Kitbashing: Should It Be Allowed? Open Discussion.

[Tomato]

My only two other thoughts are these -  One, I kind of missed the whole IPS thing a few years ago, but I remember hearing he tried reporting websites hosting Marvel/ DC skins to the comic companies, trying to get the sites shutdown out of spite. I never heard exactly what ticked him off but I think it was someone hexing/ kitbashing his work

Second, I remember in 2003 back when things were starting to roll and the main site was the Skindex. Then Marvel gave a cease and desist  letter to the page host and he had to shut down. He was just a normal guy with a dayjob and a love for the the game and he couldn't risk a lawsuit. One of Marvel's many stupid moves towards their fans over the last few years, and they probably don't care about FF anymore, but as far as I know they never changed their stance on the subject. With an average of about 30 visitors to the main game forum, and a game with outdated graphics from so long ago, they've probably forgotten about FF.

The IPS thing... what kicked off that mess was a completely different issue. You can pm me or someone that was involved in it if you're curious about it, but we've got enough to debate without opening that can of worms here.

As for the Marvel thing... there was quite a bit of turmoil over Marvel sending out C&D to everyone, but the simple fact was that their efforts were more focused on sites making content for The Sims (The skindex being a VERY public example of that), since many other sites were selling their content and Marvel wasn't big on that. They never really went after FF as much, because we've stayed pretty strictly non-profit.

@Cyber- I used to actually include a notation in my readmes for what base skin I used, but I stopped doing that because I wasn't really using other bases anymore. I wouldn't say it should be done as a rule (especially since the base skins are all pretty distinctive) but I see where you're coming from on it.

[spydermann93]

To turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.

I could not agree with you more, Tomato.

[vorelliwiseau]

I might be alone in this, but I actually do read the readmes.

You're not alone, buddy! I like checking out the ReadMes: the recipes are interesting to look into, and you learn a lot especially if you're looking for permissible sources. Plus sometimes there are other bonuses - I remember a certain ReadMe saying there was a DBZ Minecraft mod out for release.

And about the table thing, whatever floats you guys' boat - I'm just glad Podmark got my name on the permissions list! Thanks, Pod.

[Cyber Burn]

To turn it around, if we created the nifskope list backwards, making everything open except when people specifically ask NOT to be on the list, what happens in cases like Webrider's? Webrider, for those not aware, is a member who died before nifskope existed. True, by all accounts Webrider would be ok with it, but since he cannot make that decision, we choose to respect him and his work and not make that decision for him. If we make an exception for him, what happens in cases where we honestly don't have contact with the person anymore? They could be dead too for all we know.

I could not agree with you more, Tomato.

There are, I believe, two skinners that I know of that have passed away, one is Paradox, and the other was Flash_22798. Paradox's skins should be off-limits right off the bat. No if''s and's or but's As for Flash, when he gave me all of his back-up disks, he told me to do with them as I saw fit. This is something that I have really been thinking about the last few days, and to be honest, I really haven't decided if this is where I want to go yet, so for now, at least, I am asking that his skins be made off-limit until further notice.

[Cyber Burn]

• Please contact anyone not listed below before using their content. I will add their decision to this list.

In a situation like this, I believe that who ever contacts the skinner that they are asking permission from, should find out if permission is being given on a general basis, or on a skin by skin circumstance.

[detourne_me]

Cyber Burn, Matrix was another skinner who passed away.  I believe we should also respect his body of work by not kit bashing.

In regards to my own meager attempts from the past, by all means, do whatever you would like to them.

[Podmark]

And about the table thing, whatever floats you guys' boat - I'm just glad Podmark got my name on the permissions list! Thanks, Pod.

No problem.

• Please contact anyone not listed below before using their content. I will add their decision to this list.

In a situation like this, I believe that who ever contacts the skinner that they are asking permission from, should find out if permission is being given on a general basis, or on a skin by skin circumstance.

When this does occur it's best if the original artist contacts me or one of our mods directly or posts directly on the forum. I will be attempting verify any claims that a skinner has given permission before I add them to the list. Same as the Nifskope list.


I've added Paradox, Matrix, and Flash. I haven't given Flash the same notation because Cyber Burn is acting as the executor of his skinning estate.

[SickAlice]

My two cents

- Personally, if someone says no I see that as a request that I'll honor that just because why not? I don't want someone to be upset over something like game modding so it's no skin off my back to remove the file.

On the topic however I see it like this:

- Whose ownership is stated here? Right out the gate this is a game that's intended to be customized with files and characters that are intended to be customized. Legally, Irrational owns these files and has given express permission for any of us to kitbash and share their initial work. Anything we do roots in that engine and thus is a kitbash of Irrationals work and again permissible, and again the whole point of the game is to do modify and share files. Personally I hold nothing I do here as my own work regardless of how much or little I put into the file and hope anyone does whatever they want with it.

- Also in the terms of ownership, much of what we do is based on already copyrighted characters from fiction. Do I really have the right to claim Spider-man as my property and tell you what to do with art based on him? I say this and I won't go into the specifics, but I was threatened with a lawsuit over using a file that someone else based on a Marvel character. By that I mean it was a Marvel character exactly, and as well the skin was retrofitted from scanned artwork from a comic book to begin with. I accepted without question and deleted the file. But what grabbed me was the lawsuit threat. Say in some world this person had taken me to court, right? The truth is they would not only lose because they don't own the property in question (and this is outside of what I said above about Irrational), they would enter themselves into a copyright infringement charge. That sounds really silly to read, but I've seen this happen in real life whereas an individual I knew made Star Wars costumes, sold them online, then tried to sue his partner for copyright infringement. Instead he ended up sued by Lucas and now works to pay his company off the debt to date. Just saying.

- If you or I share a file than we automatically opened the door for it to be used freely without our consent and regardless of. That motive is implied by the first action. If I leave money out in the park am I really entitled to later scold anyone who would pick up the money as use it they see fit?

- Lastly, whats " allowing ". I see his term batted around online a lot. I'm fairly certain we aren't a legal system in real life, just in fact a bunch of gamers. I just think it's weird. I see discussions all the time online about what people are going to allow in this world, or more in specific countries, states, provinces, ect. regardless of the users specific origins. I'm pretty sure any of us lacks the power to allow or not allow anything anyone else does. I've decided I'll allow you to ride a bicycle anywhere you wish as long a it's not a red colored bike. See how silly that sounds?

My end is personally I won't kitbash if I am specifically asked not to do it, but I won't say I see any legally binding end to that and would only be doing so and have just to be nice.

[Cyber Burn]

In all honesty, I don't think that anyone has any intention of bringing legalities into this discussion. I think it has always been about showing respect for the hard work that our content creators have done. For example, I wouldn't kittbash a C6 skin, not because I'm afraid of him throwing a lawsuit in my direction, but rather, because I don't want to urine him off and push him away from the community.

For me, starting this thread was always about making more resources available to potential content creators. I mean, how many new skopers create new skopes, but then don't preview them because they don't have the resources to provide skins for them? How many potential skinners don't preview their first skins because they used a piece from another skinner's work? By making kittbashing permissible, admittedly, with rules, how many new members would now try to become new content creators?

This is a 10 year old game, with a 10 year old community. Personally, I would love to see it last another 10 years, so I'll do my best to encourage and respect all content creators, both old and new.

[crimsonquill]

I still consider myself a rookie Skoper but became fairly worried about my skinning efforts since I didn't want to upset anyone by modifying their hard work. I finally just opted for making rather simple place holder skins until a skinner wanted to tackle making a much more detailed version.

I'm very happy to see that the FR community is still alive and growing after all this time.

- CQ

[Tomato]

Cyber Burn is 100% correct. The reason we don't kittbash/skope Beyonder's Doctor Octopus and Vulture meshes is NOT because Beyonder has any legal right to tell anyone what do do with a mesh that's based on a Marvel Comics copyrighted character: He does not. We don't kittbash those meshes because Beyonder asked us not to. Beyonder is a mesher who put time, effort, and quality into everything he did, and we value his contributions to the community. As such, when he requested we not alter work he put time and effort into, we respected that choice.

That was always the thing about kittbashing with me: I didn't give a dalek's tentacle about someone coming behind me and altering my skins. But I have frequently slammed people for kittbashing work from those creators I respected without bothering to ask for permission or give credit. THAT was always the central point for me: If a creator has put time and effort into something, that effort will be respected.

We're not saying "this is the law, for serious!" either. This is the internet, some yahoo can easily make a website with kittbashed skins of whatever he feels like on his/her own website and we can't stop them. But in this community we have always respected the wishes of those who took the time to give us amazing work for free, and I don't see that ever changing.

[SickAlice]

I understand that, hence why I said I don't do it myself for the same reasons and/or remove files when prompted. Hence as well why I title anything I put out crediting the original author and include any files they had in the first place.I was just dropping some things I think about it, added as I said without giving details in order to not kick the dog further, was threatened with such a legal scenario which I found...silly for multiple reasons. Or to be short of it I don't believe any of " you " are saying it's a matter of legality, nor did I say it. But some people have said as such and personally I think and hope they understand the truth of such claims of copyright, you know? Sorry if I didn't word it right that I understood and in fact agreed with the idea that the original artists wishes should be respected and was adding another bit to that regarding copyright claims, and if I worded things to insinuate anyone other than the specific cases and/or those in this thread, which was not the message I was sending nor my intent. Again, " you " are not saying it's about legality and the law, and I'm not saying you are. I'm speaking directly to those who have done just that.

[Podmark]

Now I'm not a lawyer but I was under the understanding that while the content wasn't ours we did own the work. So if I make a skin of Wolverine I can't claim any ownership of the character but I could claim ownership of the artwork depicting him. Again I could be wrong but I do believe the artist does carry some rights in that respect.

[Cyber Burn]

I don't know the legality of the issues, and in all honesty, I don't know if it's where we should take this discussion. For me, this has always been about respecting our content creators, while still making available more resources for content creation.

That said, I'm concerned that if we start discussing legal issues, this conversation will not stay on subject. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know the laws, and I don't feel comfortable about going in this direction.

[SickAlice]

K-dokey Cyber Burn and sorry for taking it there then. I only did as such since my personal encounter with friction regarding kit bashing entailed as such so I thought it was relevant to mention. and your conversation here was actually already about the same subject when I entered, though I'm not sure right now whether your aware of that then. Either way a discussion for another time and place.

[Cyber Burn]

I didn't mean to squash a topic, but if this is something that people think needs to be discussed, then I would prefer it to be in a separate thread. Personally, I would rather not mix the discussion about respecting others work with the legal aspects of ownership. I know I asked for an honest and open discussion, but I really think these subjects should be kept separate.

However, if everyone else feels that this is where this discussion should go, then I won't object.

[Bloodshadow]

Wow,I've missed a LOT
Sorry folks but I'm going to have to say no to kitbashing,sorry.The reason I have this stance on the subject is this,I was one of those that kitbashed the crap out of Courtnall's creations when I began skinning because I was terrible at doing hair and very often "borrowed" his hairstyles from various skins.When Court started his no kitbash rule I started doing everything on my own (except my use of base skins which are still C6's)and it has really made me a better skinner because I didn't take the easy way out and learned to do more myself which I believe is what C6 wanted when he made the rule,more variety.At the same time though I will make exceptions in certain situations,just PM me and I'll let ya know.A big thank you to Cyber Burn and Podmark for the effort they've put into this.

[Tomato]

Bloodshadow, I fully respect your decision here and I agree with your reasoning behind it. However, as you yourself pointed out, you started out kittbashing other skins. As did I, and as did most of the skinners here.

I didn't put my name on this list so that say, Podmark could kittbash my work. He's fully capable of doing his own stuff, and if he did kittbash mine I'd probably pm him about it. Similarly, if someone is clearly capable of doing their own skins but continues to because they can't be bothered to put the work in, I'd probably pm them about it as well. I put my name on this list so that if someone wants to take the time and learn, they don't have to be afraid of me jumping down their neck for using Ultraman's cape on a skin until they are ready to skin their own.

[Bloodshadow]

I agree completely Tomato and thanks for the input,I have no problem with people using whatever they want of my skins but at the same time I just wanted others to have the same encouragement to learn that I got from Courtnall and am very grateful for.You do make a good point though and I will change my stance and allow any of my stuff to be used,I just want everyone to have fun and keep this community going another decade or so.

[Tomato]

Honestly man, the only reason I said anything is because I had those concerns myself and responding to your post gave me an opportunity to address them publicly. While I'm all for kittbashing as a learning tool for new members, it is NOT something I feel like experienced skinners should depend on, any more than base skins are: I learned so much about the process of skinning just making my original base skin, and that thing was a blurry mess.

[Podmark]

I didn't put my name on this list so that say, Podmark could kittbash my work.

Well crud, and here I thought I was done my latest skin. 

I feel the same way guys, but it doesn't bother me if there's a decent reason.

[DrMike2000]

That's a good point, Tomato, about expanding one's skills. Its very much analogous to the advice given to artists to not base their work on other artists but observe life through their own eyes.
However, kitbashing was an extremely useful trick for me as a skinner, but not primarily a skinner.

When I made my first task list for the Strangers, the most daunting part was looking at all the skins I'd have to make. Becoming an experienced kit-basher helped a lot, and I wouldn't have got my mods made without it.
Later on I had help, of course:  Forcer doing alternate skins for the Strangers, bearded's help with meshes and skins and culminating in a titanic team-up with the Awesome Artistic Afghan Ant!
But at the beginning I was a nobody with a fistful of characters no-one had heard of, and limited time, and every short-cut helped.

[Deaths Jester]

Honestly man, the only reason I said anything is because I had those concerns myself and responding to your post gave me an opportunity to address them publicly. While I'm all for kittbashing as a learning tool for new members, it is NOT something I feel like experienced skinners should depend on, any more than base skins are: I learned so much about the process of skinning just making my original base skin, and that thing was a blurry mess.

Base skins?!?!?!  What the 'ell is a base skin?!?!?!?!   

[Skerdilajd Shehi]

Kitbashing is NOT allowed without premissions. Specially so long you or i ask