Woman for Xena, haha

Also on the same subject, my friends thought that Hawkeye was Green Arrow, too.  Made me laugh

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Again, this is just a promo photo for a character whose only appearance will be a cameo.  Showing her wearing a sword makes perfect sense in that context.

[spydermann93]

Again, this is just a promo photo for a character whose only appearance will be a cameo.  Showing her wearing a sword makes perfect sense in that context.

It would be funny if all of these other characters (Cyborg, Wonder Woman, etc.) only appear for a brief second.  Something like Batman doing research on Superman with his computer and images of "new" superhumans show up on screen for a few seconds each.

[JKCarrier]

Since people are having trouble parsing my meaning:
Wonder Woman carrying a sword is a relatively recent "innovation", one that I think is dumb and inappropriate for the character. And I am disappointed to see they are going that route in the movie. Clear enough?

[JeyNyce]

Since people are having trouble parsing my meaning:
Wonder Woman carrying a sword is a relatively recent "innovation", one that I think is dumb and inappropriate for the character. And I am disappointed to see they are going that route in the movie. Clear enough?

It's just a promo shot.  She may not even have one in the movie.

[lugaru]

The thing about Wonder Woman as a warrior, is that it seems to have clicked more with modern audiences (myself included).

I have a hard time getting behind this super weird Amazonian embassador with all sorts of campy baggage (50's Betty Page bondagy covers, 70's disco, 80's invisible jets) so making her a straight up warrior with strong ties to mythology makes the character instantly click with people.

Honestly that is how Hercules (in Marvel) had a strong resurgence, by doing modern/urban fantasy heavily influenced by mythology.

So yeah, I'm all for giving her more metal on her costume (reminiscent of armor) and some real weapons. I'm not going to get into a debate about how awesome the lasso is, I'm just saying it is not as visually striking as when she is better armed.

[Shogunn2517]

Wonder Woman does use a sword.  Not all the time, but it is something she's been known to do quite a lot. It's well within her established character.

Wearing a mullet is within Superman's "established character", but I'd still point and laugh if they put it in a movie. "Wonder Xena" is the first resort of clueless, lazy writers in all media.

Normally, I would agree with you, like when I went to see the Avengers with my non-comic-literate friends and they ask me "so that guy with the bow and arrow is Green Arrow right?"

But in this case, this is Wonder Woman and she has about a 40 year head start on Xena.  Though there could be comparisons, in a movie with Superman and Batman, I think most will assume it to be Wonder Woman.

I think that JKC was referring to "lazy writers" making Wonder Woman use weapons in combat more than her actually trying to NOT kill her opponents, not so much people confusing Wonder Woman for Xena.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think that I personally know anybody that would mistake Wonder Woman for Xena, haha

Also on the same subject, my friends thought that Hawkeye was Green Arrow, too.  Made me laugh

Funny you should say that because I'm having the Wonder Woman/Xena debate with a friend on FB as we speak!

[Shogunn2517]

Since people are having trouble parsing my meaning:
Wonder Woman carrying a sword is a relatively recent "innovation", one that I think is dumb and inappropriate for the character. And I am disappointed to see they are going that route in the movie. Clear enough?

I understand your point.

AS A SEPARATE POINT(JKC)...

I just pointed out to a friend of mine that Wonder Woman wearing a red and blue swimsuit makes as much sense as Batman wearing blue and gray spandex.  It's just not practical.  So with that being so, what SHOULD she wear?  What would be authentic to THAT CHARACTER.  It make sense for a vigilante prowling the night to wear black Kevlar.  What about a Grecian Superwoman born from a few thousand years ago?

[Starman]

I think Gal Godot looks great and I never doubted that she would. She's a good-looking human being and, like Cavill and Affleck, she's been doing the superhero workout regime. I also like the costume.

Wonder Woman's modern depiction uses a sword and weaponry ... I never expected the classic tiara-throwing Wonder Woman in her stars n' stripes uniform to appear in a Zack Snyder film. In the context of the tone of Man of Steel, that would look out of place.

[Podmark]

The thing about Wonder Woman as a warrior, is that it seems to have clicked more with modern audiences (myself included).

I have a hard time getting behind this super weird Amazonian embassador with all sorts of campy baggage (50's Betty Page bondagy covers, 70's disco, 80's invisible jets) so making her a straight up warrior with strong ties to mythology makes the character instantly click with people.

Well said. The only time I've ever had interest in her solo series is when it plays with the mythology elements (the current run seems interesting).


About lethal force, just because she has a sword does not mean she'll be killing people. However, my expectation right now is that Synder would go a lethal route. But we'll see, we've never really seen him handle superheroes like this. Man of Steel's Zod solution has been stated as the creation of Superman's anti-killing mantra, though we've yet to see if Synder will stick with that. The other franchises he's worked with used characters that wouldn't hesitate to kill so it's hard to say how he'll handle the League. I could easily see a conflict arise where Diana the warrior is all too willing to kill but Superman and Batman are dead against it. But that's pure speculation at this point.

[BWPS]

Official Hi-Res Wonder Woman Photo and Description of Teaser Trailer

Not sure how I feel about the sword, but that jet looks freaking sweet!

[trebean]

Since people are having trouble parsing my meaning:
Wonder Woman carrying a sword is a relatively recent "innovation", one that I think is dumb and inappropriate for the character. And I am disappointed to see they are going that route in the movie. Clear enough?

Not really an innovation if she has used it multiple times the past decad
es

Official Hi-Res Wonder Woman Photo and Description of Teaser Trailer

Not sure how I feel about the sword, but that jet looks freaking sweet!

Wait..... what Je, Ohhhh.
I see what you did there

[Shogunn2517]

The thing about Wonder Woman as a warrior, is that it seems to have clicked more with modern audiences (myself included).

I have a hard time getting behind this super weird Amazonian embassador with all sorts of campy baggage (50's Betty Page bondagy covers, 70's disco, 80's invisible jets) so making her a straight up warrior with strong ties to mythology makes the character instantly click with people.

Well said. The only time I've ever had interest in her solo series is when it plays with the mythology elements (the current run seems interesting).


About lethal force, just because she has a sword does not mean she'll be killing people. However, my expectation right now is that Synder would go a lethal route. But we'll see, we've never really seen him handle superheroes like this. Man of Steel's Zod solution has been stated as the creation of Superman's anti-killing mantra, though we've yet to see if Synder will stick with that. The other franchises he's worked with used characters that wouldn't hesitate to kill so it's hard to say how he'll handle the League. I could easily see a conflict arise where Diana the warrior is all too willing to kill but Superman and Batman are dead against it. But that's pure speculation at this point.

I get that.  The way I see Wonder Woman is that she doesn't have the same value of human life as Superman and Batman does.  Batman doesn't kill because killing is the one thing that makes them them and him him.  Superman doesn't want to kill because he wants to do EVERYTHING possible to make himself seem as human as possible so that many more people can trust him.  Wonder Woman at BEST believes in a female dominated society and at worse all too familiar with the destructive abilities of mankind.  She's coming from a society of warriors.  I would imagine violence and death is a concept she's all to comfortable with.  In fact judging by the way she's dressed and armed, I'd be surprised if she wasn't willing to kill.

Moreover, and I know this is off-topic, but I just finished watching the last hour or so of MAN OF STEEL and I'm STILL really bothered by the movie.  Tomorrow's headline across the world should have been "ALIENS OBLITERATE MAJOR AMERICAN CITY", not "SUPERMAN SAVES THE DAY".  He pretty much appeared the same time Zod and the other Kryptonians appeared.  For all the world knows, alien beings came to earth and had a battle in the middle of America.  How would we know who's the good guys or bad guys?  Before Smallville is decimated and Metropolis is devastated with a 9/11 x 10, there was no Superman.  He never saved any reporters dropping like flies and gets a softball interview after.  He never caught any jumbo jets falling from the sky.  He's never stopped any rampaging robots in downtown Metropolis.  Why would anyone in the world trust him as a good guy?  Think about it, if two alien armies came from out of the sky and had a battle over the skies of L.A. would anyone care what it's about or would they care about all the damage being caused to the cities?  Sorry, just getting it off my chest.

[Silver Shocker]

If I recall the modern comics, she mostly uses the sword the way Wolverine does in the cartoons - using it to kill monsters (such as Greek mythology style monsters), robots, giant plant things, ect. I don't know of her ever using it to kill a human being or even an human-like alien ect (though again, I haven't read her own books). If that was brought up in a post above mine and I managed to miss it, sorry.

[BentonGrey]

Didn't she use lethal force against the Atlantians in the Justice League book?  I remember a very casual approach to violence and death in general in most of the New 52 books.

[lugaru]

I think the important part of Wonder Woman is for writers not to forget that she is on a mission of peace... so you can put a gun holster on her if you want, but once she is initiating agression then they are off the mark. I'm way behind on the comics but even in the hyper violent Injustice game, they did a good job of riding this line in the cut scenes... that she was sent to prevent wars, not lead them.

[BentonGrey]

That's the key, Lu.  The warrior heritage is part of the character, but she's supposed to be above aggression and the like.  I'm reminded of the portrayal of Storm Shadow from the G.I. JOE comics, "the only rational purpose for mastering violence is to abolish it."  That's the core of the character, and when you must turn her into Hercules in a tiara, you lose that.  As others have said, JLU got her right, like it got most things right.

[JeyNyce]

I think we're making this more than it really is.  She is just doing a cameo.  How long will does a cameo last?  A few seconds?

[BentonGrey]

I think we're making this more than it really is.  She is just doing a cameo.  How long will does a cameo last?  A few seconds?

Well, I think the conversation has drifted a bit from her role in this particular movie to the question of her modern interpretation in general.  A cameo can be a few seconds or a minor role.  I have had similar reflections as someone else here, wondering if we'll only see these guest stars very briefly. 

[Silver Shocker]

Didn't she use lethal force against the Atlantians in the Justice League book?  I remember a very casual approach to violence and death in general in most of the New 52 books.

You might be right about that. I totally forgot about that storyline when I made that post.

[BWPS]

That's the key, Lu.  The warrior heritage is part of the character, but she's supposed to be above aggression and the like.  I'm reminded of the portrayal of Storm Shadow from the G.I. JOE comics, "the only rational purpose for mastering violence is to abolish it."  That's the core of the character, and when you must turn her into Hercules in a tiara, you lose that.  As others have said, JLU got her right, like it got most things right.

Everything but the Flash.