State Of The Industry

[SickAlice]

I suppose should start this somewhere for anyone that needs to let it out. I encourage venting here but mind the site rules. Also please try not to fight, remember everyone is just giving their own opinion on the matter and everyone is stressed out right now for more reasons than anyone should have to cope with currently.

I'm somewhat nonplussed myself. I don't have much going for me other than working and comics are the one thing I look forward to every week. I do think this needed to happen. The fact that the industry was locked in a sense that most vendors where stuck with one distribution company was only another thing keeping the industry from growing especially in an era where print is under fire. On the other I think companies should have been trying to do something before this especially the big two. Sucks as a reader though of course. I looked up and down because I wanted this to be an April Fools joke. I do believe the industry will survive. It never seems to follow the rules of any other than it's own. Likewise at least the big two are owned and backed by parent companies and for at least one of them the franchises other venues are based on are the companies breadwinners right now so I can't see them allowing it all to sink. Sort of like letting the heart go bad while knowing the rest of the body depends on it. The little guy however, sadly I imagine is going to have to change things for awhile and personally as a lot of those indy rags are my favorites.

[BentonGrey]

Unfortunately, years and years of short-sighted business practices and terrible narrative choices have left the industry (in terms of the big two) in a pretty precarious place, and this current crisis is exacerbating that.  However, there is hope:
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/today-the-comic-shops-direct-market-was-saved/

There's a plan in place to have LCSs sell digital comics and link them to print comics that can be redeemed in the future.  That's an elegant solution, really.

Measures like this could keep things going, at least if they can get the word out.

[SickAlice]

That's a good plan really. I always liked that most of the people working on any side of the industry are loyal to the LCS's. I can't remember the name but it was an X-Men writer, I think it may have been CC, anyways I was reading that they had bought a bunch of their own TPB's to pay back an LCS owner with down syndrome for all the sales over the years when his biz wasn't doing so well. I thought to myself that my at the time LCS owner had the condition and went and checked and sure enough it was his place and he showed me all this autographed X-Men stuff. Kind of my shimmering hope is there's so much heart and dedication in the comic industry, it's not like you're usual factory line. I think that attitude will keep it above water and really has through many hard times.

Oh yeah, you're Inbox is full friend, released the Turtles stuff I promised.

[SickAlice]

Yeah, I tend to get a little too wordy but that's something I was trying to spell out especially the "let's face it" part. I brought it up online previously and even the head honchos of the independent publishers have kicked the ball around themselves but usually met with denial and hostility when trying to do so. It's a perception thing I think. When looking at the numbers for superhero comics sales alone it seems like everything has always been hunky dory but when then putting them in with the entire economic matrix not at all. Most fans tend not to do the latter simply because, well they like their comics and wouldn't want doubts. No different then fans despising change in the art against their own personal sense of nostalgia. But it stands the industry was hurting and that's from within the walls of the already hurting print industry itself. It "was" a good model for it's day back in the day mind you, same as say record stores were. Now though in a shifted landscape and an economy that is say brittle and even long standing big name companies can bottom out in one bad move in the course of a few months it just doesn't fit anymore. As much as it even can pain me to say myself the truth is the industry must be reinvented and should have a long time ago if it is to continue and be around for our childrens-childrens children. Like many other things it is dictated by an abstract system and not it's owners nor clients overall and thus has to evolve in order to thrive even against the personal wants of the people. I think this often against any complaint, even my own specifics. I see something new and think as anyone else does it's silly that they changed it the way they did but then I remind myself that if it has, it probably needs to be that way and is probably working as such. Like maybe a bad example but we don't see comic covers of a character punching Hitler in the face anymore unless of course it's done in jest. It just isn't that era anymore so it doesn't sell and sell, like it or not, is what any product has to do in order to stay in the game, artistry be be damned. Again I think it will survive, I think because there's interest in having it do so but it's going to have to change and in a major way if it is to really do so in spite of what any of us would want it to do.

[SickAlice]

Exactly though, I hear ya. But as far as record store owners and nostalgics it did. They felt under attack at the time and of course just as people who are hardcore genre fans feel under attack when a new generations music becomes popular. But they're wrong of course, just like we tend to be wrong when it comes to comic books. And I get it, some comics represent a simpler time for me but really it's projection. The world itself only seemed better because I was young and thus in a better more flexible mindset. Really the world was and is always as it was. And industry is not exempt from that natural factor. And art is a product, they aren't going to stop selling a product and making money especially the people who support their families with it. Likewise again one that's industry based on the print has recently done so incredibly well. It will be around is the point but, will have to change and a lot of people may not be happy about it. Yet cars have to change fuel type over time, in our lifetimes even and people aren't happy about that, yet they have to else no cars. It just is. And yeah I agree, the fact that it took at least the big two, can't really put it on the little guy here, this long and this type of event to get with the program pretty much sucks. Had they gotten ahead of it sooner and they should have given they are large enough to understand market projections we may have not been in a situation where we were finding ourselves locked inside with no new comics to read. But they didn't, I hope they all learn from that mistake. Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. Granted it took me decades in my life of falling on my face to accept the truth of that but that's a little different than running a company and again especially in the current fragile landscape it exists.

As for how quick I beg to differ. Thing is DC is owned by a larger parent company as is Marvel. It's likely at some point the brass will step in and enforce something if nothing gets better fast enough. Those people really don't like losing their investments regardless of what the people who run the DC or Marvel end of things wants personally for it and as cold as it may sound I understand why they do that because again else...no car (comics). People like WB and Disney did not get as high up as they are nor as far through hard times without understanding these practices and likewise both comic companies sold to them for the reason they wanted those larger companies expansion and reach, so whether it's something or not they want they'll get it. I do think it will take "some" time, but it will be subjective and relatively short on a long game timeline. Sorry if that's all punchy, I know. I was sent to school for projections and pars for a former job so this stuff stands out to me. Oddly so does the coronavirus on a side note as another job put me through pathogens class at a big college. I suppose we'll all see but I do say this much, be ready to adapt with the market as it does. It's easier than stressing yourself because the nature of the art has changed. Easier to try and keep a fresh open mind and perspective I mean, I've found this has made various things I'm a fan of like comics and video games much more enjoyable and sway me from falling into the trap of cynicism which is a very easy hole to fall down into and hard one to climb out of.

Otherwise damn I wish I had some new issues to read in confinement. At least the X-Men and Ninja Turtles stuff lol. I can only get with this whole streaming movie service so much, it's just never been my type of thing. Then again as always I have the TPB/back issue save. If nothing works just read the stuff that does bring you joy again and rekindle the feeling of the day you first did. Like the skeleton in the story who wants the empty whine bottle he cannot drink because having it brings back the memory of a fond time it may seem silly on the surface but it does work.

[SickAlice]

They did unfortunately it was vintage common stuff that everyone probably already owns. It is a good idea but really if they wanted to sink their hooks in they should have put some of the new releases online, that would have pulled enough numbers in. Their concern is how this would effect the LCS's but in projections that loss could have been recovered as well the LCS's are already sustaining the loss currently regardless with no new comics to sell and most being closed as non-essential business types.

[HarryTrotter]

So we had Erik Larsen and some other industry people dust off the old piracy canard. Even ignoring the big fact he gets paid regardless of the book sales,piracy is a very minor problem in grand scheme of things. You couldn't hand out most of this stuff for free. People just don't care for the current Super Special Awesome Event that's going to be retconed in a few months anyway.

[BentonGrey]

I'm curious how many people are pirating new stuff.  In my (admittedly very limited) experience, I think people are more interested in tracking down digital versions of older material, especially stuff not easily available for purchase.

[Silver Shocker]

Eh. I don't have a lot to add. The thing is, and I've touched on this before, digital content (Comixology, Marvel Digital Comics Unlimited, Dark Horse Digital) is conveniently available, can be streamed from your phone/tablet, and is cheap, and often on sale.

I would imagine what gets pirated often is foreign comics (manga, European) that aren't widely available in officially localized form, and licensed stuff that's not available due to rights issues. (Valiant Super Mario Bros, ect)

What's more often pirated, as I've mentioned often, is stuff that's prohibitively expensive and inconvenient to acquire.

[HarryTrotter]

Morality is irrelevant in this case. Because I doubt anyone cares enough to pirate Savage Dragon. Nobody read that since 1998.
People pirating stuff implies an interest in the product (movies get pirated and people still went to cinemas). And that's not really there. So the idea that they would pay 4$ per issue of a 30-something issue crossover is even more ludicrous.

[HarryTrotter]

So from time to time I do run into people claiming that comics have never been more popular or something similar...well,yes,but actually no. Manga is doing great,like over half of all comic sales in the US. Childrens books are doing well. And then in the distant third place,with around 16% of the market we get to superhero comics and licenced comics.

And as easy as it is to blame Marvels and DCs political preachiness for this,fact is they have been digging their own graves for some 20 odd years now. And here we are; Zoomers don't care about Batman or Spider-Man,they care about My Hero academia and One Punch Man.

TLDR version- the medium is doing well,but the big American publishers are digging themselves deeper and deeper.

[mac402]

Once in a couple of years I force myself to read something new from the big 2 and it always ends up making me go back to their older stuff, at least pre-2010. Nostalgia maybe, but then again it's not about re-reading your favorite stories. Reading something new written in 80s/90s/00s ends up a better choice, even despite that some elements from the older stories now feel anachronistic. Can't exactly pinpoint what is wrong nowadays but I could rant about some things I've noticed. Manga and its popularity is a good contrast here. It has its distinct style and while there are many subgenres (much broader than superhero comics) you at least know what to expect. Same used to be true for DC/Marvel, at least you knew what you were getting. Nowadays it seems they can't make up their mind what they want to be, so they are randomly trying new things and it scares the readers away. Also the writers seemed to respect the setting and character they were tasked to write much more. What do comic book writers think is cool nowadays? Most of the new titles were like:
- try so hard to show how mature your stories are by adding comical amounts of sensless gore and turn everything grim and sour to the point of making it either depressive or ridiculous in a vain attempt to copy Alan Moore/Frank Miller
- constantly disrupt status quo, each next story must have more shocking value than the last, mandatory kill/destroy/maim something dear to the main hero or just kill/maim/break him and replace with some new guy, so readers never know who's starring in the title
- spur out all-encompasing events starring dozens of characters (most of which do nothing meaningful or serve as background) that change the multiverse only to be superceded by another world-changing event three months later
- heroes acting out of character just for the sake of the the plot that the witer invented
- inflation of new characters, that don't get any development anyway and get left in a limbo, as even newer characters replace them only to meet the same fate
- reinventing already established characters with no regards to previous events, effectively losing most of the character development in the process
So basically I feel there should be more heroic adventures instead all of those things I listed above. Also the writers should get less freedom in regards to screwing with the setting.
(I don't even mention preachiness and political pandering too much as it's obvious this has to go. No one likes being preached. You dont's see the mangas do it, go figure.)

[HarryTrotter]

As played out as themes of friendship and perseverance are,at least manga has those and people can latch on to that and find it relatable in some way. Superhero comics don't have themes now,they have nothing really. It's heroes are 30-something man-children who stand for whatever pet peeve the writers have that month.

But that's today,and is just a symptom of much bigger issues that have been pilling up for over 20 years. Remember when they started killing off all the characters 90's kids liked? Or when they outright refused to "pander" to kids? Or how they never figured out the internet? Or how they decided on the "Silver Age with blood" approach to writing? The list is endless here...

Oh,and even when they did try to copy manga,they just went with big-eyed-artstyle,never even considering people might care for themes and characters.

But most importantly,they completely missed a whole generation. So Zoomers who grew up with Naruto are now imto Demon Slayer.

[UnkoMan]

Does anybody here read Copra?

I can't recommend it enough. It's a self published comic (though they briefly went through Image) with a single creator. Issues don't come out monthly, due to this, however, it's had a good run. The art is interesting, unique, and fantastic. The story is original but the characters are VERY familiar.
Basically they are a pastiche of classic Suicide Squad, but there's a Punisher, a Dr Strange. Half the fun is spotting the references. (EVERY character is a reference to SOMETHING.)
Even if they weren't, however, the story stands good on its own!

Frankly it's some of the best "super hero" stuff in the last decade.

[Randomdays]

Bringing the thread back to the dead, in a way.

Like most people here, I check out the newer books when they come, out, but I seldom buy any more. What killed it for me was what Mac402 mentioned, everything is too "grimdark" and the mega story lines like "House of M" and "Civil War", where you had to go broke to get the entire story.

As for what SD said about industry heads wouldn't be where they are if they didn't know what they were doing, I'll disagree a bit with that. If you look any industry where some someone has their own picture of what the public wants and will pay for, and they won't listen to other input, the industry suffers. When Disney came out with "John Carter", and it flopped, the head of the studio got fired. Disney is now pushing really hard with the live action remakes of their classics, and these are a mixed bag in my opinion when they "modernize" them too much. I think they're catching on to what a major disaster "Snow White" is going to be.

I don't follow DC too much anymore, but with Marvel, from what I remember, Joe Quesada decided he didn't want Peter and Mary Jane married anymore, no matter what the writers and fans wanted. Characters that have been around with 50+ of history have their race, sex, orientation changed, just to please a vocal minority, even if it drives away other readers. Changing a character to me shows some disrespect to the original creator, but I guess its easier than creating a new character.

When the various Marvel Movies, both MCU and not, first came out, Marvel had a deal with GIT labs to put either a CD set or DVD out of every issue in PDF of that comic to buy. Depending on the comic, you could get 400 issues for about 10 cents USA each.

As each new movie came out, I'd pick up the DVD comic set for it. Unfortunately, they stopped before my favorite, Thor, came out, but still most of the Marvel characters made it to disk before they moved to their website "rental" program. GIT also came out with a complete collection of Mad Magazine and some different Archie sets. I also added to them for my collection by scanning some my own complete sets I had, like Marvel Team up, Marvel Two and One, and Warlock,etc

GIT also got the rights to put all the Star Trek comics by various publishers on disk, and the entire Valiant collection on a USB; All of GIT's stuff is still available on ebay and elsewhere, but a bit more pricey than it used to be.

https://valiantentertainment.com/2019/04/01/git-corp-unleashes-valiant-the-complete-digital-comic-book-collection/

So, I've got tons of legitimate comics to read, complete with all the ads, letter pages, etc in them. And when I do read them, I generally stay in the Silver/ Bronze age era. The late 80's and 90's stories, and the artists that drew them, are a big step down over all for me, for Marvel, DC and the other publishers from that era.

End of rant

[HarryTrotter]

In the years since I last commented here,not a lot changed.

Marvel is doing another Infinity thing last I checked. And DC is I guess still doing Dark Metal something? And everyone keeps renumbering everything back to #1,still.

There is an interesting documentary (World of Darkness) about Vampire The Masquerade and White Wolf Studios; and how it all went from a cultural phenomenon to one guy in an office licensing away the IPs. And that's basically the trajectory Marvel and DC are on.

[Aewulf]

Since it's last Crisis story, DC has spent two years building up to a showdown between Amanda Waller and its superheroes.  That crossover was actually quite effective if you read the several stories that led up to and the several comics supporting the four-issue story.  The story "all-in" has shuffled around some creative teams and had DC introduce its own version of the Ultimate Universe.  It's had some engaging Black Label stories and interesting minis by Tom King and Ram V. 

I cannot speak about Marvel (keep meaning to catch up).  I just know that trying to make sense of everything X-men will work like a sleeping pill on me. 

[HarryTrotter]

So DC is in a middle of another reboot? Again.

IDW rebooted TMNT. IDK if it got a soft or a hard reboot.

Valiant is doing a reboot. Or a restart in their case?

It's reboots all the way down.

[Aewulf]

It really isn't a reboot.  They just ended the Amanda Waller story that had been in the background since Dark Crisis and had one-shot to explain the creation of an Absolute Universe.  I read the stories that were the foreground for the Absolute Justice storyline (told in 4 issues and continued in another mini and several regular comics).  It was far less irritating than those Marvel storylines that carried over in almost every comics.