If there were a new freedom force or freedom force successor....

[Deaths Jester]

Deaths Jester , In this case, is just you see what i wrote first and if Benton would not have liked, i would have deleted. Benton sent this mod to me in private and the link that him sent for me has the mod posted in another topic of this forum. Ask to him !

That was sent privately to you and only to you, not to everyone else like it sounded you ended up doing - per the conversation seen in BG's thread.  There is a big difference between the two, mate.  It still falls on the fact you did it without his permission or showing the respect to ask him to do it...not on Benton having shared it with you privately.  That's a big difference and I know Benton well, this isn't on him by any means.

Points to this exact line from his most recent post in his mod posting for clarity on the fact you overstepped yourself:

Benton:  Borgaster, I'm glad that you are so fond of my work, and thank you for trying to preserve it.  You probably should have checked with me before uploading it, as that is what we do here at FR, and I had reasons for removing it when I did.

[Borgaster]

Deaths Jester , In this case, is just you see what i wrote first and if Benton would not have liked, i would have deleted. Benton sent this mod to me in private and the link that him sent for me has the mod posted in another topic of this forum. Ask to him !

That was sent privately to you and only to you, not to everyone else like it sounded you ended up doing - per the conversation seen in BG's thread.  There is a big difference between the two, mate.  It still falls on the fact you did it without his permission or showing the respect to ask him to do it...not on Benton having shared it with you privately.  That's a big difference and I know Benton well, this isn't on him by any means.

Deaths Jester, i wrote for him right now apologizing, but when i posted the mod, he never complained. Benton for me is a friend and i thought that was helping and not harming because the others want the mod too. Just it !

Points to this exact line from his most recent post in his mod posting for clarity on the fact you overstepped yourself:

Benton:  Borgaster, I'm glad that you are so fond of my work, and thank you for trying to preserve it.  You probably should have checked with me before uploading it, as that is what we do here at FR, and I had reasons for removing it when I did.

[Deaths Jester]

..and yet for him to be your friend, you didn't respect him enough at the time to ask him for permission first....<shakes head>...

[Borgaster]

Deaths Jester, you don't are him. Again, him sent for me a link that has the mod in another topic of this forum that is public and not private. Only now he said this for me because when i posted the mod in your topic he didn't complain. On the contrary, we talk a lot and he thanked me several times for praising your work. I already apologized to him and this is that we do when we make a mistake with a friend. What more do you need ? I can pray the rosary if you want too(LOL).

[Omegaprime]

Well, that seemed a bit rude. DJ's "disrespect" comment seems well aimed.

Each person's experiences are unique, and what worked for you may not work for others. The character generator is not infringement, but what people do with it could be.

As for stagnation, as said by DJ and Tomato, this game is 20 years old. There are tons of newer games that were wildly popular that are forgotten now, while FF hangs in there. And yet there's still nothing that does what it does. The wealth of content from people over the years, including Tomato and DJ, is enormous. While I can't "create" from scratch, I've learned a bit on what the game can do with characters, rigging, map mapping, fx's, etc, and added what I could to the game to open new possibilities.

Many people have found the game, been active, and have moved on. A twenty year old college kid would now be 40 and have a lot less free time with work and family.

As for closed minds, yours seem to be a bit that way, and you've already made up your mind  that you're right and no one else is.

Bearded and Alex both were working on alternate game platforms to replace FF. Both are enormously talented and had issues with what they were working on. And many of the people who are both gone and are still here DID help with those projects.


Take a look at what they've done, make some (technical) suggestions on how to help, learn unity if you haven't and start your own project. We'll help if we can. I see nothing constructive in your comments though. I don't know either DJ or Tomato very well, but I have respect for them because of their knowledge, and at least they've created items for the game that are well done (if sometimes a little weird) and so far as I've seen, they're  not condescending to others on the forums.

Already doing that, started last year around march when I got the same negative backlash and realized the lack of solidarity in the community and saw that though very helpful and willing to help individually the community is very much suffering from the image comics dilemma, I don't believe in using warner and Disney characters or paying anyone, but I do see a lack of solidarity because of C&D orders and yes I can be rude or as i like to call it, brutally honest. There is enough talent in the community, even on the shallow end, you have an isolated tester group, multiple animaters and skinners, beginner to advanced coders and quite a few I have noticed are fluent with unity, i'm a novice with unity but have a broader art background, plus I have been a business owner and in management. I also don't believe in trying to continue Freedom force without proper financial backing to acquire the rights from ghost fire? who was irrational games. On the one hand you are right, they won't just give the legal usage of said product, but would lease or sell, if approached through the proper channels, I.E. hire a professional writer( I have one on retainer) then have an attorney help edit the proposal and send it to ghost fire/irrational. I am currently trying to develop( with help from others) and acquire rights to an old Privateer press tabletop to convert to 3qtr top down RTS using unity and freedom force would be another I would love to do. The main thing is get an idea, get a team and if you don't have anything positive to add...don't take away through negativity, too much of that as it is. as far as content, that is easy when you have a TEAM of talent like this community has working together in a trusted and safe(as well as lucrative) environment, you need vision, leadership with legal and financial backing. By safe , I mean, you are all protected with a legal financial blanket. Financial part of the equation is the biggy and can be overcome through multiple avenues, I currently have proposed funding of my projects to a handful of financially independent individuals whom I have done business with and been employed by( I owned a small contracting business and was lucky enough to be introduced to some wealthy clients whom i have a continued friendship/acquaintance) in the past. Also, I have learned in my half century on the planet, to always keep a tight lip and keen eye on your dreams. Have a good day.

[Tomato]

Ok. So just real quick, wanna address the constant refrain of "theres enough talent in the community"

Maybe. If this were all of our full time jobs. Frankly, I'm dubious on that (I don't know any active animators, most meshes made are modified from the ff templates and not from scratch (Tommy and Vertex are the only ones I know that aren't), the only really active skinners use bases, etc) but even excluding that... we have lives. We have day jobs. We do not have the time necessary to devote to this without being paid for it, and what you're proposing would almost need to be funded by those same people.

Again, if I seem negative, it's because I've done all this before. We had someone working on a unity demo at one point. But passion only goes so far, and we're TWO DECADES from these games' heyday. The cold reality is there needs to funding, proper game designers (not us. Actual professionals) and a proper studio. Not jaded 30+ year Olds that are just tired.

[bearded]

Wow. Omega has a lot of confidence. Good for him. Good job, little fella.
Seriously though, I wish I had released the source of my demo. If I can reverse engineer it, I will do that. If anyone has it saved from then, I'll try if they send it to me.

[Deaths Jester]

OmegaPrime:  would lease or sell, if approached through the proper channels, I.E. hire a professional writer( I have one on retainer) then have an attorney help edit the proposal and send it to ghost fire/irrational. I am currently trying to develop( with help from others) and acquire rights to an old Privateer press tabletop to convert to 3qtr top down RTS using unity and freedom force would be another I would love to do.

You think someone hasn't already done tried that? They have and the answer was no. The owner wants to keep it all to themselves which is their perrogative. Second this isn't like acquiring right to a defunct tabletop rpg and converting it into a computer game...tabletoppers are more than okay to lease or sell rights to their game because they know they will make back some profit for something that often times cost them more to make than they got for it.  The computer game industry is very much a different beast - they enjoy keeping their rights and not leasing/sell them off because they can always use a character or such in another of their games and make more money off it.  True ghost fire isn't really making games at the moment, but the owner of the rights is a game dev who could easily make another game somewhere and use his characters there with no problem - it's like Marvel and DC in this regard - they can use their licensed character where ever they please to make as much money off them as possible. 

'mato is right in some regards, we all have lives and jobs away from here.  Thing is if this were a full time job, the artists and writers would still have to do some freelance work on the side to keep up their standards of living because game artists, writers, and programmers don't really get paid very well for the amount of work they do.  I can attest to that from the freelance work I've done in the industry - the contracts, even the full-time permanent ones don't make you the greatest of $ because only the really huge studios can afford to pay much of anything.  As for "the only really active skinners use bases"...yeah...those of us who made skins from scratch either retired, found would in the industry, or moved on to other stuff cause we got tired of some bs that happened over the years concerning the community - often times the lack of respect when it comes to using their skins and asking for permission for such stuff or concerning the rampant kittbashing of days gone by.

Pure and simple, we've seen this happen more than once over the years and we know how it ends...it's not negativity, it's more about tempering one's expectations and accepting that we've been there before and the reality is it's not going to happen/only bad things come out of pushing so hard and wasting energy on it.

[Borgaster]

Look, my life is divide in Agribusiness and Martial Arts. I don't have time inclusive for play games. Sometimes only for 15 or 20 minutes. But, create a company for make games for free is a thing that i have in my mind a long time. So, i have money a lot to make this and now is the time because i have good projects in my mind. But in the case of superheroes and old cartoons Freedom Force is the ideal game for make this like all creators that created amazing things to this game. I spent many years collecting characters but when i tried the mods i saw the magic that all Modders making. These mods put all games create by Marvel and Warner in the boots. But, after see what the Modern Marvel and Warner are doing i have my ideas and Freedom Force is the best game for make these things. No Mugen, no OpenBOR and maybe Unreal Engine. I don't live in the United States and if these two industries try something against me will regret. But, will be fan games and for free, so, i believe that they will stay in their corner.

[Deaths Jester]

Look, my life is divide in Agribusiness and Martial Arts. I don't have time inclusive for play games. Sometimes only for 15 or 20 minutes. But, create a company for make games for free is a thing that i have in my mind a long time. So, i have money a lot to make this and now is the time because i have good projects in my mind. But in the case of superheroes and old cartoons Freedom Force is the ideal game for make this like all creators that created amazing things to this game. I spent many years collecting characters but when i tried the mods i saw the magic that all Modders making. These mods put all games create by Marvel and Warner in the boots. But, after see what the Modern Marvel and Warner are doing i have my ideas and Freedom Force is the best game for make these things. No Mugen, no OpenBOR and maybe Unreal Engine. I don't live in the United States and if these two industries try something against me will regret. But, will be fan games and for free, so, i believe that they will stay in their corner.

You honestly appear to not understand  copyright laws are a worldwide thing or the fact that marvel and dc are international companies who would destroy a someone like you just to make an example to everyone or for fun of it. Best thing to do, Borgster, is to drop this pipe dream of hiring mod builders and make a small studio- cause that is what it is, a little pipe dream that will do nothing but bring a load of pain down on you and anyone you hire to create such a "studio". Marvel and dc aren't the idiots you think they are and they have enough of a legal team to make your life a living hell long before you get anywherebest idea is to learn how to mod the game yourself and do like the other mod builders - put out mods that way. If you want to keep up with the  hiring folks and challengin the comic companies idea though, go right ahead but can you please keep it to yourself and off this forum? Your wandering into a very gray zone concerning the rules here. Plus I think most of the members here would prefer to not have any possible legal splash back that your endeavor might cause. Most folks here prefer the community as it is - free of legal troubles.

[Tomato]

So I'm just going to add: This isn't just about you. You want to invite the ire of Disney, fine, go off and do that. But if you urine them off, they're not just coming after you, especially if you involve this community. YOU may live in a country which allows you to have more free reign on copyright law (though I will echo DJ that this is Disney and they will drag you to court somewhere based on you doing business in the US) *I* do not live in that country. *Alex* does not live in that country. *Benton* (who you claim to respect) does not live in that country. All 3 of us are actively hosting *illegal* content... it's free, it's fanart, but it's still technically using their characters to promote our work. And I, for one, will delete it ALL rather than risk being sued, as would most others.

The last time we got hit, it was because the Sims community (which we were connected to through the skindex) started selling sims skins. Marvel didn't want to have anything to do with that, so they sent out the lawyers, who did not stop with the ones charging people. Alex didn't have ANY Marvel skins on his site for YEARS because of that wave of C&Ds, which was a problem we all dealt with as he was the main host for a lot of C6's stuff. What you're proposing is directly competing with their projects, and daring them to challenge you over it. You started by complaining about the FFF sites being down (which was only for a few months while I worked out payments, and is in the process of being restored), if you bring Disney down on my head, they will stay gone, and I will scrub any of my contributions from the internet. I will *not* risk being sued.

So, speaking as a board Titan, if you want to challenge Disney/Discovery, you're free to do so... but please do not connect that project to this community or this forum. What you're proposing would do serious damage to this community, that could potentially never be undone.

[Deaths Jester]

...to add to what Tomato said, even if you don't charge people for the content, the fact that the modders you hire are making monetary value out of it is enough to make Disney/Warner Bros/whoever look at it harder and consider legal action of it.  Fan art has always been a grey area - cue Benton doing his best Twilight Zone intro - concerning artwork because of the potential for the license owners doing legal action against it no matter what country you are in. Different companies have gone after artists who profited from fan art across the world and only a handful of those artists have won the cases.  The companies don't always go after the artists but there is enough precedent to be extra careful when it comes to fan art and the talk about paying someone to create it in any form.

[Borgaster]

Lol, these companies against me? They are Puddles and i am the Pitbull. I don't remember to write that i will post my creations in this forum. I will create a big Website and show on the youtube for they see. Has a lot of guys on the Youtube in my country that make the same thing using Mugen, OpenBOR and Unreal Engine. Has an american that create a game called Crisis on Earth One for the Arrowverse(Crossover of the serie) and this game is on the Youtube like the Wind. And the total conversions that the guys make for Star Wars games ? What disney did against these guys? Nothing !

[Deaths Jester]

What it seems like is you are unwilling or unable to notice a major difference between what those folks did and what you are claiming to do. Those folk made those mods completely free - no money at anytime passed thru anyone's hands so it is TRUE fan art and the groups don't worry so much with it.

You want to say people to make mods which is completely different. As i have pointed out MULTIPLE times, the minute money changes hands - whether by sale or by commission (which is what you are talking about), the companies start saying a lot more attention. It is why we got c&ds when the sims stuff (which connected to usviac the old skindex site) started accepting money for their works. What you are suggest falls right into that category. I've said that multiple times during this whole thing and you seem to completely ignore it or don't read it...am not sure which.

Also unreal engine is not a bloody game, it is a graphics engine that you pay moneyto the owner of unreal to have a licenses to and have the ability  to use it. Unreal and unity are the big two and many studios pay good money to use them as their games graphics engine!! Saying otherwise shows how little you know about what goes on in the computer gaming industry or how half of anything is done...just the perfect setup to see this idea of your fail before it even starts.

You claim to respect the people of this community yet right now, your words and ideas say you don't care a thing about folks here and potentially having legal actions brought down on the community for your potential actions. That isn't respect by any means, just caring about getting what you want no matter what. Because right now, we are asking you not to talk about your pipe dream it at all here, not just release/announce it here. The more you flaunt your distaste and willingness to advocate and do something we have told you multiple times is an extremely questionable or def illegal actions, the larger chance someone from those companies - some former member work for them now and pop in some times - will pass the word up and bring potential legal troubles here.

[Tomato]

3. No posting or advocating illegal material or practices, including but not limited to warez, cracks, CD Key requests or links to sites or file sharing software with the intention of distributing copyrighted material.

I will say this one more time. Leave it alone. You want to pick fights with Disney, DO IT ELSEWHERE.

I am asking stumpy to lock this thread. Enough is enough.

[Omegaprime]

Ok. So just real quick, wanna address the constant refrain of "theres enough talent in the community"

Maybe. If this were all of our full time jobs. Frankly, I'm dubious on that (I don't know any active animators, most meshes made are modified from the ff templates and not from scratch (Tommy and Vertex are the only ones I know that aren't), the only really active skinners use bases, etc) but even excluding that... we have lives. We have day jobs. We do not have the time necessary to devote to this without being paid for it, and what you're proposing would almost need to be funded by those same people.

Again, if I seem negative, it's because I've done all this before. We had someone working on a unity demo at one point. But passion only goes so far, and we're TWO DECADES from these games' heyday. The cold reality is there needs to funding, proper game designers (not us. Actual professionals) and a proper studio. Not jaded 30+ year Olds that are just tired.

good points and great counter ideas arguments,now we are getting somewhere. Borgmaster aside, Tomato and Deathjester make very valid arguments and as I stated, don't use their dren/content, get funding before you do any work, make sure it's a closed work environment, have a definitive idea, direction, with a team. Also,lol, I'm not exactly a little fella Bearded and i'm cool with the condescension, but I'm probably old enough to be your dad and I have a 21 year old who talks to me like I know nothing all the time, but he's in college and working 2 jobs and on his own, so I always tell him he did a good job raising himself, lol.

[stumpy]

There is some interesting discussion in this thread, so I don't want to lock it. But, I am guessing that no one here is an IP lawyer and where the line between IP infringement and fan art or fair use is drawn can be complicated. Regardless of where the legal issues fall, let's not make FR a place for taunting the IP owners.

[Deaths Jester]

There is some interesting discussion in this thread, so I don't want to lock it. But, I am guessing that no one here is an IP lawyer and where the line between IP infringement and fan art or fair use is drawn can be complicated. Regardless of where the legal issues fall, let's not make FR a place for taunting the IP owners.

While i am not an ip lawyer, i have spent time studying it and fan art because of my artwork and career as a texture artist transitionin into a concept artist. I do know that right now fan art is considered a gray area that seems to be filed with legal explosion potentials in the art field. 

[bearded]

...

It's just that I've seen this talk before, in a Lot of different mediums. "I'm going to organize you guys, 'cause I'm teh idea man!11"
No disrespect meant (maybe a little), I didn't read everything you've said, I kind of started glazing over. Just a couple of points to you, and you don't mind.
1. You probably aren't going to get free work. Graphic design on all levels is very expensive. Personally, I have sold my talent, and I price about half what the market is. A lot of these guys are professional, if they have the time for your little project, I'm certain they are going to want proper compensation. I would. That said, you pay, I'll design anything you want. You have the time and money? I'll do the entire game myself. Truth. Even a "down payment" will get you a fully functional demo, with full source.
2. You come across as arrogant. If you have the backing and follow through, nobody is going to complain about that. But I'll tell you this, humbleness will save you money. I have a client that I draw coloring books for practically free, all based on his kindness and patience.
3. I'm cynical. Don't mind me. Good luck to you.

[bearded]

... Bearded ...

I am bearded. Big B is Beyonder.

[Borgaster]

Deaths Jester, Tomato and any other here, i only exposed my ideas and i don't need yours explanations, authorization because you guys don't know me in the several things that i am graduate and my knowledge in this area. So, again, i has the money, i has the team and the plan continues. Will be fan games for free and final point. Only Benton continue make mods for this game and i will create the mods that i want. Like Benton has your blog, like Alex has your Website i will have the mine. I knew guys that created things for this game that never appearead in this forum. I am grateful for many people here that they helped me when I needed but now is the moment to follow my own way.

[Deaths Jester]

As we said before, keep it off the forum. Plus, seeing as i am a skinner and folks sometimes politely ask to use my skins in their mods - because that is the smart thing to do - i am denying you and your questionable "team" any use of my skins or skopes in anything you are doing. Which means you can't use stuff you find in Benton's mod made by me or any other skin i have ever done. And if you think of littbashing anything i have done, understand that i will bring legal actions myself! You can dislike that all you want but i want nothing to do with your pipe dream and it's questionable legality. I have used my skins in the past in my portfolio is why you kittbash, will sue cause you are taking potential job possibilities from me by using my work as your own - that and i have a standing permission only on allowing kitting of my work.  I make a living in the game industry and want nothing of mine associated with your pipe dream so nixing the chance right now. I have a feeling a lot of other skinners are going to feel the same way esp seeing as-  if you supposedly respect the community like you keep telling us - you will probably need to ask their permissions first :same with the meshers and fx makers and map creators).

[Kommando]

Check out THIS THREAD HERE

Adventureverse is the ONLY project with similarities to Freedom Force which has had ANY progress. I have been following this, and there have not been any updates since about summer. If ANY project comes close to bringing back the experience of Freedom Force, it will likely be this one because in the last two decades, THIS is the ONLY project which actually has a working Demo.

If Freedom Force has a successor, than the team that takes on the project has to have the skills and the motivation to do it. Talk is cheap, you need to have some sort of ability to produce something on your own, without anyone's help. I'm not saying you have to code the thing yourself, but you have more leverage to motivate others if you yourself bring a skill set to the table.

If you are not bringing anything to the table, and not offering any skills that can move such a project forward, than this thread is just talk.

[Borgaster]

Deaths Jester, with all respect, or you are dumb or has jealous because i will make these projects. My team will create everything from the zero. I will use your creations? Lol, first i don't know nothing that you created and second everithing again will be created from the zero. I has the guys for make the skins, meshes, maps and the mods and all that was cretead here is to much old for my intentions. You talk in the name of the administrator of this forum and in the name of the other people. Go find a job and stop to write your stupidity thinks to me. You didn't understand anything until now or because you are dumb or because has jealous. Benton? Him wrote several times that your intention is that the others create your own mods too. So, this is that i will make. From the zero with my own ideas and materials. I wrote in a topic of Benton the idea that i have for an mod about Superman because your friend Modern Warner send my favorite character to the trash and will launch an fantastic game...Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League. Kill the Justice League? These guys have mental problems and obsession for Batman, Batman and Batman. I never read any comic about Suicide Squad when i was child and Batman for me ever was a secondary character on the DC Universe. Do you understand now or i will need draw?

[Tomato]

Deaths Jester, with all respect, or you are dumb or has jealous

Borgasster, the level to which you have absolutely misjudged this situation... *chef's kiss*

Your posts have been reported, you've been shown board rules, and you have been asked to take this conversation off the board. Please do so.

[Deaths Jester]

Deaths Jester, with all respect, or you are dumb or has jealous because i will make these projects. My team will create everything from the zero. I will use your creations? Lol, first i don't know nothing that you created and second everithing again will be created from the zero. I has the guys for make the skins, meshes, maps and the mods and all that was cretead here is to much old for my intentions. You talk in the name of the administrator of this forum and in the name of the other people. Go find a job and stop to write your stupidity thinks to me. You didn't understand anything until now or because you are dumb or because has jealous. Benton? Him wrote several times that your intention is that the others create your own mods too. So, this is that i will make. From the zero with my own ideas and materials. I wrote in a topic of Benton the idea that i have for an mod about Superman because your friend Modern Warner send my favorite character to the trash and will launch an fantastic game...Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League. Kill the Justice League? These guys have mental problems and obsession for Batman, Batman and Batman. I never read any comic about Suicide Squad when i was child and Batman for me ever was a secondary character on the DC Universe. Do you understand now or i will need draw?

Seems like the idiot here is you, mate. You say you love Benton's mod? Guess what, my skins are part of Benton's mods! He asked me to provide them for him. I have never asked anyone to make a mod for me nor would i. I think you have misjudged what Benton said and i don't trust your word to believe an ounce of what you claim he said. Jealousy? Why would someone whose textures have been used in games not entitled freedom force be jealous of a wasteful little lickspittle like yourself? Shows how much of a narcissistic flea you are.

Let me draw the truth for you: i denied you permission to use my work cause i don't want anythingt to do with you. You are the type of personwho uses works or hosts things without asking permission first. I don't want my works - all twenty years or so for freedom force and other games - used or ever associated with anything involving you so i publicly denied you access to them so when you do use them, i have proof i denied you to use them.

You claim to respect the creators yet here you are disrespecting every creator ever by claiming that everything is too old to use even though folks like deanJo, randomdays,and others create brand new content today. You honestly have no respect or idea about anything on this forum.

It is really interesting that up till now you said you just had someone willing to make mods for you but when someone mentioned you needed more than coders, you all of a studen have a whole studio. That just shows you have nothing at all. You want to be the next Elon Musk? You are doing a good job of it by alienating people, constantly changing what you are doing, not having a single idea what you are doing but claiming otherwise, and producing nothing but hot air.

You just want to feel like you are some superior answer to everything when you no absolutedy nothing. In fact, your stupidity is all that is showing cause you seem to have zero idea what we all are saying here or you are too dense to process it. If you listened, you would have realized what we are actually trying to get thru to you but i guess you only want to hear yesmen.

As tomato said, you've been warned beforehand and reported multiple times by folks. It would be smart to take your pipe dream and narcissistic attitude elsewhere.

[Randomdays]

Wow, guys. Just wow.

Until his last post, I didn't see the point to what he was saying. He loves the game. He loves the work Benton has been doing, he hates the modern age of comics. So why not just get his "experts" to learn the game system and make new mods.

When the game came out, I totally got the homage to Jack Kirby and others of the silver age. That and the bronze age were when I was reading. I love the retro look and feel of the game - heck - its even set in  the 60's. I had seen the concept art for the proposed updated sequel and it didn't seem half as appealing as the 1st two games in concept.

But now, the game is old and outdated. Instead of using a system that is already highly modable for just about ANY content - mods, sounds, maps, fxs, powers, characters, and that has had its bugs fixed in the most part, we're going to start from scratch.

We're going to do everything all over again, but better. It may take years, we may get sued, but one day, we'll get there.

It reminds me of other games I have made mods for, like NWN1 and 2. There were always people that had a great idea for a mod. All they needed were scripters, artists and everything else, but their name would be on top as "lead" or "project manager"

No one ever seemed to want to jump onto their projects.

It reminds me of the line the bartender gives you at the end of the night - "I don't care where you go, but you can't stay here."

[Tomato]

This will likely be my last actual post here, since I think I've made my opinion on this fairly clear and I don't want to escalate things more than they are. However, a few final points.

-DJ makes a solid point about the use of content. If any attempt to use my content is made on this venture (specifically Borgaster's venture, not necessarily ruling out any sequel project), this post will be my proof that I did not give permission for it, nor support it in any way. Any use of my meshes. skins, or any other FF content in this proposed project is being done illegally. And I will see to it that any other skinners/meshers whose work is used are also made aware, so I'd highly advise asking for permission for doing things *first*.

-I will still be monitoring this thread and elsewhere for any attempt at fundraising, via through gofundme, paypal, or any similar payment system. I'll be blunt, I think Borgaster is attempting to scam this community, which is why I have been so antagonistic. So any attempt made to illicit money will be monitored VERY closely. Not closing that door entirely, mind (I'd be a hypocrite given the situation with FFF) but attempts to do so will be heavily monitored.