Pulp Heroes: A Resource for Pulp Afficondos

[kkhohoho]

So in the wake of my recent Pulp kick, I tried to find out as much on the different Pulp characters as I could. One Google search later, and I found this:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/pulphero.htm

As far as I can tell, it's got profiles on just about every Pulp hero you could think of, and even a few villains for good measure. Its' got everyone from the Shadow and Doc Savage to Black Star and Dr.Coffin, and I hadn't even heard of the last two until I found this site. It's also got characters from comic strips like the Phantom and Mandrake, and from radio shows likes Green Hornet and the Lone Ranger, so it's got about all the bases covered. If anyone's got even the slightest interest in the Pulps, then they owe it to themselves to give this a look, because it's a heck of a fascinating read.

[BentonGrey]

I discovered this while I was working on my pulp mod.  It's a good resource, though I wish it were a bit better maintained and had a bit more info.  There's just not that much out there about most of these characters, I suppose.  Good idea making this available for folks, Kk.

[kkhohoho]

So I've been trying to get into the various Pulp Heroes lately, the key word being 'try.' Don't get me wrong; I still plan on getting into them, and I've already started with a few of them like the Shadow, Mandrake, and Tarzan, all of which are awesome and kickass characters that deserve more love then they get these days. But given just how many of these guys there are and the rather... extensive catalog some of these heroes have, it's still going to take some doing and a LONG amount of time to really go through everything. So I figured I might as well just use this thread here I cooked up a few days ago and use it for any questions or problems I've got as I dive into the Pulps. Starting with Doc Savage.

Here's the problem with Doc Savage. It's not that I have anything against the character, but his first book (The Man of Bronze,) is just. So. BAD. There aren't any real problems with the plot so far, but the writing is just flat out atrocious. Take a look at this passage here:

'Above the eightieth floor, an ornamental observation tower jutted up a full hundred and fifty feet more. The metal work of this was in place, but no masonry had been laid. Girders lifted a gigantic steel skeleton. The naked beams were a sinister forest. It was in this forest that Death prowled. Death was a man."

The writing is just so overly showy and flowery that it's a struggle for me to get through it. Either I wrack my brains around how this could have possibly produced a long-running franchise of 180+ novels along with various comics and even a movie, or I just can't stop myself from laughing at the sheer ridiculousness of it. Now to be fair, I've skimmed through a few later novels, and from the looks of things, the writing gets much better. It's not Shakespeare, but it at least gets the job done. But I just can't see myself getting into this from this first novel alone, if only because of the writing style.

Does anyone know of a good jumping on point for Doc? It doesn't even have to be one of the old Pulps; it can be a comic or what have you. (Though it can definitely still be one of the pulps.) But I'd just like to start with something that, in terms of the writing style, actually makes sense.

[daglob]

The first one I read was "The Squeaking Goblin", which actually wasn't one of the good ones. I'd read maybe 20 books by the time I found a copy of The Man of Bronze. I was also about 14. Now, when I re-read them, it's like I'm meeting old friends I haven't seen in awhile. The early ones are aimed at teenage boys, with enough action and adventure to keep an adult from getting too bored. You are right, though, the series changed and matured as time passed in content as well as writing.

Yeah, the first few months or so all the stories were done by committee, and the writing was... florid would be a good description. I liked Hex, Land of Always-Night, Cold Death (which I re-read lately and wasn't quite as good as I remember). The Red Skull, The Pirate of the Pacific, and The Polar Treasure are pretty good adventures. The Secret in the Sky and Murder Melody were also two of my favorites, but, as I said, I was 14 or so. My personal opinion is that the stories from 1936-1939 are the best, but older readers may like the ones from 1944 on. Most of these are strict mysteries with gimmicks, not world threatening super gadgets. You might look for those. There is a list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doc_Savage_novels

The last story, Up from Earth's Center, was a re-write of a tale Dent had written for Argosy, and then, as the story goes, he removed the logical explanation of demons and hell at the end by editorial decree. It is probably my least favorite.

I have a friend who swears by The Sea Magician.

Wait 'til you read Captain Future...

[GhostMachine]

For Doc Savage, I recommend The Freckled Shark. I've only read a few Doc Savage stories (and own a copy of Doc Savage His Apocalyptic Life by Philip Jose Farmer), but I'm more of a Shadow fan.

The Shadow pulps are a lot different than the radio show. For one thing, in the pulps the Shadow isn't really Lamont Cranston. Cranston is a real person that the Shadow strongly resembles and he lets the Shadow pose as him.

[daglob]

One thing: if you look at the list I posted the link for, the stories by Harold Davis and Alan Hathaway are the weakest. Dent re-wrote some of them, but neither man had the pizazz that Dent did.

And Ghostmachine is right, The Shadow is, in general, better.

Then there is The Spider. The Spider compares to The Shadow the way scotch on the rocks compares to warm tequila no salt no lemon no nothing. Not for everybody, but, boy, whata rush (at least after Grant [Norvell Page] Stockbridge gets comfortable with the series). The Spider tends to suck you right in and not let up 'til the end, because if you stop and think you will see plot holes you could fly a Spruce Goose through.

The Phantom Detective is kind of a cross between The Shadow and Doc Savage, not as good as either, but not bad at all. The Avenger is pretty good, but the earlier stories are better, before he fixed his face. Then there is The Black Bat, The Purple Scar, The Black Hood, Thunder Jim Wade, Captain Hazard, The Masked Detective, The Whisperer, The Green Lama, The Green Ghost, The Moon Man, Secret Agent X, Operator 5, Norgil the Magician, The Phantom Marksman, and a horde of others who appeared in their own magazines or had series in other publications. Quality varies, as you might expect, but often there is a kind of raw energy, I guess you'd call it. This doesn't even touch on Conan, Kull, Jules de Grandin, Jongor, Peter The Brazen, Kliht (sp?) the Cossack, Zenith Rand, Hawk Carse, Hopalong Cassidy, or Zorro.

It's also obvious from some of these tales that the writer was being paid by the word...

[kkhohoho]

For Doc Savage, I recommend The Freckled Shark. I've only read a few Doc Savage stories (and own a copy of Doc Savage His Apocalyptic Life by Philip Jose Farmer), but I'm more of a Shadow fan.

The Shadow pulps are a lot different than the radio show. For one thing, in the pulps the Shadow isn't really Lamont Cranston. Cranston is a real person that the Shadow strongly resembles and he lets the Shadow pose as him.

I'm actually really interested in checking the Shadow novels out, because as much as I like the radio show, something about the novels and what I've heard about them, I dunno; it just sort of appeals to me more, if that makes any sense. The problem though is there are just so many of them that it's kind of overwhelming. Even Doc Savage and the Phantom Detective, as long running as their series were, still only had around 180 novels or so. The Shadow on the other hand had over 300 of them, most of them a whopping 150 or so pages in length. It isn't that much compared to your average 300 pager or a doorstopper, but it's not exactly something you can breeze over in a day or two either, at least for me. That's what's been putting me off of reading the Shadow, because as much as I want to check it out, it almost feels like too much of an undertaking.

And yeah Daglob, I've been reading up on just about everybody you've mentioned. Most of them are on that Pulp site I linked to in the first post, so I've been doing my homework. I plan on getting to them at some point, but again, with how many of them there are and just how much material there is, it's going to take a while to get through it all.

[daglob]

I've been working on them for 48 years...

[GhostMachine]

For the Shadow, check your local library and look for either Maxwell Grant or Walter B. Gibson as the author. That's how I first reason some of the Shadow pulps, because a lot were published as hardback books.

The Spider is pretty good, but I've only read a handful of stories. The big difference between him and the Shadow is that the Spider is a cold-blooded killer, while the Shadow only kills if he has no other choice....or if the villain really deserves it. While the Spider has no problem dispatching bad guys just because he could.

And kkhohoho, check the thread you started about the Shadow radio show.

[Deaths Jester]

Actually, if you want to learn a lot about the pulps and such over the years they were strongest, I recommend the 1983 multi-book character studies by Robert Sampson entitled Yesterday's Faces: A Study of Series Characters in the Early Pulp Magazines . There are about 6 books in the whole series and it takes you through the many different archetypes that appeared over the pulp years and breaks most of the character that appeared regularly into them (some via time line, some not). 

[daglob]

Actually, if you want to learn a lot about the pulps and such over the years they were strongest, I recommend the 1983 multi-book character studies by Robert Sampson entitled Yesterday's Faces: A Study of Series Characters in the Early Pulp Magazines . There are about 6 books in the whole series and it takes you through the many different archetypes that appeared over the pulp years and breaks most of the character that appeared regularly into them (some via time line, some not).

For some ridiculous reason I imagined that I was the only one who bought that series. Robert Sampson used to be a great source for pulp reprints, and Popular Press did several other pulp resource  books.

[BentonGrey]

Wow, this thread totally exploded while I was out today.  Awesome! 

Kk, your post cracked me up.  Yeah, ha, there is a reason that the pulps acquired a reputation as disposable fiction...and it's not entirely unearned.  There are some real gems in there, but there's also a good deal of stuff that is energetic and little else.  Nonetheless, I do love the era and the characters it produced.  There was an enthusiastic creativity and vitality, a certain panache that has rarely been captured again on the same scale (perhaps Silver Age comics could compare on some levels).  These authors are tossing out concepts and ideas left and right.  Some of them fall flat, some never get enough room to grow, but some are exciting and memorable.  There are lost cities, forgotten civilizations, and amazing wonders around every corner.  They aren't really literature, for the most part, but they are utterly foundational for our culture's concept of the fantastic.  The pulps created the grammar for our language of the imagination. 

I'm the opposite of DG and GM, in that I prefer Doc Savage to the Shadow, at least judging by the few books of each I've read.  I like the globe-trotting adventures of Doc and his crew more than the (more) urban adventures of the Shadow. 

Yeah, the first Doc book is pretty rough, but Dent does improve as he goes.  Let me second DG's recommendation of The Polar Treasure and also recommend The Fortress of Solitude and Fear Cay.  Fortress is one of my favorite Doc story so far, and it features John Sunlight, one of his greatest villains.  This story is also recommended background reading for my mod!    I'm also currently enjoying the Marvel black and white Doc Savage magazine from the 70s, which is available on Comixology Unlimited:
https://www.comixology.com/Doc-Savage-Archives/comics-series/19724?ref=c2VhcmNoL2luZGV4L2Rlc2t0b3Avc2xpZGVyTGlzdC9zZXJpZXNTbGlkZXI

They're fun, but they can be a bit clunky and ham-handed at times (meaning not too different from the pulps, I suppose, though often a little less sophisticated). 

In terms of other characters, I myself haven't read most of those that DG mentioned.  I've encountered most of the pulp materials I have through the radio, TV, or movies, only recently getting into the books themselves.  I will say, though, that the John Carter novels are among some of the best.  They probably rise above the crowd of disposable adventure fiction more often than any other character's works I've encountered.  They're still definitely pulp fiction, and very much products of their time (SUPER sexist, a bit racist at times, the usual), but they also dig a little deeper from time to time (The Gods of Mars, in particular). 

I've read a few Spider stories, and they generally aren't as good as Doc or The Shadow, but there is one that you really should read, just because of how incredibly prescient it was and what it says about the fragility of liberty, and that's Empire State.  It's been collected in nice paperback, and it's definitely worth reading.

Also, DJ, I'm so glad you mentioned that series.  That sounds absolutely fascinating.  I've just added it to my Amazon list.

[Deaths Jester]

BG, I want to warn you that getting the first book of the series maybe expensive. Last time I checked it was going for $80 or so. The rest are going for about $ 18 a piece.

Glob, you're right,. Sampson was a wonderful source for pulp info and his knowledge was extensive. As for the books and knowing about them/owning them you have to remember, I'm an obscure-aholic when it comes to pulps and Marvel comics.

[daglob]

Right now Amazon has some used HC copies of #1 for $6.57. If you are interested, you had better get it quick because, like DJ, last time I saw it the price was $80.00.

Edit: looking though some of the other volumes, most are less than $20.00. The last one is OVER $80.00.

A couple of others I bought from Robert Sampson:

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Pulp-Heroes-Don-Hutchison/dp/0889625859/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471478898&sr=1-8&keywords=pulp+history

https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Excitements-Phantoms-Robert-Sampson/dp/0879724501/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WYE9RF5DG8W2Y93P2WNW

A different resource (Amazon has several copies of the newer more expensive edition. Maybe next month) by SF writer Ron Goulart:

https://www.amazon.com/Cheap-thrills-informal-history-magazines/dp/0870001728/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471479052&sr=1-3&keywords=cheap+thrills+ron+goulart

The most recent one I got but the first one I wanted:

https://www.amazon.com/Pulps-Fifty-Years-American-Culture/dp/0394441869/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471479360&sr=1-4-fkmr2&keywords=pulps+tony+goodwin

Lots of electronic pulp:

http://wildsidepress.com/

[kkhohoho]

Yeah, the first Doc book is pretty rough, but Dent does improve as he goes.  Let me second DG's recommendation of The Polar Treasure and also recommend The Fortress of Solitude and Fear Cay.  Fortress is one of my favorite Doc story so far, and it features John Sunlight, one of his greatest villains.  This story is also recommended background reading for my mod!    I'm also currently enjoying the Marvel black and white Doc Savage magazine from the 70s, which is available on Comixology Unlimited:
https://www.comixology.com/Doc-Savage-Archives/comics-series/19724?ref=c2VhcmNoL2luZGV4L2Rlc2t0b3Avc2xpZGVyTGlzdC9zZXJpZXNTbGlkZXI

They're fun, but they can be a bit clunky and ham-handed at times (meaning not too different from the pulps, I suppose, though often a little less sophisticated).

Funny you should mention that. I just checked out the first two issues of the color series that Marvel ran back in 1972, and it's pretty good stuff. It's an adaption of The Man of Bronze, but while it still has plenty of narration, (largely thanks to being a 70's comic, which were loaded to the gills with the stuff,) most of it is nowhere near as bad as in the actual novel, and like most 70's comics, you can just skip most of it with no harm done. It's still not great, but it was at least enjoyable for me to actually get through the thing, unlike the novel.

In terms of other characters, I myself haven't read most of those that DG mentioned.  I've encountered most of the pulp materials I have through the radio, TV, or movies, only recently getting into the books themselves.  I will say, though, that the John Carter novels are among some of the best.  They probably rise above the crowd of disposable adventure fiction more often than any other character's works I've encountered.  They're still definitely pulp fiction, and very much products of their time (SUPER sexist, a bit racist at times, the usual), but they also dig a little deeper from time to time (The Gods of Mars, in particular).

True that. I haven't actually read the John Carter books, but I have read Tarzan, and shock of all shocks, but the writing actually *Gasp!* makes sense! As in, it reads like an actual darn book (which also makes sense because it technically was a book rather than a Pulp, but I digress,) rather than a hackjob. And the character of Tarzan along with the story are pretty good too. Burroughs was a cut above the average Pulp writer, a fact he himself knew. It's why he even got into the business in the first place: "...if people were paid for writing rot such as I read in some of those magazines, [then] I could write stories just as rotten. As a matter of fact, although I had never written a story, I knew absolutely that I could write stories just as entertaining and probably a whole lot more so than any I chanced to read in those magazines." The man deserves a goshdarn salute, seriously.

I've read a few Spider stories, and they generally aren't as good as Doc or The Shadow, but there is one that you really should read, just because of how incredibly prescient it was and what it says about the fragility of liberty, and that's Empire State.  It's been collected in nice paperback, and it's definitely worth reading.

Maybe. Going by the description on Amazon, it sounds like a helluva book, at least for your average Pulp novel. (Or Superhero comic for that matter.) I'll want to check out some earlier Spider stories first though, to get a feel for the character, but maybe then I'll give it a shot.

Also, DJ, I'm so glad you mentioned that series.  That sounds absolutely fascinating.  I've just added it to my Amazon list.

Same here. In fact, it's already shipped. It definitively sounds like a darn interesting read, that's for sure.

[RTTingle]

I have a ton of the original Shadow pulps saved as txt files.

[GhostMachine]

i have a ton of them as PDFs. And three Spider PDFs. I used to have some Doc Savage ones (only about 4 pr 5), but lost them.

They're not pulps, obviously, but I also own some of the Phantom novels published in the 70s. Bought them from a bookstore when I was a kid back in the 80s.

[daglob]

i have a ton of them as PDFs. And three Spider PDFs. I used to have some Doc Savage ones (only about 4 pr 5), but lost them.

They're not pulps, obviously, but I also own some of the Phantom novels published in the 70s. Bought them from a bookstore when I was a kid back in the 80s.

Luck-eee! Those are being reprinted in a larger more expensive format.

https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-Complete-Novels-Story-Ghost/dp/1613451121/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1471616147&sr=1-2&keywords=the+phantom+falk