Brown Costume Wolverine Skin for Podmark's Mesh

[RockLegend2]

Nevermind.

[Tomato]

Um... there are a few issues here.

First, it's not Podmark's mesh, since Podmark does not actually make meshes. The majority of the mesh is made by Renegade, but Pod combined it with some other pieces for his admittedly amazing "skope". Podmark actually has a list of which mesher created which piece in his readme. It's not a huge deal, but I'd hate for someone to come down on you for a misunderstanding.

Second, looking at this skin... it appears to be what we call a "kittbash" of Podmark's work, and that is a big nono 'round these parts. If you're confused as to what a "kittbash" is, I made a thread about them here.

I hate to be a jerk, but it's probably best that you remove the download link, rather then get in trouble. If you'd like, I or any of the other members here would be happy to help you get started.

[Podmark]

Hey RockLegend2,

First off if you haven't already make you read the Kitbashing post Tomato linked to:
http://freedomreborn.net/forums/index.php?topic=56536.0
If you have any questions please ask away.

Now there are two spots where you handled this wrong. The first being this:

I didn't have time to e-mail Podmark and ask for permission.

Always ask for permission first, especially before you put up the download.
I'm on basically every day so it really would have just cost you a day, or maybe just a few hours to hear back.

The other spot is that you mention you used my mesh (skope) but don't mention modifying the skin (textures). This might just be some term confusion, but it's always best to be upfront when modifying someone else's work.


And yeah as Tomato said it's not really a mesh, it's a skope, a cobbling of many talented mesher's work in order to achieve a specific Wolverine design. The annoying part is that I could swear someone else helped me with that skope, maybe MiguelYanke, Detourne_Me or Zuludelta but I didn't credit them and that's not like me so I don't know maybe I'm thinking of something else.


Now I'm okay with you keeping this up, I just ask that if you ever create such a skin again, be it from my work or any other artist, that you ask permission first and be up front about what you've done. Please remember that I don't speak for everyone and many skinners would be upset with their work being used like this.
I'd also like to encourage you to try your hand at skinning all on your own or from one of the many free to use bases available. We can always use more content creators around here.

[AfghanAnt]

Uhmmm I didn't see the content but I will say this is like the third time I've seen a newbie be discouraged from even showing content, let alone being encouraged to make more. Let's be honest, this is a decade old community with a dwindling number of active users and even more sparse content creators. If a new user wants to show off their first attempt at skinning we should embrace him, not discourage them with these are the rules.

Furthermore, these rules are ridiculous since they do not apply to every bit of content. I really wish more people would see that this isn't that serious, we aren't getting paid, and it is all to make a game we love more fun.  It is upsetting to see budding creators be immediately told what they are doing wrong and never encourage to grow beyond kitbashing.

RockLegend2, I'm sorry you felt like you had to take down your message so quickly. I would have loved to help you work on your skinning so you could feel confident one day to start from scratch.

[Cyber Burn]

Hey RockLegend, I'll admit that I'm usually one to come down pretty hard on people when it comes to respecting other people's work. But in regards to Kittbashing, I think most of us started from there. Yes I do agree that you should have contacted Pod before releasing your work, but had you previewed it first, and stated that you had modified Pod's existing textures, you probably would have received a different reaction to your initial post. Please don't let this discourage you from trying your hand at creating content. Like the others have said, feel free to ask questions, most are happy to help. Best of luck in your future endeavors, I do hope to see more.

[Tomato]

Honestly, I'm in the same boat as AA and Cyber on this one... You weren't doing anything wrong on purpose, and I feel bad for getting on you about something you clearly did not know. The fact that you took it down as quickly as you did shows real character, and I really do hope you'll try skinning again. Heck, If you'd like to put that Wolverine back up, I'm perfectly fine with you posting kittbashed work for critique (as Cyber said, it's where most of us started) so long as credit is given and it's not released, and we can help you develop your skills as a skinner.

[AfghanAnt]

I don't think we are in the same boat 'mato.

I spoke up because (knowingly or unknowingly) you used the "community rules" to bully a newbie into removing his post. There are a lot better ways to explain to someone "please give credit to the original artist" than list off rules and correct his terminology.

My point is he didn't do anything wrong, and he was immediately told how he was "breaking the rules". I don't think Legend taking down his screenshot had anything to do with real character; I think his feelings were hurt. My feelings would have been hurt if this was done to me years ago. He's new to the community and as always we have limited patience for new members – especially if they are trying to contribute and ESPECIALLY if English isn't their first language.

All RockLegend did was post a screenshot of an edited skin, this doesn't break any forum rules. If so, every users who posts pictures of kitbashed skins on skopes should get a handstrike for disobedience.

Furthermore, does no one see the silliness of raging over kitbashing, but never batting an eye at skoping? If he had posted a slight edit of a skope by Pod, this would not have been an issue-  and if he did something "amazingly skilled" as Windblown he would have been the new forum hero. Skoping and kitbashing are in essence the same thing - original content being edited to create something new. If skoping is accepted than kitbashing should be as well. It is all so silly the way people act, and I think it is from past experiences around here *cough* Similar 6 *cough*.

For the record, I owe everything I learned about skinning to Gryphon and C6 so kitbash the heck out of whatever you would like of my work and distribute wherever you want. If it keeps you interested in this community and FF I know my time wasn't wasted.

[spydermann93]

Would it be plausible to make a list of permissions for the use of skins for various creators much like the skoping/hexing permissions list?

I think that would be very beneficial and would clear up much of the confusion in regards to various members.

It would seem that everybody is either a) ok with what's going on, or b) trying to enforce the rules just so the creative rights of other members aren't violated.  Both noble, but they can each have their misunderstandings.

But that's just my suggestion, anyways.

[Podmark]

Hey RockLegend2 you really didn't need to take that down. If you're reading this please put it back up, I'm sure others would like to see what your work.


I'm going to apologize, I don't like to scare off newbies either, and I had a lot of trouble phrasing my post but I really was okay with your Wolverine. It was my work it was based on so I felt some responsibility to explain things.
I did a fair amount of kitbashing when I started and honestly I found it to be a valuable teaching tool. It got me to study other peoples work and see how they pulled things off.
Just respect peoples wishes and I'm sure things will be cool.

[ELECTR0]

Probably the best way to handle all this going forward, is to first say "Welcome to the community and Thanks for contributing". Then lightly express that they are breaking a few rules, but that it's cool since there new. So they don't have to get all worried and run away and can get a taste of what it's like to partake in contributing. Lastly and most importantly, point out that there are Base Skins to work from, so they don't think they have to draw all the muscles etc... by themselves before making the character they want. We all know these things since most of us have been hanging here since early 2K, but a newbie might not realize there are stepping stones like base skins etc... I still feel creators need to be credited though, so after the initial mess up or two it might be wise to run a PM past them to say there practices might get frowned upon and people might not respond to there post's. Over time if they really want to be apart of the community they will start playing ball the right way and if not then mostly likely they will fade away.

[Cyber Burn]

AA, I totally agree with you in regards to comparing kitbashing to skoping. I think that realistically, the only difference between the two is that meshers have agreed to give permission to use and alter their original work. Honestly, 99% of my skins were done using base skins by other creators. I have always stated that I am no artist, but I was fortunate enough to have a "Mentor" when I joined the community. Most members don't have that luxury. Thinking about all of this now, I've probably been a little to hard on others on this matter, and for that I do apologize.

In regards to skoping, I can almost guarantee that there are quite a few skopes that have been done using meshes by creators that have not given permission. Whether it's intentional or not, most of us are probably guilty of it. As far as Kitbashing, I'm guilty of previewing skopes using kitbashed skins. Even though I didn't release the skins with the skopes, I did still preview them.

For the record, I owe everything I learned about skinning to Gryphon and C6 so kitbash the heck out of whatever you would like of my work and distribute wherever you want. If it keeps you interested in this community and FF I know my time wasn't wasted.

I'm with AA on this one as well, I learned from others, and I used base skins created by others. My skins wouldn't exist without the work of others. That said, if someone can benefit from kitbashing one of my skins, go for it. If you want to use them as a learning tool, go for it. And if kitbashing one of my skins will help you release a new mesh or skope, by all means, go for it.

But as with skoping, I definitely believe credit should be given where it's due. If you kitbashed someone else's skin to make yours, absolutely give them credit for it. If you used someone else's mesh to make your skope, absolutely give them credit for it.

SHOW YOUR RESPECT AND APPRECIATION TO THE ORIGINAL CONTENT CREATOR.

And I will finish by stating that I 100% agree with Spyder, there is a permissions list for skoping meshes, maybe there should be one for kitbashing skins as well.

There's too few active content creators here, maybe something like this will allow others to start experimenting and releasing new content. I've always said this is a great community, the best I've ever belonged to, I consider it a privilege to be a member here, and I would like nothing more than to see the community continue to grow.

[Tomato]

So I've sent a few PMs to some people already, but for everyone else... I ask that you stop with this nonsense or, at the very least, move it either to another thread or to PMs. This "debate" does not belong here, and it never did.

Rocklegend, I am sincerely sorry that this whole mess happened. For what it is worth, I thought you did some decent work with that skin, and I feel really bad that I discouraged you as much as I did. I never intended to force you to remove the previews or prevent you from showing off your work, ONLY that you take down the mediafire link before you inadvertently got in trouble. I hope that neither my statements nor the rest of what is in this thread prevents you from trying again, because skinning is a very fun hobby and I really do hope you'll stick around to take part in it.

[AfghanAnt]

So I've sent a few PMs to some people already, but for everyone else... I ask that you stop with this nonsense or, at the very least, move it either to another thread or to PMs. This "debate" does not belong here, and it never did.

Again this is unnecessary.

We are having an open discussion about content usage. It should be encouraged if we ever want to stop having silly debates.

[Tomato]

I didn't say don't have the dialogue. But have it in ANOTHER THREAD, because THIS THREAD it for Rock Legend's skinwork. All you have done here is ensure that this kid will NEVER come back, because you have turned his thread into your personal soapbox.

[murs47]

Uhmmm I didn't see the content but I will say this is like the third time I've seen a newbie be discouraged from even showing content, let alone being encouraged to make more. Let's be honest, this is a decade old community with a dwindling number of active users and even more sparse content creators. If a new user wants to show off their first attempt at skinning we should embrace him, not discourage them with these are the rules.

Furthermore, these rules are ridiculous since they do not apply to every bit of content. I really wish more people would see that this isn't that serious, we aren't getting paid, and it is all to make a game we love more fun.  It is upsetting to see budding creators be immediately told what they are doing wrong and never encourage to grow beyond kitbashing.

RockLegend2, I'm sorry you felt like you had to take down your message so quickly. I would have loved to help you work on your skinning so you could feel confident one day to start from scratch.

This.

[RockLegend2]

I didn't say don't have the dialogue. But have it in ANOTHER THREAD, because THIS THREAD it for Rock Legend's skinwork. All you have done here is ensure that this kid will NEVER come back, because you have turned his thread into your personal soapbox.

Actually, Tomato, that rests solely on you.
Good day.

[Tomato]

If that is how you feel, I'm sorry. I'm truly sorry to everyone.

[schick]

Restrictions are restricting.
The rule should be all material everywhere is encouraged for everyone to use.

[Starman]

I don't think Tomato actually bullied anyone ... a new member posted a picture of a kittbash AND a download link for the work, AND hadn't contacted the person whose work he referenced. I doubt anyone would have said anything if it had just been a preview pic or permission had been asked. Tomato's response was uncharacteristically polite and to-the-point, too.

RockLegend2, your response made me smile. Seriously, dude...

[Cyber Burn]

I suggest we take the discussion here: http://freedomreborn.net/forums/index.php?topic=56756.0