Recycling Game Resources

[SickAlice]

I had a question for any of you I was toying with last night. How do all feel about conversions/swaps. I mean bringing in a 3d model from somewhere else like Superior Iron Man. See myself I'm really versed in the ins and outs of the law. I won't go to into depth (will elsewhere though if anyone wishes that) but it boils down to that it's fine to use a " capture " of a " game resource " as long as one isn't 1.) distributing the in game files (the executables and what not, Freedom Force is of course an exception as we were prompted to this very thing) and 2.) attempting to make gainful profit and/or claiming credit for the resources origin. I'm adhering to neither and imo the way it boils down is on one hand I would rather make everything myself for the learning process if anything however I want all of you to have the best looking stuff as possible and in many cases a pro just did a better looking model/texture than I could hope to at this time. So due to the latter I have no dissonance in recycling a game model and transplanting it this one. But maybe some of you feel otherwise and I'm interested to know why. As it stands I have a few game models I want to directly, or pretty close to, port over to FFVTTR. Like the new Ultron Movie model from Contest Of Champions. I already have that set up and ready to go on my hard drive and let me tell all of you that is one of the most elegant things I've been fortunate enough to ever see (if you have a moment do a search and look at it). But I'm hesitant to release it since I'm not 100% on what the consensus is here. Thanks for any responses any of you give here, your perceptions and whats important to you is important to me in turn no matter how trivial it may seem even.

[spydermann93]

As long as you give credit and don't try and make profit from it, I'm perfectly fine with taking models from other games and using them for fan-made projects.

Contest of Champions (I just looked it up) has a lot of really amazing models that I would love to see in-game, especially the AoU Hulkbuster Armor!

[Cyber Burn]

In all honesty, I don't know the legality of what we do here. But I will say, if we're not breaking the law in any way, shape, or form, then I'm all for continuing down the path we're going. Also, by looking at the Models from other Games, I usually start looking into other Games as well, and if other people are like that, then it's basically a win-win situation for us, and for other Games.

On a personal level, I have no problem with recycling material from other Games, honestly, I think the different styles from the other Games adds a bit more diversity to FF.

[SickAlice]

Contest Of Champions has really cumbersome models to work with as well I find. Unlike say Marvel Heroes models the vertices are not welded (that's odd actually) which makes them very easy to work with. As well the base is closer to what we use for Freedom Force. I've said it elsewhere but another reason I don't take much issue is in many modern games cases, Marvel Heroes and Contest Of Champions, the game makers are actually recycling the same body models for their males and females anyways and as it turns out those models are public domain and free to use (they come with some dev package, the recent Unreal game engine if I remember this right?).

In short the law on this and sorry if I sound arrogant or something but I spend a lot time studying law as well as an identity theft victim I've spent a good part of the decade in court, but it is as follows (nutshell):

1.) We are free to use in game resources however we please. Sites as you know it for example can take screenshots of sprites and make them available or extract models from games and do the same. As long as no profit is being asked for. And I tell you and I've seen this happen personally, a lawsuit with LucasFilms was actually one case, but NEVER ask for money for this stuff because the company will bring the hammer down and win. You will be dashing against the rocks as it were.
1a.) Most of the in game artists actually don't mind that modders do this on a personal level either. I've spoken to the sculpture in question briefly (Marvel Heroes, COC) and many of them see it as a form of recognition and adoration for their hard work. Sort of the same effect as someone getting art you drew as a tattoo I guess.

2.) The reason it's acceptable and legal to disperse game resources without profit is covered specifically though not limited to the GNU Practical License and it's laws. It's lengthy stuff but cross-reference yourselves to that if you want to understand the underpinnings of how this works. Part though not all of it is relevant to the fact that many companies, game ones for example, tend to include lifetime warranties on their products that they can't realistically own up to. This is why it's legal for example to make a copy of a DVD you purchased. It isn't legal for you to give it away to anyone but it is legal to give it away to anyone who also had purchased the film at some point in their lives as they have a legal right to ownership the same as you and naturally disk roms just do not stand the test of time. It is however illegal to attempt to make profit on said reproduction. Hopefully that example clarifies.

3.) It is illegal to share native game files. Basically because it's no different than making a copy of the game and sharing it like a torrent. I won't say names but I can say I know of a community or more that went down partially for this reason. Originally some of them just mod files which the company in question was okay with. However (and I see some current examples out there right now of this, the Smash Bros community comes to mind) users began uploading and giving links to the games native files. What ends up happening over time is a person if inclined can basically go on the web site and between all the links provided download the game for free. That is of course a big no-no.

Hopefully that sort of clarifies it all. When you recycle an art resource it's really no different than taking a piece of art, making a stencil or print and slapping it on a shirt, poster, coffee cup, so on. It's when you cross the threshold and are actually pirating the product that you enter an area were you have committed a crime. In the end of the day as well the company that has ownership of a license reserves the right to it and personally I'm apt to respect that. Whether I made it from scratch or not if say Marvel or DC comics or their respective parent entities were to ask me to stop sharing my fanworks I would cease and desist without hesitation if no other reason than integrity. Though that's just my own personal deal, I expect no one else to adhere to my own swagger.

[Podmark]

My POV is that I'm not big on just porting over full models if they could be made using FF resources instead. This mostly comes down to consistency, which is a big personal tick. It'd be weird for me to be playing FF where all the characters are derived from male_basic, but then there's this Captain America that's from another source. Now I have no problem taking individual parts (hair, guns, etc) and adding them to an FF mesh. There's versatility advantages here as well as it's easier for other FF creators to use the individual parts for other projects than it is for full models. It also makes skinning easier as we can use bodies/bases we're familiar with.

Now when there's something that can't easily be done using FF resources - vehicles, unusual bodies, etc. That fine to me.
That's just my personal view and the above assumes all legal issues are clear and that credit is properly given.

[SickAlice]

I hear you about the consistency thing, thought about that a few times. I some cases it came down to for me that our body types at hand weren't what I wanted for the character. Like take Princess Peach for example. To me she clearly needed that look that screamed Peach, rather than female basic with Peach accessories. I considered the skinning things as well, particularly with Spider-man but then opted that I think most are up to the challenge of working with something different than what they're used to. Also part of the challenge I think is if the different body is at least conformed to what's standard here. Like again for example Peach. She's conformed to female basic so really one could get away with bringing any part onto that model and with maybe a little adjustment to the size make it work. Normally though I try and keep it as close to home as possible. It all just depends on the individual character and what look I'd like to see. In the case of the Iron Man's for example it was fine to work with a male basic mesh because the aesthetic of the character was retained. In the case of the Ultron I was talking about though I won't be doing that since his texture map is completely unique. Added while it wouldn't be impossible persay it would be an outright gregarious task for me to actually remap the whole thing and make closely match the male basic texture. I've tried that before and it's a really long process as well as frustrating to do. Mostly I'll try and keep in the family so to speak but I won't guarantee that will be the case all the time for said reasons when it comes to swaps. More over though I'm getting a bit thick here and my primary concern was just in knowing what the opinion was in the community about borrowing/clefting other works as I realized I never really bothered to ask anyone before.

[Podmark]

Yeah I'm largely happy with how you've handled things. Characters like Peach and Mario need those unique models. Admittedly I'm iffy with Spider-Man but I see what you were going for.

[SickAlice]

I'm iffy about Spidey as well so nothing to it. That was actually the one I tried to remap to male basic. I ended up about a week out redoing everything I messed up with nothing to show for it before throwing in the towel and deciding to release it as is. That's sort of a problem with swapping as well is that the sort of body mapping we use for Freedom Force is pretty much outmoded and most models after the millennium either use a map close to that Spidey or something even more complicated to texture. At worst I'll always include a wireframe, at best like Spidey I'll make a base skin as well and try and include a heatmap to help skinners understand the ins and outs. Really even it though can take a bit of flexing if you count the vertices on the texture you should be able to skin any game model out there granted going through a test run or two to figure out which way everything faces. I'm not found of the modern methods of mapping myself but I have learned a bit of why they do things like this as opposed to how they used to (prevents " bleeding " for example).

[Amazo Version 2.2]

while i agree that consistency is a good thing, i'd like all my avengers or justice league to have a similar feel to them, i like the idea of having a variety of body styles. having your villains have a different look than your heroes really seems like a sweet idea. also, i agree that characters like the mario set need a custom body frame in order to give them a proper look.

[SickAlice]

I went through (not really, my drive is a pigstye and I have a ton of organizing to do) and cemented all this. Here is where I'm at.

- The rest of the Spider-men: Omni-Powered, Armored and Teen will use the Marvel Heroes texture assignment. Sorry but I have too much already done on those. The Omni-Powered is actually finished again it's just the nightmare keyframes that I need to finish.

- Deadpool will not have male basic assignment. The whole idea of that one was to get the High Moon model in game here. It's not hard to skin and I'm including a base and heat map. If anyone needs help down the line I'm here.

- The female Spiders: Adult, teen and potentially Lady Spider (I have to try and work out the legs) will be female basic. I was going to use the base female model from MH but want to heed the request here. As well I've had bad luck with it and the results keep coming out junk anyways.

- All future releases will have conventional Freedom Force texture assignments or as close as I can get. Like when I attach hands I have to move some other parts so there's no overlap. Add ons will of course have their own skins, like Iron Man armor bits, Groots head and costume and so on. Capes and coats will deviate from the norm as I see fit though. I cape with a different shape is really not harder to texture than the usual if I ask me.

- Unconventional bodies will still retain their own mapping, like cartoon characters and robots and such.

* I keep getting requests to convert MH or COC models fully to the game and keep denying them. I'm going to try and make this simpler here. It's easier to take the costume parts and such from a model outside of this game and add them to male basic, female basic or whatever than to bring the whole body in. First there's the matter that most skinners prefer the Freedom Force texturing system. I agree with the logic of that as well it leaves the work open to have old skins applied, like C6's for example. Here's another run down of what the issue is though:


So the basics. The points between faces, that is triangles on the wireframe are vertices. Those are the points where the faces meet, like connect the dots. The information for movement is stored in those. The vertices are assigned to bones and then they follow whatever the keyframe says the bone needs to do. So like a real body the epidermis and muscle follow the bone movement. So of course when a piece isn't supposed to bend or breath it should be weighted, like armor pieces for example. The faces or ploygons then follow suit.

So in weight copying the idea is those vertices pick up the information stored in the nearest vertice to them on the original model. When the new model has that many more rows of vertices the tendency is that they pick up the information of the wrong vertice or none at all. When it animates it looks like junk. It looks like there's " living spikes " growing out of the character. In the case they picked up no information the vertice stays in place while the rest of the mesh moves. This is what I mean whenever I say " pinching " and " dragging "

So imagine a model that has say 8 times more vertices then a Freedom Force model. And imagine or even look at some examples, that this model is not mapped at all like a Freedom Force one is. My options are as follows: Move each vertice one at a time until they line up. Aside from the fact that entails a lot of guesswork that can easily go wrong most models are welded. Welded means the vertice joined to the next will move with it, so when I try and move that vertice another as well a whole chunk of the mesh moves with it and then we of course have a problem. The other method is to then take apart the model piece by piece and remap every part. In the case of welded models, which most game models are (this prevents seam rips during movement), this is of course then again a lot of work that opens up chances for error. In welded models I have to make multiple copies of the original than chop off everything except the part I want to texture from a given angle. Then the angle comes into play. Texturing is done by camera view, so from the front, back, top, bottom, left or right. If it isn't a Freedom Force model the problem automatically is that it's parts won't be positioned like a Freedom Force model. So the texture map won't match. As well the original basic models where unwrapped, they were not mapped by camera view which makes that process even more difficult and time consuming. In another case, like Marvel Heroes the shape of the body is so different from the Freedom Force one that the models can't ever be lined up uniformly. So even in just weight copying it will always come out wrong in the end no matter what is done to it.

So explaining this so no one thinks I'm blowing them off to be a dink. The bottom line is it's a very long process and easy to mess up as well while one persons wants are something to note so are what everyone wants and what works best for the whole. So I'm going to avoid bringing in whole Marvel Heroes, Contest Of Champions models as well I'm going to be shorter and blunt about requests regarding them now that I've stated the why's. I can bring in parts onto a normal model and make a facsimile though note that parts from other models don't magical conform to Freedom Force and sometimes trying to make them do so just makes for a terrible looking result. This is me rambling again yes but just to try and get an understanding out there as to why I'm not taking those requests which I've gotten now on average five of seven days of each week this month. I know sometimes we really really really really want something but that's not always feasible and as well what I want as well what I can actually do should be minded in this as well. I think it's okay if a game resource is not converted to Freedom Force as well if we just use something else that " looks enough " like the character. I'm not certain how I implied otherwise of myself and I'm sorry however I did as me grabbing and converting any model from any game is not what's going to be happening.

I'm going to note something here about why I'll deny a request because I think it needs to be said. If you don't the rest read this carefully:

1.) It isn't possible or at least probable for me to do. That should be straight forward. I say I can't do it (there's always a way) and I mean it doesn't work out for me. It's either going to be a pain in the endo for me or something. This is never personal. Just a matter of logistics.

2.) You insult my previous work especially when it was for your own request. I'm going to then be insulted and very hesitant to help you out in the future.

3.) You claim to be the master of meshing yourself basically. This a standard rule of life, don't be a big shot. It'll bite you in the arse. If your better than everyone at making content then you don't need my help. I'll help someone who does.

4.) You insult the work of others or just their person. What they did looks like crap? They didn't answer your request because they're dinks? Nope. Don't even suggest this. I appreciate every member of this community and the hard work they poor into it. Anything I learned and am learning to do was taught to me bu someone else. The greats: Vertex, INK, Valandar, Tommyboy, Gren, detourne_me, so on. Tommyboy in fact was my first teacher in all this and spent a lot of time showing me the ropes and for other games even. Don't step on his toes or anyone else or I will look the other way on your request. I take knowing anybody here as a privileged so I won't " know what you mean " if you try and validate your request by dissing anyone.

5.) It's already been made. We have had people working around the clock and for years, a decade even on content for this game. There's a good chance it exists already. I realized that link info has become out of date for both sites and the location of specific things (Yahoo groups especially) and am working on my end to make that easier. Still if it exists and your linked to it then the request is null. Usually my work is not going to look as good as theirs anyways, I'm a lazy skinner most days. And if your say at first that you know of the other work then ask me anyways, well see #4.

6.) You just requested it and I said yes then requested it again the next day, and the next. Use a little tact here okay? I'm working on it. Be patient. I've followed through on requests like this but that's pretty insulting. If I'm working on your request chances are I'm working on someone else at the same time. Being a kid about it like that is going to incline me to drop your request and work on someone elses. If a month goes by and you don't here anything asking whats going is acceptable. Implying I'm being a jerk to you or repeating your request multiple times in a week or day is not. This is just common sense.

7.) For profit. Your doing this for money. You paid someone else money for the thing your working. I don't do any of this profit and never will. As a freelance I've been in this situation more often than not. I do work for someone, they don't give me credit and they take all the profit. I'm no ones fool. Here however that doesn't apply. What applies is I don't do this profit and I can only say your putting yourself at risk by attempting it yourself. People don't like when others copyright their art and make money on it. I won't get into this again but there's an odd belief that if you do the art it belongs to regardless of if the copyright is someone else's. Wrong, read the law and don't do it. Or at least don't proposition me too. You have money to buy models and rights off people then you have money to pay that person to finish the work. You don't need a novice freelancer like me to help you. And if your boosting (see: big shot), stop and don't do it anymore. There may be one or two here I don't know but I can say most users here won't help you. If you don't agree with that it really doesn't matter. You won't sway me here and frankly I don't actually want or need your money.

Not to be a jerk. Okay sometimes very much to be a jerk but if I'm insulted I reserve the right as much as I reserve the right to not answer a request. I " want " to answer every request but this is the real world. I'm a slave to time and space and I'm also one to my own heart and feelings. Sorry again to be laying stuff like this out and ranting lately but I have some issues here I want to iron out before moving forward. I don't want to be one of those people who pulls out of the site because this turns into a chore and becomes a pain in the butt. I believe things in life can be worked out with a little communication so here it is. Let's work together as a team people, we'll make magical things happen if we do. This will be the last time I'll speak of this. I hope it hits home where it needs to as I hate leaving anyone in the dark.

[Podmark]

- All future releases will have conventional Freedom Force texture assignments or as close as I can get.

I definitely appreciate the effort here, but whatever works or makes sense for you.

[SickAlice]

Well like yourself or anyone I think I do anything for me but the fun is doing it for anyone else and seeing them use it. So more what works for anyone else is what matters to me on that end. Weighting a Freedom Force mesh is easier than any other actually and of course because they match right up with themselves, so really that saves me work. Using new bodies was more of an experiment to see how that would go and whether people would be into it. The majority of skinners like the classic mapping so I'll stick to that.

Okay, now that I'm done getting all Judge Judy up in here I have some resources myself I would like to share. These are some old Marvel specs I collected awhile ago. A long while actually, FFVTTR wasn't even released and I thought maps would be a breeze, but here I am still a novice in that area, lol. The first rar " locations " contains some really detailed stuff on various Marvel locales. The second " morespecs " contains blueprints and such for some Marvel vehicles, objects and for the original X-Mansion. I thought these may be of use to map makers and modders. I actually lost them online years ago and didn't locate them until recently (they were buried in a Mediafire account I no longer use). These are older specs, nothing real modern but if anyone can makes use of them feel free. I'd love to see what anyone can come up with. Actually any maps, mods, scripts, FX and hero files for FFVTTR are always wanted here since I'm not very good at making those things.